Scarlets vs Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Tough opening fixture at a venue Ulster lost at last year. That was one of our worst performances of the season and I'd be extremely keen for Ulster to bury that and get a win. Scarlets fielded a pretty hardened looking line-up against Gloucester in their final pre-season friendly, so it will not be easy. Any kind of win will do.

Scarlets

15) Liam Williams
14) Harry Robinson
13) Regan King
12 Scott Williams
11) Michael Tagicakibau
10) Rhys Priestland
9) Gareth Davies

1) Phil John
2) Ken Owens (c)
3) Rhodri Jones
4) Jake Ball
5) Johan Snyman
6) Rob McCusker
7) John Barclay
8) Rory Pitman

Replacements: Emyr Phillips, Rob Evans, Peter Edwards, Richard Kelly, Aaron Shingler, Rhodri Williams, Steven Shingler, Gareth Owen

Ulster

15) Louis Ludik
14) Michael Allen
13) Jared Payne
12) Stuart Olding
11) Craig Gilroy
10) Ian Humphreys
9) Paul Marshall

1) Callum Black
2) Rob Herring
3) Wiehahn Herbst
4) Dan Tuohy
5) Franco van der Merwe
6) Robbie Diack
7) Chris Henry
8) Roger Wilson (c)

Replacements: John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Lewis Stevenson, Nick Williams, Michael Heaney, Luke Marshall, Andrew Trimble.

"Was neutralish for this game (well slightly rooting for the Scarlets as they play a great brand of rugby) and Fitzgibbon had a good game overall despite these soft yellow cards."

I saw a different game then, the gibbon was atrocious, he couldn't officiate a kids game of tag rugby. In fact that's where he should be working. If anyone in any other job performed to that standard year in, year out they'd be gotten rid of.

Still, it was a grand display of attacking rugby and as has been said a great advert for our league on Sky's stage. If it's excitement you crave the double header yesterday had it all.

Yeah second yellow was justified as he took Marshall out as he went to the ruck to give Ulster quick ball when the Scarletts defence had been semi breached it was very synical but the first yellow was never a yellow, I don't even think it was a penalty because it wasn't a deliberate knock on in my opinion he was trying to make a tackle but that really was Fitzgibbons quality all night long.

I knew it was his second, but honestly didn't see anything from the stands. I'll watch the highlights tonight and decide if it was harsh it fair.

The second yellow was spot on. For me the yellows for Tuohy and Williams first were both ridiculous though. He even went to the TMO for Tuohy, which showed him standing his ground and not changing direction and still went yellow. He is an abysmal ref.

The positive thing to come out of it is that I don't think either set of fans is unhappy with 3 points each

Plenty of positives for both sides from this game I thought although neither defence coach should be sleeping easy. Pitman looks a great acquisition, Wales seem to be stock piling good 8's behind faletau at the moment and if Gareth Davies isn't starting 9 for Wales this year you have to wonder. For ulster all 3 saffers look great additions but the real plus was oldings form after so long injured together with henshaw at Connacht Ireland look to have real potential in the 3 quarters after the bod Darcy years. Lastly what a great game for sky to get first up and a great start to this years season.

People seem to be talking about the Gibbon being a horrifically poor referee as though it is somehow a new or innovative concept. He's been an appallingly incompetent whistle monkey as long as I've ever seen him on a field.

I think both sides leaked some really soft tries, and I'm pretty disappointed with three points as we could have and probably should have had all five.

But if we play like that at home to Zebre we'll have 8 points after two games and plenty to build on. I was really pleased with some of our phase play and offloading, plus the fact we peaked in the last 15 minutes whilst the Scarlets fell away fitness wise. Really good execution of skills when exhausted and under pressure. We just gave them too many cheap scores to build an easy lead. If we were in touching distance going into the last 15 we would have won it. Damn individual errors!

