Ulster 2014/2015, Part 3

Continue to discuss Ulsters lack of back row options and season in general

Good lord you guys like to talk.

Some verrrrry soft defence letting Treviso back in. Defence has been poor all game tbh.

24-0 up within 30 minutes. One dropped ball away from losing the game in the last two minutes.

This Ulster team is extremely weak mentally. They have talent but when the pressure comes on, they crumble.

Somehow that is even more disgusting than a loss. Complete and utter implosion from Ulster at the end.

So, for the last 55 minutes of the game, the scoreline was Treviso 20-0 Ulster...

Can we please try to make this thread a little more upbeat than Part 2?

Previously, I needed to drink heavily and have a short cry after each time I checked it.

3 trys in 25 minutes, I was pretty much banking on the BP, what happened, didn't get to see it?

That's shockingly poor considering the first 35 minutes. What could have been if gilroy went outside instead of cutting back in before trevisos first. Thought best was excellent in the first half but there was a real lack of leadership in the team that let them down.

Hopefully it'll give Treviso a boost though.

Not much chance after that performance, George

Absolute disgrace. I cant find words to do this Ulster team justice. Maybe they could sell Doaks HT team talks and show it at seminars about what not to do.

Clearout please. Mr Logan your 'product' is a shambles and no one will want to buy into it without major surgery

Bowe had a bit of a mare it has to be said. Some of the subs showed why they aren't up to scratch.

Not sure if it was co-incidental, but we didn't look as dangerous once Payne came on.

Either Ross or Reidy was responsible for coming in at the side giving away a penalty inside our 22. That kind of indiscipline is just unacceptable. Not sure about Gilroy's yellow - he maybe 'had' to - was it a definite overlap?

Thought Diack had a great first half too. He's super in the backline as he has pretty decent hands for a forward.

Also - one of our tries was off a definite forward pass, and another likely forward too.

Agree with Notch though, the main problem seems to be mental. Three line out fails in a row after Treviso kept giving us another go, when there was a bonus point to be had. Awful.

It was like watching first form rugby, not seasoned professionals. To think you have won the game that early and just switch off, casually throwing away 3 point opportunities, is absolutely criminal. I would love to know what Doak said at half-time; they didn't look like the same team from the first half and they didn't look bothered. As if Treviso were just going to hand them the 4th try.

It might sound mad but I wish that intercept had of stuck at the end

In fairness, all of top 6 sides have bombed bonus point opportunities lately.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It was like watching first form rugby, not seasoned professionals. To think you have won the game that early and just switch off, casually throwing away 3 point opportunities, is absolutely criminal. I would love to know what Doak said at half-time; they didn't look like the same team from the first half and they didn't look bothered. As if Treviso were just going to hand them the 4th try.

That's exactly what they did from around the 30 minute mark. Dropped their level of intensity, and allowed Treviso to run at them, as they did in the second half v Munster.
It wasn't very long ago that Ulster were a side that could up that level of intensity in the second half, and take teams apart in the last 20 minutes. Very disappointing.

I thought Treviso fronted up really well and fought hard to the end. Credit them with the comeback aas well as slate ulster for allowing them

as for spurning 3 pts - Ulster were going for the bonus point - I think that fair enough

Yet again Ulster show the lack of leadership on the pitch that is killing them this season. After they scored their third try they played some stupid rugby. With 13 minutes still before half time, they sat back and let Treviso play the ball in the Ulster half (aside from the break where Gilroy should have scored).

It's senior guys like Cave and Best that need to shoulder the blame for that. In that period Cave threw two passes to no one and an inside ball to Best when he had no support to concede a "holding on" penalty. The resulting lineout led to their first try. From the restart Tuohy throws a stupid pass for Ross to knock on and give Treviso all the impetus going in to the break.

What was really criminal was Best going for the corner just after the restart. Scoring first in the second half is something every coach tells their team. Even the All Blacks kick points when they are well in front. Killing the game off first with a couple of penalties would have allowed plenty of opportunities to get the bonus point later. It was stupid in the extreme and allowed the momentum to stay with Treviso and keep the crowd in the game.

