Munster V Edinburgh - GPro 12 Round 1

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Munster V Edinburgh

Friday 5th September 2014
KO 19:35
Thomond Park

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU, 41st competition game)
Assistant Referees: Nigel Correll, John Carvill (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (IRFU)
TMO: Jude Quinn (IRFU)
Live on TG4 / BBA ALBA

23 Wins 6
75 Tries 42
696 Points 443
27 Average age 26

Results last year:

Munster 34 - Edinburgh 23
Ednburgh 12 - Munster 55

Pre Season form:

Munster 17 - London Irish 5
Gloucester 45 - Munster 8

Edinburgh 10 - Leicester 11
Newcastle 15 - Edinburgh 21

Teams:

Munster
  
15 Ronan O'Mahony
14 Andrew Conway
13 Johne Murphy
12 Andrew Smith
11 Simon Zebo
10 Ian Keatley
9 Duncan Williams

1 John Ryan
2 Kevin O'Byrne
3 BJ Botha
4 Donncha O'Callaghan
5 Billy Holland
6 CJ Stander
7 Sean Dougall
8 Shane Buckley

16 Duncan Casey
17 Alan Cotter
18 Stephen Archer
19 Dave Foley
20 Tommy O'Donnell
21 Cathal Sheridan
22 Johnny Holland
23 Ivan Dineen

Edinburgh
 
15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser

10 Greig Tonks
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford (Captain)
3 John Andress
4 Fraser McKenzie
5 Ollie Atkins
6 Tomas Leonardi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Cornell Du Preez

16 James Hilterbrand
17 Rory Sutherland
18 W P Nel
19 Ben Toolis
20 Mike Coman
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Nick McLennan
23 Phil Burleigh

Ulsters reserves (not exaggerating- all clear first choices were rested) knocked them over last time out. Before that, Glasgow. Munster looking pedestrian in league games isn't some new trend thats emerging just now, it's been happening for a long while.

BigGee wrote:
I think it is going to be a very different league this year, truly competitive. The Irish sides may well have to take all the games a bit more seriously now. This may be a warning to them what might happen if they don't. Munster will probably still be ahead of Edinburgh at the end of the season, but you have only got to lose one or two games at home and suddenly the aura is gone. In previous years sides went to Thomund hoping for a losing bonus point at best. If sides start going there genuinely thinking they will win, it puts a different complexion on things. This can only be a good thing for the league.

True about the very real possibility of a different, much more competitive dynamic this year.  Certainly the new qualifying details will inevitably change the texture of how Pro12 develops.

BUT.... my point about Munster would be that 'managing' a season (pacing in both intensity and individual best form) is now probably even more important than before.  I think Irish sides have always taken all the games seriously - but very much on a relativistic basis. Sometimes taking the gamers seriously meant full blooded 80 minutes of intensity, other times the serious work was to contain the energy whilst still trying to pull off wins.

I still don't think the 'best' sides (habitually) will intend to go flat out for as long as they can.  Nope, they'll still try to manage the season to have best form when things matter most.  Munster and other sides will still try to be smart about when they play their best rugby but it'll be simply more of a dangerous gamble than perhaps it once was.

A balance will have to be struck by the need to win games but also the need to conserve best players (both in terms of injury and best form).  And since it's the first year of the new Pro12 conditions, that balancing act will be tricky.  Play too hard in the first half of the season and you risk being drained by the closing stages.  Don't play hard enough and....................... well, yes, the 2015 Pro12 Leader board could look quite different to the usual one.

JonnyEdinburgh wrote:noticed irnbru say "kick for the corner!" earlier on this page.  

Hey, welcome to this crazy place!

I was slightly manic at that point, but it occurred that winning the match by four points is not really any better than by one point, that a lineout would retain possession in the right part of the pitch, and if the Edinburgh forwards 'did a Munster' and moved to the line at a glacial pace, a fair bit of time would have been used up.

I know it's game 1 and rust is to be expected and it was largely 2nd stringers out there but that was worryingly bad from Munster. They're not my team but I've watched them a lot over the last 15 years and I can't think of a worse performance ever. And for that to be in Thomond, hard to believe. From an irish perspective I hope it's just a blip but feels a bit ominous. What do the Munster fans think, am I being a bit melodramatic?

I'm not clear on this 'pacing' concept - is that something subconscious in the players or are the coaches telling them to take it easy?

'lads I want 70% effort in the first half, 80% in the second and we'll be grand'

How does that work?

