Best golfer here?

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the Handicap thread, who is the best/lowest handicapper currently contributing to the golf board?

Of course there were a few tasty golfers on the old 606- Rory Mac and Lee Westwood undoubtedly top of the pile.

Think super is the lowest I've seen, 2 if I remember correctly. Anyone lower than this?

After a while of trying to play it safe and still buggering it up its fun to go full tilt with a driver or a 3 wood from the fairway. 17 shocker holes but if it all comes off on the 18th that's the memory.

raycastleunited wrote:The most annoying thing I do is when I play safe, eg hit 4 iron off the tee instead of driver because there is trouble all the way down the right side...... and then still shank it into the trouble.

Might as well have hit driver

Nothing personal ray but I've always been surprised by this....why do people think it's easier to hit a long (4 in this case) iron easily? Long irons are notoriously some of the hardest to strike both well and keep straight - for good reason. With modern shafts (i.e. longer than in the past) it's even harder to pure a genuine long iron straight down the middle w/o a cut or hook. Yup, should have hit driver with all the modern tech they have going for them.
It's similar logic that gets someone saying "Dunno what was up with me today! Was in the rough a few times and couldn't hit my hybrid from that lie for toffee!". Well...duh! It's called the rough for a reason!

Navy

I agree, my ball striking with 5 to 3 iron is terrible. Give me a driver over them any time.

My 3 and 4 Iron are some of my favourite clubs off the tee. I used to be terrible with them but worked hard with them. I find a slightly slower swing works for me with them.
There's a lot of holes at St.Andrews which are around the 360-380 mark. An iron is all you need, and often vital to avoid the ghastly bunkers.

How far do you hit 3 and 4 Super?
Obviously you're a better player than i am and it looks like a fair bit longer. I generally have a hole length of about 370 as the point where i'll switch from driver to 3 wood as i can leave a 7 iron or less into the green. I don't think i'd be hitting a 4 iron off the tee unless the hole was 340ish or even a bit less

This thread has turned into a really good read. I've also worked hard with my 4 iron (don't have a 3 in the bag). Having a reliable 190/210 shot off the tees on fairways where there is abundant trouble between 230/270 has made a big difference but it has been coupled with being as reliable now with a 6/7 iron as I used to be with 8/9.
On medal days there are 3 shortish par 4 holes where I take the 4 iron (sometimes even a 5/6 depending on the wind) every time. However in matchplay, especially 4bbb when my partner is in good position I tempted take a driver, depending on how I'm swinging. On ALL those holes there is risk at driver distance. 2 of them depending on the wind can be reachable from the tee.

With regard to driver distance, yes if you are longer it will help (assuming you're hitting fairways) but I don't smash a driver at every opportunity. The first at my home course (490 yard par 5) is a great opener because it asks a question right away (play safe or go for it), a ditch & hedge pinches in from both sides of the fairway at 230-235yards. With any wind out of the northern quadrant there's a strong temptation to go for it, especially in the summer when the fairways are running. There's also trouble beyond the hedges off the fairway too. I've had as little as a 7 iron in on occasion. In medal play though I wouldn't touch the driver. It's 4 iron, hybrid/3wood and wedge in. Playing it that way is still a good birdie chance but should be a safe par. Taking driver, a good 2nd is still required to gain an advantage. Trouble is though a poor drive can set up a double and get the round off on the wrong footing. Simple course management. It's good to have good length but the trick is knowing when to use it.

If I hit a 4 iron from the tee on a 380 yard hole I would probably need the same again into the green. Or more if uphill or into the wind.

Even at 340 I would be tempted to get it close enough to hit a short wedge shot rather than a mid iron, and would need a mid iron if I had hit 4 iron from the tee.


I know I always say this but it is odd how long the people on this board are. I am only out driven when I play with very good players, and I drive it around 250 to 260.

If needing to make a forced carry I would not be willing to hit a 4 iron from more than about 170 out.

McLaren wrote:If I hit a 4 iron from the tee on a 380 yard hole I would probably need the same again into the green.  Or more if uphill or into the wind.

Even at 340 I would be tempted to get it close enough to hit a short wedge shot rather than a mid iron, and would need a mid iron if I had hit 4 iron from the tee.


I know I always say this but it is odd how long the people on this board are.  I am only out driven when I play with very good players, and I drive it around 250 to 260.

If needing to make a forced carry I would not be willing to hit a 4 iron from more than about 170 out.

