The Four Horsemen: Welterweight Legends Who Would Have Beaten Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Great piece of writing here:

http://thecruelestsport.com/2014/05/07/four-horsemen-welterweight-legends-beaten-floyd-mayweather-jr/

"Trying to compare eras is relatively futile, since contemporary boxing bears only a slight resemblance to the sport of 60-80 years ago. Until about the early 1970s, generally speaking, there were only 8-10 accepted weight classes and one champion per division. There were also three or four times as many professional fighters practicing the Sweet Science, which made competition both plentiful and fierce. Most important, perhaps, is the fact that premium cable channels did not exist; fighters had to appeal to the sporting masses to make a living. They did that, for the most part, by fighting the best competition available. When the only way a fighter—and a promoter, for that matter—could prosper was by attracting an audience, the matchups were invariably better. Even during the closed-circuit era—roughly from the early 1950s to the late 1980s—the production costs were so daunting that promoters could risk only putting the biggest attractions together. If an event failed, the promoter faced financial ruin."

Duran beats THIS version of Mayweather, not 100% sure he beats the Mayweather that hammered Jmm or Mosley. Just because Floyd has one bad night in about 13 years since Castillo everybody is running him down.

Tell you what, if Jmm can knock out Manny I dread to think how Manny would get on against Duran, now that would be a slaughter.

Back to the article I agree that Floyd could not beat Hearns or Leonard at the weight. They were monsters at Welterweight and Floyd started as super Feather. Obviously SRR is the greatest ever so he would win.

AdamT wrote:Duran beats THIS version of Mayweather, not 100% sure he beats the Mayweather that hammered Jmm or Mosley. Just because Floyd has one bad night in about 13 years since Castillo everybody is running him down.

Tell you what, if Jmm can knock out Manny I dread to think how Manny would get on against Duran, now that would be a slaughter.

Back to the article I agree that Floyd could not beat Hearns or Leonard at the weight. They were monsters at Welterweight and Floyd started as super Feather. Obviously SRR is the greatest ever so he would win.

The article was written six months ago (it isn't a knee-jerk reaction to the Maidana fight).

hazharrison wrote:The article was written six months ago (it isn't a knee-jerk reaction to the Maidana fight).

It has a 7th May date and references to the Maidana fight and his 46-0 record. Which I see you skipped to quote the second paragraph.

Duran loses to Benitez but beats Mayweather..ok

Curry and Starling for me too...beat him..

Have to remember FMJ was a 130 pounder so losing to these guys is hardly going to hurt his legacy

Go easy on the anti-Mayweather stuff..Mate..

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:Duran beats THIS version of Mayweather, not 100% sure he beats the Mayweather that hammered Jmm or Mosley. Just because Floyd has one bad night in about 13 years since Castillo everybody is running him down.

Tell you what, if Jmm can knock out Manny I dread to think how Manny would get on against Duran, now that would be a slaughter.

Back to the article I agree that Floyd could not beat Hearns or Leonard at the weight. They were monsters at Welterweight and Floyd started as super Feather. Obviously SRR is the greatest ever so he would win.

The article was written six months ago (it isn't a knee-jerk reaction to the Maidana fight).

My bad, didn't realise. To be fair Manny and Mayweather didnt start out as Welterweights (or Duran). How would Leonard and Hearns do at super Middle, vs RJJ, James Toney, Joe Calzaghe and Andre Ward?

Be curious to here everyone opinions on this

Mayweather schools Duran all day long...

But think about it Adam...

If FMJ 130 -147 is facing four horsemen at welter.........

Let's do a horsemen that beat Hagler at light heavy...160- 175 = 2 pounds less.. 

Foster, Spinks, Tunney, Hill, Matthew Saad, Galindez, Ward, Jones jr, Hopkins, Charles, Moore, = That's 11 off the top of my head...

Great article though..........   