Of course as the pressure ramped up then Rory falls apart with his throwing and it all became a shambles. Wilson again tried hard but showed that he has no more than 60 minutes in him now. Almost any other 8 in the league would have scored the clever short lineout move.

Jackson had a pretty good game with the ball in hand but insisted on kicking far too long far too often. If something isn't working then the solution is to keep trying it! Madness.

The Great Aukster wrote:What was really criminal was Best going for the corner just after the restart. Scoring first in the second half is something every coach tells their team. Even the All Blacks kick points when they are well in front. Killing the game off first with a couple of penalties would have allowed plenty of opportunities to get the bonus point later. It was stupid in the extreme and allowed the momentum to stay with Treviso and keep the crowd in the game.

Mentally, they were already feeling the pressure of needing to get that fourth try. When they were 17 points up with 37/38 minutes to go. Comfortable in the game, but as soon as a few things went against us they began to go to pieces. Thats really very worrying because while we were under pressure at the end, the rot started before we were under any scoreboard pressure. I've seen this before with Ulster. As soon as we get three tries we're forcing the game and looking nervous. Whatever the opposite of 'killer instinct' is, we've got it.

clivemcl wrote:  Bowe had a bit of a mare it has to be said. Some of the subs showed why they aren't up to scratch.

Every player who came on was inferior to the player they replaced

clivemcl wrote: Not sure if it was co-incidental, but we didn't look as dangerous once Payne came on.

We weren't and we shipped 2 tries as well. Cave organises our backs in defence

clivemcl wrote: Either Ross or Reidy was responsible for coming in at the side giving away a penalty inside our 22. That kind of indiscipline is just unacceptable.

 
It was Reidy

clivemcl wrote:Not sure about Gilroy's yellow - he maybe 'had' to - was it a definite overlap?

Clear overlap - yellow was justified

clivemcl wrote: Thought Diack had a great first half too. He's super in the backline as he has pretty decent hands for a forward.  

But again he went Awol in the 2nd half - starting to make a habit of it. THat allied to Wilson who clearly needs a rest means our backrow is pathetic

clivemcl wrote: Also - one of our tries was off a definite forward pass, and another likely forward too.

Only one for me

clivemcl wrote: Agree with Notch though, the main problem seems to be mental. Three line out fails in a row after Treviso kept giving us another go, when there was a bonus point to be had. Awful.  

Lets be clear those lineouts were not due to de Merwe being missing - the first two were terrible underthrows by Best.
Also he decision not to go for 3 points 4 mins from the end was stupid. He was in melt down.

I thought the referee was excellent in only his 2nd game.
Also why or why did we change tactics in the 2nd half.
We went from a running game to a kicking game - the coaches need to hang their head in shame as much as the, majority, of the players.

Rodders quoting you in the previous thread in reply to some comments by me about Cave

No you are contradicting yourself - my original comment that he doesn't or isn't willing to cover any positions other than 13 stands, which reduces his value to the squad versus some other other guys like Payne, Ludik and anyone else we risk losing to accommodate him.

I have heard from more than one source that he was unwilling to either fight for the 13 jersey or play at 12 for Ulster - not on this occaision but a previous one and have no doubt that history is repeating here.

It's no coincidence why he isn't liked or rated in Dublin and continually ignored by successive Irish coaches for other options.

No contradiction and as he has shown Cave is willing to play 12 but with our other options in that position he is hardly needed.
As he himself would admit he is only a contender in the centre and that is why he is not part of the Ireland set up.

As to the rumours you have heard I believe they are complete and utter bunk - I repeat for the nth time he has not been promised the 13 shirt merely a level playing in selection.

As to players not liked at Ulster you need to look no further than Anscombes old Cutters Wharf drinking buddies - if there is any friction in the club it is between them and the rest

The big puzzler for the fans is and has been this - roughly the same players played a lot better in past seasons than this season. We don't believe these players are past it - they just aren't doing it. And if there was any doubt, the team today decided to demonstrate this in greatest contrast all in the one game.

Like 'Hey check this out' followed by 'Nah I can't be ar$ed doing it anymore'.

If it's coaching and tactics - thats a bad situation. If the coaching and tactics are technically sound and the players just aren't performing. Then that's also on the coach.

