Best golfer here?

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the Handicap thread, who is the best/lowest handicapper currently contributing to the golf board?

Of course there were a few tasty golfers on the old 606- Rory Mac and Lee Westwood undoubtedly top of the pile.

Think super is the lowest I've seen, 2 if I remember correctly. Anyone lower than this?

Super

This is how this argument is progressing;

rational person: Being able to hit your driver better will improve scores.

Super: Once or twice a round I can drive within 120 yards.

rational person: OK super, but what about in general.  Will better driving help a high handicapper.

Super: I can drive it within 120 yards once or twice a round.

rational person: Great stuff super, but what about the premise being made?

Super: I can drive it within 120 yards once or twice a round.


and so on................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/29890955

would one handed chipping help the high handicaper?

McLaren wrote:Super

This is how this argument is progressing;

rational person: Being able to hit your driver better will improve scores.

Super: Once or twice a round I can drive within 120 yards.

rational person: OK super, but what about in general.  Will better driving help a high handicapper.

Super: I can drive it within 120 yards once or twice a round.

rational person: Great stuff super, but what about the premise being made?

Super: I can drive it within 120 yards once or twice a round.


and so on................

What are you talking about Blakey?

I've never once mentioned how frequently I hit it to 120 yards. I stated it was my preference to obtain that distance from the green/flag.

I then, quite clearly went on to say that the advantages of hitting it as far as you can is relative to the risk involved and that if there is no risk involved, such as boring holes like 18 on TOC, then yes, go for it.

Can't you stop being a berk for once in your snivelling life?

Surely becoming a better Driver of the ball includes Length and Direction.

I would wager that the majority of high handicappers are so for the shots they don't hit. The five lost balls a round.  The unplayable lies and the majority of this is shot choice.

For instance a par 5 second shot?  300 yards left pf hole, there is a burn (front) 200 yards away, 220 it carry it.

You can hit your Sunday Best to carry 230, the glory of the second shot means a lot of high handicappers gp for ot because they once did it (I was this person).

But is being able to hit it thay far worth the risk pf not catching it perfect and ending in the ditch to give up 50 yards.

I guess in short hand being able to hit ot further does improve you , using common sense with added distance improves you greatly

super_realist wrote:...Now, if for example I'm playing 18 at TOC, I'll hit driver all day long because there isn't any risk at all on that hole. An 80 yard wedge shot (provided I've done enough practice) is preferable to one of 120 yards, however driving it 80 yards from the 12th and I'm risking all sorts of problems with rough, gorse and bunkers, so I'd much rather be playing in from a safe 120, noting as well the control I'll have with a full shot to stop the ball on the short top of the green where the pin usually is. ..

Ok. Your point re. 12 @ TOC is self-evident - as I said before, it's a balance. However, it would certainly be advisable to be as far as you safely can be and it would also be advisable to work on one's full swing mechanics such that to reach that lovely safe spot 120 out, you're hitting a lesser (and therefore more accurate) club from the tee. Distance wins again.

super_realist wrote:Mac, what I'm saying is that being able to hit the ball longer and straighter is no use if the area into which your new found driving skills are getting you is less safe and more risky than laying up slightly further back.

I'm all for players being able to hit driver better, but if you don't combine it with good course management, then what use is it if you are getting into trouble more?

It sounds like you'd rather be in a pot bunker 80 yards from the green than be 120 yards from the green slap bang in the middle of a fairway.

That's daft though. No-one is suggesting you tw@t a driver when you know damned well that right at your 260 yard driver carry distance is a lake or something similar. If you learn to hit it further, period, then you're hitting lesser clubs throughout, to any target. Learn to hit it as far as you can and add the course management on top of that.

navy

You make more very good points, and poke more holes in supers argument. I increasingly think however, that he cannot follow rational arguments. In this instance he is fixed on one example that relates to him (an anecdote) instead of considering the overall trend of how distance can aid a player (data).

McLaren wrote:Super

This is how this argument is progressing;

rational person: Being able to hit your driver better will improve scores.

Super: Once or twice a round I can drive within 120 yards.

rational person: OK super, but what about in general.  Will better driving help a high handicapper.

Super: I can drive it within 120 yards once or twice a round.

rational person: Great stuff super, but what about the premise being made?

Super: I can drive it within 120 yards once or twice a round.

and so on................

Mac, i hope you're not the 'rational person' in this imagined scenario, because if so that just blows it's credibility completely out of the water........

Navy, no problem with that, I'm simply talking about an observation.

For instance, when do you ever see a mid handicapper hit anything other than driver on a par 4 or par 5 hole? Without the common sense whether they drive well or whether they drive poorly they are still likely to get into trouble because on many holes a driver isn't the clever play.

