World Tour Finals Thread - Match & Prediction Thread

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

So the ATPs premier showpiece event hits the O2 on Sunday. The sixth showing at the O2 and yielded only 3 different winners. Very interesting this year. 3 virgin qualifiers in Cillic, Raonic and Nishikori. Can we see a new winner? Can Nishikori and Raonic win the biggest title of their careers to date? Federer will have an eye on the DC like his compatriot Wawrinka, though he is woefully out of form of late. Has Murray much left in the tank to win his first title here at the O2? Can Berdych do a Davydenko and strike out of nowhere? Will it be a routine Djokovic victory?

For me the 2 that qualify from each group will be:

Group A

1) Djokovic
2) Raonic

Group B

1) Murray
2) Federer

Djokovic/Murray final

Winner: Djokovic

[Danny_1982]

Anabelle saying she is not so sure is Andys coach the right one for him.


And persuade Ivan to come back, Greg agrees.

Thought it was a bad match up from day 1. Andy reacts well to the Lendl type, "do it this way because I'm the boss and I know best". A mate or another mother isn't going to get it done.

Lendl, Agassi, Courier... Any multi slam champion who was mentally strong and played on the front foot. That's what he needs. He also needs to look in the mirror, because he chose this more passive style and this more sensitive coach. Does he want to enjoy being 2 metres behind the baseline and playing nice slices, or does he want a couple more slams?

[temporary21]

38% first serves won't be close to enough against Novak frankly. Murray needs time off forget the India thing. Fire mauresmo. Go see to the back because frankly it doesn't look like the surgerys done anything but make it worse

[Henman Bill]

This year does make Lendl look good though. This is a good result for Lendl.

[temporary21]

Its a bad end to the year. People like Andy arent people to just sit down and weep about it. If he is able to still play to his ability, youll bet he will do everything he can to get back to scratch. he could do with someone more fiery he can feed off, Mauresmo might not be it.

[Danny_1982]

I watched an interview with Lendl the other day from when he was Andy's coach. He said something along the lines of:

"it wasn't much that needed to change. He had to stop losing with his backside against the back wall. He had to get onto the baseline, hit with more depth, try to win the point on the second shot after serve. If you lose, you lose on your terms. And of course, be less negative or harsh on himself. The last one is the only one he hasn't changed completely. But it will probably never change completely."

I paraphrase, but it was there or thereabouts. Nearly 3 years later, he's back to where he was before Lendl. In fact, he's worse off.

[CaledonianCraig]

I really don't think this has anything to do with Mauresmo. This is mental and confidence-based for me. Heck even when he never had a coach he never had a spell as bad as this.

[Calder106]

Didn't see the match luckily so can't comment on it. It's clear though that the Mauresmo experiment has not worked. I didn't write it off at the start but after around 5 months I can't see anything positive that has come of it. Andy seems as lost now as he was before she came on the scene. He has to move on but how and with who is the question.

[Haddie-nuff]

I really don't think this has anything to do with Mauresmo. This is mental and confidence-based for me. Heck even when he never had a coach he never had a spell as bad as this.

Basically what I was saying; maybe he needs to go back to that to find his own game again. CC he has had a succession of coaches all different in their own approach to the game.. I dont think Andy knows his own game anymore or what has contributed the change.  It seems to me that he hesitates mentally at every shot not seeming to know what to do with it. Not playing on his own instinct but what he has been coached to do. He seems to shout at his team more and more as though they are to blame for what he is doing.. maybe they are or at least have contributed to it

[Danny_1982]

Shouldn't a coach have s lot of input into confidence and mental approach though? Ivan did.

I agree it's not just her, but does anyone see Andy back playing slam challenging tennis under her? I don't. I didn't from day 1.

[Jahu]

Bad coach is worst then no coach, confuses you, CC.

[laverfan]

I have to say Andy this is plain sh!t. Pure and utter sh!t.

I think he needs another back op. Maybe this time he will gain a backbone!

I quite agree, LKv2. Comparing Robredo at Shenzen and Valencia is not in the same league.

[laverfan]

This is awkward viewing. It's like watching Federer play some 500 ranked young player that's been given a wildcard. Federer has not even bothered to switch into top gear.

Pouille @Paris 2014 was better than this.

[CaledonianCraig]

Fair point Haddie Nuff. Something, somewhere, somehow has to change. Perhaps being his own man again may help.

PS Can I adopt your name as that is how I feel at the moment.

