Woman complains about "feral racism" of Eden Park crowd

First topic message reminder :

A life-long rugby fan says she is "completely and utterly ashamed" of some All Blacks supporters after being subjected to abuse at Eden Park on Saturday.

The woman has returned to New Zealand after living in England with her English husband for 40 years, and has sworn to never attend another rugby game at Eden Park after seeing the behaviour around her at the test.

The couple, who have attended All Blacks tests in Europe and been on a Lions tour of South Africa, have never experienced what she called "downright racist and sexist" remarks to opposition supporters.

Her husband was called a "f****** whingeing Pom", and they left the ground feeling heartbroken by the experience.

Her husband was wearing an England shirt and hat, and was subjected to a torrent of abuse she described as "feral racism" filled with swear-words from some AB supporters.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11270790

It's painful to hear about a few idiots letting the side down. We like to think of rugby supporters being above that kind of mindlessness. It was only recently that World cup organisers were being pilloried for suggesting segregated seating.

I've no doubt that crowds in the halcyon amateur days were very capable of some rough words but you can't help wondering whether some these days are transferring their consequence-free online bile into the real world.

As an aside, I've greatly appreciated reading the thoughts of New Zealand contributors in our recent match day threads. It's been a pleasure not to have to abandon them because of the outbreak of hostilities.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/richard-hibbard-column-adam-named-7237180 wrote:As for those pretty boys in the backs I rather keep my views on those p***ies to myself!

I was over at that thread where this article was mentioned before and ...well................: spoken by a long haired, bleached blonde, mirror-gazing plump bird! Oh the irony of it all, Hibbard. Then again, I think he's well aware of it and is just kicking up some fun.

Its not 'racism'. Just saying

The only bad experience i had with fans was NZ fans at the HK 7s in 2005. Couldn't handle their booze and took it all too seriously losing to Fiji. I am sure that there is not a national problem with it but different cultures have different definitions of racism, different tolerances and different standards of public behavior based on upbringing and education. Frankly though is anything worse than dwarf tossing?

We werent there so dont know if she is just being precious or what. However the fact that she seems like a long time rugby supporter and has attended games before make me believe that there is a fair amount of merit to what she says. Its good if its reported so hopefully decent fans will stamp out that behavior. Ive been involved in some pretty heated banter whilst watching games (only welshman in a belfast rugby club when Wales beat Ireland 2 years ago was pretty good ) but its been good fun, however id be mortified if I misjudged it and left someone feeling intimidated even if I was messing or would be pretty upset if someone went too far with me and my friends/family.

quinsforever wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

quinsforever wrote:or, equally, i dont think anyone would be surprised to read the story as....

+1 - totally agree with you.

Quins & Bandwagon, don't you think that your both showing the dame 'feral racism' that the New Zealand fan did......

not the same at all. not abusive. not swearing. "hokey" reference to eden park crowds was made by the same kiwi posters i am directing my comments to. i'm agreeing it's hokey, but saying that's not an excuse in this day and age, and to malign the abused person is just wrong.

But in your attempt to get your comment across you made a comment saying that this sort of think is acceptable in the NZ hinterlands, but not in the rest of the world where they are actually in the 21st century.  That in itself is insulting the people of that area for being backwards, and behind the times, and IMO as racist as saying someone is a pom (taff, jock, or any other banter-esque term).  It is all down to your perspective, and which side of the fence your sat.

it is patently not racist to suggest that certain parts of a country behave in a manner which would not be acceptable in most of the rest of the developed world. key points are i) i refer only to part of NZ, ii) suggesting they are out-of-date in their attitudes in no way is racist.you cant be racist when talking about people of the same race incidentally. that would be nationalist, xenophobic or just rude. now i dont know if the lady mentioned in the article used the racist word because she felt she was being abused by people who were not of her "race". Either way i think she shouldnt have used it as it reveals some of her own potential fears or biases. I certainly didnt use that word. Fact is there is clearly an issue at AB matches as subsequent posts have shown. i dont think its about race, i think its about acceptable behaviour. but its there.

Quins I read your comment to say that All Newzealanders behave in a manner which would not be acceptable in most of the developed World. If you were only refering to certain parts of New Zealand, then perhaps you might want to share with the rest of us where these certain parts of New Zealand are. r

I feel embarrased that this incident took place in Auckland, I can tell you that not all of us Aucklanders are like the offenders here, and no way can it be in any way excused, However you also should not take adv antage of this incident and use it as some sort of opportunity to abuse and insult all of us Kiwis, dont be a muppet.

