Rugby Cup European Player of the Season shortlist

First topic message reminder :

Chris Ashton
Steffon Armitage
Jonny Wilkinson
Jacques Burger
Schalk Brits

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10796801/Chris-Ashtons-brilliant-form-for-Saracens-puts-him-on-the-shortlist-for-European-Player-of-the-Season.html

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

GunsGerms wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd prefer St Jonny's quiet, modest, unassuming personality to BOD's complacent, self-seeking, smug one any day.

Ha. Clearly mercenary is seen as a massive insult in England. At one point BOD was looking into joining Biarritz. If he had he probably would have been a mercenary too he didnt though thankfully.

If you believe the British press Jonny's Toulon revolves around around him. I say this in jest as I do like Wilko but also feel he fits the bill as a merc as much as any of the other B&I guys who have go to France while at the top of their game.

 
No its absolutely not. Its the definiation that we are disagreeing on.
 
Ive told you what i believe a mercenary to be....players like i liksted above...Former NZ rugby league players who swap code and play for England Union side on residency etc etc.
 
I dont believe there are a huge amount of monetary merceneries of European nationality. Probably because even in their own leagues like the AP's there are good wages.
 
Ive worked abroad...all over europe and as far as Singapore, and Australia.
 
I did it to sample new cultures, see new places...but under your definition im a mercenary!

What GG doesnt understand is that in a proper league (AP or top14) the standard of domestic competition is so fierce that you need a squad with plenty of people WHO DO NOT player for their country. Now that either means EQ retirees, foreign retirees, or foreign players who aren't playing for their country for quality or selection reasons.

In the Rabo, its easy to put out a second string side of second string irish players plus a few "mercs", and rest the central contracted players for HC and international matches.

what we have here, is a complete failure on GG's part to understand the difference between the demands of AP and top14 life.

and given the success of both, and the lack of commercial success of rabo, it's clear to me which is a more compelling competition and product.

Thats the thing Quins, your right...in the Mickey Mouse league that is the RABO when near enough ALL the teams qualify for the HC anyway...you could play your granny in a few of the games...and rest the top players purely for the HC.

Things are a changing in that regard though  

 

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You should have no problems with Saracens then considering the amount of quality English players they produce and give to the England team and their youth setup which is also flourishing.

Do you have a list of English players that have come through the Sarries academy?

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You should have no problems with Saracens then considering the amount of quality English players they produce and give to the England team and their youth setup which is also flourishing.

Do you have a list of English players that have come through the Sarries academy?

Nope. You could try google?

All 5 players on the shortlist could be defined as mercenaries. Doesn't make them any less effective players.

Even if they have just come for the paycheque (not something I agree with) they have earnt it.

It's Jonny's Toulon. He's the figurehead for the team. He's the one who gets all the headlines. If Toulon win the final I expect the plaudits will go to him even though I expect it will be the pack and ref who could be more instrumental.

S.Armitage - he's done very well for Toulon hence calls for an England recall.

As for the Sarries candidates - Burger is in there solely down to the semi final performance, harsh as it is. Part of a backrow subdued by Toulouse in the pool stages.

Brits had a tough/patchy start to the season but he's hitting red hot form at the right time. His nomination is based on the quarter final and semi final.

Ashton for me - he's been consistently good throughout the HC. Only blot was perhaps some poor missed tackles vs Toulouse away from home but he did score vs that match and was a handful vs Toulouse at Wembley despite that being the only match he did not score.

If Sarries win Ashton will be favourite,if he scores yet another try then I don't think anyone would begrudge him the award.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1-kyXAByyo

My favourite Ashton try was the one vs Zebre right at the end of the game.

Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

GunsGerms wrote:Clearly mercenary is seen as a massive insult in England.

You chose to use it as an insult - when describing the shortlist as an embarrassment.

lostinwales wrote:One man's merc is another man's marquee signing.

I do think the AP is a lot richer for the presence of many of the 'mercs'. The key thing is making sure there is a balance, there are plenty of quality EQ players getting game time and that there are opportunities for the products of thriving academies.

Right now the balance seems right, but needs careful watching.

(Maybe we should get a mod to rename this thread.)

