Rugby Cup European Player of the Season shortlist

First topic message reminder :

Chris Ashton
Steffon Armitage
Jonny Wilkinson
Jacques Burger
Schalk Brits

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10796801/Chris-Ashtons-brilliant-form-for-Saracens-puts-him-on-the-shortlist-for-European-Player-of-the-Season.html

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

All professional rugby players are mercenaries. They get paid for doing something they should be honoured to do for free, hey guns?

Any player with an "agent" must by definition be mercenary. What about all those Irish players who claimed to be negotiations with french clubs in order to boost their contacts higher at home?

I have realised that GGs definition of mercenary is the narrowest I have ever seen. No point debating with someone so prejudiced.


Note I use prejudiced in the correct manner, not the perjorative one most commonly used.

The more guns rants on, the happier I become about the sarries Toulon final. Best teams in best leagues contesting the European final.

Here's to a bright new dawn in European rugby.

LondonTiger wrote:I would argue that Jonny Wilkinson is as far from a mercenary as you can get. He stayed loyal to a club at the possible detriment to his health. When they decided that really they no longer wanted him he refused to take the easy option of joining another English club out of loyalty to Falcons. He instead joined a club that was flirting with relegation and had seen a lot of mercenaries (people coming purely for the paycheck and not adding anything to the club) and set the standards that all other foreigh imports to Toulon have been asked to replicate. He has poured, his hear and sould, his efforts and perspiration into the club and they have moved beyond being merely a paycheck for retirees.

In fact I would not classify any of those as mercenaries. But GG has his own agenda and will keep pushing it. He will not be diverted, he will not enter in debate he will not concede one iota.

To your point about Jonny, he has embraced the language, and a lot of the culture of south France.  His interviews on French TV are of a pretty decent French.  He is cherished by the Toulon fans and highly valued by his club management.  If that is a merc, than so is anyone who leaves their home town club for a better option.  

I would argue we are mostly all mercs as well.  I left a few jobs in some places for more dough somewhere else.  I s'pose I am a merc, too.  But keep it secret - my soon to be erstwhile bosses in the army would not like that much. I agree that player movement is an increasing aspect of pro Rugby.

When they give out awards on 606V2 for derailing threads my guess is that GG could definitely be in the running.

lostinwales wrote:When they give out awards on 606V2 for derailing threads my guess is that GG could definitely be in the running.

You would probably be up there yourself.

The funny thing is and something you lot conveniently ignore is that I happly define Sexton as a mercenary too. I dont see too many people getting overly defensive over Sexton. Any reason?

I think the British media's love for Wilko has clouded people's judgement. How could the darling of England be a mercenary? Boo hoo sob sob. Its obvious how nice a person Wilko is but that doesnt change anything he went to France to a manufactured team for a big wage packet. He fits the bill, its as simple as that.

I know you all love him but get a grip.

So anyone not playing for their local club for a minimum wage is a merc in your eyes then Guns?

Sorry but re Wilkinson...
 
Maybe he actually enjoyed his lifestyle in Newcastle. Its actually a great place to live, he had a huge multimillion pound place up by Slaley Hall, played premiership rugby, international rugby etc.
 
In fact he was probably away with England more than he was with us.
 
And to class him as a MERCENARY!!!!! Im sorry but thats just utter F&*$ing Bo%"ks!!!!!!!
 
   

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry but re Wilkinson...
 
Maybe he actually enjoyed his lifestyle in Newcastle. Its actually a great place to live, he had a huge multimillion pound place up by Slaley Hall, played premiership rugby, international rugby etc.
 
In fact he was probably away with England more than he was with us.
 
And to class him as a MERCENARY!!!!! Im sorry but thats just utter F&*$ing Bo%"ks!!!!!!!
 
   

Of course it is, the sun shines out of his a$$ in England. Is there a ban on criticising Wilko in England or something?

Expect Ashton to get an England recall now as long as he stays fit. Hopefully he can bring his HC form to England.

Ashton has shown in the HC that he is a very good finisher. Sounds like on Saturday he even made a tackle or two too!

When Ashton is on form he's one of the best finishers in the business in my opinion.

Hopefully he's turned the corner now and will be back to scoring lots of tries for England too.