Anscombe may well have shamed and belittled some people. But...

maybe there were people in the squad who responded really well to that kind of high standard, and upped their game as a result.

Feels too much like players on the pitch aren't worried about any backlash from these performances.

Some may not have enjoyed the new zealand cliques last year - is it at all possible some this year might feel like the norn irish boys all look out for each other and jobs get handed out based on who you know rather than ability?

Looks to me like the players could use some friction Geoff. Something is seriously lacking anyway and you can't tell me that's a happy camp.

geoff999rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote: Agree with Notch though, the main problem seems to be mental. Three line out fails in a row after Treviso kept giving us another go, when there was a bonus point to be had. Awful.  

Lets be clear those lineouts were not due to de Merwe being missing - the first two were terrible underthrows by Best.
Also he decision not to go for 3 points 4 mins from the end was stupid. He was in melt down.

I thought the referee was excellent in only his 2nd game.
Also why or why did we change tactics in the 2nd half.
We went from a running game to a kicking game - the coaches need to hang their head in shame as much as the, majority, of the players.

I agree the ref was very good.

I disagree about the 3 points at the end - by that time going for the corner was the only way Ulster had left for the chance of the bonus. It was not going for the penalties just after the half that was stupid. Treviso had gone in with all the momentum and if Ulster had scored 3 or 6 immediately it would have deflated them and buoyed Ulster. Ulster needed to know the game was home and hosed before they started to press for the fourth try. Smart teams build scores and tries will come. Ulster play well, get ahead of themselves and start making stupid decisions. Not scoring points on offer at the start of the 2nd half aubibly lifted the crowd and increased the pressure on Ulster.

I couldn't understand the switch to the kicking game either other than Ulster had to revert to it as Treviso came back into the game and Ulster panicked more and more. Pienaar not kicking and then kicking was also strange. It was as though Jackson had lost confidence and a Pienaar niggle had miraculously healed. Ludik's kicking was also ludicrous. My only explanation for the increase in kicking as the half wore one wasn't a tactical one but rather because too many players looked knackered. Cave was bent double blowing hard, Bowe had stopped chasing, Wilson was ruck inspecting, etc. either the physical game took too much out of them or the mental stress wore them down but as good as the handling was in the first half it was as bad in the second - epitomised by the serial comedy of dropped passes and scrambling panic at one stage.

clivemcl wrote:The big puzzler for the fans is and has been this - roughly the same players played a lot better in past seasons than this season. We don't believe these players are past it - they just aren't doing it. And if there was any doubt, the team today decided to demonstrate this in greatest contrast all in the one game.

Except it's not roughly the same players Clive. Muller, Afoa and Court were big influences on other players. Trimble, Henry, Payne and Henderson are all quality and inspirational players too and they for the most part haven't been available (and to a lesser extent Pienaar and Jackson). Doyle was a decent player and better than those brought in, Wilson isn't up to starting as much as he has, Williams was pandered to by Anscombe and has lost his mojo.

Then there are the others: Black promoted, Warwick new, Herbst new, BRoss (as good as) new, VdM new, O'Connor new, CRoss new, Reidy new, Ludik new, Humphreys reboot, Olding first full contract, McCloskey first full contract, Nelson in from the cold - then there is the new coaching structure...

All that signals an awful lot of change and in no way is "roughly the same players" as in past seasons.

OK, i agree, I was inaccurate to suggest it was roughly the same players but:

a) I take it with a pinch of salt that Afoa/Court/Payne/Henderson are inspirational. I don't see the evidence.
b) I don't buy that the 'news' are worse than the departees. And you state Doyle - I'd bet my money on his performances having dropped like everyone elses under Doak if he had been re-signed.
c) We've had injury problems with multiple 'key' players in past seasons and still done fairly well (stellar compared to this). Injury issues with key players is something pretty much every team has to overcome in most seasons if they want to be top.

As for Best/Tuohy/Henry/Jackson/Olding/Marshall/Payne/Cave/Gilroy/Bowe - What exactly is the case they would argue for Irish selection? "Oh, I'm actually way better than this - it's just i need to be playing with other influential and inspirational players for me to shine!"