The AP is a lot better than it used to be,the salary cap has ensured that however you only have to look at the Top 14 to see where your future lies.The rich English clubs are already looking to higher the cap and if more money comes in to the clubs from the new European Cup then they'll start competing with the French for the big SH players.This will ensure English players get left out of key positions like TH,9&10 and ultimately will weaken the English international team.If the English teams don't increase the cap and make these big signings they will remain fairly uncompetitive in Europe barring a the odd one off year like this one for Saracens.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Clearly mercenary is seen as a massive insult in England.

You chose to use it as an insult - when describing the shortlist as an embarrassment.

Whats embarassing is that there are no six nations players on the shortlist as six nations rugby is the pinnicle of NH rugby yet the club game is being suffocated by in influx of too many mercenaries IMO.

GunsGerms wrote:Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

Ok. Now you can see the English players in the 1st team that are available to England and also the ones that are established in the England side. You can also google the England U20s to see the players coming through. Your main concern was clubs not making enough players available for their country and this really can't be levelled at saracens.

GunsGerms wrote:Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

Of the matchday squad against Clermont, 4 came through the academy George, Wray, Farrell & goode - while Mako joined the Saracens academy from the Bristol one. Kruis and Fraser would probably have featured if not injured while Barrington and Streather came from lower leagues.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

lostinwales wrote:One man's merc is another man's marquee signing.

I do think the AP is a lot richer for the presence of many of the 'mercs'. The key thing is making sure there is a balance, there are plenty of quality EQ players getting game time and that there are opportunities for the products of thriving academies.

Right now the balance seems right, but needs careful watching.

(Maybe we should get a mod to rename this thread.)

The AP is a lot better than it used to be,the salary cap has ensured that however you only have to look at the Top 14 to see where your future lies.The rich English clubs are already looking to higher the cap and if more money comes in to the clubs from the new European Cup then they'll start competing with the French for the big SH players.This will ensure English players get left out of key positions like TH,9&10 and ultimately will weaken the English international team.If the English teams don't increase the cap and make these big signings they will remain fairly uncompetitive in Europe barring a the odd one off year like this one for Saracens.

Well we'll see. Maybe the fact the RABO teams actually have to be competitive in THEIR OWN league to qualify for the HC now will make them play their better players and not just resting them for the big HC games.....

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You should have no problems with Saracens then considering the amount of quality English players they produce and give to the England team and their youth setup which is also flourishing.

Do you have a list of English players that have come through the Sarries academy?

You have guys like Goode,Farrell,Wray,Kruis,George.


The current England U20s squad for the world cup have 4 - Maro Itoje,Biyi Alo,Nick Tompkins and Nathan Earle. Two others - Henry Taylor and Aaron Morris are joining Sarries next season.

Maro Itoje was captain in at least two of the 6 nations games and scored 4 or 5 tries I think - he's a lock.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

Ok. Now you can see the English players in the 1st team that are available to England and also the ones that are established in the England side. You can also google the England U20s to see the players coming through. Your main concern was clubs not making enough players available for their country and this really can't be levelled at saracens.

Seems you are unable to back up your claim. Maybe the Sarries youth system is flourishing as you say but I dont see much evidence of it. Happy to be proved wrong on that.

quinsforever wrote:What GG doesnt understand is that in a proper league (AP or top14) the standard of domestic competition is so fierce that you need a squad with plenty of people WHO DO NOT player for their country. Now that either means EQ retirees, foreign retirees, or foreign players who aren't playing for their country for quality or selection reasons.

In the Rabo, its easy to put out a second string side of second string irish players plus a few "mercs", and rest the central contracted players for HC and international matches.

what we have here, is a complete failure on GG's part to understand the difference between the demands of AP and top14 life.

and given the success of both, and the lack of commercial success of rabo, it's clear to me which is a more compelling competition and product.

The Irish sides don't rest players any more than the English do,we have a certain amount of minutes we're allowed give each player and we use them to the max.It's a condition the IRFU impose on the provinces and we still have 3 of the top sides in the league.Our squads are full of quality young Irish players and our acadamies are churning out more and better players each year.There will be 3 Irish sides in the European Cup for a long time to come and I'd be willing to lay odds that there will be Irish 4 teams in it before a season where there is only 2.

beshocked wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You should have no problems with Saracens then considering the amount of quality English players they produce and give to the England team and their youth setup which is also flourishing.

Do you have a list of English players that have come through the Sarries academy?

You have guys like Goode,Farrell,Wray,Kruis,George.


The current England U20s squad for the world cup have 4 - Maro Itoje,Biyi Alo,Nick Tompkins and Nathan Earle. Two others - Henry Taylor and Aaron Morris are joining Sarries next season.