Thats hickory & gutta percha for you Mac :-p

MustPuttBetter wrote:How far do you hit 3 and 4 Super?
Obviously you're a better player than i am and it looks like a fair bit longer. I generally have a hole length of about 370 as the point where i'll switch from driver to 3 wood as i can leave a 7 iron or less into the green. I don't think i'd be hitting a 4 iron off the tee unless the hole was 340ish or even a bit less

I play a lot of courses with tight links turf so the ball rolls out a lot, but my yardage for a 3 Iron is about 210 and 4 iron about 190-195 ish, plus probably 10-20 yards of roll.

I generally hit 3 wood if the hole is about 400-410 or less, Rescue for about 380 and Irons below that (providing there is hazards, which is usually the defence of a short hole)

Obviously hole dependent though in terms of what is in harms way for certain yardages. For instance, no point in hitting an iron on 18 at TOC, but similarly risky to hit driver on 12.

Quite looking forward to this weekend now, might try a few of the "smash it" tactics and see if I get in more trouble or less.

McLaren wrote:If I hit a 4 iron from the tee on a 380 yard hole I would probably need the same again into the green.  Or more if uphill or into the wind.

Even at 340 I would be tempted to get it close enough to hit a short wedge shot rather than a mid iron, and would need a mid iron if I had hit 4 iron from the tee.


I know I always say this but it is odd how long the people on this board are.  I am only out driven when I play with very good players, and I drive it around 250 to 260.

If needing to make a forced carry I would not be willing to hit a 4 iron from more than about 170 out.

What about driver carry? Because if you can't carry 4 iron more than 170 I don't see how you can hit a driver 260 without getting about 40 yards of roll.

incontinentia wrote:Sounds a lot like Pelz's 3x4 system Hibbz. I'd say you don't need to be a top player to make that work, just plenty of practice.

Jeez, I just googled that and it looks a sure fire way to take the joy out of the game of golf.

I played with a guy on Wednesday who'd been having lessons so I got chapter and verse of the mechanics of what he was being taught. All gibberish to me but it clearly wasn't working.

He seemed to want me to provide some insight and as I'm too polite on first meeting to offer my stock advice of "just bloody tw@t it" I muttered something about keeping his head down and practicing on a driving range not the course.

Later on I got the usual "Oh it's easy for you, you just stand there and hit it".

Always amazed by the number of people who think they'll find a miracle cure through lessons and knowing the "mechanics" of the swing. Personally I don't think there's any substitute for learning what works yourself, having been given the basics, and practicing (at a driving range) it until it becomes automatic. Think that's the muscle memory thing isn't it?

smithers

I can carry a 4 iron 190+ with a perfect strike, but the estimated rate of miss hitting a long means I would never rely on carrying 170 with a 4 iron for certain. Despite being able to hit many clubs more than 170, it would actually be the point where I would start to think about a lay up rather than taking on that range of forced carry.

Note, I think we are talking summer conditions in decent weather.

Mac, I would think you would be able to carry 170 with a four quite comfortably.
In fact, I would think you could probably carry a 5 that far.

Super

I wouldn't take that much of a miss hit to loose 15 yards off a 4 iron. If I were unfortunate enough to be playing a course with a lake in front of a green, then from 170 out I would have second thoughts about trying to make the carry.


That may be over cautious, but what would your max forced carry yardage be, assuming the conditions are pretty calm and the shot is not significantly up or downhill?

Mac, wouldn't you consider taking an extra club to make that carry?
Max carry? Do you mean with Iron's?

Depends on the size of the green and the dangers surrounding it Mac. I wouldn't be worried about carrying 170 at all. A 5 would be pretty comfortable with that, obviously I could catch it heavy, but if I'm thinking of a scenario like you suggest, i.e. 18 at Leven, possibly one of Scotland's greatest closing par 4's, which is about 440 with a wide burn in front of the green, I would probably be confident of hitting a carry of 235 yards with a 3 wood, if I'd hit a poor tee shot. Could carry about 220 with my rescue.
Depends how well I'm hitting it, but in all reality, I doubt I'd attempt an iron shot where the carry exceeded 190-195.

Super

The way I think about it is as if I knew the probability distribution for the yardages of each club.  So imagine I hit 1000 balls with each club and plot a graph showing how likely it is the ball will carry a given yardage for a particular club.

For a four iron the yardages would probably spread from 150 up to 200.  With a cluster around the 180 mark and very few at the extremes.  The key piece of data for this question is what are the chances I hit a 4 iron > 170 yards.  

