R&A Pace of Play Questionnaire

First topic message reminder :

R&A Pace of Play Questionnaire

I guess many of you may get this through your clubs from the R&A anyway but thought it might be worthy of sticking in a topic. Only takes a couple of minutes to do anyway (and probably won't make the blindest bit of difference). Sorry if the inserted link is cocked up the address is:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/PaceofPlayTest

Mac you clearly have a comprehension issue .. I have NO doubt that racism and sexism exist - I see it myself every day almost.

My point was that some things YOU perceive as racist or sexist aren't perceived that way by myself .. and it has to be said, others here

Just because I don't agree with your definition of sexism doesn't mean I deny its existance .. or that I defend it

non gender specific gingerbread persons

too far or appropriate?

Ridiculous IMO but I've not been overtly oppressed so might have a skewed view.

In most courts, arbitration, or dispute resolution the litmus test is usually "what would a reasonable person think"... so.. not much point asking that question here

Mac, are you paid by somebody to keep this board alive? In that case you do a good job.

McLaren wrote:Navy

I was trying to make it clear to davie that our personal definitions of concepts like racism and sexism do not change whether a behavior is or isn't sexist/racist. You have to look at the evidence of how your actions are effecting other people.

For example it would be hard to argue after reading this http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/28/how-life-for-women-britain-getting-tougher?CMP=share_btn_tw that sexism isn't an issue in 2014 Briton.

Or this video which shows men (who presumably aren't being sexist by their own definition) being extremely sexist; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

You also said, at one point:

McLaren wrote:It is clear that my definition of animal cruelty has no impact on whether an act will actually harm an animal (It just shows what I am willing to not stop happen to the animal).  So are you admitting your definitions of sexism and racism hold a similar risk?

Still not sure what you're alluding to really. I read your position as saying someone's inappropriate attitude re. sexism/racism contributes to society's problems viz. those issues i.e. one (or many) persons attitudes inform and influence the behaviours of others. Therefore, society should watch what it says on these issues. OK, fine so far maybe. Except that your attitude to animal cruelty is just as likely to influence other people's attitudes to animal cruelty. I think, therefore, you're as guilty as those you're accusing really.

You could argue sexism/racism etc is a greater issue than animal cruelty but, morally, I'm not convinced it is really. Still, I'm not sure that was your issue at any point was it?

McLaren wrote:
Or this video which shows men (who presumably aren't being sexist by their own definition) being extremely sexist; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

Am I being racist if I suggest that a disproportionate high amount of the 'offenders' appear to be black?

I saw this story today.
Whilst some of those people are downright rude and the guy who follows her is weird (!), also some of them in no way constitute 'harassment'. One guy says 'have a good evening' - harassment?!

If trying to get the attention/ start a conversation with a member of the opposite sex (or the same sex for that matter) is harassment then I'd wager 99% of us are guilty of it.

I don't even find that girl particularly attractive but each to their own

MustPuttBetter wrote:
I don't even find that girl particularly attractive but each to their own

I'm sure that last sentence will fire mac up!

pedro wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:
I don't even find that girl particularly attractive but each to their own

I'm sure that last sentence will fire mac up!

Yeah, she was downright ordinary, plain and ever so frumpy. Not the sort of person you'd even notice going down the street, I presume this was somehow gerrymandered to create the effect they were so clearly looking for.

pedro wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:
I don't even find that girl particularly attractive but each to their own

I'm sure that last sentence will fire mac up!

Surely, even in Mac's world, you don't have to find every female in the world equally attractive to avoid appearing sexist?

super_realist wrote:Yeah, she was downright ordinary, plain and ever so frumpy. Not the sort of person you'd even notice going down the street, I presume this was somehow gerrymandered to create the effect they were so clearly looking for.

I wonder if anyone thought she was weird for following some poor fella wearing a rucksack around all day!

MustPuttBetter wrote:

super_realist wrote:Yeah, she was downright ordinary, plain and ever so frumpy. Not the sort of person you'd even notice going down the street, I presume this was somehow gerrymandered to create the effect they were so clearly looking for.

I wonder if anyone thought she was weird for following some poor fella wearing a rucksack around all day!

I bet she was stalking him. She looked craving.

In fact women these days often seem much more direct when it comes to approaching men (at bars and stuff). Where men try with compliments and drinks, women just go for the kill. ...Not that we object. So why would women?

In 20 years time when she is walking down the street and nobody is taking any notice of her she perhaps, just might, miss the attention she used to get...

erm, so I'm going to try to fight the women's corner a little here.