Maro Itoje was captain in at least two of the 6 nations games and scored 4 or 5 tries I think - he's a lock.

Goode came from Bath and cambridge. You are probably right on the others but that really isnt a lot is it?

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

Ok. Now you can see the English players in the 1st team that are available to England and also the ones that are established in the England side. You can also google the England U20s to see the players coming through. Your main concern was clubs not making enough players available for their country and this really can't be levelled at saracens.

Seems you are unable to back up your claim. Maybe the Sarries youth system is flourishing as you say but I dont see much evidence of it. Happy to be proved wrong on that.

Well we all see what we want to see really.

It is worth putting in an honorable mention for Billy V also. He looked a prospect at Wasps but Saracens have brought him on to a whole new level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

lostinwales wrote:One man's merc is another man's marquee signing.

I do think the AP is a lot richer for the presence of many of the 'mercs'. The key thing is making sure there is a balance, there are plenty of quality EQ players getting game time and that there are opportunities for the products of thriving academies.

Right now the balance seems right, but needs careful watching.

(Maybe we should get a mod to rename this thread.)

The AP is a lot better than it used to be,the salary cap has ensured that however you only have to look at the Top 14 to see where your future lies.The rich English clubs are already looking to higher the cap and if more money comes in to the clubs from the new European Cup then they'll start competing with the French for the big SH players.This will ensure English players get left out of key positions like TH,9&10 and ultimately will weaken the English international team.If the English teams don't increase the cap and make these big signings they will remain fairly uncompetitive in Europe barring a the odd one off year like this one for Saracens.

Well we'll see. Maybe the fact the RABO teams actually have to be competitive in THEIR OWN league to qualify for the HC now will make them play their better players and not just resting them for the big HC games.....

This won't happen for the Irish sides,as I've mentioned in a post above the IRFU impose strict limits on the amount of time our international players are allowed to play.The provinces already use these players the maximum they're allowed to and unless the IRFU change their policy (which is extremely unlikely) then we will continue to rely on our younger players to see us through.This has the benefit of developing our young players at an accelerated rate and increasing our pool of Irish players,then when some of these young players break through and become internationals we get to use the guys they've displaced (experienced former internationals) a lot more to complement the next generation of young players.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

Ok. Now you can see the English players in the 1st team that are available to England and also the ones that are established in the England side. You can also google the England U20s to see the players coming through. Your main concern was clubs not making enough players available for their country and this really can't be levelled at saracens.

Seems you are unable to back up your claim. Maybe the Sarries youth system is flourishing as you say but I dont see much evidence of it. Happy to be proved wrong on that.

 
Most of the academies are actually flourishing now.
 
Even our Falcons one through the years, and becoming powerful again.
 
Over the years we have provided players like Johnny, Davy Wilson, Toby Flood, Gareth Archer, Dave Walder, Jaimie Noon, Michael Stephenson, Phil Dowson, Matt Tait in recent years and a host of new academy lads coming through again...with Scotland and Ireland likely to benefit also.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Im sure there are more but Farrell is the only one I can think of who came through the Sarries academy.

Ok. Now you can see the English players in the 1st team that are available to England and also the ones that are established in the England side. You can also google the England U20s to see the players coming through. Your main concern was clubs not making enough players available for their country and this really can't be levelled at saracens.

Seems you are unable to back up your claim. Maybe the Sarries youth system is flourishing as you say but I dont see much evidence of it. Happy to be proved wrong on that.

My claim of them producing England players? Was talking about Mako, Billy, George, Farrell, Wigglesworth, Barritt, Strettle, Goode, Ashton all available for England. A good youth setup also. Your main gripe was not having players on the shortlist and in the final who play for England. There's loads at Saracens. If you don't want to count people like Goode for his youth clubs you can't really count people like BOD for Leinster either considering his youth was spent playing for uni.

Gunsgerms you say Goode came from Bath and Cambridge. I don't see any evidence of Bath in any info about Goode. Cambridge sure.

He was part of the Saracens academy in 2006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEi4Ubx8cpI

England U20s in action vs the superior Irish players....  3 Sarries guys prominent. 2 scored tries and the other set one up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgV5fSGfQi4

Nathan Earle in action.