Jones Jr Would Kill Hearns and Leonard on the same night at super Middle

Truss I don't think Hagler would beat RJJ at middleweight never mind him moving to Light heavy!

AdamT wrote:Truss I don't think Hagler would beat RJJ at middleweight never mind him moving to Light heavy!

The Op tends to forget Mayweather is 37 and that he won his first title at 130.......

Just reminding him Adam...........I mean When someone calls Mayweather top 10 nonsense on the basis of a 37 year old winning a fight awkwardly against a guy who like it or not is an alphabet champion..

You kind of know where he is coming from........don't you ??

Scottrf wrote:

hazharrison wrote:The article was written six months ago (it isn't a knee-jerk reaction to the Maidana fight).

It has a 7th May date and references to the Maidana fight and his 46-0 record. Which I see you skipped to quote the second paragraph.

It was published on 7th May and references the Maidana fight as that's what makes the article relevant. The original was submitted to Grantland 6 months back for inclusion with another piece.

Haz it is an interesting piece and most sane people wouldn't pick the smaller and now older version of Floyd to beat them guys at welterweight (other than Duran). Honest question how do you think Leonard or Hearns would fair against RJJ at Super Middle??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

AdamT wrote:Truss I don't think Hagler would beat RJJ at middleweight never mind him moving to Light heavy!

The Op tends to forget Mayweather is 37 and that he won his first title at 130.......

Just reminding him Adam...........I mean When someone calls Mayweather top 10 nonsense on the basis of a 37 year old winning a fight awkwardly against a guy who like it or not is an alphabet champion..

You kind of know where he is coming from........don't you ??

I don't forget those facts Truss. Not unless I'm unknowingly suffering from Alzheimers.

Duran would have been far too much for Mayweather -- he wouldn't have stood around wondering how to land like the likes of Guerrero and Ortiz.

AdamT wrote:Haz it is an interesting piece and most sane people wouldn't pick the smaller and now older version of Floyd to beat them guys at welterweight (other than Duran). Honest question how do you think Leonard or Hearns would fair against RJJ at Super Middle??

Hearns and Leonard were past it by the time they made 168. Jones would have been far too good for them.

Different scenario to Mayweather at 147. While he was truly at his best as a junior lightweight, he's been a welterweight for the lion's share of his career (and pre-Maidana, was coming off a win over Alvarez -- who some feel is the second coming -- at 150 lbs).

Love this:

"Like Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, Charles Mingus, and Dizzy Gillespie, Ray Robinson was a genius. No other fighter in history had the hepcat steps Sugar Ray practiced in the ring. With the kind of improvisatory moves only a virtuoso could perform, Robinson left dozens of world-class operators cross-eyed and kicking up resin. A late modernist masterpiece, Robinson was so smooth he belonged on the cover of a Blue Note LP designed by Reid Miles. But Robinson knew what risk was in the ring. Like a smoke jumper, he dropped into one roped hot spot after another. He spotted Jake LaMotta 16 pounds in 1943 and fought him again only three weeks later. He swapped punches with, among others, Kid Gavilan, Randy Turpin, Jose Basora, Henry Armstrong, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio, Rocky Graziano, and poor “Bobo” Olson, whom Robinson whipped as often and as casually as he pleased."

Haz I do see were you are coming from. Though I don't fully agree with what you are saying regarding Mayweather, it is obvious you know more than I and I quite enjoy debating this with you.

And this:
 
"With his kilowatt smile, his killer instinct, and his Lieutenant Colonel Kilgore attitude toward risk, Sugar Ray Leonard made good on all the headlines that proclaimed him heir apparent to Muhammad Ali in the late 1970s. Not only did Leonard flash some of the fastest hands ever seen in a ring, but he also had power to spare, and he was versatile enough to master any style. Trailing on all cards against Thomas Hearns halfway through their epic 1981 fight, Leonard switched to brawler, pushing himself to the limit before scoring a late TKO against one of the most feared fighters of his era.
 