[Haddie-nuff]

Fair point Haddie Nuff. Something, somewhere, somehow has to change. Perhaps being his own man again may help.

PS Can I adopt your name as that is how I feel at the moment.

Be my guest CC Im sure over the Christmas Andy will recharge his batteries, and maybe he should listen to his Mum again Mums do seem to know best... she might not be much use at coaching him...but mentally Im sure she could help straighten him out. He does need to find Andy Murray and not the manufactured Andy which I think he is at the moment. Self doubt is creeping in, lack of confidence, lack of focus. He has temporarily lost his way CC.. he WILL be back

[Silver]

Poor Andy. Love seeing Federer play like that, but can't take any pleasure in seeing someone so thoroughly crushed. I can only hope that it forces him to at least look at his second serve, it got taken apart tonight by someone who isn't even amazing on the return.

Sorry Craig, Danny and all Murray fans - here's hoping for some good off-season decisions and a positive start to next year. #6 isn't bad after the surgery, I hope Andy will be fighting for the late tournament stages (at least) next year

As for Federer, if he ups his first serve to 60% and plays like that again, I reckon he'll probably beat Novak.

[laverfan]

he WILL be back

The question is where will he be standing.

[Danny_1982]

Silver -

[hawkeye]

Well if Federer serves at 38% against Djokovic he will be toast.

[It Must Be Love]

For the Murray fans who are feeling down; I know how this feels.
Quite a few WTFs Nadal has played really badly on been on the end of some one sided scorelines. The test for Murray is how he can come back from this, he has a rest now and can come back re-energised after the break.
A lot of this is in his mind, he has the game to do it, he has the physical strength- his motivation is key.

[bogbrush]

I have always questioned the impact on Murrays approach of being coached by his mother and suggested he behaves a bit spoilt - even the injury feigning comes across that way.

Is it any coincidence that his best success came when he had a coach who was bigger and badder than him? Can't say I ever saw him bad mouthing Lendl, like he did Petchey, Gilbert, McClaghan and now Mauresmo.

He probably needs an authority figure.

[CAS]

its an incredible effort that a 29 year old Federer was 8-5 down to a 23 year old Murray, 4 years on its 12-11 to a 33 year old Federer to a 27 year old Murray.

I remember worrying the head 2 head could get very ugly

[temporary21]

Fed can play that we'll if his opponent at that poor. Still gorgeous if course but Novak won't give him that freedom so here's to the best final ever to make up for the poor rr

[banbrotam]

I have always questioned the impact on Murrays approach of being coached by his mother and suggested he behaves a bit spoilt - even the injury feigning comes across that way.

Is it any coincidence that his best success came when he had a coach who was bigger and badder than him? Can't say I ever saw him bad mouthing Lendl, like he did Petchey, Gilbert, McClaghan and now Mauresmo.

He probably needs an authority figure.

I simply question what the back injury and an almost pointless manic Autumn has done to his long term chances of winning another slam

I really don't think it's a simple as get Lendl or the equivalent back

I mentioned a couple of months ago, that I was pleased when he appeared to not be bothering chasing for O2 qualification

Granted, during his Autumn run, he's confirmed that he's one of the best of the rest, but he's psychologically put himself back in the same 'inferiority complex' position with the Top 3 as he was back in early 2008

It's feasible, as my favourite footie manger Mourinho alludes to, that this defeat might actually shape a change - he's contrary and bloody minded enough to make some kind of daft comeback at say Australian Open

The juries out for me. Let's see where he after 6 months of his normal schedule, in say July 2015

[Silver]

That's a good call banbro. Still plenty of time to right the listing ship yet. Post-Wimbledon 2015 seems fair.

In the last two seasons we've seen two top players have roaring comeback years after being virtually written off, no reason why Andy can't do the same with a fresh slate in Australia, with no back OP to worry about. I hope he has a good off season and makes the right choices.

[FedsFan]

The way the match started I would never have guessed it would have turned out the way it did. I mean, I expected it to be a tough match as I thought Murray was playing himself into the tournament. Something changed in at 0-30 in the first game and after that marathon rally I think Federer knew he had to come up with something else than a baseline slogfest.

Also, lets not forget Federer did not have to do much to make Murray look average. After a while at maybe 3-0 up he relaxed as there was no pressure he he just went for it. As Murray said, Fed was trying stuff he would not normally do. He had qualified and all that pressure was transferred onto Murray.

