England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

First topic message reminder :

With the Anderson/Jadeja spat in the rear view mirror, we can all move on.

England name an unchanged squad, I'd be surprised if Plunkett didn't play, whether its at the expense of Jordan or Broad is the biggest question. Imagine they'll have planned on resting Broad at some stage.

I think my message read "on form", the ICC rankings are an abomination, how we're only a fraction ahead of a team that lost eight times last year (since 2011, we've lost half that amount). Anyway, Australia won 7 from eight, which is only one less than England have won under Cook. Check

South Africa - unbeaten away in eight years, won a series in Lanka. Check

Sri Lanka - Won in England. Check.

Pakistan - I mean, seriously, when last did they lose a home series? Check.

The only doubt I had was New Zealand, but they beat India, and the West Indies... debatable.

so on form, fifth or sixth, maybe sixth or seventh.

CaledonianCraig wrote:This test is England's to win as it stands. They will perhaps build a lead of about 100 after the first innings and that will prove too much for India with Anderson and Broad to face again. Even if England have 100 to chase down in the final innings the batsmen now appear far more confident and there won't be any jitters.

100 would be a disappointing lead here.

mystiroakey wrote:

Olly wrote:If I had to put together a combined England/New Zealand team this would be it

Cook
Williamson
Taylor
Bell
Ballance
Needham
McCullum 
Southee
Broad
Boult
Anderson

So I'd have one more NZ player. If we weren't accepting McCullum as WK I'd remove Ballance, have McCullum as batsman/skipper and Watling as wicket keeper

Taylor over ballance - and then ballance over root.. No.

Ballance at 3 root at 5 and bell at 4.

Don't think you can leave Taylor out mysti, he's averaging 46/47 in near enough 60 tests. Quality player

Duty281 wrote:

Olly wrote:Think people need to just hold back on England being back just yet. Doing better and encouraging signs, but there's a long old way to go in this match and series.

England's quality has never been in doubt, for me. They fell apart off the field in the winter leading to a colossal cricketing disaster. The negative mental effects that stemmed from that led to England scrambling and stuttering for the first part of the summer, but now they are starting to find their feet once more, and playing to their level.

I think we'll have to disagree on this one my friend, England have some talented players coming in for sure, but the balance of the side isn't great without a proper front line spinner yet, and there's still issues to be resolved. Maybe 2/3 years down the line once these youngsters have more experience under there belts we'll be among the top two again.

Olly,

You are adjusting the teams positions to suit your objective.

It's ballance v Taylor at no.3

Ballance is in the better form.

Root for me beats ballance at no.5 anyway because he is an all round shot maker that can adapt to the in game situation.

You are adjusting the positions of the players.

Ballance beats Taylor to 3.

I am not sure what kiwi plays at number 5 of the top of my head but as root beats ballance there . He has to go there and he plays there.

I love Gary Ballance, but there's no way he beats Ross Taylor at 3 mainly cos Ross Taylor doesn't bat 3, Kane Williamson does. And Williamson would beat Ballance for me.

I was just picking a "best team" between the two sides. Thus no spinner in sight! 

Ballance or Root is pretty even for me, though I know you're a huge root fan

Surely you are talking form. And Williamson is not a good batter. He really would never come close to an England side.

An average of 40. Come on?

mystiroakey wrote:Surely you are talking form. And Williamson is not a good batter. He really would never come close to an England side.

An average of 40. Come on?

I really like Williamson, he's developing into a very good player only 23. Probably a bit of a preference pick

I'd quite like to see his stats in his last 15 or so tests, but cricinfo isn't working for me, is it down?

It must be you. It's working fine

But as you know. I am not bells biggest fan.although he is back on form and the sexiest batsmen out of both teams..

My 345 would actually be ballance Taylor and then root. ( as Taylor is no 4 normally)

That has to the be the batting line up.

Is mcculum nz's no. 5.. He averages 37

End of the day cricket is like any other sport - a lot of it is won and lost in the mind. England lost it big time last winter and too much was evidently going on behind the scenes and so England were in disarray whilst Australia were ravenously hungry for success. Such was the scale of that hammering there was always going to be mental scars and a knock-on effect. It also saw the breaking up of a side that had previously served England well. All of that had the knock-on effect in the series V Sri Lanka and the start of the India series. The batting line-up was out of form (talismanic players Trott (was finished), Cook (in the worst form of his career), Bell (in a bad run of form), Prior (couldn't buy a score for love nor money) and the bowlers were not on the money. It is inevitable when you have all that going on PLUS a new management team taking over PLUS losing key players from the squad that this will have a knock-on effect on field and that is how it has proved.