If the 1980s were the Age of Go For It, as Ron Powers once referred to them, then Leonard was the boxing embodiment of that sensibility. In less than two years, Leonard faced Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns, and Roberto Duran (twice). Leonard could have made millions fighting Davey Green and Bruce Finch types, but his ego demanded more than just riches. In fact, Leonard was the antithesis of the circumspect Mayweather, whose career was subsidized by HBO for years."

AdamT wrote:Haz I do see were you are coming from. Though I don't fully agree with what you are saying regarding Mayweather, it is obvious you know more than I and I quite enjoy debating this with you.

You're not alone. Sometimes it feels as though it's me and Trussman against the world....

I dunno about knowing more -- possibly just been watching it longer (hence the fact I'm a hunched up curmudgeon).

I have been followng boxing since early 90s. My first real boxing memory was me and my big brothers watching Tyson get beat by douglas. I can just remember the shock in the house after. I was only 6 at the time but I remember it like yesterday.

I wish I was my Dad. He has been watching boxing since the 60s. Great time to start. His favourite fighter is Ali (though he reckons duran is the best p4p from his time watching boxing). He thinks that Duran is unbeatable at his prime as a lightweight.

Still can't work out how Duran can't get to Benitez in 15 but gets to Floyd over 12.....

You might say that it was at 154.........But with weigh ins.. the day before these days and not the same day as in Benitez-Duran...Duran would probably be hitting a 154 pounder anyway !!

Sure Duran sneaked a brawling Leonard..........But as the rematch shows you box the guy at a high level he struggles..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Still can't work out how Duran can't get to Benitez in 15 but gets to Floyd over 12.....

You might say that it was at 154.........But with weigh ins.. the day before these days and not the same day as in Benitez-Duran...Duran would probably be hitting a 154 pounder anyway !!

Sure Duran sneaked a brawling Leonard..........But as the rematch shows you box the guy at a high level he struggles..

I debate about Duran with my dad all the time about Duran. I always say Mayweather would box his ears off he just laughs at me and tells me im living in a dream world. Duran was at his best as a lightweight though and to be fair he still did beat Leonard once, no matter what happened in the rematch.

Duran struggled with Dejesus at lightweight and though he is rightly considered a great lightweight......He beat mainly quite good types but nothing special fighters like Viruet......

Watch him against Hearns trying to fight a guy with a six inch inch height advantage and the best jab in Boxing from the outside......and you kind of realise Einstein he wasn't.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Duran struggled with Dejesus at lightweight and though he is rightly considered a great lightweight......He beat mainly quite good types but nothing special fighters like Viruet......

Watch him against Hearns trying to fight a guy with a six inch inch height advantage and the best jab in Boxing from the outside......and you kind of realise Einstein he wasn't.....

Rolled like a drunk   

AdamT wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Duran struggled with Dejesus at lightweight and though he is rightly considered a great lightweight......He beat mainly quite good types but nothing special fighters like Viruet......

Watch him against Hearns trying to fight a guy with a six inch inch height advantage and the best jab in Boxing from the outside......and you kind of realise Einstein he wasn't.....

Rolled like a drunk   

You're learning fast kid !!   

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Duran loses to Benitez but beats Mayweather..ok

Curry and Starling for me too...beat him..

Have to remember FMJ was a 130 pounder so losing to these guys is hardly going to hurt his legacy

Go easy on the anti-Mayweather stuff..Mate..

Mayweather said last weekend that he has been fighting at welter weight for 10 years. He grew into being a welter a long time ago. Manny was a flyweight.

The Duran that beat Leonard would maul Mayweather. Have you ever seen the fight?

He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

Strongy you wrote that Louis - Schmelling 2 was Louis defining fight.......

Schmelling was 8-3-1 in his last 12 outings........Losing to Sharkey and Baer and drawing with a no mark..

Hardly worth taking you seriously Is it......

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

Yes he would,

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Strongy you wrote that Louis - Schmelling 2 was Louis defining fight.......

