England v New Zealand - Test 2 (14 Jun 2014)

First topic message reminder :

NEW ZEALAND v ENGLAND
Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Saturday 14th June, KO 19:35 local, 08:35 BST

TEAMS
New Zealand
1: Woodcock, 2: Coles, 3: O Franks, 4: Retallick, 5: Whitelock, 6: Messam, 7: McCaw (c), 8: Kaino, 9: A Smith, 10: Cruden, 11: Savea, 12: Nonu, 13: C Smith, 14: Jane, 15: B Smith
Bench: 16: Mealamu, 17: Crockett, 18: Faumuina, 19: Tuipulotu, 20: Vito, 21: Perenara, 22: Barrett, 23: Fekitoa
England
1: Marler, 2: Webber, 3: Wilson, 4: Launchbury, 5: Parling, 6: Wood, 7: Robshaw (c), 8: Morgan, 9: Care, 10: Farrell, 11: Yarde, 12: Twelvetrees, 13: Burrell, 14: Tuilagi (what was he thinking?), 15: Brown
Bench: 16: Hartley, 17: Mullan, 18: Brookes, 19: Lawes, 20: Vunipola, 21: Youngs, 22: Burns, 23: Ashton

OFFICIALS
Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
ARs: Nigel Owens (WRU) & Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

What about the bench Geordie? Attwood or Parling (or someone else).
Youngs on the bench or Dickson?
Eastmond on the bench or Pennel/Foden/etc

Yes agree and the trigger for all this definitely coincides with the appointment of Lancaster. His ability to 'learn and apply' rather than just impose (from down at their number 4 or 5 ranking) has meant he's been able to build during his tenure- theres inch by inch improvement with every outing, every test, rather than a series of ones offs.

SA are also building in that respect but theyve got other barriers- the deserters and their coach has a bit of an ego thing going on, and a Bulls first hangup.

Now we have Aussie in some new rennaisance mode as well so the challenges dont just stop at England. If anything, we are the side most living on borrowed time of the top 4.

Taylorman wrote:SA are also building in that respect but theyve got other barriers- the deserters and their coach has a bit of an ego thing going on, and a Bulls first hangup

Meyer also has the impeccable talent of pulling his best players off the pitch and replacing them just when they are at peak performance which leads to a deflating Boks. Why on earth substitute Bismark every game?

You won't run England off the park taylorman. You may win that's a possibility but you definitely won't run them off the park. The full England side will take Nz to places they've never been before and they won't like it believe me.

Ah Hammer theres the thing...the bench.

I think this is where its harsh on Parling as i believe hes a starter or nothing. AS he doesnt bring enough impact. Thus for me its Attwood.

How about:
16 Waller
17 Hartley
18 Thomas / Brookes (Who can actually cover Hooker and LH aswell)
19 Attwood
20 Billy V (Would start Morgan)
21 Cipriani
22 Burrell
23 Foden (Covers wing and FB)

Thus starting:
1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Burns

11 May
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Yarde
15 Brown

chewed_mintie wrote:

Taylorman wrote:SA are also building in that respect but theyve got other barriers- the deserters and their coach has a bit of an ego thing going on, and a Bulls first hangup

Meyer also has the impeccable talent of pulling his best players off the pitch and replacing them just when they are at peak performance which leads to a deflating Boks.  Why on earth substitute Bismark every game?

I reckon! After the uproar of the send off at Eden Park, Meyer pulls him off after 50 minutes at Ellis when the boks are hot on attack on the AB 5 yard line, leading 22-21 and still up for the entire championship. One of the worst sub decisions I've ever seen.

Yet in comparison with the re card, hardly a frown goes in Meyers direction.

englandglory4ever wrote:You won't run England off the park taylorman. You may win that's a possibility but you definitely won't run them off the park. The full England side will take Nz to places they've never been before and they won't like it believe me.

Meh. Every team's been to those places. Still not the finished article yet mate-England is capable of some great performances but consistency, while starting to come, is still not there yet. This is the most consistently winning side in world sport-they go to those places and still end up on the right side of the ledger so don't think it's anything new. Ireland found that out.

englandglory4ever wrote:You won't run England off the park taylorman. You may win that's a possibility but you definitely won't run them off the park. The full England side will take Nz to places they've never been before and they won't like it believe me.