He's still a got a lot to prove for England but with his European performances against good wingers he's done well this season.

England really do need someone to step up on the wing, wingers have struggled under Lancaster for whatever reason.

I would say that if England do start Ashton they must utilise him effectively.

What's the definition of mercernary you're using Guns just so we're on the same page.

Beshocked, Ashton was excellent in all aspects on the weekend and he'll probably start the 2nd test unless something extraordinary happens in the 1st.

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry but re Wilkinson...
 
Maybe he actually enjoyed his lifestyle in Newcastle. Its actually a great place to live, he had a huge multimillion pound place up by Slaley Hall, played premiership rugby, international rugby etc.
 
In fact he was probably away with England more than he was with us.
 
And to class him as a MERCENARY!!!!! Im sorry but thats just utter F&*$ing Bo%"ks!!!!!!!
 
   

Of course it is, the sun shines out of his a$$ in England. Is there a ban on criticising Wilko in England or something?

Oh far from it!!!

But when you criticise a guy who showed HUGE loyalty to a small family style club with no ideas of challenging for the title, put his all into everything he did (even training christmas day) and who finally wants to sample a new culture, then your going to find some aggressive defence of that criticism.

For me pro rugby is what it is... professional. Players have a very short career and even the best are probably at the top for say 2-3 RWC cycles.

Nothing wrong with moving clubs for a big salary. If a test player say moved to a nothing club with no prospects to challenge or win any major trophies in the middle of Georgia say for a stupid salary funded by some oligarch then sure, mercenary.

But Sexton, Wilkinson, Giteau, North, Habana etc I'm sure in part moved because a) they want a new challenge and b) they want to move to a club with ambition to win things too..... as well as being financially rewarded.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Guys like Sexton were messed around by his home club, they didn't want to pay market rates and relied on him being unlikely to get a contract in any other club in his country and all his roots being in that one place.... and thought they could get him cheap.
He was literally pushed but he called their bluff and its probably cost Leinster.... with him I think we could have seen another couple of HC/ECC going their way, now... probably unlikely unless they manage to purchase/develop another player of his quality.
The fact that he got a big contract elsewhere is immaterial, what is a rugby player meant to do... allow themselves to be blackmailed by tight officials???

Anyhow, if thats how GG defines a mercenary sure. But for me no, club rugby is what it is, its a job nothing else... even in the old days the club you played for was usually down to what job you had. Bath for instance was successful not just because they had a wealth of talent in the region... they could recruit big time players like Ben Clarke by getting them a cushy, well paid job which allowed them lots of time off for rugby commitments and didn't interfere too much. They were renowned for it.

IMO, Mercenaries do exist in rugby... but in test rugby. They are players who play for foreign countries and for me anything from grandparent - residency. Not always the case but as a overall trend, yes. They do it because they want to experience test rugby and were not quite good enough in their home country. Often they go back home once their career is over.

Maybe the main reason he moved was for the weather and to be away the British media? The fact someone paid him a shed load was a bonus. He was on a fair wack at Newcastle and probably made a load more on sponsorship, endorsments, etc.

But this all comes down to what people define as mercenary. If he fits Guns' definition of mercenary then who gives a Poopie? In some defintions all [edit: pro) rugby players are mercenary. In some only those not playing for their local club. Any Irish players that have moved from their proper path (local club to province) are mercenary (e.g. Cronin, Boss, Cullen, Jennings). Who cares?

Wilkinson spent 4 years at Newcastle getting injured on and off. He spent 4 years of the media in Britain banging on and on about him. Newcastle let him go and he had the choice to move. If he went ANYWHERE he would be a mercenary according to Guns' definition as he had no ties to any other pro team in the World. But personally I have no problem with him doing that and certainly don't hold it against him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So anyone not playing for their local club for a minimum wage is a merc in your eyes then Guns?

What do you think a mercenary is?

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So anyone not playing for their local club for a minimum wage is a merc in your eyes then Guns?

What do you think a mercenary is?

Seeing as you're the one raising it think you should go first!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Oh far from it!!!

But when you criticise a guy who showed HUGE loyalty to a small family style club with no ideas of challenging for the title, put his all into everything he did (even training christmas day) and who finally wants to sample a new culture, then your going to find some aggressive defence of that criticism.