After the long wait for the pro 12 to start, this game was a blinder for Scarlets, Ulster and neutral fans.
Only watched the game this morning on TV, I have to say I thought the refereeing was bad during the game but missed a couple of things from the ground and couldn't make much sense of the yellow cards. After today it's obvious there was no sense in those first two yellow cards and the refereeing overall was apalling!
Great game despite that but both sides have a lot of work to do on their defence as at times it was just too easy to break through.

I was pretty gutted at the result yesterday as I felt we were the better side for most of the game, even Priestland's kicking was pretty superb until his last kick which could have won us the game and he bottled it...it was his easiest kick of the match and missed by a mile.

On reflection and after watching it on tv, 3 points each is pretty fair, Ulster came back well when it looked all over and having seen the disallowed try again (not that they didn't show enough replays at the ground) I can't see why it wasn't given.
I'll take the 3 points and hope we can get our defence sorted pretty quickly.

The way I look at it is that we got nothing from the fixture last season so we are +3 on last year.

Fitz gibbon has always been poor but I can't remember the last time he reffed us.

The PRO12 is looking healthy, only Treviso put in a poor showing so far... Shame we have to persist with referees of Fitzgibbons level. The world of selecting top refs baffles me.

Clancy was in charge of Oz vs SA yesterday...???

Great game. Well done both sides. I hope Liam Williams starts considering his attitude. He is becoming a big liability due to his too often ridiculous decisions on and off the ball.

Lets look at the positives. It was a good game with plenty of tries. Defences were not great but I'm not complaining about that if it means more tries! Draw was a fair result.


The thread is being dominated by the ref. Actually he wasn't half as bad as being made out. Williams first yellow was harsh but Ulster had numbers out wide and looked like they were going to score a try so overall the Scarlets fans would have probably taken it. Dan Tuohys was a stonewall yellow. It was a professional block that didn't look like much but could have stopped a try. If yellows are not awarded for that it'll stop attacking rugby and allow cheating to dominate.

The only decision I've a problem with is the disallowed try. Whoever called it was being extremely pedantic.


Back to the match. From an Ireland point of view Stuart Olding was easily the stand out player of the first round involving Munster, Ulster and Leinster. Some more of that and he'll be playing in the november internationals. Payne doesn't seem to do as much at center as he does at fullback. The extra time allowed playing fullback allows him to work some magic. He hasn't playing many games at center so we'll know more in a few weeks.


The Scarlets number 9 (Davies?) was excellent. I was also impressed with Rory Pitman who played well on his debut.

Can't agree with your assessment on either YC there prof. Tuohy isn't obliged to move out of Williams way. He stood still and braced himself as Williams ran into him. Similarly I can see why gibbon gave the pen against Liam Williams but to give a YC there has to be clear intent which wasn't evident. He was simply atrocious

Tuohy's yellow was marginal but probably justified because he could have stopped in time after the ball was away, however it did demonstrate a lack of consistency from potato head. McCusker was late on Humphreys and led with his elbow but spud-u-like didn't even award a penalty.

Liam Williams' first yellow was entirely justified. He knew he had to stop the pass or concede a try, so he made sure he stopped the pass and faced the card.

Williams yellow card was a joke!!
He went in for a tackle and hit the ball in the process of wrapping his arms around the player. It was nothing more than a knock on really, a penalty would have been harsh, a yellow card .....farcical.

At the ground I thought Sanjay's first was a yellow no arguments. Scrum V didn't show it on the highlights so I'll stick with my original thoughts, his second seemed harsh, but to be fair it potentially stopped a game levelling try, so I can understand it. There were a few high hits missed, and I'm sure plenty of other things too.

Also in the defence of Fitzgibbon the linesmen were totally useless, they missed a load of stuff, right in front of them, from both sides.

I know I am most probably very thick for asking this but why is Williams called Sanjay? I can't keep up with all these nicknames

Pete330v2 wrote:I know I am most probably very thick for asking this but why is Williams called Sanjay? I can't keep up with all these nicknames

When he was a kid, with a sun tan he looked like Sanjay from Eastenders.

Glasgow must be the worst for the Nicknames, but at least GC gives us the lexicon at the start of the threads to give us a clue of who people are talking about.