They're the best because they have been to those places and still come out the other side.

England are good....but lets not get carried away chief, still areas of our game to work on....

englandglory4ever wrote:I actually can't wait for Saturday. I think England will win this one with something to spare. They only need to play with the precision they had against Wales and it'll be in the bag.

When has any team done that away in NZ?

Get down the bookies and back England with a neg handicap then. The price will be huge!!

GF, I think the depth is there for England. What's lacking is the experience of playing together. If you consider the options:

LH - Corbs, Marler, Vunipola - no issues there, plus Mullan and Waller ready to step up
HK - Hartley, Webber, Youngs - and then Gray, Ward, Buchanan, George...
TH - Wilson, Cole - and then lots of potential but limited experience - Thomas, Collier, Sinckler
4 - Launchbury, Attwood
5 - Lawes, Parling - could probably do with bringing one more lock through
6 - Wood, Croft, Haskell, Billy V - also Clark and Johnson, so no issues at 6
7 - Robshaw - I think this is now the main remaining problem position. The obvious solution - Steffon - is unavailable, and it's not clear who to bring through or how. That said, Haskell has played well at 7, Wood and Johnson play there at club level, so there's no real shortage
8 - Billy V, Morgan - And if someone gets injured, there will be Nick Easter.

9 - Care, Youngs, Dickson - the issue here is the current gap between Care and the others, but I think it can be rectified with coaching
10 - Farrell - the other tricky one. Ford, Burns, Cipriani and Myler are all options but will be short of experience. However, Burns's performance showed that they are able to bring players in and have them be effective quickly
11 & 14 - May, Yarde, Ashton, Wade, Sharples, Foden, Brown, Tuilagi - the issue here seems to be to find the right combination, but that can be done quite late
12 - 36, Barritt, Burrell, Eastmond - 4 players who look ready
13 - Burrell, Tuilagi - could do with a 3rd option
15 - Brown, Goode, Foden, Pennell - Foden and Pennell will be short of recent game time, though.

There's no lack of talent; the issue is that they don't have much time to play together between now and the RWC.

englandglory4ever wrote:You won't run England off the park taylorman. You may win that's a possibility but you definitely won't run them off the park. The full England side will take Nz to places they've never been before and they won't like it believe me.

Do you mean dwarf tossing in Queenstown?

Poorfour i just think there is a difference between experienced players who have played at this level on a regular basis and done it...players you can count on as opposed to players who play for their clubs but have never proven anything at this level.

Even the likes of Eastmond isnt depth yet. He's shown potential in one game. I want to see his average performance over 3/4/5 games. Then we can say yes he is one we have.

The Pack has more depth.

Depth of England:
1- Marler, Vunipola, Corbs
2- Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3- Cole, Wilson, (Thomas has shown he can do it at worst case scenario)
4/5- Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Attwood
(Slater etc as yet unproven at international level)
6/7- Wood, Haskell, Robshaw, Croft, Johnson
8- Billy V, Ben Morgan

9-Care, Youngs, Dickson
10-Farrell (The others havent proven anything yet)
Centres - Manu, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt
Wings - Ashton
(May, Wade, Yarde etc etc ALL still unproven)
FB - Foden, Brown, Goode

So looking at this we do have more proven depth than i thought....however i still see positions like 9,10 and Wing as lacking.

I guess depth to me means having the fewest number of positions where you get that sinking feeling when a player goes off injured, versus those where you look forward to the replacement coming on.

Nearly every team has a few of each. In the 2003 England squad they had good cover at 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 12/13 and back three, but you worried if Johnson, Hill or Wilkinson left the field.

With this team, it's getting to the point where I don't worry unduly about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 12 or 13, and the main concern over 11, 14 and 15 is familiarity with each other. 7 and 9 are concerns today; 10 is too, but I am less worried after Saturday than I was (not so much because of Burns himself, but because of how well he fitted in).