Believe me, this is something that does happen, to pretty much all women (well those under the age of 50 at least). Whenever my wife goes out for a walk, she'll get all sorts of looks, comments, etc. She doesn't speak French all that well yet so probably doesn't understand the lewder comments.

Three or four times in the last year, she's been followed around long enough for her to be sufficiently worried to go and take refuge in a lingerie shop (where oddly enough the stalkers don't seem to want to follow), from where she calls me to come and pick her up (she's usually shaking by then).

This is not a joke or laughing matter. Women don't welcome the "attention" of not being able to go out in the street alone without getting whistled at or lewdly looked up and down. That's not how you meet women FFS, no one wants to talk to you after you've just spent a while staring intently at their breasts or rear end!

Sorry for the rant but this thing makes me angry, the last time my wife was litterally shaking with fear when I reached her, it's really quiet distressing to have that sort of thing happen to you.

MadforChelsea, you're absolutely right, of course.
But that video isn't full of men making leud comments or obviously looking her up and down or staring at her breasts.
Yes there are some downright rude behaviours in there, as i said, but there are mostly just a bunch of guys trying in some way to say hello. If that's harrassment or sexism then the human race won't be around for much longer.

How did you meet your wife? Presumably one of you approached the other unsolicited?

MustPuttBetter wrote:MadforChelsea, you're absolutely right, of course.
But that video isn't full of men making leud comments or obviously looking her up and down or staring at her breasts.
Yes there are some downright rude behaviours in there, as i said, but there are mostly just a bunch of guys trying in some way to say hello. If that's harrassment or sexism then the human race won't be around for much longer.

Yes and no. Some of it I would say is fine, some of it is obviously unacceptable (the looking up and down, and of course the stalking). I think the problem women have with it is that they get this basically all the time, so even if it's not always nasty it can get particularly wearisome after a while. I would say there's a time, place and way of talking to someone unsolicited, and that almost all of this video breaches that. For me a person walking quite briskly and looking in a hurry is not someone you should be approaching really, equally you read stories of women sitting down in a coffee shop and reading a book quietly only to have some idiot sit down next to them unsolicited and start trying to "chat her up": surely reading a book is a fairly clear sign saying "don't want to interact with the world, thank you"?

MustPuttBetter wrote:
How did you meet your wife? Presumably one of you approached the other unsolicited?

Not really. She's the best friend of my old flatmate's then-boyfriend (now husband? spouse? whatever the PC term is for same-sex marriages). Said boyfriend came to stay with us (well with my flatmate, obviously ) for a while. She came to visit for a week, we had room so she stayed with us. Got to know each other a bit, then one day when chatting on FB she says she's lonely (her best friend having at this stage left to go back to China - but that's a whole other story). I respond with "you can come visit us in Bordeaux any time", she goes "why don't you come to Madrid?" (this being where we were respectively living at the time), I accepted, and the rest, as they say, is history (or at least should probably not be told on what are meant to be work-friendly boards just kidding, it was very romantic really...). Now celebrating our first wedding anniversary on Sunday

I would say if you want to approach someone, unsolicited, there's a proper way of doing it. I've never done this, being a shy b#gger, but am reliably informed by my female friends (who are fairly unanimous in this) that they prefer to be approached:
a) in a place which is well set for socialising, such as a pub, coffee shop, etc.
b) for the first comment to not be a reference that could be interpreted as sexual or in general, on their appearance (they'd prefer something like "I like your bag" I gather).
c) for the approach to be made in a courteous way which gives them a possibility of basically saying "sorry, not interested" and have that wish respected (which will be the vast majority of cases I'm afraid).

Again, I've never actually tried any of this, or even approaching a woman (or man for that matter) I didn't known, or someone sharing in my activities (like a new member of the choir I sing in, or a new PhD student in my work group). This is just the message I've got from my female friends.

Right, that's it. Soon as I can get down to Starbucks I'll be complementing women on their bags. Should have a girlfriend by lunchtime

Then on the first part we're essentially agreed. Some of it is unacceptable but on the most part i'd say it isn't. Yes it may be tiresome accepted but I honestly don't think that all women get this all the time. And plus, I drive to work every day and the traffic is tiresome. That doesn't mean other drivers are harassing me.

Harrassment is offensive - this isn't. Repetitive - this isn't. Intended to upset - this isn't.

