Ulster 2014/2015

First topic message reminder :

Details of pre-season games to confirmed- we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. On the transfer front, it seems like our business for the year is concluded. Second row looks strong and our back line is stronger than ever, but there are concerns about our depth in the front row and back row of the pack. A lot depends on Wiehahn Herbst turning out to be a hit and Chris Henry staying fit- our decision to spend a valuable NIQ spot on Louis Ludik and Sean Doyles departure leaves us exposed at open side with two new, extremely untested players in Reidy and Butterworth vying to be Henrys understudy. Rob Herring is another player who needs to avoid injury at all costs. Niall Annett has been allowed to leave along with Brady in recent seasons and the 3rd choice hooker is not obvious. With seedings in Europe determined by league performance, Ulster may very well rue their lack of depth in the forward pack come May.

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Ulster don't do turbulent off seasons but if we did...

We've also been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

Thanks for the efforts and memories John but good riddance all the same, have fun in Gloucester fighting it out for a spot in the European b comp.

I'd believe Ulster rugby over Afoa without a doubt. Let's face it the whole saga stinks. Saying he needed to return to NZ to be with his family and then contradicting this by moving across the Irish sea instead. His wife simply didn't like Belfast, why can't people just say it like it is?

Bye John, don't close the door on your way out, we have a Herbst coming in.

T'other forum claiming that Hogg is now going to Saracens, good god rumours love to twist and turn don't they.

Thats the thing with rumours. For all we know Stuart Hogg has his agent touting him all around Europe to get the SRU to open their purse strings. Just last week someone told me Hogg was BS and we were 'definitely' signing Ludik. Now that seems to have turned 180 and might do so again. We'll just wait and see what happens.

Not sure I would trust anything Crozier puts in print. It does appear that Afoa wanted to leave earlier, but was willing to make a compromise with Ulster, and one that he regrets now as it didn't work out. I wish him all the best for the future.

Now that the big man is gone they're calling in the wiehahn's    I feel this could be a great signing, and a more than able replacement for Afoa.

Agents are a blight on the game like they are in every sport, for sure Hogg is being touted all over Europe. Everyone is at it.

I hope we don't sign Hogg, he is a good player but I just feel that none of the PRO 12 teams really should be signing Non union qualified players, from the 6 nation countries.

The NIQ players are really important when the International players are away In Ireland training camps and matches etc, to be missing a NIQ player during this time as well seams to be a waste.

I though the Ospreys having Bowe, or Scarlets Barclay s Lamont were wasting a NWQ spot, great players that they are, they were missing at the same times as the Welsh internationals, surely a Southern Hemp player on the same wage would have been better Value for money.

Same applies to Hogg I thhink a SH player is better Vlaue, as they will not miss the same times as our own internationals.

Sorry Rodders was going to post that article but work got in the road, imagine people actually asking me to work while in the place don't they know i just go here for the attendance pay lol anyways Notch sorted you out with it so it's all good, it's a pity about Afoa when he was there he was world class but alas could not settle, it happens and I'm unlikely to shed any tears about it unlike Muller's retirement even the mention of the big man's name has me in tears but best of luck to John and welcome to Ravenhill Herbst

If Hogg is off elsewhere there is still the very real assumption that Jared Payne is our first choice 15. I say    to that

Standulstermen wrote:If Hogg is off elsewhere there is still the very real assumption that Jared Payne is our first choice 15. I say    to that

Well, if it means Payne stays at 15 then good. If it means Olding or Gilroy are shoehorned into that position then it may not be good. Hard to tell whats going to happen.

Goes without saying notch although I think Olding could make an excellent 15 too

He could, I thought he had his best game for Ulster at 15 against Cardiff just before he got injured. He's more of a like for like replacement for Payne than Gilroy or Hogg. But he wasn't great in his defense and positioning whereas he has no issues at centre. And we've seen how good he can be at 12.

I think in a really tight game he's not what you want at 15, when you have a surfeit of attacking possession he'd be very effective but not when you're on the back foot.

Whats the difference between losing Henry, Best, Trimble etc. to International squads than Pienaar and Hogg? Is it better to have a NIQ player who isn't wanted for Test rugby or one that is? Leinster are losing two players in some positions and still cope because that is what they have set out to do.

It would be better for Ulster to expect to lose 15 players and work out how they would cope than simply populate the team with also-rans who will never be selected.