It gets to the point where you have a settled team where 1 or 2 replacements even if a big step down in quality are comfortably encorporated. Another example of what a good job Lancaster has done as he pretty much started from scratch with his team rebuilding first the forwards and now the backs.

Ok, bold prediction time.

England to win by 10.

Key reasons:
- extra attacking threat and speed of Care
- England are a much more dangerous attacking side than they have ever been before...8 clean breaks and 22 defenders beaten to NZ's 5 and 13...and that will improve with the recently arrived players, whether starting or on the bench
- interestingly in the AI, England lost 22-30, and had 0 clean breaks, reflecting the untried back combinations, Tomkins, Foden and an out of form Ashton. The backline is very much stronger now and gaining in confidence and hunger every game.
- there will be pressure on the referees after Owen's uncharacteristically poor performance, and Eng might benefit at scrum and yellows will be awarded if NZ infringe early this time a-la-Nonu
- Brown had his worst game catching the ball in an England shirt. I expect him to cause havoc if NZ try to kick the ball 34 times from hand again like Saturday.
- England set-piece scrum and lineouts were rock solid and i see no reason that will change
- England will certainly have the self belief now

Of course we can easily lose. especially with NZ's kick-chase game vs our rush defense there are going to be some heart in mouth moments and lucky or unlucky bounces depending who one supports.

But having watched the match a couple of time, looked at the statistics, compared them to previous Eng v NZ matches and considered the personnel changes since those games, combined with NZ's lack of personnel changes, i reckon we will do it. To borrow a phrase from Gibbo....Believe!

quinsforever wrote:Ok, bold prediction time.

England to win by 10.

Key reasons:
- extra attacking threat and speed of Care
- England are a much more dangerous attacking side than they have ever been before...8 clean breaks and 22 defenders beaten to NZ's 5 and 13...and that will improve with the recently arrived players, whether starting or on the bench
- interestingly in the AI, England lost 22-30, and had 0 clean breaks, reflecting the untried back combinations, Tomkins, Foden and an out of form Ashton. The backline is very much stronger now and gaining in confidence and hunger every game.
- there will be pressure on the referees after Owen's uncharacteristically poor performance, and Eng might benefit at scrum and yellows will be awarded if NZ infringe early this time a-la-Nonu
- Brown had his worst game catching the ball in an England shirt. I expect him to cause havoc if NZ try to kick the ball 34 times from hand again like Saturday.
- England set-piece scrum and lineouts were rock solid and i see no reason that will change
- England will certainly have the self belief now

Of course we can easily lose. especially with NZ's kick-chase game vs our rush defense there are going to be some heart in mouth moments and lucky or unlucky bounces depending who one supports.

But having watched the match a couple of time, looked at the statistics, compared them to previous Eng v NZ matches and considered the personnel changes since those games, combined with NZ's lack of personnel changes, i reckon we will do it. To borrow a phrase from Gibbo....Believe!

I've forwarded this to Steve Hansen. There's no point in turning up, so I'll suggest they take a couple of weeks off. I'm happy it's the wedding anniversary, so no chance of watching the game, and now I know the score I won't have to read in the paper the next day.

I guess depth to me means having the fewest number of positions where you get that sinking feeling when a player goes off injured, versus those where you look forward to the replacement coming on.

Yeah i think thats pretty much correct. I agree.

And i do believe we have some cracking players still coming through increasing depth all the time that i look forward to seeing in the England set up.....but at the moment...despite say Ed Slaters performances for the Tigers and his captaincy role, i wouldnt include him in the strength in depth...until id seen him play for us and perform well over the course of a few games.

Our depth is getting better in lots of positions though and Lancaster and his team deserve a lot of credit.

"Nearly every team has a few of each. In the 2003 England squad they had good cover at 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 12/13 and back three, but you worried if Johnson, Hill or Wilkinson left the field."

The reason why you worried if Johnson, Hill or Wilkinson went off is because they were world class. The reason why you don't worry if any of the current team go off is that they are good and there are good players to replace them - but they are not world class. Remember to replace Johnson you had the likes of Shaw, Kay, Grewcock, etc, etc. Any of those players would be in or around the current England team.