Re your wife, that's a great story and I'm genuinely glad it worked out for you, but my point was one of you at some point must have approached the other unsolicited. If not, 99% that will have happened in other relationships. I met my wife at work, she was reading, it turned out not to be a sign that she wasn't intereted in a chat.
Generally its accepted that you can approach someone. You might get told to get lost but it's not harassment. Maybe you wouldn't try and talk to someone on the street but you can't say it's ok as long as you do it how I would

All just my opinion of course

super_realist wrote:Right, that's it. Soon as I can get down to Starbucks  I'll be complementing women on their bags. Should have a girlfriend by lunchtime

Choose your words carefully SR, you don't want her to think that you are insulting her!

I couldn't pull a rotten tooth out of a dead horse Blue.

MfC - nice story, congratulations for Sunday btw.

MPB, it's a difficult balance. One of the problems for me is that while women are getting closer to equality in some (most) respects, it's still expected in most cases that the man should be the one to "make a move" (yes I know it's changed, but we're a long way from 50-50 on that I would guess).

The only thing I really disagree with your post is "I honestly don't think that all women get this all the time". I think they do, certainly it's the impression I get from my wife and my (young-ish) female friends. Obviously it doesn't happen when they're accompanied by men (or much less frequently), but when they're alone or in female groups I suspect it's a common occurence. Some women don't get bothered by it, but plenty do.

"Generally it's accepted that you can approach someone". Certainly, provided you do so in a courteous manner (i.e. not staring at their breasts ) and if they make it clear they're not interested (which will happen in most cases), you back off immediately.

I'm not entirely sure that most of the comments in the video are real attempts to approach: they seem to me to be quite a few simple gratuitious comments on her looks/body, which to me is a form of harrassment.

Fair enough MFC

I agree that the expectation on men to make the moves is part of the problem. Also the fact that most men, me included, just aren't very good at it. Also the fact the 90% of the men that approach a woman she isn't going to be interested in.

Whilst it's obviously not all or nothing, i'm pretty certain women who never get flirted with are more miserable than those who get too much. And you've got to factor in, if a person (male or female) is happy for those they find attractive to approach them, then some who they don't fancy will do also.

We'll agree to differ on whether it happens all the time or not, the honest answer is i don't know when i'm not around.

I'm not sure a single comment can de facto be harrassment, and the vast majority of those guys are not particularly rude and do back off (ie not follow her), the one weirdo aside

As Roller says, congrats on your anniversary

Thank you for the great points you have made MFC, I usually fight a lone battle on this type of topic.

If the video and explanation from MFC are not sufficient to persuade people that street harassment is a horrible experience for women I am unsure what to add. Maybe you need to think about receiving such comments in the context of a lifetime of sexist comments while living in a culture that puts massive pressure on women to look a certain way to fulfill male sexual desires. It is impossible for a bunch of white middle class British men to understand what that kind of discrimination feels like.

I think the point is that you could repeat that "experiment" in a hundred cities around the world, and I doubt you'd get anything like that sort of reaction.

I've walked around tons of cities in loads of countries and I don't recall ever seeing a women receive those sort of comments.

Great, as long as super doesn't see sexism happen then it doesn't exist. Super, I am losing faith that you are rationalist.

What about female "sexual desires"? Seems you're discriminating again Mac - pretty much equal opportunity in my experience, I'm happy to say.

(Glad to see you appear to have elevated yourself to the "middle class" - has your bus-pass been means-tested away from you?)

McLaren wrote:Great, as long as super doesn't see sexism happen then it doesn't exist.  Super, I am losing faith that you are rationalist.

I'm not saying that Mac, I'm saying that it appeared to be embellished somewhat in that video. Perhaps the city in which it was filmed in was particularly bad for it, perhaps it was obvious she was being filmed, who knows, but I don't see it as representative of every city or male.

Fair enough?

There seems to be another video today of a guy walking around a big city getting harassed. It's hosted by a site I can't get to from the office so I can't say if it is a reasonable response to the original, or if it is satire .. I'll try to check it out from home later

kwinigolfer wrote:What about female "sexual desires"? Seems you're discriminating again Mac - pretty much equal opportunity in my experience, I'm happy to say.

(Glad to see you appear to have elevated yourself to the "middle class" - has your bus-pass been means-tested away from you?)

Kwini, I am not sure what you mean, but I will agree that I could just as well have said something along the lines of "women face greater pressures to meet a sexualised ideal".