However, I still believe Federer's serve isn't as reliable as he would like it to be. Aces and unreturnable serves have won him big matches in the past and that bagel he served Novak in 2012 is proof. I am just wondering whether all the hype and build up in the media worked differently for each player. Sky Sports did advertise it as 'TWO LEGENDS FACE OFF'. Much as it makes a good headline...really?

Anyway Raonic was instrumental in Murray's exit but when you got to rely on someone else to win/lose it is usually when its a frantic scrap which really it should not have come down to.
Come Saturday Fed could easily come off second best against Wawrinka assuming some wacky results don't come through tomorrow and Stan does qualify second.

Novak is still the man to beat. He's got his foot on the gas and unless the old Novak turns up, 3 time title winner come Sunday whoever he plays in the final.

[laverfan]

Well if Federer serves at 38% against Djokovic he will be toast.

[Gerry SA]

Andy Murray is Lleyton Hewitt mark 2. Got a couple of majors when the big guns where struggling. Now exposed again and will never win another 1000 let alone another major.

[laverfan]

Andy Murray is Lleyton Hewitt mark 2. Got a couple of majors when the big guns where struggling. Now exposed again and will never win another 1000 let alone another major.

That is a very bold prediction. . His slam wins are pretty laudable, IMHO. Djokovic was not struggling at USO, was he?

[Josiah Maiestas]

Andy Murray is Lleyton Hewitt mark 2. Got a couple of majors when the big guns where struggling. Now exposed again and will never win another 1000 let alone another major.

Seeing the way Fed demolished Murray was like how he demolished Hewitt in that USO final with 2 bagels.. It will be intriguing.

[temporary21]

I'd say that's fairly disrespectful to Murray And Hewitt. He's given everything to the game including his health. The idea muzz and Hewitt are no good because they're not federer is over expectation. Muzz got both his slams turning over a 7 time champ

[Haddie-nuff]

Leyton Hewitt is one of the gutsiest players I can think of.
Having been the world number 1 at the age of twenty yrs old.
He may have only won two grand slams but is it surprising.
He has had a foot operation, both hips replaced and surgery on his knee.
Yet he fought his way back into contention and still played like the trouper he is causing many top players a whole heap of trouble.
He deserves a great deal more respect than he gets.

[summerblues]

Oh my, what an amazing result.

A little bummed that Fed could not bring it home on Andy's serve from 0-30, but all in all a very satisfying result.

I remember many moons ago Fed double bageled someone at the WTF and, if I remember correctly, they were saying it was the only double bagel ever at the season-ending championship (i.e., WTF and its predecessors).  It would have been nice if Fed could have done it again...

[summerblues]

Berdych vs Nole:
1-1 on grass
1-1 on clay
0-14 on hard

Obviously, fully expecting it will be 1-14 after tomorrow.

[Guest]

Andy Murray is Lleyton Hewitt mark 2. Got a couple of majors when the big guns where struggling. Now exposed again and will never win another 1000 let alone another major.

So do enlighten me as to which big guns struggled in Hewitt's Slam victories?

[Guest]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/30047917

Murray's take on things. I will take his words seriously if he pulls out of India. It's a long work in progress and if he thinks it's something that can be fixed in weeks then he is kidding himself.

[Jahu]

Just got an email, Tickets available for Djoko-Berdy match guys.

Nobody cares for WTF any more?

[Jahu]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/30047917

Murray's take on things. I will take his words seriously if he pulls out of India. It's a long work in progress and if he thinks it's something that can be fixed in weeks then he is kidding himself.

He will play India, why not? Good money, he don't seem to be injured and will say this is a good preparation for AO.

[sirfredperry]

I was at the 02 when Fed won nine games in a row, including a bagel set against some guy called......Nadal. Didn't Fed go a whole hour without winning a single game in the Olympic final against Murray at Wimbledon?
OK, an awful result for Andy last night. But these things happen. Yes, he's still some way off his best. But I would argue that given the back operation he's actually had a reasonable season.
Lots of things can happen quite quickly in tennis. Stan the Man could be out of the top 10 come early February. Fed, I think, won't do as well in 2015 as in this year. Don't see Cilic in the top 10 this time next year.
But I do see Andy having a good year.

[Calder106]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/30047917

Murray's take on things. I will take his words seriously if he pulls out of India. It's a long work in progress and if he thinks it's something that can be fixed in weeks then he is kidding himself.