So for me the problem for England is we have a lot of good players but not one who I would say was definitely world class and would be in a world 15 - not even Brown player of the 6Nations.
"

How long does it take to be world class though? I'd say there's a fair few English players, young or reasonably new to the team who were putting in world class performances this last season. 1 season could be a fluke, 2 ok?

blackcanelion wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Ok, bold prediction time.

England to win by 10.

Key reasons:
- extra attacking threat and speed of Care
- England are a much more dangerous attacking side than they have ever been before...8 clean breaks and 22 defenders beaten to NZ's 5 and 13...and that will improve with the recently arrived players, whether starting or on the bench
- interestingly in the AI, England lost 22-30, and had 0 clean breaks, reflecting the untried back combinations, Tomkins, Foden and an out of form Ashton. The backline is very much stronger now and gaining in confidence and hunger every game.
- there will be pressure on the referees after Owen's uncharacteristically poor performance, and Eng might benefit at scrum and yellows will be awarded if NZ infringe early this time a-la-Nonu
- Brown had his worst game catching the ball in an England shirt. I expect him to cause havoc if NZ try to kick the ball 34 times from hand again like Saturday.
- England set-piece scrum and lineouts were rock solid and i see no reason that will change
- England will certainly have the self belief now

Of course we can easily lose. especially with NZ's kick-chase game vs our rush defense there are going to be some heart in mouth moments and lucky or unlucky bounces depending who one supports.

But having watched the match a couple of time, looked at the statistics, compared them to previous Eng v NZ matches and considered the personnel changes since those games, combined with NZ's lack of personnel changes, i reckon we will do it. To borrow a phrase from Gibbo....Believe!

I've forwarded this to Steve Hansen. There's no point in turning up, so I'll suggest they take a couple of weeks off. I'm happy it's the wedding anniversary, so no chance of watching the game, and now I know the score I won't have to read in the paper the next day.

its just my prediction dont let it bother you. bounce of the ball and rub of the green and other factors mean the score could reasonably be +20 to -20. so i still think you should tape the match

No 7&1/2 wrote:How long does it take to be world class though? I'd say there's a fair few English players, young or reasonably new to the team who were putting in world class performances this last season. 1 season could be a fluke, 2 ok?

World Class is bounded about too much these days.

What you need is players who are consitantly playing to high levels. I believe we have a number of those now...certainly in the forwards.

In the backs we have one or two but are possibly lacking a couple of top class players who can create something from nothing. We tend to look for boshers.

Players like Wade, Yarder, May etc just need time to get bring their skills to this level.

I agree Geordie, you're looking to players like Care, Brown, Wade, Eastmond for out and out flair asit can take you to the next level. World class is a bit laughable as everyone has a different definition of what it is.

quinsforever wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Ok, bold prediction time.

England to win by 10.

Key reasons:
- extra attacking threat and speed of Care
- England are a much more dangerous attacking side than they have ever been before...8 clean breaks and 22 defenders beaten to NZ's 5 and 13...and that will improve with the recently arrived players, whether starting or on the bench
- interestingly in the AI, England lost 22-30, and had 0 clean breaks, reflecting the untried back combinations, Tomkins, Foden and an out of form Ashton. The backline is very much stronger now and gaining in confidence and hunger every game.
- there will be pressure on the referees after Owen's uncharacteristically poor performance, and Eng might benefit at scrum and yellows will be awarded if NZ infringe early this time a-la-Nonu
- Brown had his worst game catching the ball in an England shirt. I expect him to cause havoc if NZ try to kick the ball 34 times from hand again like Saturday.
- England set-piece scrum and lineouts were rock solid and i see no reason that will change
- England will certainly have the self belief now

Of course we can easily lose. especially with NZ's kick-chase game vs our rush defense there are going to be some heart in mouth moments and lucky or unlucky bounces depending who one supports.

But having watched the match a couple of time, looked at the statistics, compared them to previous Eng v NZ matches and considered the personnel changes since those games, combined with NZ's lack of personnel changes, i reckon we will do it. To borrow a phrase from Gibbo....Believe!