He is a lovely fella alright but it is curious how in British papers it is possible to read how Toulon are a team of mercenaries and how it is Jonny's Toulon in the same paragraph. There is a double standard.

IMO Wilko is as much a mercenary as Roberts, Sexton, North, Philips etc. They all left their country when at their peak or had a lot to offer back home. For me Wilko is no different. Sowee.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So anyone not playing for their local club for a minimum wage is a merc in your eyes then Guns?

What do you think a mercenary is?

Seeing as you're the one raising it think you should go first!

I have been over it already lots of times. Your turn.

Do you think Sexton is a mercenary?

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So anyone not playing for their local club for a minimum wage is a merc in your eyes then Guns?

What do you think a mercenary is?

Seeing as you're the one raising it think you should go first!

I have been over it already lots of times. Your turn.

It's just that you were shuffling so much over it I thought you'd want to definitively nail your colours to the mast. I'd go with someone who places money above all else. Doesn't really fit for Wilkinson who could have chased a lot more money earlier in his career and was dedicated to his clubs. Strictly speaking I think we could classify all professional sportsmen as mercs as they'll all go for the best deal for them and I certainly don't see it as a criticism (or certainly not without looking at specific details and individual cases).

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Oh far from it!!!

But when you criticise a guy who showed HUGE loyalty to a small family style club with no ideas of challenging for the title, put his all into everything he did (even training christmas day) and who finally wants to sample a new culture, then your going to find some aggressive defence of that criticism.

He is a lovely fella alright but it is curious how in British papers it is possible to read how Toulon are a team of mercenaries and how it is Jonny's Toulon in the same paragraph. There is a double standard.

IMO Wilko is as much a mercenary as Roberts, Sexton, North, Philips etc. They all left their country when at their peak or had a lot to offer back home. For me Wilko is no different. Sowee.

Ah think what you want. Cant be bothered arguing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Ah think what you want. Cant be bothered arguing.

Could you name a few guys from Europe you reckon are mercenaries or do you think there arent any?

Players like Flutey, Henry paul, Vainikolo,

Players who just switch nationality at the drop of a hat to play international rugby.

Those are mercenaries.

Kirchner as well GF.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Players like Flutey, Henry paul, Vainikolo,

Players who just switch nationality at the drop of a hat to play international rugby.

Those are mercenaries.

Are any of them from Europe?

Tom Denton, anyone who plays for money. The list is endless!

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Players like Flutey, Henry paul, Vainikolo,

Players who just switch nationality at the drop of a hat to play international rugby.

Those are mercenaries.

Are any of them from Europe?

Thats irrelevant where they're from?? You asked me to name who i thought were mercenaries...???

Id even say Sonny Bill is close to the line. Or maybe just a glory seeker, constantly swapping codes just in time for world cups etc.

Players who have no link what so ever to play for a country but choose to do so on residency grounds (which is a feckin joke of a rule)

OED definition of mercenary:

ADJECTIVE - Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics
NOUN - A person primarily motivated by personal gain


Now most players who have moved to france have multiple motives, and I would suggest it is rather simplistic to label them all mercenary. In fact for pretty much every name you throw up I could probably argue why it was not a mercenary action. Of course if you require a higher level of commitment from professional sportsmen than from yourself it is much easier.


It could be argued that Tom Heathcote, Steven Shingler, Tommy Allan have all all demonstrated mercenary traits in their shifts in nationality.

No I asked you to name some from Europe.

Gunsgerms most players would be defined as mercenaries these days. As fa0019 says it's part of the professional game.

It's the lack of Frenchman in the Toulon first XV which is the biggest problem. Just 4 vs Munster. Not sure how many on the bench but perhaps 2 or 3?

Compare that to Sarries who had 9 players who have played for England in the XV. 6 on the bench who are EQ too.

4 out of the 23 came out of the Saracens academy - Farrell,Goode,George and Wray.

Sarries can do better ourselves but this a fully EQ XV we could field if all players are fit

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Stevens
4.Borthwick
5.Kruis
6.Wray
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola

9.Wigglesworth
10.Farrell
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Tomkins
14.Ashton
15.Goode

That's either guys with England caps or Saxons representation bar Wray (those he's ex U20s and surely is knocking on the door for Saxons).