Mac, Even if you consider making those comments to a lady walking down the street to be some sort of abuse / harassment, how on earth is it sexist??
Should a heterosexual man make an attempt to chat up men and women in order to avoid appearing discriminatory in his choices? And then what, sleep with both genders to avoid being sexist in his preferences?
What an utterly ludicrous argument you are making

SR, obviously it's not representative of all males, and I don't think anyone's trying to make out that it is: even in the video, you can reasonably assume that if she was harassed 100 times in 10 hours of walking she'd have crossed paths with probably at least 10 000 men or so in that time, especially in a busy city like NY, so at most 1 in 100 and probably less.

However I do believe it's representative to some extent of all cities (or at least western cities). As mentioned, it happens to my wife in Bordeaux, probably on about the same scale. I suspect Men don't notice because a) it's not directed at them, and b) the men who make these comments don't do it when women are in company of other men. I don't notice it happening where I live, but obviously it does (either that or I have to accuse my wife of being a liar, something I'm not entire comfortable with )

Men, decent men, don't notice it, and that IMO is why these videos are a good thing, if only to raise awareness. What decent men can do to help is obviously another debate altogether...

McLaren wrote:Thank you for the great points you have made MFC, I usually fight a lone battle on this type of topic.

If the video and explanation from MFC are not sufficient to persuade people that street harassment is a horrible experience for women I am unsure what to add.  Maybe you need to think about receiving such comments in the context of a lifetime of sexist comments while living in a culture that puts massive pressure on women to look a certain way to fulfill male sexual desires.  It is impossible for a bunch of white middle class British men to understand what that kind of discrimination feels like.

Mac. Your problem (and that of others) is that you think that everything and everyone is sexist (racist/homophobic/etc) based on a single comment and that such comments and their appropriateness is defined only by you. You also think the nuclear option for anyone using any remarks of that type is, apparently, the only way to go. This attitude, which you seem to have, does no-one any good at all and simply gets peoples backs up. I also have a problem with your conflation of discrimination with just plain stupid/dumb/demeaning/etc but that's another issue.

Personally, I also think the targets of discriminatory comments also need to stand on their own two feet somewhat (although I accept that there are plenty of times when this might not be easy and plenty of people aren't as argumentative as I am) and learn that they can't rely purely on other people fighting their battles for them. In other words, answer back. Genuinely discriminatory remarks are so mind-numbingly stupid at all levels that they should be an easy put down.

I (and I suspect many others here and elsewhere) agree that many of the remarks you jump up and down about are probably worth re-examining but there's a lot of shades of grey between your black and white. The strident nature of your (and far too many other people's) reaction to anything of this type sets any sensible conversation back when there's obviously room for decent discussion.
To go back to Bishop for a moment, you seem to think it's obvious (and the only option) that he should have been sacked and then executed forthwith for his daft comments. I agree with you that they were dumb and, arguably, offensive to little girls or, indeed, men (Poulter specifically in that he was being compared to a little girl) but I think the absurdly PC reaction, commentary and his summary dismissal were utterly absurd.

I, personally, also have a big problem with the hypocrisy and consistency of this whole area. Fine if people want to cry out about perceived discrimination in one area, but that sort of thinking should be applied across the board, about anything, everything and anyone. This isn't the case though is it?


On the subject of the video linked earlier of the woman in NY, I have to say I agree with you in that the vast majority of comments in that clip are...interesting...to say the least. It's hard to tell whether she ever answers any of the more persistent men - I would have thought a simple "No" or some such to their enquiries might have shut them down. I'm in two minds whether I'd describe them as 'sexist' as I'd tend to define 'sexist' as directly discriminatory whereas these are just inappropriate/rude/demeaning. So some dumbass guy says "Damn!" as she walks past - is that 'sexist'? Not of itself I would say, but I might agree with you if you were to suggest that what they say is an extrapolation of their general attitude towards women, which may well include sexist behaviours - but then that would be stereotyping and I'm not sure that isn't offensive to someone, somewhere.

BlueCoverman wrote:In 20 years time when she is walking down the street and nobody is taking any notice of her she perhaps, just might, miss the attention she used to get...

No, no, no, and a thousand times no !!  Trust me, there are many youthful situations that the more (ahem) mature woman looks back on with wistful fondness, but this is not one of them, and I sympathize with Mrs. MFC (congratulations on your first anniversary by the way !).

It's easy to watch the video and say that they were mostly harmless comments and that nobody persisted apart from the one creepy stalker.  But she wouldn't have known that at the time, just as she wouldn't have known that the wierdo wouldn't follow her home.  Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to find that in order to make a point, they targeted a neighborhood where this might be more likely to happen -- sort of like walking around building sites in the UK (if memory serves me right !).