Then secondly if I choose a risk level of say 95% success (I will only accept a 5% chance the ball goes in the water), what club in my bag will clear 170 yards 95% of the time?

I don't obviously have this data but I would imagine only my longest hybrid and 3 wood (which I don't often put in the bag) would meet the criteria.

Sounds like good course management, but on that basis, looks like you are missing something in your bag.

Mac, what did you say you would estimate your current handicap to be?
I'd always got the impression quite low, single figures for sure. Especially considering your recent comments re breaking 80.
But there's no way you're a single figure golfer if you can't rely on carrying your 4 iron over 170 yards

mustputt

I think you are taking the above example that super and I were discussing and applying it too broadly. In almost all circumstances other than the forced carry I would be happy to hit a 4 iron and assume a 180 yard carry (assuming flat, calm, warm conditions). As i noted somewhere earlier on the thread it would seem this board is very long or most of you have a skewed idea of how far yo hit the ball.

I am plenty long enough compared to most people I play with and do not think my yardages reflect those of a high handicapper. I don't have a handicap and have not had one for nearly ten years. As also noted somewhere on the board earlier this week, I admitted that due to poor putting and short game I would struggle to meet the last handicap I held which would have been about 5.

You also said in the above example the if you hit 1000 balls with your 4 you would average (find the cluster) around 170. So either you average 170 with a 4 iron or you don't?
Which means to reach 150 your probably hitting a soft 5 or hard 6. And also means for anything over 170 you're hitting hybrid which is the longest club you have that isn't driver? Your driver which goes 260.
You might have the game, putting aside, of a 5 handicapper but I've never seen one like it

Mustputt

My exact words were "a cluster around the 180 mark". You also seem to be missing the context of the above discussion. Go back and read the posts between super and me. You have missed some key details.

Once you reread posts you will realise I do not hit a 5 iron for regular 150 yard shots.

If you say so Mac
Funny how everyone always needs to go back and reread your posts to understand what you really mean....

Hibbz wrote:...I played with a guy on Wednesday who'd been having lessons so I got chapter and verse of the mechanics of what he was being taught. All gibberish to me but it clearly wasn't working.

He seemed to want me to provide some insight and as I'm too polite on first meeting to offer my stock advice of "just bloody tw@t it" I muttered something about keeping his head down and practicing on a driving range not the course.

Later on I got the usual "Oh it's easy for you, you just stand there and hit it".

Always amazed by the number of people who think they'll find a miracle cure through lessons and knowing the "mechanics" of the swing. Personally I don't think there's any substitute for learning what works yourself, having been given the basics, and practicing (at a driving range) it until it becomes automatic. Think that's the muscle memory thing isn't it?

Yup. It's practice, practice, practice....and then more practice. Provided one's practicing the right things.

MustPuttBetter wrote:But there's no way you're a single figure golfer if you can't rely on carrying your 4 iron over 170 yards.

I know Div I players who don't reliably carry a 4-iron more than 170...

MustPuttBetter wrote:If you say so Mac
Funny how everyone always needs to go back and reread your posts to understand what you really mean....

If it's any consolation Mac, I know what you mean...

What do you mean by Div 1, Navy? Div 1 at our place is under 12 so yeah maybe. Cat 1 is under what 5, if that's what you mean, I don't know any

i know at least 2 Cat 1 players who are probably about 160 carry or less with a 4i.

Hend, I can believe that. I know a guy off 11 who is very short. I'm just struggling to believe off 5 or better.
There would be at least 8 holes at my place that this hypothetical 5 handicapper would either be hitting 3 woods into or just couldn't reach. He'd have to be the best 3 wood player in the world or have the short game of Mickleson to only make 5 bogies a round.
Unless of course he can't be confident of clearing 170 with a 4 iron but mysteriously hits the driver 260 a la Mac

Oh hang on, I misread sorry Hend. You know two Cat 1's. How do they do it then? Laser accuracy with a 3 wood?

Thanks navy

I am not sure why you would judge how a player will score based on what club they can hit 170 yards, or do hit from 170?  Especially given the limited scenario outlined above.


mustputt

I really urge to reread the thread and see where the 170 yard number came from. You are starting to make a fool of yourself.

Crikey.

A predominantly golf based discussion. Good work.