Sarries also have 20 NEQ players too. That's an awful lot, not including obviously the nationality switchers in the squad too like Stevens, Botha and Barritt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kirchner as well GF.

Whats wrong with Kirchner?

He's soon to be 30, probably on the last major contract of his career and had been at the bulls his entire career. Still plays for SA, was being pushed out the national side by Willie Le Roux though so his days were numbered... his stock was never going to be higher than when he signed his contract.

Not like he's unearthed an Irish granny now is it?

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kirchner as well GF.

Whats wrong with Kirchner?

He's soon to be 30, probably on the last major contract of his career and had been at the bulls his entire career. Still plays for SA, was being pushed out the national side by Willie Le Roux though so his days were numbered... his stock was never going to be higher than when he signed his contract.

Not like he's unearthed an Irish granny now is it?

Mercenary though. As I've said I don't consider it a criticism in most cases. These bloody professionals playing for money.

Anyhow, think I'd go for Ashton overall from the shortlist. Really impressive this season.

GunsGerms wrote:Sarries also have 20 NEQ players too.

Name them.

Gunsgerms it's a lot agreed but Sarries are contributing their fair share of England players to the England senior team,Saxons and U20s.

Dual nationalities are not a new thing these days are they? How do you judge someone who has a compelling case for playing for two internationals sides?

I think it's very much a grey area. Some players pick an international side because it's easier to get in the team. Some players pick an international side because it's a higher profile,stronger team.

Londontiger not sure Heathcote could be called a mercenary. He could be criticised for taking the arguably easier route into international rugby though. It's sort of backfired for him though now because Bath obviously didn't take the loyalty switch well.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sarries also have 20 NEQ players too.

Name them.

Schalk Brits Hooker South Africa
Jared Saunders Hooker South Africa
Petrus du Plessis Prop South Africa
Rhys Gill Prop Wales
James Johnston Prop Samoa
Alistair Hargreaves Lock South Africa
Eoin Sheriff Lock Ireland
Hayden Smith Lock United States
Kelly Brown Flanker Scotland
Jacques Burger Flanker Namibia
Nick Fenton-Wells Flanker South Africa
Justin Melck Flanker Germany
Ernst Joubert (vc) Number 8 South Africa
Takashi Kikutani Number 8 Japan
Neil de Kock Scrum-half South Africa
Marcelo Bosch Centre Argentina
Duncan Taylor Centre Scotland
Michael Tagicakibau Wing Fiji
Jack Wilson Wing New Zealand
Chris Wyles Fullback United States

Chris Wyles could play for England if he wasn't capped for USA. He's a perfect example of dual nationalty.

So could have Duncan Taylor.

I think Petrus,Joubert and Saunders are EQ due to residency rule.

Takashi Kikutani - I haven't seen him play.


Should really base it on the 41 in the senior squad.

25 EQ, 16 Non EQ.

http://www.saracens.com/senior-squad/

beshocked wrote:Chris Wyles could play for England if he wasn't capped for USA. He's a perfect example of dual nationalty.

So could have Duncan Taylor.

I think Petrus,Joubert and Saunders are EQ due to residency rule.

Takashi Kikutani - I haven't seen him play.

Oh well then that makes it so much better.

You get quite agitated about of this sort of stuff don't you?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You get quite agitated about of this sort of stuff don't you?

Try posting something rugby related rather than worring about what you think agitates me. I have my vision for European rugby you have yours.

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry but re Wilkinson...
 
Maybe he actually enjoyed his lifestyle in Newcastle. Its actually a great place to live, he had a huge multimillion pound place up by Slaley Hall, played premiership rugby, international rugby etc.
 
In fact he was probably away with England more than he was with us.
 
And to class him as a MERCENARY!!!!! Im sorry but thats just utter F&*$ing Bo%"ks!!!!!!!
 
   

Of course it is, the sun shines out of his a$$ in England. Is there a ban on criticising Wilko in England or something?

I'd prefer St Jonny's quiet, modest, unassuming personality to BOD's complacent, self-seeking, smug one any day.