The idea Aukster is that Hogg would be away at the same times as the Irish guys for 6 nations where as the likes of Pienaar or another quality southern hemisphere player would be away possibly but at a different time if at all considering Southern Hemisphere sides like to pick from within.
Take this for example this year we had Trimble away for the 6 Nations and mostly Jackson too.
If we were to sign Hogg and Payne moved to 13 then we could have Jackson, Payne, Trimble, Marshall/Olding (whoever plays inside centre), Bowe and Hogg away. Thats a whole backline gone.
I agree about making sure the players are quality but right now we don't have that depth

neilthom7 wrote:The idea Aukster is that Hogg would be away at the same times as the Irish guys for 6 nations where as the likes of Pienaar or another quality southern hemisphere player would be away possibly but at a different time if at all considering Southern Hemisphere sides like to pick from within.  
Take this for example this year we had Trimble away for the 6 Nations and mostly Jackson too.
If we were to sign Hogg and Payne moved to 13 then we could have Jackson, Payne, Trimble, Marshall/Olding (whoever plays inside centre), Bowe and Hogg away.  Thats a whole backline gone.
I agree about making sure the players are quality but right now we don't have that depth

Yea but I think the point is - do we not want international class ability from all our IQs? Our hope (as unrealistic as it is) is for our academy to all develop into test class players. If 5 years down the line when we are weak like Leinster during six nations are we going to be glad we have players THAT good, or sad that we have players THAT good.

For me I'd rather a Lions standard player most of the season than a (couldn't cut it*) Southern Hemisphere player all year round.

If we are going to be at the top, things like International Windows have to become a minor nuisance rather than the grave concern they are at present.


*Couldn't cut it - referring to their own test standard or lack of, albeit with national sides superior to ours.

Well bear in mind Jared Payne is only here because he couldn't cut it as an international in NZ clive- flip, BBC NI can bang on about Afoa and Muller as 'World Cup winners' as much as they want but they were never able to hold down their positions as first choice and were squad men. Isa Nacewa was never first choice or well regarded in Super Rugby etc. etc.

The art of Humphs job is telling the difference between a Jared Payne and a Clinton Schifcofske in terms of signing players who 'couldn't cut it' for their home country

I will say this; in the European Cup this season, all the best players were guys who weren't test players. Test rugby is massively demanding and a guy who is away on test duty is not necessarily going to be in peak form in between test windows as thats his focus and priority. There is a trade off in the divided loyalties of a current test player versus a player with a lesser reputation who is free to focus exclusively on Ulster.

I'm not saying that makes Hogg a bad signing, but it is a factor alright.

Ok, you have a good point, but considering this is the same David Humphries - is it not safe to assume if he's looking to use his NIQ on Hogg, it's because this time he couldn't find another SH gem...?

clivemcl wrote:Ok, you have a good point, but considering this is the same David Humphries - is it not likely to assume if he's looking to use his NIQ on Hogg, it's because this time he couldn't find another SH gem...?

Good chance you're right. There's no doubt, we're not going to unearth a Jared Payne every season thats for sure! Especially not the year before the RWC.

Another thing that could in future play into that is if the South African government really try and enforce the 60 per cent quota, they are not at the moment if they do there will be a lot of South Africans looking elsewhere. I know it's not really related to this but it's a point worth remembering.
Although I agree we do need the depth of Leinster and the only way to do that is to develop from Academy and supplement with the gems that Humphreys finds

Evening all.

I read the Afoa interview and I don't see any slagging off of UR or anything like it.

I have no idea why Mrs Afoa did not settle in Belfast but I do know the family suffered several tragic losses this year. Maybe she needed to be in NZ to help the wider family at a really difficult time? Maybe now that has changed?

Who know but I think both Afoa and UR really tried to make a very difficult situation work. I have no ill feeling towards JA at all.

I reckon Afoa used a made up offer from UR to increase his salary at Gloucester, and in interview, he had to stick to his script.

He didn't bet on UR contradicting him.

i suspect UR felt they had to do so because they maybe had Herbst lined up from last season, and wanted to make clear in case Herbst felt UR weren't 100% honest.

I suppose there might have been vague discussions about whether the situation was tenable for next season or not. Both could be telling the truth but just with a different interpretation on the same conversation.

MrsP wrote:Who know but I think both Afoa and UR really tried to make a very difficult situation work. I have no ill feeling towards JA at all.

No I don't either, he was in an impossible position between his family and his employer. Family is the most important thing in life. The confusing thing is why he was talking to the press at all and why he was talking about conversations he had (or didn't have?!) with Ulster Rugby to journalists but to be honest I doubt there's any malice in that at all- maybe poor judgment though.

Well it's not unusual for a departing player to be interviewed before he left.

And it's even less unusual for a journalist to print what he wants even if it is not a fair reflection of what was said.