Now, being the best driver you can is obviously not a bad thing. Knowing the correct shot to play is a different story and something I see mid -handicappers fail to do almost all the time.

The average player has atrocious course management. Good driving AND course management is a recipe for improvement.

Would good driving not have to include course management? You could aim into the woods all day, and hit your desired target, but by any measure that would not be good driving.

You are sort of saying good course management (and other aspects of good driving) AND course management improve driving. Why say it twice like you did above?

Mac, you should stop being a contrary pr1ck for a change. The debate was always about length of drive and hitting it further and whether being longer resulted in better scoring.

The result being, it depends entirely on the circumstances of the hole.

Super

We may well have been talking about length, but you used the more encompassing term "good drive". That implies more than length and would include where the ball was aimed.

Take your pedantry on the number 45 and drive off a long pier Mac,

Have you never hit a "good drive" that ended up in the rough, bunker, divot etc?
Actually probably you haven't.

I never take the driver out on a par 5 (unless there's a whopping lake to clear or something). Most of the people I play with do. I can't see the point unless you're going for the green in two which is, for me (and the people i play with), rarely the case. Why risk driver and then be left with say a 7 iron, wedge approach when you can hit 3 wood and then 6 iron wedge?? It's crazy
The only time i'd consider getting the driver out on a par 5 might be a pairs match where my partner is bang on the fairway and i might decide it's worth trying to make the green in two. Even then i'd have to be very confident he'd make par

super_realist wrote:Take your pedantry on the number 45 and drive off a long pier Mac,

Have you never hit a "good drive" that ended up in the rough, bunker, divot etc?
Actually probably you haven't.

his hickory clubs and 'gutta percha' golf ball can't reach the hazards

That's a rule I follow pretty much MPB, if I can't get up in two I stick to three wood, unless of course there is no risk, in which case I'll probably take driver.

super_realist wrote:Navy, no problem with that, I'm simply talking about an observation.

For instance, when do you ever see a mid handicapper hit anything other than driver on a par 4 or par 5 hole? Without the common sense whether they drive well or whether they drive poorly they are still likely to get into trouble because on many holes a driver isn't the clever play.

Now, being the best driver you can is obviously not a bad thing. Knowing the correct shot to play is a different story and something I see mid -handicappers fail to do almost all the time.

The average player has atrocious course management. Good driving AND course management is a recipe for improvement.

True. To come back to the earlier premise though, I still suggest improvement in the long game (for most) is going to bring bigger margins, in terms of handicap decrease etc, than working on putting.
Longer (and safer, of course) off the tee = shorter irons to green = more GIR and also GIR yielding shorter 1st putts = better scores. On those times when a GIR is missed, shorter irons etc into the target is likely to mean smaller misses i.e. requiring short chip shots from the fringe area instead of pitches and flop shots from some way out. Chips vs. pitches/flops = closer to flag = short putt = more up & downs and also less point practicing short putts as little difference here between pro and amateur.

Good question Navy. I'd be interested to know what GIR most people hit.

I tend to miss quite a lot, I probably hit about 11 a round (non old course rounds), but my misses result mostly in the fringe area so getting up and down isn't too much of a problem. However, the lack of a birdie putt is frustrating.

MustPuttBetter wrote:I never take the driver out on a par 5 (unless there's a whopping lake to clear or something). Most of the people I play with do. I can't see the point unless you're going for the green in two which is, for me (and the people i play with), rarely the case. Why risk driver and then be left with say a 7 iron, wedge approach when you can hit 3 wood and then 6 iron wedge?? It's crazy
The only time i'd consider getting the driver out on a par 5 might be a pairs match where my partner is bang on the fairway and i might decide it's worth trying to make the green in two. Even then i'd have to be very confident he'd make par

It's not crazy. The strategy of laying up with the second shot isn't borne out by stats either I'm afraid. You're better going driver, 3w and leaving a 10 yard bump-and-run (or whatever) than going 3w, 6i and PW from 110 (or whatever). Sure, sometimes you might mess up the tee shot, but who says you're going to pure your 3w tee shot every time either? Most people I know hit a tee'd up driver far better than a low tee'd 3w off the tee.
I do accept that there are specific instances, however, when trying to reach a par 5 etc in two isn't a good play but that still doesn't mean one should try to get as far as safely possible down the hole.
It's not simply tw@t it as far as possible, every time, but at all times one should be trying to maximise distance as safely as possible.

super_realist wrote:Good question Navy. I'd be interested to know what GIR most people hit....

