R&A Pace of Play Questionnaire

First topic message reminder :

R&A Pace of Play Questionnaire

I guess many of you may get this through your clubs from the R&A anyway but thought it might be worthy of sticking in a topic. Only takes a couple of minutes to do anyway (and probably won't make the blindest bit of difference). Sorry if the inserted link is cocked up the address is:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/PaceofPlayTest

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:

Davie wrote:Don't know about anyone else but I'm loving the usually inscrutable s_r defending the sort of "science" that he normally scorns. Flying spaghetti monsters and witchcraft are so NOT s_r (usually)

I agree, he is hanging onto a slightly odd interpretation of one paper.  Hardly the way of a man of evidence.

Mac, The paper mentions clearly that plumb bobbing can be used to determine the orientation of the break (i.e left to right, right to left). I don't see your issue.

Putting the correct pace on it, isn't something that people are claiming can be achieved with the method.

Actually, it doesn't. It simply says it can be used to determine slope at the hole - that's not the same as the overall break on a putt.

All these messages and I still haven't got a clue what plum bobbing is or how you do it, I'd never heard of it in the first place. But it seems like many things if someone believes it helps them then that's all that matters.

No, it's not a psychological crutch, it's a valid method of ascertaining which way (not how much) a putt breaks near the hole.

Blimey - its ages since I posted on here and it appears that nothing has changed!

Do you think this guy has been plumb bobbing?
https://youtu.be/TicK5gW6sLE

Pedro

Nice video.

You can play a similar shot on the 15th at gullane number 3. Actually on a few of Doaks holes it is possible to play a putt to the edges of the green and have it come back to the pin position. Barnbougle has a par three where many routes off and back onto the green exist.

Of course length of rough is a factor and a major one but is only so because of not managing the situation properly...i.e. if in any doubt, hit a provisional. If I've hit one into an area where I might have difficulty, provisional every time. If you don't find a ball in the rough within a couple of minutes the chances are you're not going to and if you do you're going to seriously struggle with the next shot...which then introduces another factor...being too ambitious from a Poopie lie, usual result being an even Poopie lie 50-100 yards further on or a lost ball.

Having said that, much as I detest slow play I'm just back from a surfing weekend in Cornwall with quite a large dollop of perspective this evening.

It is surprising how unwilling people are to hit a provisional when you consider it is a free practice shot. If i am playing poorly and a shot goes anywhere near the thicker rough I take the chance to hit a provisional and try to regain a feeling in my swing.

Perhaps if you had taken a practice swing you might not have needed a practice shot Mac

McLaren wrote:It is surprising how unwilling people are to hit a provisional when you consider it is a free practice shot.  If i am playing poorly and a shot goes anywhere near the thicker rough I take the chance to hit a provisional and try to regain a feeling in my swing.

Good point Mac, I do find it annoying when someone walks back to the tee, especially when they don't say thanks.

MustPuttBetter wrote:Ok i think i'm with you. I will give it a go tomorrow and see if it helps, cheers

Well what's the verdict then MPB?

Ha Blue, to be honest, i'm not sure!

I wasted a really good round on Saturday by putting really badly! They had stabbed holes in our greens and covered them in sand and so putts were doing the usual jumping and skidding all over the place and were really slow. That's me making excuses a little bit as it shouldn't take me 9 holes to work out i need to hit them harder, and i missed 3 from within 4 feet on the front 9 which isn't much to do with anything but me.

Having said all that, i do think the plumb bobbing helped. In my mind felt a lot more confident about knowing the break. Not necessarily exactly knowing how much it would break but just on those ones where you're not sure if it's one way or the other (usually i hit them straight at the hole if in doubt!) i felt i had at least made a decision, be it right or wrong, and pretty much all of the time it was right. I just didn't reach the hole enough to hole anything.

So, i'm definitely going to give it another go. I'll be honest, i didn't expect to find any value in it at all.

The only problem i have with it is if the putt breaks more than a foot or two. By the nature of the technique plumb bobbing can't possibly show you more than a foot or so's break so if you get one where it's more it's fundementally flawed in that respect but i'm still quite happy that with the marginal ones it helps

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:It is surprising how unwilling people are to hit a provisional when you consider it is a free practice shot.  If i am playing poorly and a shot goes anywhere near the thicker rough I take the chance to hit a provisional and try to regain a feeling in my swing.

Good point Mac, I do find it annoying when someone walks back to the tee, especially when they don't say thanks.

Yep, pretty much the view I take as well Mac, I just can't get my head round people not taking provisionals when there is doubt, both from a speed of play and for the eradication of a poor shot from the consciousness. I get particularly annoyed if I say "ooh dunno, better hit a provisional to be safe" and I get a "Nah it'll be fine". I've even been known to say "if you hit a Provo I'll help you look for you're original, if you think it's fine then fine, you won't need my help...ok?

I believe some people think that if they hit a provisional then they and their partners will be less interested in finding the original - that somehow hitting a provisional is an admission of loss. Which is of course ridiculous.