To me the players need to play 100% whenever picked, and the pacing comes by rotating players in and out of the squad.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not clear on this 'pacing' concept - is that something subconscious in the players or are the coaches telling them to take it easy?

'lads I want 70% effort in the first half, 80% in the second and we'll be grand'

How does that work?

To me the players need to play 100% whenever picked, and the pacing comes by rotating players in and out of the squad.

Thats the way I tend to see it as well. It is a long season and you can't play all your first choice players in every game, hence the need for a squad and genuine competition for places within it. Giving some of the understudies a chance to stake their places in the team, it keeps them hungry and keeps the top players on their toes as well as keeping them fresh. Edinburgh last year had a squad that the coach clearly did not think a great deal of and would not play many of them (even established internationals). The result of that was that they were out on their feet towards the end of the season. The art of rotation is to be able to do it without obvoiusly weakening the team. That is not easy and it did not look as if munster managed it last ngiht. I would imagine that they would have been expecting an easier game than that. I go back to my point about the league being more competitive this year. This may not be the only shock they get.

That was a great performance from Edinburgh. The tight 5, especially Andress were outstanding.

As I said earlier whats realy encouraging is the defence. Trully we might be a force to reckon with this year after some seasons in the doldrums

Just watched match, very impressed with Edinburgh.

Pack scrummaged well, abrasive at the breakdown. Watson looks like he could be a great wee open-side and Du Preez is class.

Good defence throughout.

And the best thing is they'll be stronger with the likes of Gilchrist, Bresler, Denton, Scott, Tonks involved.

A belated welcome to JonnyE. Sad to see you have been drawn to the Dark Side. Come over to the west side; it's a much better story there and Pheasant sandwiches are optional.

You learn something new every day reading the Irish Independent rugby match reports:

Trailing by four at the break, Foley shuffled his pack by bringing Ivan Dineen into the centre and shifting Murphy to full-back, but despite a positive start it was the Scots who were celebrating as they extended their lead.

That was despite going down to 13 men for a period when Chris Fusaro joined his back-row colleague in the bin for a cynical infringement after another Zebo break, but again Keatley kicked to touch and the maul came to nothing. Instead, the try came at the other end as Williams' attempted off-load in his own half went badly wrong, allowing Heathcote to feed Visser and Beard chipped neatly in behind for Jack Cuthbert to score.

Congratulations Edinburgh, well done.

Looks like I was right. It was going to be very close.
Munster have some serious problems to sort out and fairly quickly.

George Carlin wrote:You learn something new every day reading the Irish Independent rugby match reports:

Trailing by four at the break, Foley shuffled his pack by bringing Ivan Dineen into the centre and shifting Murphy to full-back, but despite a positive start it was the Scots who were celebrating as they extended their lead.

That was despite going down to 13 men for a period when Chris Fusaro joined his back-row colleague in the bin for a cynical infringement after another Zebo break, but again Keatley kicked to touch and the maul came to nothing. Instead, the try came at the other end as Williams' attempted off-load in his own half went badly wrong, allowing Heathcote to feed Visser and Beard chipped neatly in behind for Jack Cuthbert to score.

GC, I know Fozzie likes to get his tackles in early but that's ridiculous.

jimbopip wrote:

George Carlin wrote:You learn something new every day reading the Irish Independent rugby match reports:

Trailing by four at the break, Foley shuffled his pack by bringing Ivan Dineen into the centre and shifting Murphy to full-back, but despite a positive start it was the Scots who were celebrating as they extended their lead.

That was despite going down to 13 men for a period when Chris Fusaro joined his back-row colleague in the bin for a cynical infringement after another Zebo break, but again Keatley kicked to touch and the maul came to nothing. Instead, the try came at the other end as Williams' attempted off-load in his own half went badly wrong, allowing Heathcote to feed Visser and Beard chipped neatly in behind for Jack Cuthbert to score.

GC, I know Fozzie likes to get his tackles in early but that's ridiculous.

Doesn't bode well, does it?

A good openside should never be penalised.
Fozzy was apparently sinbinned whilst 52 miles from the pitch.

That's rubbish play.

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but the loss to Edinburgh was the third home loss in a row. The first time Munster have ever lost 3 home games in a row.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but the loss to Edinburgh was the third home loss in a row.  The first time Munster have ever lost 3 home games in a row.

Mental weakness, that's what it is.

But seriously, it's not crisis time yet for Munster (they were one kick away from playing badly but still winning) - they were just sloppy and lacked their usual control. Foley will know that his team should still be putting away any opposition that spends 20 minutes with only 14 men on the field. I think a bounceback hammering will be dished out to Treviso.