I think my 4 iron will fly 200 out of the screws and will generally do 185-190 before roll (often not much roll as I flight everything a bit too high for my liking) so I take Mac's 170 point to choose a lay up (if I've read it right). Depending on how it was going on the day (and what the trouble was big) I'd probably be happy to go for it with a 5 but iffy if I thought I needed a 4 (go figure - although writing it it sounds like I should ditch the 4!).

I think part of the "problem" with me is stopping to think about it. If I stop, think about the shot too much and get out of routine I'll probably miss the shot but if I just walk up, get distance and play it'd work more often. Problem is in my head a 4 iron is definitely a "think about" club and my attitude is too often "it'll be alright" before observing a shiny white missile pounding the surrounding gorse.

One of my most memorable ever shots was with a long iron. There's something special about smashing a 3 iron pin high from 220 yards away.

MustPuttBetter wrote:What do you mean by Div 1, Navy? Div 1 at our place is under 12 so yeah maybe. Cat 1 is under what 5, if that's what you mean, I don't know any

Sorry. Yes, I mean Cat 1. Doh! The fact remains though that just because you don't know any Cat 1s who don't reliably carry a 4-iron over 170, there can't be any. I know several - all excellent golfers. The fact they don't bomb it to some pre-determined stereotype of what a Cat 1 golfer should be doesn't seem to be a problem for them.

super_realist wrote:One of my most memorable ever shots was with a long iron. There's something special about smashing a 3 iron pin high from 220 yards away.

With you there. I can have a pants day and hit a single flush 2-iron laser straight and, suddenly, the day's alright again. That said, I'm a recent convert to the 2-, 3- and 4-hybrids I have in the bag now - still love my long irons but the hybrids were so good it was a no brainer to swap in the end. Use the long irons for practice mostly now.

Navy

Hybrids are so easy to hit compared to long irons that it feels like cheating to use them. Although the more old clubs you see the more you realise hybrids are probably a several hundred year old idea.

As nice as it is, and it is very nice, to flush a long iron in close you just can't ignore the advantage over repeat usage that hybrids offer. And out of rough the hybrid just gets even better compared to a long iron. At some point I will probably convert to 2, 3, 4 and 5 hybrid. At the moment I have only got 2 and 3 hybrids. With that choice of hybrids I may even start to go for the 170 forced carries.

McLaren wrote:Thanks navy

I am not sure why you would judge how a player will score based on what club they can hit 170 yards, or do hit from 170?  Especially given the limited scenario outlined above.


mustputt

I really urge to reread the thread and see where the 170 yard number came from.  You are starting to make a fool of yourself.

Coming from the king of judgement of others and making a fool of himself, you'll forgive me if I give your advice a miss?

Guys I play with have just ditched their hybrids and both opted to carry the Titleist 712u "hybrid" iron to get a lower ball flight. Seems to work for them but the repeat consistency of a normal (have we been using them long enough again to consider them normal, I suppose so) hybrid for me does make them a better option.

Wonder if I'm now just being stubborn continuing to carry a 4 iron...

Although akin to super's point, I hit a "career" 4 iron from 200 to 2 foot in the summer and that was a magnificent feeling (let's ignore the fact that that was but 1 amazing shot amid the more regular lesser efforts for now eh?)

navyblueshorts wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:What do you mean by Div 1, Navy? Div 1 at our place is under 12 so yeah maybe. Cat 1 is under what 5, if that's what you mean, I don't know any

Sorry. Yes, I mean Cat 1. Doh! The fact remains though that just because you don't know any Cat 1s who don't reliably carry a 4-iron over 170, there can't be any. I know several - all excellent golfers. The fact they don't bomb it to some pre-determined stereotype of what a Cat 1 golfer should be doesn't seem to be a problem for them.

Of course it doesn't but it does make it hard for me to believe. We all quote 'fact' from our perspective. Just as your statement that you should always bash it as far down as hole as possible doesn't necessarily mean that's 'correct'. It's all just opinion and point of view.

As I asked, if you know some, how do they do it? PGA tour standard 3 wood games or short games?

McLaren wrote:Navy

Hybrids are so easy to hit compared to long irons that it feels like cheating to use them.  Although the more old clubs you see the more you realise hybrids are probably a several hundred year old idea.

As nice as it is, and it is very nice, to flush a long iron in close you just can't ignore the advantage over repeat usage that hybrids offer.  And out of rough the hybrid just gets even better compared to a long iron.  At some point I will probably convert to 2, 3, 4 and 5 hybrid.  At the moment I have only got 2 and 3 hybrids.  With that choice of hybrids I may even start to go for the 170 forced carries.