Ha Haaaaa I like it.
Yeah the Weegies need babelfish when discussing their squad with others.

Williams is a cracking talent, a bit hot-headed but personally I think that's not a bad thing if it can be harnessed. He still shouldn't have seen a red card on saturday, the gibbon is a prize plonker for that one.

His major problem is that he is starting to get a rep. for being firey and having ill discipline. Refs tend to be less lenient with players who are known to have bad track records, and any opposition player with any sense will also be looking to make the most of this by just holding onto him for an extra second around a ruck etc, knowing full well that they may get a shove or a thump

Tbf, if he had any sense he would have started to be a bit careful once he got the first yellow. The first yellow was harsh but the second was beyond certain and beyond stupid. There can be no debate about his second and he knew he was already on a yellow so why on earth...

Will he face a suspension now that he's got a red card?

Notch wrote:Tbf, if he had any sense he would have started to be a bit careful once he got the first yellow. The first yellow was harsh but the second was beyond certain and beyond stupid. There can be no debate about his second and he knew he was already on a yellow so why on earth...

Will he face a suspension now that he's got a red card?

Well there is the flaw in your argument, I mean he has a moustache tattoo on his finder, and Shingler's mum's name tattooed on his rump, so sense is definitely not a strong point

I do have a feeling if it were say someone who is generally cleaner than clean like Regan King who had taken the scrum half out the ref would have blown up for a pen, and given him a dressing down at worst.

If he does get a ban, then to be fair he can't argue, it is the second time he has seen red for picking up two yellow cards now (did in last season against the Blues at Judgement day too)

Impressed by Olding, Van Der Merwe and balance in the pack generally - looks much more dynamic and solid than the other Irish provinces, who look pretty pedestrian and under powered (didn't see Connacht).

Fancy the Saints, Sarries or one of the big French teams in the RCC but think we have a chance in the pro 12 on the first weekends showing.

Olding was a shining light in your attack, every time he got the ball he was dangerous. Is his future still at fly half or is he going to be kept at inside centre? Personally I think, especially for Ireland, he would be best served staying at inside centre with Payne outside of him.

Ludik looks decent too - Payne will need his A game this year if he wants a start as the midfield will be Olding and A.N other on this showing.... combo with Marshall looked good...

rodders wrote:Ludik looks decent too - Payne will need his A game this year if he wants a start as the midfield will be Olding and A.N other on this showing.... combo with Marshall looked good...

No.23 Jared Payne? I guess that would give you plenty of cover off the bench.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Olding was a shining light in your attack, every time he got the ball he was dangerous.  Is his future still at fly half or is he going to be kept at inside centre?  Personally I think, especially for Ireland, he would be best served staying at inside centre with Payne outside of him.

I think he's a 12. A 12 who can cover 10 and 15 if need be, but still a 12.

Notch wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Olding was a shining light in your attack, every time he got the ball he was dangerous.  Is his future still at fly half or is he going to be kept at inside centre?  Personally I think, especially for Ireland, he would be best served staying at inside centre with Payne outside of him.

I think he's a 12. A 12 who can cover 10 and 15 if need be, but still a 12.

The way he ripped us apart down the middle, aiming for gaps (possibly made illegally/or not) and exploiting his nimbleness, he could have a bright future there!

Marshall and Olding would probably be Ulster's best right now.

Yep. Olding I just love watching. The guys feet are ridiculous, he can get through gaps the size of postage stamps, and he appears to have added a lot of muscle without losing that agility. When you add his natural awareness of where supporting players are, his offloading ability and the fact he is a good kicker of the ball out of hand and a good place kicker and the sky is the limit for this guy.