You all got the original title wrong anyway. What it actually said was: Feral Woman eats Racist at Eden Park.

That's a whole new prespective and I think it might even show her up in a bad light of sorts herself.

SecretFly wrote:You all got the original title wrong anyway.  What it actually said was:  Feral Woman eats Racist at Eden Park.

That's a whole new prespective and I think it might even show her up in a bad light of sorts herself.

And in the story I heard the racist complained.

As was his right!!!!!   

and most understandably so ..

the muppets are those who automatically assume the lady referred to in the article was either making it up or making a mountain out of a molehill. and if you read my original comment you will understand it is they to whom i am referring

"but slamming the woman for talking about her experience afterward is pretty narrow-minded. that might be okay down in the nz hinterlands, but it doesn't cover you with glory in the rest of the world which is actually in the 21st century."

read the whole thread and you will see who my comments are addressed to. every country has its hicks. even 606 apparently.

Hmmm... I'm just wondering, why should a person feel more offended at being racially abused than they might feel at being 'hick' abused - or told they're backward, cajuns, hillfolk, inbred trailer trash etc?

How come someone who gets attacked for the colour of their skin, or the Nation of their birth is more entitled to be offended than the hick down the road on the pavement with his beer and his bad language and his uneducated sense of cardboardboxism?

No...nobody need try to answer that one.  It's a rhetorical one.  Think about it - I know I always do.
"You're bein' racist against me, you dumb, nationalist, hick, illiterate, smallminded sleazeball!"

acting like a hick isnt a crime, it's part of the dna. just as acting like a toff is also.

acting like a racist can land you in jail, certainly in England & Wales.

society and the law have decided they are indeed quite different.

Society doesn't have emotion.  

Offence is offence.  

A person feels what they feel...regardless of the law saying they have a right or don't have the right to be offended.

Calling a hick a hick is as offensive to him as it is to a toff getting called a toff.

You're proving the point I'm making.  Some insults are legally less serious than others but the target is still equally personally offended.

Society and Law ain't people.

I've recently been on one of those 'equality in the workplace' courses, and it is quite frightening when they tell you what you can actually be pulled up for.

For example, if you have a homosexual mate and have banter with them about their sexuality (and they are perfectly happy with it), you can still be pulled up for making homophobic comments (even though your homosexual mate is fine with it) if someone else in the workplace hears you, even if they are straight, and takes offence. And apparently trying to use the "it is not inequality, I abuse everyone" argument is no defence. Also the amount of things you can be an -ist for is shocking.

you asked what the difference was. i am telling you how society differentiates.

all offences are most definitely not equal SF. that's why the law punishes some and not others. i can call someone a hick and he can call me a toff till the cows come home and the law will have nothing to say. if i make a racist comment, and someone catches it on camera, i can almost certainly expect a visit from the police. it's that simple.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I've recently been on one of those 'equality in the workplace' courses, and it is quite frightening when they tell you what you can actually be pulled up for.

For example, if you have a homosexual mate and have banter with them about their sexuality (and they are perfectly happy with it), you can still be pulled up for making homophobic comments (even though your homosexual mate is fine with it) if someone else in the workplace hears you, even if they are straight, and takes offence.  And apparently trying to use the "it is not inequality, I abuse everyone" argument is no defence.  Also the amount of things you can be an -ist for is shocking.

all very true. there are rules in the workplace that are far stricter than in normal society, because if the employer doesnt take steps to prevent certain behaviour, the employer itself can be sued for creating an "fill in your favourite"-ist environment.

I'm pretty sure 'fill in your favourite'-ism is ok, but 'boot out a muppet'-ism is not.

quinsforever wrote:you asked what the difference was. i am telling you how society differentiates.

all offences are most definitely not equal SF. that's why the law punishes some and not others. i can call someone a hick and he can call me a toff till the cows come home and the law will have nothing to say. if i make a racist comment, and someone catches it on camera, i can almost certainly expect a visit from the police. it's that simple.

I know the deal Quins and I said it was all a rhetorical question about the philosophy behind the idea that a personalised attack/abuse is not considered as legally prohibitive as a racial one.  I'm not questioning the truth of the legal distinction but I do often question the correctness of it.
We constantly want to regulate ourselves as 'societies' - what is legal in general societal terms outweighing what might be offensive in individual terms.  We create the idea of society - make it almost self-controlling and self-perpetuating, and then we question why the term 'racist' keeps being problematic.