O'Driscoll was picked fairly soon after leaving school. Not sure that Leinster had much of an academy back then but he was certainly in it. He also played a lot for the Ireland underage sides too. I think he may have even played for Ireland before Leinster though the acadamy system is probably a little different now. Back then every player in Ireland had a club side and a provincial side not sure that that is still the case.

Surely the biggest mercenary at Sarries is McCall, polluting the heart and soul of their North London roots with his foreign ways?

Big problem throughout Europe with overseas coaches undermining the local community ethos of clubs, provinces, etc.

Dubbelyew L Overate 3 of our coaches are ex Sarries players plus Sarries have developed the world class coach Andy Farrell for England and the Lions   

Are chaps like Rob Henderson, Simon Geogeghan, the Easterby brothers, Eric Peters (blast from the past) & Tom Shanklin examples of mercenaries too.

They played for clubs in the land of their birth and where they were brought up... but not of the country they chose to represent via ancestral ties.... surely they on alligning themselves with such countries they should relocate to their adopted nation/part ancestral nation.

Perhaps even Andy Farrell, Chris Ashton and Jason Robinson are mercenaries.... they moved in part if not solely because of the wage offer.

GunsGerms wrote:O'Driscoll was picked fairly soon after leaving school. Not sure that Leinster had much of an academy back then but he was certainly in it. He also played a lot for the Ireland underage sides too. I think he may have even played for Ireland before Leinster though the acadamy system is probably a little different now. Back then every player in Ireland had a club side and a provincial side not sure that that is still the case.

There is still a club affiliation for all players capped by the provincial sides.

fa0019 wrote:Are chaps like Rob Henderson, Simon Geogeghan, the Easterby brothers, Eric Peters (blast from the past) & Tom Shanklin examples of mercenaries too.

They played for clubs in the land of their birth and where they were brought up... but not of the country they chose to represent via ancestral ties.... surely they on alligning themselves with such countries they should relocate to their adopted nation/part ancestral nation.

Perhaps even Andy Farrell, Chris Ashton and Jason Robinson are mercenaries.... they moved in part if not solely because of the wage offer.

Not really because playing for Ireland back then was clearly not for financial reasons. Geoghegan in particular despite being born in England has always considered himself Irish, the Easterbys presumably the same. Not sure about Hendo.

Geoghegan, Guy Easterby and henderson played for teams in Ireland at various points despite surely earning less money.

beshocked wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate 3 of our coaches are ex Sarries players plus Sarries have developed the world class coach Andy Farrell for England and the Lions   

Yes, but 2 of them are Northerners, as is Farrell, so they're mercenaries too.   

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

beshocked wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate 3 of our coaches are ex Sarries players plus Sarries have developed the world class coach Andy Farrell for England and the Lions   

Yes, but 2 of them are Northerners, as is Farrell, so they're mercenaries too.   

No we're known as savages from the North....

GunsGerms wrote:Geoghegan in particular despite being born in England has always considered himself Irish

As someone who knew him quite well as a younger man, I can assure you that any such feelings developed later in life.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

beshocked wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate 3 of our coaches are ex Sarries players plus Sarries have developed the world class coach Andy Farrell for England and the Lions   

Yes, but 2 of them are Northerners, as is Farrell, so they're mercenaries too.   

No we're known as savages from the North....

I can't imagine what would lead those Northern savages to ply their trade amongst the Southern softies if not the filthy lucre. Same for Borthwick, Ashton, Farrell jr, Tomkins, Hodgson, Spencer, Strettle, and Wigglesworth.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Geoghegan in particular despite being born in England has always considered himself Irish

As someone who knew him quite well as a younger man, I can assure you that any such feelings developed later in life.

Any idea why? Fair enough, though it is logical that the older you get the more you question where you are from and your identity and form your own ideas and beliefs.

Do you consider him a mercenary?

I wonder does Owen Farrell realise yet that both his parents are of Irish heritage.

So...who's going to be European Player of the Year?

A money grabbing bast*&d  

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Geoghegan in particular despite being born in England has always considered himself Irish

As someone who knew him quite well as a younger man, I can assure you that any such feelings developed later in life.

Any idea why? Fair enough, though it is logical that the older you get the more you question where you are from and your identity and form your own ideas and beliefs.

Do you consider him a mercenary?

I wonder does Owen Farrell realise yet that both his parents are of Irish heritage.

I do not consider him a mercenary - professionalism came at the end of his career. Ireland came calling when England were showing no interest - and after all his dad is indeed very Irish, so there is a clear family link there.