I can be boring here! Since August 2008, I've averaged 62.3% or 1727 hit out of 2772 holes played. Round about the 11/18 per round mark. I know that even though I hit that %, I'm not often knocking flags out and making birdies all the time.

HAve you looked at where your misses are? I used to record that too. Either short or right.

navyblueshorts wrote:It's not crazy. The strategy of laying up with the second shot isn't borne out by stats either I'm afraid. You're better going driver, 3w and leaving a 10 yard bump-and-run (or whatever) than going 3w, 6i and PW from 110 (or whatever). Sure, sometimes you might mess up the tee shot, but who says you're going to pure your 3w tee shot every time either? Most people I know hit a tee'd up driver far better than a low tee'd 3w off the tee.
I do accept that there are specific instances, however, when trying to reach a par 5 etc in two isn't a good play but that still doesn't mean one should try to get as far as safely possible down the hole.
It's not simply tw@t it as far as possible, every time, but at all times one should be trying to maximise distance as safely as possible.

It is crazy. Forget getting to the hole as close as possible. I don't disagree with that if circumstances of the hole allow.
But it definitely is not the case that most people i know hit a driver better than a 3 wood, absolutely no chance. Most are much less wild with a 3 wood, just shorter, and even then often not as much shorter as they think. Hitting the driver for most poeple i play with brings in the chances of much more wild misses (slices generally) than with any other club. Both par 5s at my club have out of bounds right of the hole. One also left too.
So why hit driver, 7 iron to get to wherever you want to be (whether that's 10 yards from the hole or 80), and bring in all the driver risk, when you can hit 3 wood, 6 iron? Crazy

super_realist wrote:HAve you looked at where your misses are? I used to record that too. Either short or right.

Not in terms of misses at the green. Anecdotally, I'm pretty sure my misses are short/right of green. My most common miss is a slight push/fade when I strike it badly. Or I get my hands stuck behind and hit a straight block. I'm about even left/right from the tee - slightly (and it's slight) more misses right.

super_realist wrote:Good question Navy. I'd be interested to know what GIR most people hit.

Low. I used to keep stats but have been slack for a year or so. I definitely do not average more than 50% GIR. I'd say 50% on a good day. Average probaly 35%.
In my mind i aim to hit at least a third of the greens. That should mean (putting disaster days aside) i will make 6 pars minimum. I also aim to get up and down at least 25% of the time, so that's another 3 pars.
Providing i can keep the doubles off the card i should then be able to get round in 9 over at worst, which is 2 better than my handicap.
I went through a phase of doing this nicely but of late i keep throwing in 2 or 3 doubles and hence my handicap has stalled.

I used to be a golf stat nut Navy, then I ended up playing so much and practicing so much that I completely forgot what I liked about the game.

Now I seldom practice and just go out and enjoy it and I'm only 0.5 worse than my lowest ever handicap.

MustPuttBetter wrote:It is crazy. Forget getting to the hole as close as possible. I don't disagree with that if circumstances of the hole allow.
But it definitely is not the case that most people i know hit a driver better than a 3 wood, absolutely no chance. Most are much less wild with a 3 wood, just shorter, and even then often not as much shorter as they think. Hitting the driver for most poeple i play with brings in the chances of much more wild misses (slices generally) than with any other club. Both par 5s at my club have out of bounds right of the hole. One also left too.
So why hit driver, 7 iron to get to wherever you want to be (whether that's 10 yards from the hole or 80), and bring in all the driver risk, when you can hit 3 wood, 6 iron? Crazy

So would it not make sense and probably have a large gain if people specifically improved their driving? They could still improve their mechanics for a full swing, even if a 3w is the % play on those par-5s - better than time spent putting in terms of return.
I don't know that many who get close to their driver distances with their 3w (maybe S_R with his RBZ 3w?) and, in my case, I know my driver (Titleist 910D3) goes ~30 yards longer than my 3w (Titleist 910f) from the tee. If that was off a tee on a long par 4, that's maybe 3 clubs less I'm having to contemplate for my approach if I hit a decent driver cf. the 3w. Again, it depends on circumstance and being realistic with what one can pull off - often a golfer's worst attribute.

super_realist wrote:I used to be a golf stat nut Navy, then I ended up playing so much and practicing so much that I completely forgot what I liked about the game.

Now I seldom practice and just go out and enjoy it and I'm only 0.5 worse than my lowest ever handicap.

Probably sensible! I'm not stat-mad but I like to see if there's any glaring things that stand out over time. I need to do some really obvious things like map my wedge distances (full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4), print the distances on a thin bit of a paper and sellotape it on the underside of the wedge shafts below the grips. There's too many silly and obvious things I haven't done over the years and I'd really like to get down to 2 next season before age really starts degrading me too badly!