Schmelling was 8-3-1 in his last 12 outings........Losing to Sharkey and Baer and drawing with a no mark..

Hardly worth taking you seriously Is it......

I don't recall saying Louis v Smelling II was his defining fight.

You're just plucking things out of the air.........you've no credibility.

Strongback wrote:

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

Yes he would,

Guess we will never find out. The only problem I have with Mayweather is the fact he hasn't fought Manny. I blame both camps for this. Still, even without Manny I think Mayweather is the greatest boxer of the era hands down for me.

AdamT wrote:I have been followng boxing since early 90s. My first real boxing memory was me and my big brothers watching Tyson get beat by douglas. I can just remember the shock in the house after. I was only 6 at the time but I remember it like yesterday.

I wish I was my Dad. He has been watching boxing since the 60s. Great time to start. His favourite fighter is Ali (though he reckons duran is the best p4p from his time watching boxing). He thinks that Duran is unbeatable at his prime as a lightweight.

I can remember the local video shop sold copies of the Tyson-Douglas fight -- seems mad now!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Still can't work out how Duran can't get to Benitez in 15 but gets to Floyd over 12.....

You might say that it was at 154.........But with weigh ins.. the day before these days and not the same day as in Benitez-Duran...Duran would probably be hitting a 154 pounder anyway !!

Sure Duran sneaked a brawling Leonard..........But as the rematch shows you box the guy at a high level he struggles..

"A nearly unstoppable combination of wile and ferocity, Roberto Duran turned pro in Panama at 15 and embarked on a reign of terror that lasted nearly a decade. It began when he mauled stylish Ken Buchanan for the world title in 1972 and ended with his notorious tank job against Sugar Ray Leonard in 1980. But for eight years Duran reminded bitter stogie-chewing old-timers of glory days gone by. Notable for a mean streak whose existence had nothing to do with Twitter or TMZ, Duran was a pressure fighter from hell. But what separated him from other run-of-the-mill aggressors was a superb defense, one predicated on angles precise as those drawn up in AutoCAD. Only gifted Esteban De Jesus, who handed Duran his first “L” in 1972, troubled “Hands of Stone” in his prime. And Duran twice avenged his loss to De Jesus in subsequent years.

After 12 title defenses of his lightweight title, Duran rose to welter, where he took a few stopgap fights (including one against future Hall of Famer Carlos Palomino!) before ripping the welterweight title from Olympic loverboy Sugar Ray Leonard in Montréal. Leonard won the infamous “No Mas” rematch at the Superdome when Duran decided training was not nearly as important as mirror balls and arroz con pollo. Overweight by dozens of pounds in camp, Duran gobbled diuretics during preparation as if they were Baby Ruths.

Against Mayweather, Duran would charge out at the opening bell looking to land ripping hooks and uppercuts in close, counter rights from the outside, and thudding elbows from wherever he could launch them. Duran would not give Mayweather time to set up his leisurely offense, and the lauded defense that worked so well against Robert Guerrero and Henry Bruseles would splinter into shards after 20 minutes under the hot lights against Duran."

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

To be fair, Duran was an entirely different proposition to a plumped up super feather (in Marquez) and a shot fighter (in Mosley).

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

To be fair, Duran was an entirely different proposition to a plumped up super feather (in Marquez) and a shot fighter (in Mosley).

Yeah I can't argue that. I still think that version of Floyd might of been to sharp for Duran. though Duran had great skills of his own and was a bit of an animal. I would need to go back and watch more Duran fights to remind myself how good he was at lightweight.

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

To be fair, Duran was an entirely different proposition to a plumped up super feather (in Marquez) and a shot fighter (in Mosley).

Duran was a plumped up lightweight from an age whether they didn't boil down much to make weight. He's the same height as Marquez, with a smaller reach.

AdamT wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

To be fair, Duran was an entirely different proposition to a plumped up super feather (in Marquez) and a shot fighter (in Mosley).