I doubt it would cut the mustard for Schmidt and it doesn't cut the mustard for Ulster fans.

There's no doubt about it. The ability of these players is not reflective of the performances.

We have lost 2 key things that are responsible for our decline

We had a credible backfow last year - since Henrys injury we dont this year - a situation likely to happen but made worst by the signing of a NIQ 15 when we needed a backrower.

Putting out teams with players who cant break the game line - no Trimble, no Henderson, no Ferris, no Afoa, Williams no longer up to it and till recently no Tuohy.

In the modern game that kills you - add that ahead coach who has been promoted above his ability and you have the mess we are in now.

As for that kick near the end - we were going for the bonus point but the reality is we were hanging on and risked 3 points to try and get 1 more - bad maths.
We were a knock on, from an intercept, from losing the game.

As to tiredness from some players that is because other are having to do the backrows job as well as there own.
We have a near useless backrow

clivemcl wrote:

b) I don't buy that the 'news' are worse than the departees. And you state Doyle - I'd bet my money on his performances having dropped like everyone elses under Doak if he had been re-signed.  

Ludik is not as good a 15 as Payne
de Merwe is not as good as Mueller
Our props do not break the gain line like thedeparted ones
Our backrow in 2 years has gone from Ferris, Williams at his peak, Henry to Diack, Wilson, Ross
In the modern game that is it

As for Doyle it need to be said why he left - he had the memory of a goldfish. He couldnt remember calls in the heat of battle.

clivemcl wrote:

As for Best/Tuohy/Henry/Jackson/Olding/Marshall/Payne/Cave/Gilroy/Bowe - What exactly is the case they would argue for Irish selection? "Oh, I'm actually way better than this - it's just i need to be playing with other influential and inspirational players for me to shine!"

I doubt it would cut the mustard for Schmidt and it doesn't cut the mustard for Ulster fans.

Fortuantely Schmidt can see behind the performances and knows who will perform with better players around him.

I repeat no backrow, no break the gain line players and a coach not up to the job is crippling

There is no lack of passion in the team what there is a lot of confusion

Deep down I beleive they dont think we are going in the right direction under this coaching set up - I think they are right

Munchkin wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It was like watching first form rugby, not seasoned professionals. To think you have won the game that early and just switch off, casually throwing away 3 point opportunities, is absolutely criminal. I would love to know what Doak said at half-time; they didn't look like the same team from the first half and they didn't look bothered. As if Treviso were just going to hand them the 4th try.

That's exactly what they did from around the 30 minute mark. Dropped their level of intensity, and allowed Treviso to run at them, as they did in the second half v Munster.
It wasn't very long ago that Ulster were a side that could up that level of intensity in the second half, and take teams apart in the last 20 minutes. Very disappointing.

That's what has been going on all season - the inability to play for 80 min. Either this is down to fitness, confidence or both.

My feeling is that there is a fragile confidence running through the side and when the pressure comes on then things start to crumble and unforced errors come in - poor kicking and handling across the board. When Treviso stood off we looked great - the same happened against Leinster and Connacht.

The basics are also not there this year - the scrum (minus Herbst) is not good enough, the line out isn't functioning under pressure and the back row quality is not good enough minus Ferris, Henry and an on form Nick Williams.The defence is poor too compared to previous seasons.

Because of this we have a side lacking confidence trying to play its way out of trouble and putting itself under more pressure. Some of the kicking was really poor, giving no chance to the chaser and our backrow weren't good enough to retain the ball through the phases.

I think individually a few players are trying their best to turn things around - Best, Ludik, Touhy, Diack, Jackson, Herbst, Pienaar, Gilroy... but there is a panic and frustration building now and lack of leadership through the side.

They need to forget about the play off's and chasing bonus points and just sort the set piece and defence out - try and string some results together at home and build some confidence. The problem is we have Toulon next and could get trounced which would be another big blow.

Good post Rodders - looking at the forwards on the pitch at the end

2 good players - Best, Tuohy
1.5 decent - Black, Diack (first half)
4.5 poor - Ross, Reidy, Stevenson, Diack (2nd half), Wilson

the class simply isn't there

Where do we go from here and how long will it take to undo the damage done to Ulster Rugby by the time Kiss returns? That second half display left me utterly gutted and more than a little dazed at what the hell happened. With the games we have at the latter end of the season I can't see us being anywhere but the lower half of the table.