I find it harder to find my first ball if I've hit a provisional. When I hit the ball somewhere I might lose it, I always try and get a line on it and focus on a spot in the rough where it should be, this might mean identifying a twig or a coloured leaf etc. In order to hit a good provisional, I've got to try and forget about my original shot into the rough and visualise what the shot should look like. Assuming I do this successfully and nail my provisional down the middle of the fairway, it's then really hard to remember exactly where the first one was, and find that twig, leaf etc.

Maybe I'm tight but the golf ball I'm playing has a significant impact on the time / effort I spend looking for it.

Pinnacle sailing into the woods, reload couldn't care less. Shiny new Pro V1and I'm finding that little baby!

I can't believe that you ever hit a Pinnacle Ray...

Shiny new Pro V1 on the first tee yesterday morning, congratulating myself walking off the tee after a great drive on 18 for not having to look for it once. 9 iron into the green, caught in fat...Plop!...straight into the middle of the pond guarding the green. Grr...bloody stupid game!

Does anyone know how "lost" a ball has to look from the tee before you play a provisional? As far as I can remember the rules are worded in a way that you could hit a provisional even if your ball was in the middle of the fairway or clearly on the green.

Well, I've seen balls lost seemingly hit into the middle of a fairway so , can't see why you can't call one whenever you like.

super_realist wrote:Well, I've seen balls lost seemingly hit into the middle of a fairway so , can't see why you can't call one whenever you like.

I have to agree with this and have often wondered what would prevent you calling a provisional after every shot and using it as a way to practice or keep your swing going. Especially when the round is slow it feels like a long time between shots, you could just keep hitting two balls every shot as a way to stay in the swing of things or iron out an issue.

You could...

You'd be very annoying and very shortly partnerless not only for that round but I'd guess any other round after the word got out, but I guess you could.

Try it when SR takes you round Trumpton Mac...

And don't forget to check that Bob's not playing behind you either!...

Don't think his bus pass covers the trip to Trump

McLaren wrote:Does anyone know how "lost" a ball has to look from the tee before you play a provisional? As far as I can remember the rules are worded in a way that you could hit a provisional even if your ball was in the middle of the fairway or clearly on the green.

Rule 27-2 says "if a ball may be lost outside a water hazard, or maybe out of bounds, a player may play another ball provisionally..."

A player hitting provisionals when his ball is clearly on the green, or likely to be in the middle of the fairway, then he's likely to be deemed to be in breach of 7-2. I agree you could get away with it for a while if you can't see your ball - even if it's likely to be ok - but it would get pretty tiresome to play with someone who hits 10 provisionals in a round.

As an interesting aside, I played a course a few weeks ago which had power lines crossing the fairways of a few holes. On one of these holes, I pushed my drive and wasn't sure where it ended up. The guys ahead seemed to be indicating it was in trouble, so I took a provisional. In the event, the first one was fine. I then proceeded to hit my second shot which touched the power lines and dropped like a stone. The local rule is you have to take the shot again. So I did, and hit the power lines again. And again, and again. The fifth attempt was thinned, and missed the power lines, landing on the front of the green and rolling up to 10 feet. I holed it for a birdie three. Meanwhile my pals behind are yelling 'it's a stableford!!' at me. There was a lot of explaining to do in the bar about how I'd hit eight shots down there, but walked off with three points.

super_realist wrote:Don't think his bus pass covers the trip to Trump

I think it is more likely that supers wallet can't cope with paying two green fees for trumpton.

Mac, I'm more concerned at the Dunlop bag not being allowed across the threshold.

Mind you, paying for a guy who's going to hit 10 provisionals per hole could be grating.

If I recall correctly a lad I know was playing in an amateur event I think at Portrush this year. I was told he hit something like 13 provisionals one round, including I think 5 off one tee, (I hasten to add all with justifiable reason!) but actually found his original ball each time and ended up shooting something around par.

Presumably he'd hit that many shots he'd ironed out whatever flaw there was by the end...

Good story George!

So: How do you all treat balls lost in the fairway, a common occurrence in the New England/New York autumns when leaves are covering the ground? Question applies obviously to non-competition - we often establish a local rule that, if all other players agree the ball should be in the short grass, we allow a judgment to be made where we agree it should be found.

In the casual games I play we usually allow the player to drop a ball roughly where it looked to have landed if it plugs in anything other than serious cabbage.

Mac, kwini,
Makes sense. We're playing for fun, not pedantry.

I assume you are talking casual games played to something like stableford scoring?

Lost ball and no provisional then blob the hole. Easy.

I'm surprised you have your own rule and don't even apply a one shot penalty, never mind two. In my experience when someone loses a ball the "judgement of where it should be" is usually 20-30 yards forward of where it really is.

IMO if you want to let someone keep playing in a friendly game under those circumstances then it should be a two shot penalty .. but just blob the hole is a better solution

Davie

I only play matchplay. It would also be odd to take the game so seriously that I started to quibble over a few yards.

When I go out for a knock with a couple of mates we don't score it's just practise, pleasure and Wee weeing about. If a ball vanishes on the fairway (we have a couple where plugging and disappearing does happen occasionally in the winter) then sure, just drop one.