Sin é wrote:Congratulations Edinburgh, well done.

Looks like I was right. It was going to be very close.
Munster have some serious problems to sort out and fairly quickly.

We was shoite...some seriously bad performances (except for CJ ).

Edinburgh fully deserving of the win...

Ref was bewildering at times for both sides....

First half he showed Edinburgh what staying in the UK would mean. From about the 30th minute of the first half he showed them what would happen if they leave the Union. About right considering the polls.

Foley described the game as a 'battle' that Edinburgh won - when have Edinburgh ever been more physical than anyone, never mind Munster??

I thought Embra were already more physical than ever last season but it was great to see it lasted 80 min this time round.

Really impressed by Andress both in the loose and the tight, hopefully we will see more of him (well lets hope Nel doesn't play 80min every game from now on...)

Munster need their best players available whenever they play in TP now to generate interest in the games. The attendance was simply unacceptable.

Maybe they could be like the French and rotate for away games.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Munster need their best players available whenever they play in TP now to generate interest in the games. The attendance was simply unacceptable.

Maybe they could be like the French and rotate for away games.

Unacceptable??

To put things into perspective, 13400 would be one of Edinburgh's biggest ever crowds!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Munster need their best players available whenever they play in TP now to generate interest in the games. The attendance was simply unacceptable.

Maybe they could be like the French and rotate for away games.

Unacceptable??

To put things into perspective, 13400 would be one of Edinburgh's biggest ever crowds!

That is counting season ticket holders who only buy them to guarantee their seats for the HC games. There was barley 5k there from the looks of things (couldn't even fill the terrace which is unheard of). Connacht will be getting bigger crowds in a couple of years the way things are going.

I did think 13400 was a bit adventurous - as you say it certainly didn't look (or sound ) like that.

There was about 10K there.

We certainly need better combinations of player, whether we need to have our strongest team out all the time is debatable. Our back row was relatively poor (except for CJ)) as was our centrefield (andrew who?). Keatley was weak etc...

There was no where near 10k there. It looked like a similar crowd to the 7s tournament held in the summer which was around 5-6k.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Munster need their best players available whenever they play in TP now to generate interest in the games. The attendance was simply unacceptable.

Maybe they could be like the French and rotate for away games.

Unacceptable??

To put things into perspective, 13400 would be one of Edinburgh's biggest ever crowds!

That is counting season ticket holders who only buy them to guarantee their seats for the HC games. There was barley 5k there from the looks of things (couldn't even fill the terrace which is unheard of). Connacht will be getting bigger crowds in a couple of years the way things are going.

Friday night games are a major issue. Its going to get worse once the long winter nights come in. Unless you live or work in Limerick, its a waste of time trying to get there for a Friday night game.

Nah it was closer to 10. The main stand was fairly full (you couldnt see that on the tv)....

Anyhow dont preach to the converted our attendances are not good and are dropping the rugby public in Cork has been dicked over since 2003 and now that the good times are gone reality is setting in with regards to the insistence in going the traditional route (through the clubs) for tickets and limiting the supporters club. Leinster were way smarter how they approached it.

Fair enough. It really is a worry how fast the decline has been as it wasn't long ago Munster got 20k against the Ospreys in the league and now they can't even sell out games against Leinster (20k last season)

Hopefully there is no more Friday night games.

A few more bad results and poor performances and...well you aint seen nothing yet. The HEC/RCC will get a bounce given the teams involved but if we dont qualify for the QF...then sayonara..

Four out of five of our next home games in the Murphys Pro 12 are on a Friday including Munster v Ulster...bloody brilliant.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Fair enough. It really is a worry how fast the decline has been as it wasn't long ago Munster got 20k against the Ospreys in the league and now they can't even sell out games against Leinster (20k last season)

Hopefully there is no more Friday night games.

That was down to the low take-up from Leinster. Leinster took less than 800. Leinster fans are like the Dubs, they don't like travelling outside of Dublin.

ME-109 wrote:A few more bad results and poor performances and...well you aint seen nothing yet. The HEC/RCC will get a bounce given the teams involved but if we dont qualify for the QF...then sayonara..

6,800 at this fixture in Musgrave last season.

Please tell me that is a joke ME... Why all these Friday night games?!?

Sin, even still those games used to always sell out and even 800 is still quite a lot of travelling support for a pro12 game.
I know it would never happen but it would be great if the newly redeveloped paric Ui Chaoimh got some big games.

Sin é wrote:

ME-109 wrote:A few more bad results and poor performances and...well you aint seen nothing yet. The HEC/RCC will get a bounce given the teams involved but if we dont qualify for the QF...then sayonara..