Well for me its a case of sitting down and analysing the last few performances and working out where things are going wrong and try and put right with the players we have available:-

Decision making
tactical kicking
Scrum
Linout
Defence
Breakdown

Go out againt Toulon and try and show an improvement in at least some of these- even if the game is unwinnable, use it as stepping stone to putting things right for the upcoming league games without the pressure of needing a result.

Forget about chasing silverware, top 4 or even top 6 for now - just try and work on the performances because they aren't good enough to attain any of these targets at the minute.  

We need to reinforce the positives - we're 5th in the league, so not out of sight and got a decent away win against Treviso and 4 points. Some of the back play has been good in patches and some of the individual performances have been pretty good even if the collective has been a mess.

If you look at Leinster, who've been pretty poor for the past two seasons they've still managed to get decent results and muddle through despite the criticism - that gives something to build on at least. It starts up front and then work backwards - you can still win games with crap back play - get a decent forward platform, make the tackles and nail the goals.  

I think we are at a crux here of going up or going further down - the next few months will be huge test on the coaches and senior players - at the minute we need cool heads...but do we have them....

Pete330v2 wrote:Where do we go from here and how long will it take to undo the damage done to Ulster Rugby by the time Kiss returns? That second half display left me utterly gutted and more than a little dazed at what the hell happened. With the games we have at the latter end of the season I can't see us being anywhere but the lower half of the table.

For all our problems we will not be in the bottom half of the table - we are 11 points clear of Scarlets and Edinburgh with 9 games to go
The next 6 are:

Ulster Rugby   v   Benetton Treviso
Edinburgh Rugby   v   Ulster Rugby
Ulster Rugby   v   Scarlets
Newport Gwent Dragons   v   Ulster Rugby
Ulster Rugby   v   Cardiff Blues
Connacht Rugby   v   Ulster Rugby

with Henderson due back in February we will win at least 3 of those.
Reality is neither Scarlets or Edinburgh have what it takes to catch us.

My bigger worry will be next year - no Kiss for the summer period and by time he returns we could be a complete and utter mess.
No NIQ signings this year.
Either we get a couple of players from Munster and/or Leinster to play in our backrow or we are screwed.

Thats not a bad looking run in - in theory they are all very winnable.... however in current form I'd be taking one game at a time.

Last game in Galway looks a tough one -a real 8 pointer if Connacht can keep close to us.

Some interesting stats about MA from a poster on the other forum make for interesting reading.

1st place in the league, a Rabo final, qualifying as the top team in Europe from the HEC group stages last year, a home Q/F, away wins in France, a win at Welford Road, a win at the RDS against a Schmidt Leinster. Oh and the Pr12's longest unbeaten run.

Anscombe may not have deserved to continue - but it is a joke to get rid of somebody without an adequate replacement.

Doak is doing his best to make Anscombe look Ferguson-esque...

Does anyone lese think we should send a weak team over to France this weekend, no point in risking injury when we have so much to play for in the league.

Getting into Europe is not enough, as the higher we are in the table the better are chances are of getting a better group.

Nothing to play for in Europe, i know that there is something that we should have toplay our strongest team, but if Castres and others are not we shouldn't either.

There is nothing to be gained in beating Toulon, or even getting a LBP, but if we picked up unnessary injuries it could cost us dear in the League and for Europe next year.

My mind says too much risk for too little gain, and not worth it.

It's this thinking that can really ruin groups in Europe when Teams give up after Christmas, (which I generally don't like) but its the way the new cup is likily to go more and more (at least previous years you got ranking points from the group toward the next season to try and keep you intrested).

Kingshu wrote:Nothing to play for in Europe, i know that there is something that we should have toplay our strongest team, but if Castres and others are not we shouldn't either.

There is nothing to be gained in beating Toulon, or even getting a LBP, but if we picked up unnessary injuries it could cost us dear in the League and for Europe next year.