I have friends who stopped to help at the scene of a car accident. They did what they could, waited till all the injured were safely on their way to hospital and left. A journalist contacted each of them for an interview and they all politely declined. The paper published quotes from them talking about the operation they had performed at the road side with a pen knife.

A penknife had indeed been used. To cut a piece of tape to stick down a drip that had been inserted.

No operation, no interview but they still printed it.

Journalists!

A very fair point   

Ulster published what they did because the article contained a blatant lie - that they had asked Afoa to stay.

Who is responsible for the lie - Crozier or Afoa is a different question.
If it is Crozier he might find himself banned from future events.
He is regarded as a joke anyway

Having said that Afoa is not exactly flavour of the month at Ulster regardless as he told them he was going back to NZ; then Glaws came waving notes in front of his face and 'homesickness' went out of the window.

My understanding of the Ludik/Hogg situation is that
Ludik wanted too much
Hogg provisional agreed a deal for a set salary.
Saracens (and maybe others) are offering/will offer more - we are not prepared to go any higher for a player missing in the International window.

We are cutting down on our top end salary bill such that next year only 1 player, who is not on a Central Contract, will be above the 200,000 Euro mark.
I think most can work out who that is

I reckon its true Afoa was never meant to get a contract renewal. I also think UR does a lot of their scouting based on potential future interest. I'd say they had maybe talked to Herbst before and without a contract being signed, both parties maybe knew he was likely to get a call from Ulster when this season ended.

I don't think Humphs goes about his business on a year to year basis based on what we are forced to get. He probably has a list of all the IQ SH players there are. I imagine all the provinces do.

Makes you wonder why its taking so long to hear about a backrower thoug h

geoff998rugby wrote:My understanding of the Ludik/Hogg situation is that
Ludik wanted too much
Hogg provisional agreed a deal for a set salary.
Saracens (and maybe others) are offering/will offer more - we are not prepared to go any higher for a player missing in the International window.

We are cutting down on our top end salary bill such that next year only 1 player, who is not on a Central Contract, will be above the 200,000 Euro mark.
I think most can work out who that is

Good work Geoff. Any news on Ferris?

It really doesn't look great - I think it is the end.
Never have I wanted to be wrong more

I am also highly dubious about Fitzpatrick - might be able to find out about that one on Friday. Going for a drink with one of his best mates - will give him the 3rd degree once the drink has loosen his tongue.   

clivemcl wrote:
Makes you wonder why its taking so long to hear about a backrower though

The reason is, I believe, that we do not know if we are signing a NIQ 15 or not.
If we dont then we would be allowed a NIQ backrower.

My guess is 1, probably 2, IQ backrowers are being lined up.

As you probably know O'Connor on a full contract and Butterworth on a development contract have been mentioned but nothing confirmed

Didn’t Agen just miss out on promotion? You would expect that to have an affect on Ludik’s salary demands. Regardless of religious beliefs, most ulster fans will recognise he’s cut from the same cloth as Muller and Pienaar, and that that is a good thing for Ulster.

I didn’t realise Ludik was still in the mix. I would MUCH rather an NIQ back rower plus Ludik than Hogg.

I hope Ulster can let Hogg and his temperament go to england where it probably deserves to be, and negotiate with Ludik who is a player who will fit well in the ulster camp.

Ludik isn't in the mix he wants too muich money.
A good half dozen of L2 teams have bigger salary budgets than Ulster - I think Agen is one of them.

Are we now factoring religious belief's into the player recruitment process? Hogg should head to a more secular club in England?

Since when did Ulster rugby cease being a professional sporting organisation and become a religious cult?

What a load of rubbish. And in terms of Hogg's character maybe he should be given a chance before he's hung out to dry, He's only a young guy and if he's only getting 90k at Glasgow its not surprising he is looking elsewhere.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Just checked budgets - every T14 and all 4 of those in the L2 play offs - Pau, La Rochelle, Agen and Lyon had substantially higher budgets than the 3 top Irish provinces.

Thats what we, all non French sides, are up against

I do hope the Ulster fans who take the religious beliefs of a player into account when judging their worth are in single figures, a little like such peoples' IQs.

  Agreed - if anyone think religion should be a consideration needs to take a hike.

Here of all places

For goodness sake - some people. Why so hyper sensitive. Did anyone read the line 'Regardless of...'

Wise up Rodders and Geoff.

Quite clearly I was saying that the 'man of faith' south african temperament is a better fit for Ulster (or anywhere) than spoilt child type that Hogg is reported as.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm pretty sure the point I was making was fairly obvious to anyone who isn't of an antireligious slant.