I've forwarded this to Steve Hansen. There's no point in turning up, so I'll suggest they take a couple of weeks off. I'm happy it's the wedding anniversary, so no chance of watching the game, and now I know the score I won't have to read in the paper the next day.

its just my prediction dont let it bother you. bounce of the ball and rub of the green and other factors mean the score could reasonably be +20 to -20. so i still think you should tape the match

It's fine I am away with the Misses sans kids. Rugby may be on the agenda if she thinks England will win.

I love to see confidence in an England side. Its been an awful long time coming...however i hope theres not a few dissapointed ones out there come the weekend.

There seems to be a little bit over confidence even just on these boards and a few of the others....

England are progressing nicely, and i do believe if we play smart, intense, pacy rugby we could give them another good game....but winning a test match in New Zealand is earned the hard way...and are not easy to get.

i hear you geordie. i wont be disappointed if NZ win, but i will be a bit disappointed if Eng don't continue to make progress. the trend is our friend.

with webber, burns and morgan amongst others having played so well in the first test, there should be real hunger and fire in those who arrived more recently to make their own statements. our subs came on with a whimper compared to the AB subs roaring. i dont think that will happen in the next two tests thats for sure.

Thats the way Quins.

Its nice to be confident...and i think we have progressed to a team that i dont expect to be on the receiving end of a kicking by anyone these days.

But we're not quite there yet...

One thing....it would certainly have the Blacks rattled if we won, and it would send a few messages out to World Rugby...1) We are a genuine team to be wary of now 2) Maybe the Blacks arent as unbeatable as previous teams of the last few years....

So Joe Marler reckons the All Blacks myth has been exposed...

There is no myth about the All Blacks, they are just 15 blokes in a black shirt who are good at rugby- they just have better players than anyone else. If you catch them on an off day or play the game of your life you have a chance against them though. They are often magnificent but never unbeatable. However the fact England DID already catch them on a rare off day and still couldn't turn that into a win makes me think only one thing is going to be exposed in the next two games and it ain't no myth about the All Blacks... there was the golden chance you get every now and again to make history down there and it went begging.

It would be brilliant if we got a repeat of last week with the result being in the balance until the final 10 minutes but I just can't see that happening. At some point in this test series the All Blacks will hit a purple patch England can't live with and rack up 2 or 3 good tries in the space of 10-20 minutes and I don't see England having the firepower to reel them back in after that. At least one game of the next two will be one-sided on the scoreboard in favour of the All Blacks, even if its fairly even in terms of territory and possession, and I think next week will be the one England ship a heavy defeat in.

Lot of positives for England to take from the first test but I can see big improvements for New Zealand and not so many for England. Both sides should improve but the players coming in for England will cause nearly as much disruption as they benefit the team.

disneychilly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:well I said that once yes. Reason being the ABs don't lose with an advantage of the stats England had. I mean they hardly lose anyway but even when they win the stats are not always that compelling.

Ha TM there is an exception to that rule-a certain game we all remember and which I refer to as "The Debacle"

I dunno for me I reckon that while NZ will be a bit better in the pack England with its reinforcements will still hold an edge and harry the ABs. Credit must go to Aaron Smith here as he has learnt to get the ball out when under pressure-he was among the best on the night. But I think that NZ may be more clinical with their passing and handling thus being able to create more pressure on England. I think they only reached five phases once or something (recall reading it somewhere). That's no way to build the pressure. Without a release valve fatigue sets in earlier too.

Side note I hope the crowd's better. Hate it when a couple of mentally derelict yobbos ruin it for everyone else and give NZ supporters a bad name. In a perverse way it's a compliment to how much of a threat England is but it doesn't make it right by any means. Walking out of the Irish NZ test last year we chatted a bit with some Irish folk-they were just gutted and so p!ssed off but they treated us really well. So cheers to Ireland, and sorry to England that it seems some compatriots aren't singing off the same hymn sheet.

Possibly because we can't sing.