I'm about 15 yards behind my driver with my 3 wood Navy, I reckon though that a new driver properly fitted might extend that difference, but at present I'm really at no disadvantage playing 3 wood off the tee, especially on par 4's around the 400 yard mark. A 440 par 4 is a different matter though.

THe big difference with my 3 wood is the accuracy and reliability of the shot.

Navy, I don't reckon most people are that far behind their driver with their 3 wood. They might think they are because a lot of people will tell you they hit their driver a bit longer than they really do.
Would be interesting to hear what the consensus on here is, I might be wrong. I'd say I'm about 20 yards behind at most so a club or two's difference to the next shot.

Of course you're right that it would make sense to just improve the driving but you've got to bear in mind not everyone is playing the game to have lessons and practice a lot etc. They're never going to improve their driving to the level where it's not a hell of a lot more risky than the 3 wood. They play for fun but still want to shoot as low as they can. I reckon most of the people at my club would fall into that category.
For them, making better choices is a far quicker and easier way to take a few shots off that improving their driver technique

I tend to agree that a high handicapper (14+) will see their scores fall quicker by improving their long game.

In my swindle, the guys who play off between 12-18 are not really that different from 100 yards in, to the guys who play off high single figures.
The majority of them are OK in most departments but lack either; distance off the tee, accuracy off the tee.. or both.

This is a small sample but at my course a couple of holes stand out to prove this point....
6 - 425ish with a big fairway bunker 210ish from the tee and a lake 80 yards short of the green.
The higher handicappers I play with usually have to hit something short of the bunker then a decent-ish 9/8i to lay up, another good wedge shot just to get on the correct level and hope for a long putt for par (BEST CASE SCENARIO)
Most of the high single figure guys carry the fairway bunker with ease and have around a 5i to the green at worst.

17 - very tight par 4 through the trees (400ish) sharp dogleg with a fairway about 20 yards wide at most.
High handicappers usually take a mid / long iron off the tee leaving them unable to reach the green 2nd shot (protected by 3 bunkers and heavy rough on both sides, the best they can hope for is a long put for par.
High single figure guys are confident enough to hit a wood or rescue straight so at worst they are left with 6i to the green.

Short game matters but I think it matters more when trying to get from 6ish to scratch.
in our scratch team for example: I regularly play foursomes with a 6/7 handicapper - our long games don't differ that much at all but from 100 yards in I will usually be hitting it closer, getting up and down more and not missing shortish putts.


Practicing short game will benefit you no matter the handicap, but I would definitely say that a 20 handicapper is likely to shoot better scores by becoming more consistent with a driver / 3 wood- not so much hitting each club further, but hitting them more consistently straighter............... 180 yards from the fairway is an easier shot than 150 from the lake!!!!!

Slight tangent here but I'm always a bit sceptical when I hear people other than really top players talk about hitting 1/2 wedges. I can accept that decent players know how far they hit their wedge and will be pretty accurate to that but how far back would you go for a 1/2 wedge and can you repeat that exactly every time? Do you people really stand there and think oh this is the distance for a 3/4,1/2,1/4 wedge and take the club back that distance?

I'd be staggered if most people even swing at the same speed every time anyway.

For me it's just a matter aiming in the right direction and hoping for the best I guess.

Hibbz, probably not.

I used to hit half a bucket of balls at the 75 yard marker and the other half at the 100 yard marker on alternate shots with my PW. I can't tell you if it was a 1/2, 3/4 ... etc swing but I did build a feel for what it felt like to hit each yardage. Did it help? who knows.

Sounds a lot like Pelz's 3x4 system Hibbz. I'd say you don't need to be a top player to make that work, just plenty of practice.

Down to practise, but my half distance clubs go more wronger {sic} more often. Pulls, thins, fats, unmentionables, the works.

In terms of misses, do I record my misses?

Only when she's not looking!

Roller you are not the first person on here to mention that less than full shots result in more duffs. I don't find this to be the case at all, and the fact that I am swinging more carefully seems to result in a better quality of strike more often.

Why are people duffing half distance shots?

Mac, if it's a shot you don't practice often, then it's quite easy to catch it fat or thin, or lift the head too quickly anticipating it to be near the pin because you are already close to it.

People can be similarly bad with chipping. You often see it fat or thin, just like a delicate drop shot in tennis or a gentle snooker in snooker. Should be easy, but doens't always work out like that.