True Plunky but that's a reflection on society today more than it is evidence of some sort of harassment.  
If I was walking through Harlem and a few people asked me if I needed directions I'd be genuinely worried I was going to get robbed. Doesn't mean those people have done anything wrong though

I presume Mac in his right-on-edness has never
A) looked at a woman whilst walking down the street
B) had his head turned by a woman
C) caught one out of the corner of his eye, whilst on the bus.

Now, it's obviously out of order to make comments to people, but it's almost impossible not to at least have a glance if you see someone that catches your eye.

how about "a woman’s place is in the kitchen and not on a football field", I'm sure we can all agree this is rather sexist?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:how about "a woman’s place is in the kitchen bed and not on a football field", I'm sure we can all agree this is rather sexist?

Men are better chefs so I corrected it.

Of course it is
Although I must say, a fluorescent bulb needed changing at my office today and I had to do it as a couple of the girls said it was mans work. I'm thinking about pressing charges

pedro wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:how about "a woman’s place is in the kitchen bed and not on a football field", I'm sure we can all agree this is rather sexist?

Men are better chefs so I corrected it.

isn't there a famous quote along those lines: "whoever said women's place was in the kitchen obviously has no idea what do to with them in the bedroom"?

Women's place is in the kitchen and in the bedroom. If they complain we can move the bed into the kitchen.

As Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, take your clothes off."

pedro wrote:Women's place is in the kitchen and in the bedroom. If they complain we can move the bed into the kitchen.

Where will you move the motorbike to?

The line between being pleasant and harassment is a fine one and somewhat in the eye of the target.  Although there are examples on that video that are clearly and significantly over the line in both directions - from a simple hello to 5 minutes of stalking.

Making love to aBeing nice to a female stranger is a like lot an approach shot on the 15th at Augusta - you give it your best swing, spin it the amount you feel is just right and hope for the best.  It might be well received and get you close to err ummm the hole, or it might strike a hard place and you are rebuffed - sent tumbling back into the hazard (take note Tiger).

I think it's the duty of the initiating party to err on the side of caution, be respectful and read the situation well enough to bail out apologetically if it's not welcome.  Of course what the video doesn't show is all the people who thought about making an approach and didn't, who stole a glance and that was it, who smiled and moved on when it wasn't returned etc etc.  The video is a bit like filming rain drops and then concluding it always rains.  

That said, some men are d1cks and women do get a lot more unwanted and unpleasant advances than men.

Here's a guy who has no problem with pace of play: "With a 4-over 76 in 46 minutes and one second, Eri Crum of Boise, Idaho, won the 2014 Speedgolf World Championship on Sunday at Bandon Dunes in Oregon"

Impressive, eh?

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/former-tiger-teammate-wins-speedgolf-world-championship/

Wow.

That is fast, and good golf too.

Bastard!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:erm, so I'm going to try to fight the women's corner a little here.

Believe me, this is something that does happen, to pretty much all women (well those under the age of 50 at least). Whenever my wife goes out for a walk, she'll get all sorts of looks, comments, etc. She doesn't speak French all that well yet so probably doesn't understand the lewder comments.

MFC. Obviously this experience is distressing for you and your wife. Sadly this is fairly typical in France, however it is not representative of western society. When my girlfriend lived in the south of France she was regularly approached, followed around, harrassed and felt genuinely intimidated by some of the more sinister persistent and lewd men, especially as she was only 21 at the time. Similarly when I lived in Paris I frequently witnessed women being groped on the Metro, especially during peak hours. The common factor in these events was that the men were pretty much always North African eg Morrocan, Algerian etc (does that make me racist?), and it was clearly a cultural phenomenon that I don't think you can apply in northen European countries like the UK, Scandinavia etc. I can't comment on the context of the video, but was she walking around a "typical" part of New York? Is that a normal experience in the US or was it targetted at a partciular neighbourhood?

I have experienced something very similar. Travelling around India, I was constantly approached by people saying hello or making inane comments, simply because I was a novelty. There wasn't a sexual undertone, but you quickly realise that some people stop and stare and say hello because they are friendly or curious, and some people follow you around and "target" you because they've got nothing better to do and they are idiots. I can also remember walking around Thailand and being sexually assaulted by women every night who were trying to literally drag me into clubs... but that's a different story!

You sure they weren't ladyboys Ray?

Followed 20 minutes later by men dragging you back out again!