I think his top end speed isn't the same as it was. But the step and burst looks fine

His step, burst and strength are amazing and he seemed to have employed all three when he made his breaks. I watched the match replay last night on S4C and he was the stand-out player. I noticed a few other things now that I could watch the match from the front of the sofa and without tearing my hair out.
Payne was injured in the first half but may well have been carrying an injury that he simply exacerbated. He was barely involved in the game so it made it pretty easy for Luke Marshall to make an impact at 13.
Big Dan's yellow was deserved as he did indeed move into the Scarlets player's path intentionally. You can clearly see him stepping in and dropping the shoulder. Williams' first yellow should never have been awarded. He was going for the tackle, his movement was a tackle movement, not slapping at the ball IMO.

Anyway, apart from all that the main thing for me was the sheer speed of both teams in attack. It was SuperXV in speed and it's no wonder the players were gasping for air at the end.

Bring on the Zebre!!!!

Notch wrote:Yep. Olding I just love watching. The guys feet are ridiculous, he can get through gaps the size of postage stamps, and he appears to have added a lot of muscle without losing that agility. When you add his natural awareness of where supporting players are, his offloading ability and the fact he is a good kicker of the ball out of hand and a good place kicker and the sky is the limit for this guy.

The one question mark over him, and Luke Marshall as well I suppose is durability. Can these guys play 20-30 games a season without breaking down?

One thing you have to be amazed with D'arcy and Drico is how few serious, long term injuries these guys had over the years and how many big games they managed to play -especially compared to the subsequent generation(s).

rodders wrote:The one question mark over him, and Luke Marshall as well I suppose is durability. Can these guys play 20-30 games a season without breaking down?

One thing you have to be amazed with D'arcy and Drico is how few serious, long term injuries these guys had over the years and how many big games they managed to play -especially compared to the subsequent generation(s).

Wasn't D'Arcy out for about a year in 08/09 with a broken arm and missed most of a season in the early 00s?

Seem also to recall an incident (that received hardly any coverage at the time) where Drico was off for a fair while after being taken out by Umaga and Mealamu.

I suppose with the injury rates these days those are below average times to be out given the length of their careers. As for durability, you're never in a position to tell at this point. Look at Earls and Fitzgerald when they were breaking through, no-one would have thought about it.

But I'd be more concerned with Marshalls persistent problems when he takes knocks to the head than Oldings one-off severe injury he's coming back from.

Its was a good game but i felt we were the much better team with ball in hand and looked much more dangerous. Our issue is not playing for the full 80. It happened against Gloucester in pre-season but thankfully our lead was too good for them to catch up with. For me that game was won and we had shown promise even though our defense was shakey.

Pitman has been a good signing so far and if he keeps playing like he is will fill the last piece of the scarlet puzzle which we have been looking for.
Not satisfied with the draw because we needed the win before we go into the Leinster game

Not sure I agree hamer. I actually felt ulster had the better of the first half but Marshall's brainfart and ludiks disallowed try was a 14 point swing.

That said having rewatched I thought the Scarlets were better in the 2nd half until they went 14 up. Humph Jr made a good point though and it's another one against fitzgibbon (because the TJ brought it to his attention) that right at the end when Davies knocked on it should have been a pen to Ulster for the win. It was pretty blatant too

Standulstermen wrote:I think his top end speed isn't the same as it was. But the step and burst looks fine

The step and burst are way more important to centers while top end speed is more important for wingers usually. BOD hadn't great top end speed but had a great burst of speed over the first 5 or 10m. Olding is a bit like Fofana but is a better footballer IMO. They're both around the same size and both good steppers.

Just watched the whole game back.

Delighted with the draw-and also the mental strength to claw our way back into it. Thought Ludik's first try was good, to be honest. To take that in our stride and press the attack in the last ten was gratifying.

As expected, Scarlets were dazzling on counter attack. Pittman is a monster. Handling wasn't great, though, and they were blowing out their holes by the end. They'll have to improve their fitness if they don't want more teams to swing it back in the last fifteen.

Very entertaining first Pro12 game in Sky. Bodes well.

With Pitman getting good reviews, I'll give a bit more info. He joined Scarlets from Wasps in June. Probably, like many Scarlets fans did when he joined them, I thought I would check him out.