Might stick my 19 degree hybrid back in for the weekend

Glad to hear i am a source of inspiration for you. I hope you have a good time with the hybrid.

Roller_Coaster wrote:Guys I play with have just ditched their hybrids and both opted to carry the Titleist 712u "hybrid" iron to get a lower ball flight. Seems to work for them but the repeat consistency of a normal (have we been using them long enough again to consider them normal, I suppose so) hybrid for me does make them a better option.

Wonder if I'm now just being stubborn continuing to carry a 4 iron...

Although akin to super's point, I hit a "career" 4 iron from 200 to 2 foot in the summer and that was a magnificent feeling (let's ignore the fact that that was but 1 amazing shot amid the more regular lesser efforts for now eh?)

The guys that want to "hit it lower"...they're all high club speed bombers and low handicaps? Why would anyone "want to hit it lower", unless playing in a gale on links?? Do they know that, in actual fact, hitting a modern trajectory with the driver (i.e. up-angle attack, low spin, high dynamic loft etc), even into a stiff breeze, is longer than trying to hit it "under the wind"? Do they get great backspin with their 712u utility irons to stop the ball on the green as a hybrid, amazingly, seems to be able to do?
Or, are they simply buying the latest, greatest thing simply to say "Look at me!"?

Edit: I have no problem at all hitting the ball low(ish) if I want with the hybrids I carry. Maybe not as low as I could conjure with the corresponding iron but how often do I want to hit a low bullet with a long iron cf. hitting a nice, long, towering hybrid which holds on the green, having carried that front trap? Not often...!

MustPuttBetter wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:What do you mean by Div 1, Navy? Div 1 at our place is under 12 so yeah maybe. Cat 1 is under what 5, if that's what you mean, I don't know any

Sorry. Yes, I mean Cat 1. Doh! The fact remains though that just because you don't know any Cat 1s who don't reliably carry a 4-iron over 170, there can't be any. I know several - all excellent golfers. The fact they don't bomb it to some pre-determined stereotype of what a Cat 1 golfer should be doesn't seem to be a problem for them.

Of course it doesn't but it does make it hard for me to believe. We all quote 'fact' from our perspective. Just as your statement that you should always bash it as far down as hole as possible doesn't necessarily mean that's 'correct'. It's all just opinion and point of view.

As I asked, if you know some, how do they do it? PGA tour standard 3 wood games or short games?

Nope. Facts actually do support the conjecture that distance is the killer I'm afraid. It's not simply "my opinion". For one thing, get a copy of that book I mentioned some time back (Lowest Score Wins) and have a look at some of the information compiled in there or go joust with its writer on thesandtrap.com.

As for the Cat 1s I'm referring to, two of them were very good players when younger and simply hit it well, straight and have excellent short games. If they're hitting a 4-iron reliably (not the odd one out of the screws) at, or slightly less than, 170 carry, they're carrying, say, a 5w around 200 and a driver around 220-230 (that's carry) so they aren't "short" by any rational descriptor. Maybe they're short by internet standards though...
The other one I can think of never was very long but is very straight, has great course management and has a short game to die for. He isn't "short" either though really.

Cat 1 isn't so unreasonable if a player has sound mechanics, the time to practice and a brain to go with it. All that said, if they hit it further than they do, I'm sure they'd be lower.

navyblueshorts wrote:Nope. Facts actually do support the conjecture that distance is the killer I'm afraid. It's not simply "my opinion". For one thing, get a copy of that book I mentioned some time back (Lowest Score Wins) and have a look at some of the information compiled in there or go joust with its writer on thesandtrap.com.

As for the Cat 1s I'm referring to, two of them were very good players when younger and simply hit it well, straight and have excellent short games. If they're hitting a 4-iron reliably (not the odd one out of the screws) at, or slightly less than, 170 carry, they're carrying, say, a 5w around 200 and a driver around 220-230 (that's carry) so they aren't "short" by any rational descriptor. Maybe they're short by internet standards though...
The other one I can think of never was very long but is very straight, has great course management and has a short game to die for. He isn't "short" either though really.

Cat 1 isn't so unreasonable if a player has sound mechanics, the time to practice and a brain to go with it. All that said, if they hit it further than they do, I'm sure they'd be lower.