6,800 at this fixture in Musgrave last season.

Its a cumulative thing Sin and you know it. The decision to put all our eggs in one basket in 2003 and the subsequent development of the shiny shed is = Marketing 101 Fail. The Cork crowd travel to Limerick the Limerick crowd dont travel (who would blame them given the games being offered). The insistence in keeping the ticket allocation within the clubs during the good times for the HC = no attempt to build support. In addition the insistence in playing second string teams in Cork for a couple of seasons (with poor results) with the Scarlets game being the only big one had meant that outside of the season ticket holders there is no draw. I predicted it back when the Shiny shed was being developed that without major development in Cork/Musser then this would happen. Its not even down to the Cork/Limerick thing its just basic marketing and demographics/population.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Please tell me that is a joke ME... Why all these Friday night games?!?

Sin, even still those games used to always sell out and even 800 is still quite a lot of travelling support for a pro12 game.
I know it would never happen but it would be great if the newly redeveloped paric Ui Chaoimh got some big games.

If they had the balls what should have happened is they should have gone in with the GAA in the Pairc and helped fund the redevelopment and make it into a municipal style stadium (maybe got the soccer crowd involved). The GAA dont use it during the winter and surely they could have got ten+ big events there (a few of the interpros, HC games in addition to the Munster hurling/football, the odd football international and a few concerts) and marketed it like Leinster do the Aviva....the population and punters are there...the vision isnt (or wasnt)

ME-109 wrote:There was about 10K there.

We certainly need better combinations of player, whether we need to have our strongest team out all the time is debatable. Our back row was relatively poor (except for CJ)) as was our centrefield (andrew who?). Keatley was weak etc...

I thought that O'Donnell looked really sharp when he came on - his tackle count for a relatively short amount of time on the field seemed huge. I think he, O'Mahony and Stander would be a fantastic combination in the back row.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Please tell me that is a joke ME... Why all these Friday night games?!?

Sin, even still those games used to always sell out and even 800 is still quite a lot of travelling support for a pro12 game.
I know it would never happen but it would be great if the newly redeveloped paric Ui Chaoimh got some big games.

Most PRO 12 games will now be on a Friday night to suit tv. Only Sky games allowed on a Saturday.

800 is crap. You think there will be only 800 Munster fans for the game in the Aviva?

Pairc ui Chaoimh may get games, but Munster Rugby would lose out probably by having to hire a stadium when they have their own, not to mention the corporate entertainment and booze & food sales.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ME-109 wrote:There was about 10K there.

We certainly need better combinations of player, whether we need to have our strongest team out all the time is debatable. Our back row was relatively poor (except for CJ)) as was our centrefield (andrew who?). Keatley was weak etc...

I thought that O'Donnell looked really sharp when he came on - his tackle count for a relatively short amount of time on the field seemed huge.  I think he, O'Mahony and Stander would be a fantastic combination in the back row.

He did look good hopefully he can stay injury free. Also Dineen did well when he came on as well.

At least for the backrow we have lots of competition.

Edit...Earls at OC for the year is now looking more and more likely (depending on what St Joe says of course)

ME-109 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Please tell me that is a joke ME... Why all these Friday night games?!?

Sin, even still those games used to always sell out and even 800 is still quite a lot of travelling support for a pro12 game.
I know it would never happen but it would be great if the newly redeveloped paric Ui Chaoimh got some big games.

If they had the balls what should have happened is they should have gone in with the GAA in the Pairc and helped fund the redevelopment and make it into a municipal style stadium (maybe got the soccer crowd involved). The GAA dont use it during the winter and surely they could have got ten+ big events there (a few of the interpros, HC games in addition to the Munster hurling/football, the odd football international and a few concerts) and marketed it like Leinster do the Aviva....the population and punters are there...the vision isnt (or wasnt)

That could affect season ticket sales. Lots of people buy season tickets to ensure that they get a ticket to European games. There would be no shortage of tickets in a 50K stadium.

ME-109 wrote:

Edit...Earls at OC for the year is now looking more and more likely (depending on what St Joe says of course)

If Earls can stay fit ... though, he seemed to have fewer injuries when playing in the centre.

Sin é wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Please tell me that is a joke ME... Why all these Friday night games?!?

Sin, even still those games used to always sell out and even 800 is still quite a lot of travelling support for a pro12 game.
I know it would never happen but it would be great if the newly redeveloped paric Ui Chaoimh got some big games.