The last test and today shows England perhaps coming out of that dark tunnel now. Batsmen are rediscovering form and bowlers are back in form but obviously some way still to go. They need to work hard to find a quality spinner and find/settle on a potent third/fourth seamer and try and find a consistent opener to partner Cook.

Sure England have problems but things are not as bleak now as they were a fortnight or so ago.

I know we are a pessimistic bunch on the whole ( bar duty and occasionally me) but the truth is the 5-0 battering didn't mean we went from a top side ( best bar SA) to the 7th worst.

We had issues going on and we were not happy as a team. But the truth is form is temporary and class is permanent. We have class players. Aus didn't become 10 times better than us and the teams that beat us after didn't become better than us.

If our players perform at 75% we are a good team.

If we play to that level and say aus lost Mitch or he didn't perform . I would back us to be competitive and beat them on home turf.

If both sides played to 100% there is nothing between us.

Duty shall always keep his chin up.

I said after India's win that everyone should lump on England to win the series at 4/1. I lumped £100...I shall forever regret not putting more on if said result does materialise.

If you feel that way duty. No disrespect, just giving some honest advice. You shouldn't bet big amounts, just stick to smaller bets.

Never ever regret not betting more.. You will end up losing in the long run..

I remember once when I was on a 20k win. 7 results in and England were 2-1 up and had the only later game( we conceded a goal in extra time) I ended up only being able to lay a certain amount of before hand

I won 2k , I could have won 18k either way if I had the exposure to do so.

I was so gutted I lost the lot in a week.

Only gamble if you never regret the decision... Sorry to sound like a boring tw&t..

I once knew someone who was a manager at a bank. He had access to the cash point money..

One day he thought he was on a sure thing. He took 500 and made a bet. He lost. He ended up making more and more stupid bets to make the money back so he could reconcile the books before year end. He ended up taking 250k , every penny lost at the bookies. During that time he was offered an area managers job on twice the money. He couldn't take it or someone would find out what he had done.

In the end he got caught. His saving grace was that it all reconciled back that he lost it all gambling (blamed in on an addiction which in truth it was ) and only got 1 year in jail.

But his life was ruined as a result.


Sorry for the lecture...

Duly noted, ta.   

I always endeavour to be careful, only bet what you have, and take the winnings straight into the bank account just so I do not succumb to temptation and make a reckless bet.

Only regret with this bet is that I were going to bet £150, but reined in my instincts somewhat.

Hey ho, it is only money!

mystiroakey wrote:Nz better , you are actually joking right?

Ok England may have only just got back to a bit of form. But tell me how many kiwis would get in the England team?

If we want to be harsh but fair. All the teams are equally as bad bar South Africa and aus(pak,sl,ind,eng,nz)

However a few decent result means nothing to the fragile Aussies. I wouldn't back against England beating them 5-0 next time.. They are very fragile. If the big boys in England come good like cook,bell,jimmy and broad, add ballance Ali and root and tbh , England are better.

Tim Southee and Trent Boult would make most sides in the world. Ross Taylor and Kane Williamson can easily make it to this English side, particularly if KW is bowling as well.

If we accept those, that makes a composite team 7-4 in favour of England

ChequeredJersey wrote:If we accept those, that makes a composite team 7-4 in favour of England

Well as of this moment Tom Latham would get ahead of Robson opening, and Jimmy neesham ahead of woakes all rounder and watling ahead of buttler at keeper

mystiroakey wrote:Olly,

You are adjusting the teams positions to suit your objective.

It's ballance v Taylor at no.3

Ballance is in the better form.

Root for me beats ballance at no.5 anyway because he is an all round shot maker that can adapt to the in game situation.

You are adjusting the positions of the players.

Ballance beats Taylor to 3.

I am not sure what kiwi plays at number 5 of the top of my head but as root beats ballance there . He has to go there and he plays there.

Taylor bats at 4 for NZ. He has more or less similar overall record to that of Ian Bell though Taylor at the moment is just ahead. But strikingly, Taylor is a quality player in spinning conditions as well. If an adjustment has to be made in the combined side, then it will be Bell at 3 and Taylor at 4, and I'll have young Joe in at 5. And BJ Watling to keep wickets.

Cook
Latham
Bell
Taylor
Williamson (Led spinner)
Neesham
Watling
Southee
Broad
Boult
Anderson

Why are we building a NZ-Eng composite team?

kingraf wrote:Why are we building a NZ-Eng composite team?