Born in Bridgend, Rory was part of the Ospreys academy for five years. Having managed only one first team appearance, he was released by the Os in 2012 aged 22.

During that time he had a loan spell with Glasgow featuring four times for them. Rory then joined Rotherham in The Championship for the 2012/13 season playing 14 times.

He was injured for a while at Wasps, and the form of Nathan Hughes and Guy Thompson (plus Ashley Johnson also covers No. 8) meant that he only played 4 games last season.

He also had a spell with Taranaki and London Welsh somewhere along the line. Plus he dabbled with (minor) Rugby League for part of a recent summer.

My take on the lad is that he was heartbroken to be cut from the Os Academy and never really settled anywhere else. He's back in Wales now and has had a good league debut by all accounts. As with all former Wasps, I wish him well for the future.

Standulstermen wrote:Not sure I agree hamer. I actually felt ulster had the better of the first half but Marshall's brainfart and ludiks disallowed try was a 14 point swing.

That said having rewatched I thought the Scarlets were better in the 2nd half until they went 14 up. Humph Jr made a good point though and it's another one against fitzgibbon (because the TJ brought it to his attention) that right at the end when Davies knocked on it should have been a pen to Ulster for the win. It was pretty blatant too

I thought there were a few things it could have been called for (and in favour of either side), and he just decided to go for the 'safe' option of a knock on.

Hound -: he went to Taranaki when he was still with the Ospreys (fresh out of under 20s), as I remember there was a bit of a buzz surrounding him at the time as a player with real potential. I think that stint ended in injury and was the start of his start-stop injury problems.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Not sure I agree hamer. I actually felt ulster had the better of the first half but Marshall's brainfart and ludiks disallowed try was a 14 point swing.

That said having rewatched I thought the Scarlets were better in the 2nd half until they went 14 up. Humph Jr made a good point though and it's another one against fitzgibbon (because the TJ brought it to his attention) that right at the end when Davies knocked on it should have been a pen to Ulster for the win. It was pretty blatant too

I thought there were a few things it could have been called for (and in favour of either side), and he just decided to go for the 'safe' option of a knock on.

It gets worse.
The Gibbon is officiating at Ravespan tomorrow night, all be it from the touchline. Can someone go up to the Ravespan stadium and unplug the big TVs ? He'll utilise anything to ensure Ulster don't win.

Pete, if he is on the touchline then you can inform him when he gets a call wrong easier

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Not sure I agree hamer. I actually felt ulster had the better of the first half but Marshall's brainfart and ludiks disallowed try was a 14 point swing.

That said having rewatched I thought the Scarlets were better in the 2nd half until they went 14 up. Humph Jr made a good point though and it's another one against fitzgibbon (because the TJ brought it to his attention) that right at the end when Davies knocked on it should have been a pen to Ulster for the win. It was pretty blatant too

I thought there were a few things it could have been called for (and in favour of either side), and he just decided to go for the 'safe' option of a knock on.

Agreed scarlet. I don't think he cost us or anything. A draw was fair

Cheers SS. I knew he had a stint in NZ before coming to Wasps. I suppose it had to be while he was at the Ospreys.

Yeah, he's not had the best of luck with injuries. Hopefully he can put all that behind him and realise his potential.

Standulstermen wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Not sure I agree hamer. I actually felt ulster had the better of the first half but Marshall's brainfart and ludiks disallowed try was a 14 point swing.

That said having rewatched I thought the Scarlets were better in the 2nd half until they went 14 up. Humph Jr made a good point though and it's another one against fitzgibbon (because the TJ brought it to his attention) that right at the end when Davies knocked on it should have been a pen to Ulster for the win. It was pretty blatant too

I thought there were a few things it could have been called for (and in favour of either side), and he just decided to go for the 'safe' option of a knock on.

Agreed scarlet. I don't think he cost us or anything. A draw was fair

A draw did feel right. I mean at the time I would have been overjoyed with the win but by now it would have been feeling very hollow indeed. Two good sides entertained us with some truely exciting rugby and came away 3 points each to the good. Happy days.