I agree, but I also worry about us getting humiliated to a certain extent if we weaken the team too much. Certainly we should rest a few key players but the guys who look like they need the most rest are the back rowers and the idea of reserves we have there up against Toulon is pretty stomach-churning.

Reidy, Ross and McComish take on three of Juan Smith, Armitage, Gorgodze, Masoe, Fernandez Lobbe...

Good opportunity to expose guys like Andy Warwick and Alan O'Connor to this extremely high level and see how they cope perhaps.

We aren't at 50 posts yet and already I've had to take a Prozac.

Anscombe had to go for his unprofessional conduct.
Mueller was the forwards coach last year not Anscombe and Mueller himself told Logan to get rid of Anscombe - that is good enough for me.

The problem was we were promised a World Class coach -we got Doak !
With the wisdom of hindsight we should have said no to Kiss because he was not going to with us from October 2014 to October 2015.

As to Toulon I would play a very weakened side:

Warwick, Best, Fitzpatrick, Tuohy, O'Connor, Ross, McCormish, Reidy, Marshall, Humphreys (if fit), Allen, Marshall, Payne, Ludik, Andrew

We are going to get stuffed anyway so we might as well protect those players who are key to us during the 6N.
Totally meaningless fixture for us

BRING BACK McLAUGHLIN!!!!!!

Could he do any worse ?

geoff998rugby wrote:Warwick, Best, Fitzpatrick, Tuohy, O'Connor, Ross, McCormish, Reidy, Marshall, Humphreys (if fit), Allen, Marshall, Payne, Ludik, Andrew

Agree with that Geoff, and a reasonable team given the ERC Cup constraints. The question is the following game against Leicester which is also meaningless but is at home so does have that importance and will require a better team.

I had a look through the squad and there aren't even a lot of young players who you could give the experience of playing in France. The only one is maybe John Donnan for the bench and possibly Shanahan.

At home to Leicester we will go for a strong team.
Playing a weak team for a home match will be considered unacceptable from a public relations perspective

geoff998rugby wrote:At home to Leicester we will go for a strong team.
Playing a weak team for a home match will be considered unacceptable from a public relations perspective

Rightly so, winning home games sells season tickets and the bigger the better.

The question is should Ulster play their strongest team including any players that might not be 100% fit and have total commitment to the win?

The Tigers game is arguably the second biggest game in Belfast this season - it is unlikely Ulster will have any playoff games so even though the game is meaningless in terms of anything other than a one-off game, is it actually now the number one game that Ulster should give absolutely everything to win?

We will play the best team available but will not risk anyone not fully fit - to my knowledge at least 2 players on the pitch against Treviso were not 100% and two others are in need of a break.

Hope they get it this week

The Great Aukster wrote:
The Tigers game is arguably the second biggest game in Belfast this season

Is it really? I'd have thought the remaining league games and securing a top 6 finish would be higher priority.

The remaining RCC games are dead rubber games in terms of results but are important for 2 reasons - moral -we need to finish the competition on a positive and improved performance and secondly individuals need to perform to push for representative honours - be it the 6N squad or Wolfhounds - particularly with RWC places at stake.

With that in mind I'd expect to see the most of the 1st team play the both games, certainly anyone with international asperations  -unless they are carrying any niggles or injuries.

Tigers is the second biggest game of the season, at home, in terms of publicity and income.

In terms of rugby it is one of two totally irrelevant games - the other being Toulon.

In fairness though, in terms of mentality - what would help the team better? A surprise fronting up against Treviso in February? Or a surprise fronting up against Toulon or Leicester?

I have a feeling the coaches message might be something like "We are so much better, we know we are better, we will perform, and we will start performing right now."

I get the protecting players argument. But for those who are struggling mentally, is it really going to be beneficial to give them the message of "We have a month that doesn't matter, but you better start playing well again come 13th February!"

Also - as if silverware and salary weren't enough motivation - it's as if some players have completely forgotten how close the Rugby World Cup is.

Diack and Wilson should not be playing they need a break

Pienaer should not play he is still not 100%

We will get stuffed in France regardless
Send the reserves to France and hit Leicester with everything we've got

There is no lack of motivation and commitment in this squad - there is a lot of confusion and anxiety though.
Ruderless coaching is the cause