Yeah I can't argue that. I still think that version of Floyd might of been to sharp for Duran. though Duran had great skills of his own and was a bit of an animal. I would need to go back and watch more Duran fights to remind myself how good he was at lightweight.

Check out DeJesus 3 and Leonard 1.

Scottrf wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:He wouldn't Maul the version of Floyd that destroyed JMM or shane Mosely imo of course.

To be fair, Duran was an entirely different proposition to a plumped up super feather (in Marquez) and a shot fighter (in Mosley).

Duran was a plumped up lightweight from an age whether they didn't boil down much to make weight. He's the same height as Marquez, with a smaller reach.

Duran pushed Marvin Hagler to the limit. He was big enough.

Marquez pushed Pacquiao to the limit (and further). He was big enough.

I seen Leonard 1 and 2. Also seen de jesus vs Duran. Just some of his other lightweight fights I would need to see again.

Scottrf wrote:Marquez pushed Pacquiao to the limit (and further). He was big enough.

Another blown up super feather? You got me.

hazharrison wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Marquez pushed Pacquiao to the limit (and further). He was big enough.

Another blown up super feather? You got me.

So is Floyd then, so why are you trying to put him against Duran?

And why were you calling for Floyd to fight a blown up SFW?

Don't try to use logic..

Benitez was class. His career didnt pan out as a successful as Mayweathers but at his best he could well have a better welterweight than Mayweather. Duran could lose to Benitez and still beat Mayweather.

Scottrf wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Marquez pushed Pacquiao to the limit (and further). He was big enough.

Another blown up super feather? You got me.

So is Floyd then, so why are you trying to put him against Duran?

And why were you calling for Floyd to fight a blown up SFW?

 
Floyd was a skinny kid when he fought at super feather (24). Pacquiao and Marquez were fully grown men (29 and 34 respectively).
 
I'm not calling for Floyd to face Pacquiao -- fight means nothing now. When they were the two premier welterweights (and the two best fighters in the world) it meant something.

I agree dont really care for Mayweather and Pacquaio now. It would probably still break records but It isn't near as big when they both looked invincible a few years back

hazharrison wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Marquez pushed Pacquiao to the limit (and further). He was big enough.

Another blown up super feather? You got me.

So is Floyd then, so why are you trying to put him against Duran?

And why were you calling for Floyd to fight a blown up SFW?

 
Floyd was a skinny kid when he fought at super feather (24). Pacquiao and Marquez were fully grown men (29 and 34 respectively).
 
I'm not calling for Floyd to face Pacquiao -- fight means nothing now. When they were the two premier welterweights (and the two best fighters in the world) it meant something.

24 when he had his last fight at 130...........and he was probably at light till he was 27..

Just stop it.......

He was at 140 when he was 27. 147 when he was 28.

Pacquiao and Marquez were at super feather and featherweight (respectively) when they were the same age.

Some advice just go on the JA606 boxing site and see how hatred of Floyd can turn somebody into a complete lost cause.....

The top 5 threads are d4 making a fool of himself and ruining a board........

You are a decent contributor my friend.......Don't ever get like this idiotic obsessed ballbag..

The people who rate Floyd will continue to rate him like me and those that won't will continue not to........Just live with it..

But stop looking for absurd ways to pop at him.....

Floyd was a mature grown man at 130/135...........He's as much of a welter as JCC....

For me the Duran that was at his very ferocious best against Leonard in the first fight would do a Castillo x10 job on Mayweather and give him a proper working over for a wide decision or late stoppage. The unmotivated not at his best Duran of many other nights gets his ears boxed off though.

No surprise you think like that Hogey...Looking at your p4p 15 list........

Not the Duran that faced Benitez then.........But the very very very very best Duran....

The one Leonard brawled with and didn't box........It was the very very very worst Duran that Benitez, Laing, Benitez, Dejesus, Sims, Hearns outboxed...

Boy weren't they lucky...