LondonTiger wrote:
I do not consider him a mercenary - professionalism came at the end of his career. Ireland came calling when England were showing no interest - and after all his dad is indeed very Irish, so there is a clear family link there.

So are you saying that he only played for Ireland because England werent interested? You sure about that?

I cant believe England werent interested in Simon Geoghegan.

A crackin player.

I'm sure people change their alligance from time to time especially those in families with split loyalities.

I've heard it from people who knew Josh Lewsey that he was literally Mr Wales growing up in similar conditions to that of Geoghegan.

To be honest in many situations I reckon half of the decision will be down to who makes the first sincere move.

Look at Aiden McGeady.... Scotland born, both parents were born in Scotland, 3 of his 4 grandparents were Scottish, 1 was Irish. Scotland wouldn't let players play for the Scotland schools side if they didn't play football for their school, Celtic youth wouldn't let their youths play for their school.

Ireland found out about it and drafted him straight in. In the end he had 1 offer. What was he supposed to do? Although even his Da has publicly said he would have preferred him to have played for Scotland. He was a standout at celtic and he knew the score, but the SFA didn't exactly shine themselves in glory.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I cant believe England werent interested in Simon Geoghegan.

A crackin player.

They had Rory Underwood at the time.

We were talking about this about a month ago but apparently he wasn't well liked... I mean even Geechs didn't choose him in 93... preferring even Richard Wallace, a countrymen and one of the worst lions ever to wear the jersey (at least in modern times).

Maybe that was a factor too.

fa0019 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I cant believe England werent interested in Simon Geoghegan.

A crackin player.

They had Rory Underwood at the time.

Yes but theres two wings...

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
I do not consider him a mercenary - professionalism came at the end of his career. Ireland came calling when England were showing no interest - and after all his dad is indeed very Irish, so there is a clear family link there.

So are you saying that he only played for Ireland because England werent interested? You sure about that?

I am saying that at he is not a mercenary because England were not interested in him at the time.

At 17/18, when he was representing Herts and England Schools he showed no interest in playing for Ireland. by the time he was 22 and Ireland came calling, England were on their way to becoming GS champions. I am not sure how much his outlook had changed in those 3 years or why he chose Ireland over England. That one country wanted him will have helped the decision.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
I do not consider him a mercenary - professionalism came at the end of his career. Ireland came calling when England were showing no interest - and after all his dad is indeed very Irish, so there is a clear family link there.

So are you saying that he only played for Ireland because England werent interested? You sure about that?

I am saying that at he is not a mercenary because England were not interested in him at the time.

At 17/18, when he was representing Herts and England Schools he showed no interest in playing for Ireland. by the time he was 22 and Ireland came calling, England were on their way to becoming GS champions. I am not sure how much his outlook had changed in those 3 years or why he chose Ireland over England. That one country wanted him will have helped the decision.

You are implying that he would have played for England if he had the choice? Is that what you believe?

Most of the SH players, like Maitland for example, that play for NH teams that are called mercenaries know they wont be picked by the nation they live in. Therefore, doesnt Geoghegan fit in that category for you? That seems to be what you are saying anyway.

No you are implying it.

Ireland offered him a cap, he has an Irish father and was playing for London Irish. Seems fair enough to me.

I have no idea if he would have chosen England had they come knocking - that they were not makes the decision easier to make.

Geoghegan was notoriously shy when it came to being interviewed. However, here is a link to an interview he gave where he claims that he never considered playing for anyone else:

'I have a great affinity with Ireland,' he said. 'I've spent a lot of time there. I've never thought of playing for anyone else.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-union--five-nations-focus-geoghegan-back-to-speed-tim-glover-talks-to-irelands-flying-machine-who-hopes-to-put-a-troubled-year-behind-him-and-stake-a-claim-for-a-share-of-the-lions-tour-1478935.html

You have to laugh at the opening line of the article:

He hates losing and he plays for Ireland, a team of losers, when he could have played for England? He must be Irish.

Isnt that just a gem of British journalism?

He's hardly likely to say

"Well England didn't want me so I decided on Ireland... I mean its better than nothing right???"

fa0019 wrote:He's hardly likely to say

"Well England didn't want me so I decided on Ireland... I mean its better than nothing right???"

How do you know England didnt want him?

Saying England did not want him may be too extreme - he was however not really on geoff Cooke's radar at that time.