I didn't make any generalisations about religious versus non religious people. I wouldn't be so dumb. I made an assumption that Ludik would share characteristics with Muller/Pienaar that it doesn't sound like Hogg does.

clivemcl wrote:For goodness sake - some people. Why so hyper sensitive. Did anyone read the line 'Regardless of...'

Wise up Rodders and Geoff.

Quite clearly I was saying that the 'man of faith' south african temperament is a better fit for Ulster (or anywhere) than spoilt child type that Hogg is reported as.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm pretty sure the point I was making was fairly obvious to anyone who isn't of an antireligious slant.

I didn't make any generalisations about religious versus non religious people. I wouldn't be so dumb. I made an assumption that Ludik would share characteristics with Muller/Pienaar that it doesn't sound like Hogg does.

You've just totally contradicted yourself clive.

The best fit for Ulster is the best player who wants to play for us in the positions in which we need them to play. Being a 'man of faith' or South African is of total irrelevance.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:For goodness sake - some people. Why so hyper sensitive. Did anyone read the line 'Regardless of...'

Wise up Rodders and Geoff.

Quite clearly I was saying that the 'man of faith' south african temperament is a better fit for Ulster (or anywhere) than spoilt child type that Hogg is reported as.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm pretty sure the point I was making was fairly obvious to anyone who isn't of an antireligious slant.

I didn't make any generalisations about religious versus non religious people. I wouldn't be so dumb. I made an assumption that Ludik would share characteristics with Muller/Pienaar that it doesn't sound like Hogg does.

You've just totally contradicted yourself clive.

The best fit for Ulster is the best player who wants to play for us in the positions in which we need them to play. Being a 'man of faith' or South African is of total irrelevance.

I'm talking about an individual (Hogg) versus a certain cultural, geographical, religious background (openly admitting it is an assumption and not a rule). I declared no certainties, just assumptions.

I hope it doesn’t come as a shock - but being an Ulster fan, I do also believe th primary criteria is ability and commitment.   

Trouble is Clive your first paragraph made no reference to Hogg when referring to a player being a 'good fit'

hence the responses

I apologise if ive offended anyone. Surely im not the first on here to draw comparisons betwwen Ludik and Muller/Pienaar. Same country, same old club. Same type of faith. Many will say thats irrelevant. I think it maybe has an impact on certain things. Like commitment, selflessness, enjoying our country as a newhome.

It is quite possible the same eont apply to Ludik. It is also very possible that other players of other religions or none, from any location would be equally capable of displaying the traits we love to see in Muller and Pienaar.
I didnt mean to suggest otherwise.

I have two points:

Firstly I think people are jumping to conclusions about Hogg as a person. If he signs for us he deserves the same chance as anyone else to prove himself without being prejudged. Remember both Williams and Wannenberg had chequered pasts.

One of our best overseas signings was Justin Harrison who was no angel for sure...

I don't care what a player does in his own time, provided they don't bring the club into disrepute, as long as they perform in their duties on and off the pitch from a professional perspective, Anything else is their own business.

Absolutely Rodders. If Hogg comes, i will be hopeful that he wont be as problematic as the media and fans tout him to be.

BTW Clive totally agree we want more great role models (and players!) like Muller and Pienaar. Just don't think the Christian factor or nationality comes into it necessarily - although coincidentally or not both are a common denominator with some of the players we've had recently.

Roger Wilson is in the Barbarians squad for their game against England at the weekend. With that and a World XV game in South Africa, Roger could be getting as much game time as some of his Ulster colleagues in Argentina   

rodders wrote:BTW Clive totally agree we want more great role models (and players!) like Muller and Pienaar. Just don't think the Christian factor or nationality comes into it necessarily - although coincidentally or not both are a common denominator with some of the players we've had recently.

One factor is that people will feel they are going into an environment that welcomes them. Wiehahn Herbst is another very religious South african player- I have no doubt that the church-going culture here is a big part of the reason the Pienaar family feel so at home in Northern Ireland, and I've heard that Mrs. Pienaar has made a lot of friends through that. Happy wife, happy life- a settled family is so important to overseas players. So thats always going to be a factor when you are deciding whether to move halfway across the world if your religion is a very important part of your life. It will help you settle.

Totally agree but then if whiskey drinking and gambling is a big part of your life then you'll probably settle pretty well in Ulster too.....   

We have a broad spectrum of lifestyle options   

THe only to be wary of is not everyone is of the same persuasion and you dont want to creat a clique

Bowe, Best, Wilson and Stevenson for example are different types of guys.
All players, provided they act professionally, need to feel welcome

What were Mrs Afoa's interests? Areas we could potentially work on as a country?