I really thought A Smith did very well as well, and far better than Youngs, who looked ponderous...again.

Notch it's probably a bit like the Aussie cricket team a few years ago-with Gilchrist, Warne, Hayden, Ponting and McGrath. NZ have McCaw, Carter (though not this series), Conrad Smith and Read. Sometimes you get one up on the individual but a lot more rarely as a team. Then the other guys in the squad are good enough to make a difference as well. I remember you could definitely win a session against the Aussies, maybe even a day or two, but the test itself was often another matter.

Hansen talked about clutter-maybe NZ will go more direct with a view of upping the intensity around the gainline to build a platform. Risky though since England are capable of winning the physical battle against anyone. The trick is to know when you're coming off second best in an area, swallow your ego and target another area.

NZ kicked a lot last weekend due to there being three fullbacks in their team. But the kicking and chasing was pretty poor-making the kicks seem aimless. They're as good in the air as anyone-outside Folau I'd take Dagg and Jane over everyone else. Look at the 2011 semi. But with Savea back they will kick less-I actually think Hansen will get them to keep it more in hand. Though if England rush a few grubbers will be the order of the day.

Can't say enough about how much Aaron Smith has improved the team. We haven't had that snappy delivery since Bachop (OK Tonu'u but he was pants everywhere else so he doesn't count).

The problem with youngs in my view is that he's fleet of foot but not fleet of mind.. He works out his options then does them, care does it on the hoof/instinctively.. call it what you will. One sets a fast tempo that's hard to defend against, the other allows defences to get set. At least that's how it seems to me.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11272092

One hopes the fans behave if england win, seems there is a growing problem in NZ.

Growing problem or just a few drunk aholes. You're going to get some in a crowd of 45k anywhere, but its a poor show when they target women and children. Hopefully they weed them out, ban them and the good name of AB supporters doesn't get tarnished by a few.

Seen many comments around the "hopefully" minority of mindless All Black fans making a complete nuisance of themselves and not showing the true fans of rugby in the best spirit.

However, if you read the article you will see it doesn't seem to be an isolated incident.

I myself remember attending a Wales v Italy 6 Nations game in the MS and there where a group of Italians behind us, singing, shouting and having a great time. I remember 2 rows in front there where 3 "welsh fans" wearing Cardiff city FC shirts, which already pings them as not being true fans, as why wear a football shirt to a rugby international. They spend most of the game, drinking, facing the Italians behind us (not facing the field at all) and chanting obscenities at them... That was until the lady in front of me (between me and them) asked them very politely to sit down, watch the game or leave. They then turned on her, so I stepped in, but just like a true scrum half, was really glad when 2 6ft 6in BIG guys moved along the row towards the trouble makers and told them to sit down and behave. The 3 of them sat down, had the odd mutter, but left at half time. Which shows they really had no interest being there.

Now, we can all chuck banter in here, as I have seen posted my others. But when the chips are down, do we really want to see the high respect afforded to all rugby fans really be eroded like this... I don't...

I think its time for the Unions, Clubs, Fans (true) to clamp down on this unsociable behaviour and realise its not ok to get so p!ssed up before a game, or hurl abuse at players or opposing fans, use foul language when children are round you, or if asked to curb your language by anyone (men or woman) respect their wishes.

One of the strongest points of this game, is respect for all, and it upsets me when I see it being eroded. It worries me, when the strongest and best nation of the game has such a problem.

If it continues then Rugby as a spectacle will simply die...

disneychilly wrote:We haven't had that snappy delivery since Bachop (OK Tonu'u but he was pants everywhere else so he doesn't count).

Remember Tonu'u's reverse pass missiles? He could fling it across half the pitch. Took me a while to get over him leaving Wellington. Could have had something to do with having Poopie Mannix outside, but had he stayed he could have struck up a formidable partnership with Filo Tiatia. Ah, reminiscing!

No. 9. Given one of the examples was from 6 years ago, it didn't strike me as rife... More a journo collating examples to make a point. Whichever, i agree with the general sentiment.