There's no 'I' in Jonny's team, but plenty of 'me' in BODs.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd prefer St Jonny's quiet, modest, unassuming personality to BOD's complacent, self-seeking, smug one any day.

Ha. Clearly mercenary is seen as a massive insult in England. At one point BOD was looking into joining Biarritz. If he had he probably would have been a mercenary too he didnt though thankfully.

If you believe the British press Jonny's Toulon revolves around around him. I say this in jest as I do like Wilko but also feel he fits the bill as a merc as much as any of the other B&I guys who have go to France while at the top of their game.

It's a European Player of the Season shortlist article so I thought we were going freestyle Guns? Your vision of Europe looks to be long gone tbf. Even Leinster have mercenaries, bar BOD of course who plays for free!

Gunsgerms well it's not 20. If you take out those players. Too many? Probably.

I would prefer to see more EQ players but it could be worse.

The problem with having too many EQ players in your squad is that the best get taken by England and demand a higher salary.

Former England internationals like Borthwick,Hodgson,Wigglesworth and Strettle are so valuable because they are available all of the season if fit.

Toulon sign all these players like Armitage,Wilkinson etc because they are available all season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a European Player of the Season shortlist article so I thought we were going freestyle Guns? Your vision of Europe looks to be long gone tbf. Even Leinster have mercenaries, bar BOD of course who plays for free!

I think its quite sad that there are no six nations players on the list and relatively few six nations players will feature in the final. My vision for Euro rugby has always been with NH International rugby in mind because that is whats most important to me and always will be.

I have no problem with diversity and diversity in Irish teams but believe there should be a cap on it not because I dislike foreigners as some like to hint but because it is a much more sustainable model to focus on developing local talent and in keeping with what I feel is the spirit of sport. Sport being quite community centered in Ireland.

Trouble with mercenaries, is they are prepared to sell their souls for money.

Many mercenary soldiers have been known to have used both guns and germs in their armouries.

One man's merc is another man's marquee signing.

I do think the AP is a lot richer for the presence of many of the 'mercs'. The key thing is making sure there is a balance, there are plenty of quality EQ players getting game time and that there are opportunities for the products of thriving academies.

Right now the balance seems right, but needs careful watching.

(Maybe we should get a mod to rename this thread.)

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a European Player of the Season shortlist article so I thought we were going freestyle Guns? Your vision of Europe looks to be long gone tbf. Even Leinster have mercenaries, bar BOD of course who plays for free!

I think its quite sad that there are no six nations players on the list and relatively few six nations players will feature in the final. My vision for Euro rugby has always been with NH International rugby in mind because that is whats most important to me and always will be.

I have no problem with diversity and diversity in Irish teams but believe there should be a cap on it not because I dislike foreigners as some like to hint but because it is a much more sustainable model to focus on developing local talent and in keeping with what I feel is the spirit of sport. Sport being quite community centered in Ireland.

You should have no problems with Saracens then considering the amount of quality English players they produce and give to the England team and their youth setup which is also flourishing.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You get quite agitated about of this sort of stuff don't you?

Try posting something rugby related rather than worring about what you think agitates me. I have my vision for European rugby you have yours.

shame for you that your vision for European Rugby is so far from reality.

It is very much a club competition, not some kind of quasi-international willy-waggling competition.

that's also why your definition of mercenary is so off base and out of kilter with reality. because you dont care about the club competition, all you care about is the international game, and ignoring tax breaks for irish players is a convenient way for you to pretend the irish players dont care about the money which is why they stayat the Provinces.

Guns, you were very insistent that Wilkinson was a mercenary because he gave up his international ambitions for money. After being told several times he didn't, the penny appears to have dropped and you haven't repeated that claim.

Meanwhile, you happily have Sexton down as a mercenary even though you know he still plays international rugby.

Consequently, although you made a big song and dance about it initially, it doesn't matter to you at all whether a player is available for his country.

I think when you've finally finished moving your goalposts, it would be helpful to have your definition of a mercenary rather than just a random list of players who have given you the hump.

It's been put to you that you believe anyone not playing for his local club must be a mercenary. I'd be surprised if that's your stance but you haven't denied it or offered up an alternative definition.