If they had the balls what should have happened is they should have gone in with the GAA in the Pairc and helped fund the redevelopment and make it into a municipal style stadium (maybe got the soccer crowd involved). The GAA dont use it during the winter and surely they could have got ten+ big events there (a few of the interpros, HC games in addition to the Munster hurling/football, the odd football international and a few concerts) and marketed it like Leinster do the Aviva....the population and punters are there...the vision isnt (or wasnt)

That could affect season ticket sales. Lots of people buy season tickets to ensure that they get a ticket to European games. There would be no shortage of tickets in a 50K stadium.

Maybe now.. but that wasnt the case in the past. Anyway given there was no issue in getting tickets for the home games this year in the group stages I dont think that would be an issue. It still goes back to a short sighted view of things whereby the HC during the good times was seen as the big thing. It still comes down to being able to grow the base of supporters..that isnt happening

I agree with that ME. We really do need to move the big sporting events around Ireland. The GAA semi final in Limerick was a resounding success and god knows why the FAI won't play a soccer match outside of the Aviva.

Munster has a huge support - the problem is that most of its support doesn't live within 5 or 6km of its main stadium.

Cork doesn't have the stadia to hold Heineken Cup games, Limerick does.

And it was a case in the past - the capacity of Thomond Park more than doubled. The demand looked greater because there were fewer tickets available.

Why didn't Cork bid to be the main stadium? Wasn't there a planning issue with Musgrave (the reason why Thomond was selected).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I agree with that ME. We really do need to move the big sporting events around Ireland. The GAA semi final in Limerick was a resounding success and god knows why the FAI won't play a soccer match outside of the Aviva.

FAI has the same contractual obligations as the IRFU has with Aviva. They have to play all Ireland games there.

How long is that agreement for? Hopefully the FAI and IRFU will be able to put games around the country some day.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How long is that agreement for? Hopefully the FAI and IRFU will be able to put games around the country some day.

10 years I think, with an option for a 5 year extension.

They got 40m for it, which is pretty good.

Sin é wrote:Munster has a huge support - the problem is that most of its support doesn't live within 5 or 6km of its main stadium.

Cork doesn't have the stadia to hold Heineken Cup games, Limerick does.

And it was a case in the past - the capacity of Thomond Park more than doubled. The demand looked greater because there were fewer tickets available.

Why didn't Cork bid to be the main stadium? Wasn't there a planning issue with Musgrave (the reason why Thomond was selected).

No the primary reason that home games were moved to Thomond was that it was less dilapidated than Musgrave park in 2003 (no seriously - the stand in Musser was deemed unsafe - it was falling down). Then the original plan was to develop Thomond and have a 20K stadium in Cork. Then the downturn happened. At the time I think everyone got caught up in the emotion side of things and it all looked rosy. Short term gains but no long term planing. Whether you like it or not the population in the southern half of the province outweighs the rest by 2:1.

On the other hand looking at moving to some place like Thurles would have made more sense - easy to get to by nearly everyone including folk in Leinster (except Kerry folk but who cares about them). Probably a bit outside the box though

With regards to the so called planing issue....lets just say that given the downturn and state of finances at the time lets just say that the Munster branch werent too enthusiastic in pushing things through..

In fairness to Limerick City though (and Shannon Dev), they put huge money into Thomond with grants which Cork City was not prepared to do.

You have only yourselves to blame. Thurles is too much of a hurling town for it to work. Gaelic football is just about tolerated, so I can't see how rugby would get a look in.

Sin é wrote:In fairness to Limerick City though (and Shannon Dev), they put huge money into Thomond with grants which Cork City was not prepared to do.

You have only yourselves to blame. Thurles is too much of a hurling town for it to work. Gaelic football is just about tolerated, so I can't see how rugby would get a look in.

Thats too simple an argument Sin...and maybe you are right about the money side of things but the planing comes down from the Munster branch. The initial plans all looked good. Simultaneous development of two stadia. The reality turned out to be something completely different. Looking at the dev of Thomond park alone doesnt make sense business wise.

The reason i bring up Thurles has nothing to do with whether its a hurling town or not but its central to the province and punters from Cork/Limerick/Leinster would have less issues getting there plus it has trains from both centres. Or another way of putting it is that instead of spending money on Musgrave park now the Munster branch should have given the money to the NRA for a Cork/Limerick motorway. Its only 100Km = 1 hour . Would make a huge difference to people.

PS - Are you bringing your hang sangiches to Croker tomorrow?

You know what they used to say was the eight wonder of the world? - Cork/Tipp in the Pairc - The reflection from the silver paper wrapping the hang sangiches could be seen in space