Forget the first test. It was our 2s/3s. This is the big one. England will play what the coaches believe to be our 1s. Nz will have to be a lot better to live with them.

englandglory4ever wrote:Forget the first test. It was our 2s/3s. This is the big one. England will play what the coaches believe to be our 1s. Nz will have to be a lot better to live with them.

agreed but the 1s will have to live up to the marker set down by the 3rd team, that won't be so easy and NZ will have woken up now. However, i do think the NZ side is creaking and has peaked too early for RWC, with Carter out for this crucial period and Richie spending 80 minutes looking for his slippers the warning bells are tolling, whereas England are clearly in the ascendancy with massive strength in depth.

If England don't take this chance to put them away then they failed on this tour. Is Read fit?

I like it when opposition fans are (over) confident. I imagine the English players are probably as well, without admitting it of course. I don't recall many times when the ABs have been written off like this. Guess a lot (?) has changed since last year when the ABs won every single game including one at Twickers.

Read's not fit. Neither is Dagg so Ben Smith takes his place and Jane goes to 14-his best position as he and Carter have the best fends in world rugby and Jane fends with his left hand.

Messam is the key here. He needs a bloody good game-was world class last year but ineffective last week. This may be his last chance if Read plays the third.

BTW if you're a top test side and your aim is to "live with" another team you may as well go home.

Ah Simon Mannix Mintie. Petone has way more ABs than Hutt Old Boys Marist but we can always chuck that disaster back at them. And the McBain Shield's recent history!

Scratch you think maybe England could be peaking too early if they win the series? Who do England play first btw, Aussie or Wales?

No Read is bad though Kaino was strong.

England haven't peaked at all, in fact despite their clear progress they have failed to win the 6 Nations despite it being there for the taking, but if they win v NZ away and have such obvious advantage in term sof squad size then i expect them to be fairly hard to beat by next autumn, assuming they can finally capitalize on the 6 Nations next year, to fail at that agin could be disastrous

NZ front row need to bring it this week. If Lawes and Hartley come in then i see England being able to gain the edge.

Will be a spectacular test match

Eng play wales first then have a week before aus…while the rest of us get 4/5 day breaks.

I think people are getting over excited
Yes England went well without creating too much and yes if a couple of decisions went the other way we could have won
Yes we have a full squad to choose from
But remember in the second half we hardly had any ball and were stuck in our own half for long periods
Savea should be back and even though they won NZ will be like a rabid dog this match

Kaino kept NZ in it. Read's a loss attack wise but we made do pretty well in the lineouts and restarts. So p!ssed off I'll miss most or all of it.

You're right about the front row-really need to step up. Mind you we don't need to dominate-just give Smith a platform.

Was just joshing about the peaking ha. They're definitely on an upward curve-though if Wales win that game I can see widespread panic amongst the media and fans! (Not the team though they'll be fine).

Gotta get some silverware in the bag though-too good a side not to.

The most significant thing about this test is England selecting the incoming players and expecting to maintain the cohesion and intensity they had last week.

I do disagree with this Geordie:

"Poorfour i just think there is a difference between experienced players who have played at this level on a regular basis and done it...players you can count on as opposed to players who play for their clubs but have never proven anything at this level. "

The AB's proved this very point wrong last week. All those who flopped played sublime club rugby recently and they have been doing test rugby a lot longer and a lot more successfully than any of this English side- unless you believe Englands players somehow have a way of doing this seamlessly that we don't know of. Its not simply about fronting as an individual. Its about familiarity of those around you and getting the old combinations right. Previous weeks have seen Conrad Smith, Nonu, Barrett, Cruden all beating each other up. Its not easy to turn that around in one week, as well as go up a level.

Farrell is for one I expect to have a difficult game, and his goalkicking at Dundin will be interesting, the last one there- Wilko, failing dismally on the ground.

This week there is a hint of an expectation and comments like Marlers simply do not help them, they just serve to paint a great big 'X' on his back. It creates the air of expectation when the facts are that England still couldnt beat a poorly performed NZ side.