Exactly my point. You've read something in some book, you believe it so you present it as fact. It's not a fact, it's just that you like someone's theory that 'proves' it to you. You can pick almost any topic in the world and find conflicting 'facts' that will prove completely differing opinions. Likewise I could pick almost any stance on anything and find myself some facts to 'prove' it. End of the day, it's point of view, taste and opinion.

Anyway, on topic, straight or otherwise, I'm struggling to accept that someone who couldn't reach 8 of the holes at my place without hitting a wood can get round making no more than 5 bogies without an absolutely world class short game. The sort of short game that would have seen them on tour before the length diminished. I guess I will continue to struggle to believe it until I see someone who can. And I haven't. Fact

mustputt

Do you have the lack of comprehension skills that your last post indicates or do eight of your holes have forced carries in front of the green?

Bless you Mac

Why have such a petty response?

Because you're simple and I'm wasting my time and certainly not interested in your goading. Keep trying though

MustPuttBetter wrote:Exactly my point. You've read something in some book, you believe it so you present it as fact. It's not a fact, it's just that you like someone's theory that 'proves' it to you. You can pick almost any topic in the world and find conflicting 'facts' that will prove completely differing opinions. Likewise I could pick almost any stance on anything and find myself some facts to 'prove' it. End of the day, it's point of view, taste and opinion.

Anyway, on topic, straight or otherwise, I'm struggling to accept that someone who couldn't reach 8 of the holes at my place without hitting a wood can get round making no more than 5 bogies without an absolutely world class short game. The sort of short game that would have seen them on tour before the length diminished. I guess I will continue to struggle to believe it until I see someone who can. And I haven't. Fact

At least I've read it and guess what? It's got numbers and analysis in it. It's impossible to discuss something when one party (you) takes the sort of view that you have, which is basing things purely on anecdote and observations of small (i.e. one or, at most, a couple) samples. Done with discussing this. You do your thing, I'll do mine.
Your comment that "I guess I will continue to struggle to believe it until I see someone who can. And I haven't." is exactly the sort of thing that people said when the idea that the World is flat was prevalent. Asinine.

There are numbers and therefore it must be correct ha. As I said you can 'prove ' almost anything. You just happen to like the theory and that's fine but it's no fact.

And people believed the world was flat because someone else had done the 'research' and told them as much. Bit like your book eh?

Ps id rather base my opinion on my observations than someone else's. No anecdote. And a sample of one or two? You think I've played with 'at most' two Cat 1 players? Hmm.....

mustputt

Unless you are arguing some philosophical point about it not being possible to have absolute certainty about anything, then I am not sure what point you are making? It is possible to use a scientific and rational method to determine with a great deal of certainty that something reflects reality. So no, it is not just opinion, and never will be given that we have the concept of evidence.

Of course just because someone likes a theory it doesn't make it fact, but did navy ever say that was the case. He tried to point out that there is evidence which suggests that the long game is an important aspect of lowering scores.


Can you also explain why the process of re-evaluating evidence and concepts (eg world used to be flat) means it is not possible to believe (ie be convinced something is true) that evidence can ever show something to closely reflect reality?

No, Mac, I won't. I've run out of enthusiasm for discussion with you.  
I would have thought that someone who requires as much parental supervision as I suspect you do wold have been taught some manners. Alas, no

Getting a few remarks on here now about "internet length". That's something that get to me and I see it with non-internet friends at my club

I wonder how many people really *carry* the ball as far as they claim?

I've SEEN it with my own eyes with friends at my club. Talking about clubs to use on particular par 3s - especially ones with bunkers or water at the front of the green.

I'm not going to quote exact figures, as I can't remember and my own hitting is very short so I'm not going to try to call them out on exact figures ... but take this as an example....

I'm a tapper .. I don't hit the ball far. I can probably hit a 5 iron about 155-160 - OFF THE TEE and with roll. But the carry is maybe only 145? (I have a natural high ball flight when I hit it right)

So a 145 yard par 3 with bunker in front? I can get there with a 6 or even 7 on a good day and certainly would if the bunker wasn't there - but often I'll hit that easy 5 and with the ball flight, if it hits the green as intended it will stop and I won't be too far away. All too often I hear guys who say then can hit an 8 iron that far - and they probably can - but they get confused when they find themselves in that front sand.

My regular playing partner is also not terribly long (he's older than me too) - but perhaps one club longer than me. I'm hitting the easy 5 in and he puts his 7 in the front trap. Who is right?