As I said, I think it's down to practise, but I think my own problem when they go wrong is not being able to co-ordinate all the timing of the moving parts as well as on a full shot. A bit like when all is not well and I start to try and "steer" the ball rather than swinging properly.

THe main issue I see is people not following through sufficiently on those shots, they often "jab" such shots, and of course there is no control. Tempo is also often poor and deceleration is common

The only change I notice on knock down shots is that I take a slightly bigger divot, I assume the swing is a little steeper for some reason.

Steeper will give you more spin too Mac, also need to go down the grip to get the requisite feel.

Have any of you practiced the wedge game or implemented any of Pelz's ideas? I went through a phase of it a couple of years ago, it seemed quite a worthwhile use of practice time.

Inco - no. I haven't and I know full well it's why my short game is worse than it should be and I still do nothing about it (except moan unreasonably when I don't get up and down!)

I haven't even read any of Pelz's stuff tbh.

incontinentia wrote:Have any of you practiced the wedge game or implemented any of Pelz's ideas? I went through a phase of it a couple of years ago, it seemed quite a worthwhile use of practice time.

I find Pelz too mechanical. I just practiced shots myself to find out what works best for me.

inco

I have the Pelz book, and admire that he tried to apply the scientific method to golf teaching but it is seriously dry reading. About a few chapters in I gave up. I also have too little time to practice his methods, so actually achieving what he suggests would be difficult. My short game relies on the feel I developed playing a lot as a youth. One of the many reasons starting the game young is easiest path to achieving a decent standard. You can always tell when you are playing with a late convert, they just never look comfortable.

Sometimes I think a half-shot can go more wrong, simply because you lose concentration on it - thinking it's an "easier" shot.

In a similar vein, do others find they mess up simple layups for similar reasons? I often find on our 9th hole that has a pond short of the green, if I don't get a good enough drive away I'll choose to lay up rather than take on the pond (it's a shot hole for me anyway so not the end of the world) - but pull a short iron out and the thought processes inadvertently go to "just knock it up there somewhere". Number of times I've missed the fairway with the lay up or chunked it - just simply I think because I don't concentrate like I would with a shot to the green - no precise "target"

That does happen to me too Davie, but more on a couple of holes. A second on a par 5 is often just a simple 7/8 iron to a large landing area to leave a wedge in and because it's a simple knock I often don't bother thinking and fat/thin it. Fortunately it rarely leaves too much in but I definitely don't concentrate there.

The other one is a short par 4 where the tee shot to a fairly large landing area is often a 5 iron or less or (very rarely) more than a rescue. It has gorse immediately in front of the tee so something to get over but nothing anyone has a problem carrying/missing. Again I must think this is easy and regularly put it in cabbage left or right.

McLaren wrote:Hibbz, probably not.

I used to hit half a bucket of balls at the 75 yard marker and the other half at the 100 yard marker on alternate shots with my PW.  I can't tell you if it was a 1/2, 3/4 ... etc swing but I did build a feel for what it felt like to hit each yardage.  Did it help? who knows.

Which is exactly the point! Your "1/2" swing may be nearer to 3/4, in reality, but it's what it feels like to you that matters.

Just read someone mention decelerate. I find I do th
at on so many shots. I really don't know why. I'm a hacker and I wish my long game was more consistent. But from 150 in I'm ok. It's getting to 150.

The most annoying thing I do is when I play safe, eg hit 4 iron off the tee instead of driver because there is trouble all the way down the right side...... and then still shank it into the trouble.

Might as well have hit driver

I think that stating poor course management is the cause of high scores is not necessarily correct. Definitely, higher handicap players can improve scores through better course management. However, the principal cause of high scores is poor or inconsistent swings. Great course management cannot overcome wild slices, shanks, tops or snap hooks.

Spot on Ray!

As a higher handicapper myself, I think my course management is "ok" .. I try not to take on the high percentage shots and use my allocated handicap shots wisely (I hope). Still doesn't legislate for those chunks and mishits.

I was talking to a friend of mine tonight about just that thing. He's in his early 70s and has never been that good even when younger so can't put it down to old age or anything, but he plays consistently to around 26 handicap. But he still has that mindset that par 4s (all of them) should be on the green in 2.

I tried to explain that I see some holes as scoring opportunities and some that I just want to hit the green in NETT regulation, two putts and walk off happy. Of course an easier, shorter par 4 I see as a scoring chance ... try to hit that green in 2 and 2 putts give me a nett birdie - but to use your shots wisely! IMO he should be concentrating on the holes where he gets TWO shots - hit the 4 fours in three, two putt and walk off with 3 points - but he just won't see it that way, even though I think he's starting to come around a bit