If it is a game of any sort involving relative performance of players (which tbh is only ever an "organised" one in my case) then of course blob or loss of hole as appropriate.

I'm with Roller, when i play with mates, which seems to be more and more rare these days , we don't keep score. We might keep a rough track of who's leading the matchplay but we certainly don't apply handicaps or anything

Playing scratch matchplay is the only way to really enjoy golf.

I'm pretty much the same Mac, I completely lose interest when you add strokes into the equation.

Probably play about 10-12 strokeplay rounds a year.

We know that matchplay used to be the dominant form of the game in the late 19th and early 20th century, but when did strokeplay take over and why? Do people really play a less interesting form of the game now, like sheep, just because it is what the pro's play?

I would say stableford is the most common form of golf played, rather than straight medal type strokeplay

Depends where you live I suppose. In Scotland in the clubs I've been a member of, Stableford is pretty rare.

Really, that's interesting

In the winter my current club have a moratorium on medals and have two weekend qualifying stablefords a month. So for the next 4 months or so I'll be playing basically nothing but stablefords

Think we have one stableford a month for competitions, although if you're on an outing or something then it's usually stableford.

EDIT - I HAVE MOVED THIS COMMENT TO MAC'S NEW THREAD

Ours is majoritarily (?) stableford which is an approach I agree with from a club perspective (a disaster doesn't ruin a round thus retaining players interest and enjoyment).

I like occasional medals as it rewards plugging away for a whole round but would be a bit depressed if it were medal play every week, or even predominantly. Yes it's a better test of golf, but I'd guess the majority of people aren't out solely (or even primarily) to test their golf ability, but to have fun.

Scratch matchplay may be the purest form, but doesn't engender itself to club competition where there are so many levels of play it's simply unfair to all bar the elite, not to mention the amount of time it would take to complete a competition. I'd warrant that time prevents all but a few handicap matchplay comps too.

If (and I bow to the historians of the game) match play was indeed prevalent, I think stroke play eclipsed match play in for that reason. But also, matchplay doesn't generally use the whole course (particularly if "better" players play those not as good without handicap adjustment) thus leaving everyone from the players through the establishment up to the course designers feeling short changed. While scratch matchplay might have been the staple once, surely the intent has always been to use the whole layout and a move to full course competition inevitable.

I'd say it was inevitable for matchplay to be overtaken, although when that actually was I have no idea.

McLaren wrote:Playing scratch matchplay is the only way to really enjoy golf.

Oh really; such certainty does you no credit whatsoever. And I'll bet you get very little enjoyment from playing someone who is vastly better than you - not much fun in being beaten 8 & 7, although you might enjoy watching your opponent.

One of the great beauties of this great game is the handicap system. This allows me to play Rory McIlroy and make a game of it. Try playing Roger Federer at tennis or Michael van Gerwin at darts or Magnus Carlsen at Chess or Ronnie O'Sullivan at snooker or.....

eye

I genuinely take no pleasure from my nett score in golf. Whether that be in strokeplay or in gaining shots to beat an opponent in matchplay.

Mac knows everything didn't you know? He also knows how people should behave and what they should take offence at.


I agree with him that I have no interest in Nett Score. If I shoot in the 60's gross though, I'm genuinely happy about that.

Interestingly enough chess has its own rating system and if you played Magnus Carlson, you'd start with all 16 pieces on the board whereas he'd be missing a few. They don't play it that way very often but some clubs do it for the reason you mentioned. Anybody can play anybody and still have a chance. I used to play chess a lot but it was very time consuming, and then I discovered golf.

Of course I take an interest in my net score. It's no different from taking an interest in my gross score. If the net is below CSS then I've played below my handicap, if not.

I play the game seriously BUT it's not my living so net/gross is a measure of how well I'm playing.

eye

If you don't break 80 it is a bad score no matter what your handicap is. There is little point in being content with dreadful play. I often talk about just playing to enjoy the game but having a basic competency for playing the game can really add to the enjoyment. The better you get the more shots you have at your disposal to tackle the course. This does not mean an obsession with score and handicap, but mastering the shots of the game. Never breaking 80 would be a sign (many other signs will exist) that you are lacking in some fundamental skills of the game.

Mac

Up until now I've given you the benefit of the doubt but some of your latest posting is utter drivel eg
"If you don't break 80 it is a bad score no matter what your handicap is...." I've played Royal Birkdale in a competition and in tough conditions where the CSS was 79. Hardly anyone broke 80 and they would be delighted to read that you think they are incompetent. I respectfully (sic) suggest that you move on to another subject.

Ok, 80 was a generalization. As I went on to say "never breaking 80 would be a sign that you are lacking some fundamental skills". (Side note: does anyone ever bother to read all of a post. It seems you always have to point out a part someone has missed?)

So you could shoot high 80's with a 22 handicap and think it is a good day but surely you would recognise there is more to be had from the game in terms of shot making and how to overcome a course? Hence my comment about nett scores meaning nothing to me. I can come away from a round perfectly happy if I have pulled off one shot that really meant something. The better you are the more often that sort of satisfaction occurs. 80 was nothing more than a proxy for determining a general skill level.