Having that air of expectation will have a huge impact on he incoming players so for this match the mindsets are simply wrong. And comments from Social and the normal media writing the AB's off is the worst thing England can have going into this match. In fact those aspects are pleasing to see from a NZ point of view.

Nothing better than seeing an AB side being forced into a corner having to fight its way out...just how we want it.

Agree Tman. Right in the cross hairs. Some English are setting themselves up here. It's uncharacteristic

ebop wrote:I like it when opposition fans are (over) confident. I imagine the English players are probably as well, without admitting it of course. I don't recall many times when the ABs have been written off like this. Guess a lot (?) has changed since last year when the ABs won every single game including one at Twickers.

Thats true ebop but in the same respect the situation was the reverse here a week ago. The S/Media/ media and AB fans had generally written the English side off in many respects last week, and they 'responded'. This week the air of expectation the ABs had has been dumped on the shoulders of the English- mainly the incoming players.

Guys like Farrell are not only playing their first test for a while, they're playing against players wanting revenge for certain aspects the week before, and they're also playing 'instead' of players who had mighty games last week only to be dropped.

Talk about pressure! Love it.

ebop wrote:I like it when opposition fans are (over) confident. I imagine the English players are probably as well, without admitting it of course. I don't recall many times when the ABs have been written off like this. Guess a lot (?) has changed since last year when the ABs won every single game including one at Twickers.

ebop, i should remind you that the majority of the opposition fans aren't actually english. Don't be fooled into thinking they are!

Taylorman wrote:

Farrell is for one I expect to have a difficult game....Having that air of expectation will have a huge impact on he incoming players so for this match the mindsets are simply wrong.

having seen guys put in a performance in their positions... and to have increased expectations on themselves whilst also expecting a 'blacklash'... i'd agree its a pressure cooker environment. Not sure i'd say the mindsets are 'simply wrong'... we'll only be able to second guess the mindsets after the match. I'd very surprised if england were buying the hype. I'm sure it will be getting instilled in them that they can win but, seriously, there ain't any room for complacency... we lost the first test! I think they'll still have a challenger mentality, i hope so. The all blacks  in new zealand? Really... who starts as favourites?

Re Farrell in particular, he didn't finish the season on fire, but he progressed as an international last season, and i have a bit more faith in him than many of my countrymen. I hope that faith isn't blind!

ebop wrote:Agree Tman. Right in the cross hairs. Some English are setting themselves up here. It's uncharacteristic

i think your trying to build it up so when we lose you can have a moan.

nathan wrote:

ebop wrote:Agree Tman. Right in the cross hairs. Some English are setting themselves up here. It's uncharacteristic

i think your trying to build it up so when we lose you can have a moan.

Nah. The English rugby propaganda machine is a thing of beauty and a wonder to behold. A sniff of victory and a team of super heroes instantly emerges, a unexpected loss and and the players have always been failures. Add in the standard questioning of referee competence and the integrity of the opposition. I always thought the English sports fan had it hard given the big swings in the media. I suggest a law requiring prozac be sold with every copy of the Times, Telegraph etc.

milkyboy wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Farrell is for one I expect to have a difficult game....Having that air of expectation will have a huge impact on he incoming players so for this match the mindsets are simply wrong.

having seen guys put in a performance in their positions... and to have increased expectations on themselves whilst also expecting a 'blacklash'... i'd agree its a pressure cooker environment. Not sure i'd say the mindsets are 'simply wrong'... we'll only be able to second guess the mindsets after the match. I'd very surprised if england were buying the hype. I'm sure it will be getting instilled in them that they can win but, seriously, there ain't any room for complacency... we lost the first test! I think they'll still have a challenger mentality, i hope so. The all blacks  in new zealand? Really... who starts as favourites?

Re Farrell in particular, he didn't finish the season on fire, but he progressed as an international last season, and i have a bit more faith in him than many of my countrymen. I hope that faith isn't blind!

yep its all second guessing. Re the mindset it was just Marlers decision to in the one interview outwardly dispel the AB myth, rubbish Hansens comments etc. Ok for us here to do that and he might be right but in terms of having the right frame of mind for the second test just not so sure thats all- mind you, will he be playing?