The question is why not

Anyways back on the match, the late wicket yesterday has given India a small lifeline. If there is some helpful overhead conditions in the morning and Bhuvi gets going, India can still hope to restrict England to a lead of around 120- 130...... But if England get away in the morning, it will be a long, long day out in the field.

Anything over 300 and India are in trouble I think. Rain around mind.

We need to get moving quickly. There could only be another 1.5 days cricket if this storm comes along.. Get a 200 lead fast and then try and bowl them out for less.

I wouldn't even bat beyond 350. There may not be enough time left in the game

Play the ball, not the weather.

Play the weather if the situation dictates it.

being 40 behind their total with 7 wickets allows you to take a risk and play agrresively

And if we start swinging and add 60 more? Game on batting last in potentially adverse batting conditions.

Play the situation as it stands. We trail India by 40 runs with 7 first wickets in hands on the morning of day 2. Establish a lead and bat them out the game. Worry about rain if and when it turns up.

and then we end up drawing when we could have won?

Nah - lets smash them. Jordan is in so he may as well have a go. Bell was going at almost a 100 SR anyway!!

If root comes in quick he will steady the ship anyway. Once we get to about 200 i say bash it.

We have the 2 best bowlers by a mile in these conditions. I can not see India posting past 200 2nd innings.

Rather end up drawing when we could have won than losing when we could've won. You play the game as it stands, rather than projecting weather delays.

No you don't. You play game as you want to. There is no set rule. If there was captaincy would be irrelevant.

Rain / storm predicted ?
well then India needs to let them score 450 and let time run out

Fine, if you want to play smart, you play the game as it stands.

KP_fan wrote:Rain / storm predicted ?
well then India needs to let them score 450 and let time run out

Exactly

I agree that you shouldn't play for the weather, especially when we are talking about forecasts more than 48 hours in advance.

However If England can get a lead of 175 (ish) maybe getting bowled out is not the worse thing that can happen. Move the game along naturally and takes the do you don't you element out of the deceleration timing.

KP_fan wrote:Rain / storm predicted ?
well then India needs to let them score 450 and let time run out

Would be great if India "let" England score runs. With the weather being predicting about, England would probably pull out way before the 450 target you would have Indias let England score. All that you would have done would be to allow England to reach their deceleration total quicker!

In any case, I heard yesterday the storm was set to miss England altogether I think.

Which kind of backs up why you shouldn't play for the weather.

See out the opening period, establish a lead, then they'll naturally step on the gas pedal after lunch as India tire and bat India out the game. No sense giving India a way back into this match.

India bowling is not bad....Pankaj needs to bowl a tight line and length, he will produce wkt taking deliveries.

the best case for Ind is to limit lead to 70odd which is tought but within the realms of possible

I agree KPF. England need to knuckle down this morning and bat past India.

Get to lunch having lost 1 or 2 wickets and 30 or so ahead would be a decent session

Play the situation, not the potential weather. The Weather Channel says it will rain all day, whilst the BBC believe the rain will hold off until 15:00 at the earliest. Which do you believe?

Just bat. There's plenty of time.

Weather dry, currently, so the second day should start on time. Very unlikely to get a full uninterrupted day, however.

Now its predicted Saturday will be absolutely fine.

This is why you should never play the weather. Can't control, can't predict it with great certainty, just play the game.

Not what I just heard.

Play to the in game situ. We bowled them out for 150. We need to convert it into a win. Get to 350 declare. Bowl them out. Move on

I would say that England should bat for as long as they can. All today and tomorrow if you can...unlikely though! Somewhere in the region of 380-420, where I think England will end up, will be golden.

http://www.bbc.com/weather/2643123

weather looks fine for Saturday, but dodgy for the rest of the Test. While you don't captain by weather forecast, it is something you should probably take into account. I don't think England should just go out and slog, but they should look to be positive. They probably don't need much more than 300 to be in a very strong position, it's not one of these pitches where they need 450+

At the same time though, if England bat to 450 (fingers crossed) they'll save time by realistically batting once.

I agree Chelsea.. The last two days look bad and today we may only get half a day. Bat well , and really try to get to 350. No point getting more. It will end in a draw

50 for Bell, nice fluent innings from him .

Fifty for Bell, in a breezy style.

He got himself in yesterday, now he needs to do it again as there are runs waiting to be had out there.

He was in from the off duty. He took no time about it... Seems to be in already again .. Come on bell