It's problematic because is sectionalises individuals - just as Society does.  The concept of society itself creates the ideas of racism, toffdom and hickness that society seems to hate so much.  And society, as I said, has so many 'opinions' on the topic and yet in reality hasn't a blessed emotion to work with.

Be careful of 'society'.  It's a dictator of sorts.

I still think the most important thing in this story is context of the situation. Those handing out the abuse thought of it as a laugh (probably), which is fair enough given it was in a rugby crowd. If they saw it was upsetting someone stop it and apologise don't continue as 'it's all part of the spectable'. I'm obviously joining the dots as there's a lot about it we don't know. It would be sad if we accept that banter is always acceptable and just ignore those on the receiving end who aren't viewing it as such. I wouldn't say this case is racism but it is verging on bullying.

i actually agree with you SF.

i guess that western european and US societies are attempting to right the wrongs of their own pasts and are identifying racist offences as worse than any other.

but it is true in this respect and many others that societies occasionally veer into dangerous overcompensation territory. witness the current birmingham schools debacle which came about as a result of nobody wanting to act as it would have been perceived as racist.

these things hopefully have a way of working themselves out in the end though.

Quins, most countries (so I presume England) define Racism as being descrimination against any group of people not only based on skin colour,race etc, but also nationality, which is what you did.

Your comments were made to be intentionally hurtful, to be derogatory and offensive to all New Zealanders. to claim you are superior is no less descriminatory as describing others inferior.

Think about it.

Quins, I think you may be calling me a hick, just joining the dots. I've said above that abusing someone is not acceptable anywhere.

My point is.

"It's not really news"

So stop being sanctimonious.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Quins, most countries (so I presume England) define Racism as being descrimination against any group of people not only based on skin colour,race  etc, but also nationality, which is what you did.

Your comments were made to be intentionally hurtful, to be derogatory  and offensive to all New Zealanders. to claim you are superior is no less descriminatory as describing  others inferior.

Think about it.

don't worry about reading what i actually wrote there laurie. you just carry on getting the hump and picking a fight with a strawman of your own invention.

  

As game is to be played in Dunedin I'm sure the crowd will be behaved.
Otago people pride ourselves on southern hospitality .
But if a few d!ckheads are ... d!ckheads dont judge us all by their actions.
Rugby is (will be) the winner on Saturday.
Game on.

 

The unfortunate thing about situations like this is the bad experiences are what people are most likely to talk about.

The good experiences don't really get airtime.

I suspect for every one bad experience there are 1000 good ones.

Some people just behave like planks, but they are in the minority

Biltong wrote:The unfortunate thing about situations like this is the bad experiences are what people are most likely to talk about.

The good experiences don't really get airtime.

I suspect for every one bad experience there are 1000 good ones.

Some people just behave like planks, but they are in the minority

The other thing to remember, and I am not saying that it happened in this situation, is that some people also have a tendency to have a really good time somewhere but highlight the negatives when they talk about it. We all know at least one person who can go out for a lovely meal, go to a cracking game/show/movie, and then the first thing they say to you is "jeeze, those toilets in the bar we dirty" or "the beer was expensive" etc.

Sorry but I think this is important to talk about and not dismiss. I've never experienced this or witnessed this kind of interaction at a rugby match. Ever. Or hurling for that matter. From the feedback here neither have any of you.

I think that it's important to try to stamp out abusive comments hurled at visiting fans, either racist or just obnoxious, because if the culture in a sport shifts, either amongst spectators or players changes then it's very hard to change it back. I won't go so far as to say when somethings gone it's gone forever but at some point in the past football fans everywhere all sat together in stadiums too and didn't try shout abuse at each other or beat each other up after a game. (And yes I know that this is rare now thankfully but it is sometimes a real problem) Women and children went to matches. Cultures shift. If you can catch this shift somehow before it reaches a tipping point then you might be able to prevent it.

If you don't care about the culture changing for the worse think about the clubs bank balance. As soon as there is bad behavior at stadiums, even occasionally, women go less and children don't go at all. That's less money coming in for clubs and unions, and more testosterone which probably doesn't help moderate things.

Yeah but the money is in TV audiences so it doesn't really matter if you are thinking about the money

It's not good to hear of incidents like this at rugby.

But what I really disliked about this thread was the way some have made out the victim of abuse and intimidation to be at fault. A Kiwi lady, proud of her country and the ABs has been dismissed as a whinging pom and therefore the incident is nothing or her fault.

Crude, unpleasant and wrong.