He will play India, why not? Good money, he don't seem to be injured and will say this is a good preparation for AO.

As you say he is not injured. So then he is contracted to play in the IPTl. I would rather he had not signed up to it. Looking desparately for plusses from the situation as it is only really exhibition tennis it might give him a chance to relax on court and try some different things to see if they may work for him on the tour.

Realistically though I would rather he took a good holiday away from tennis. Got himself refreshed mentally and physically and came back with a much clearer vision of what needs to be done if he is to have any chance of competing at the top again,

[MrInvisible]

Well watching last night's match reminded me of Germany v Brazil semi-final in world cup in terms of humiliation in front of a home crowd. Murray has had a fantastic career - 2 slam titles, including the all elusive (for a Brit) Wimbledon title and Olympic gold, but I sense that unfortunately he may be heading for an irreversible decline.

I think blaming or at least part-blaming Mauresmo is a bit of a red herring. Sure, splitting from Lendl certainly hasn't helped, but maybe Lendl could see the writing on the wall after the back surgery. Since the surgery Murray has not been the same player - whilst he may not look to be struggling physically, I think psychologically he doesn't have the same confidence in his ability to grind out a tough match as a result of having less confidence in what he can do physically.

I don't think he'll get near winning another slam again - his level has fallen off that of Djokovic, Nadal and Federer, and he isn't as hungry/determined as the likes of Wawrinka, Nishikori and Dimitrov. If he gets himself sorted out we should see him next year hovering around fringes of top 10 where he is at moment. However, if we get a bad early loss at Aus Open, followed by a poor hardcourt Spring we could see him freefall down the rankings, only picking up minor tournament titles from then on and the odd good run in a slam like Hewitt has done in latter part of career.

[Calder106]

I don't think it's Mauresmo 's fault. However I can't see that she has added anything either. His best spell since she came in, albeit in smaller tournaments, came when she was mainly not there.

[Born Slippy]

There have been signs of a more aggressive approach which, given that he doesn't seem to have his old fitness and consistency, has to be the way to go. I'm sure he can hover around the 5-10 mark next year by maintaining the same level. However, this is a guy who before the surgery had reached 4 straight slam finals and was competing on an equal footing with all time greats. If he can't improve next year, I can't see him wanting to be an also-ran. I suspect it would then be his last year on tour.

[greengoblin]

Murray needs to grow up and stop moping and moaning. At his age he shouldn't need a coach, he should be experienced enough to work things out on his own. He needs to get back to playing variety tennis like he did 2009-2011. At least that would endear him to the crowd. At the end of the day, he's never been a top player and got lucky in his two slam wins. One due to the wind, and the other meeting a Djokovic who was as flat as a pancake.

[Calder106]

Why do most of the players have coaches then and some more that one ?

[greengoblin]

Why do most of the players have coaches then and some more that one ?

A comfort blanket- people telling them what they want to hear

[Guest]

There have been signs of a more aggressive approach which, given that he doesn't seem to have his old fitness and consistency, has to be the way to go. I'm sure he can hover around the 5-10 mark next year by maintaining the same level. However, this is a guy who before the surgery had reached 4 straight slam finals and was competing on an equal footing with all time greats. If he can't improve next year, I can't see him wanting to be an also-ran. I suspect it would then be his last year on tour.

That would be a real cowards way to go. A legacy tarnishing way.

[laverfan]

"It wasn't what I was looking for when I went on the court," said Murray. "Everything he tried tonight came off. He has the ability to do that."

http://www.barclaysatpworldtourfinals.com/en/news-and-media/tennis/finals-2014-thursday-federer-murray

You let him do that, Murray.

WTF was your ability to do what you do?

[Calder106]

There have been signs of a more aggressive approach which, given that he doesn't seem to have his old fitness and consistency, has to be the way to go. I'm sure he can hover around the 5-10 mark next year by maintaining the same level. However, this is a guy who before the surgery had reached 4 straight slam finals and was competing on an equal footing with all time greats. If he can't improve next year, I can't see him wanting to be an also-ran. I suspect it would then be his last year on tour.

Agree with this. Looking at the tournaments that Murray has played since Wimbledon the only loss he has had to a player who was ranked below him on the day they played was to Tsonga in Canada and Tsonga went on to win there. Conversely he has only beaten Ferrer (twice) and Cilic when they ranked higher than him at time of playing. During this period even though he has won a number of matches he has put in only a few really good performances quite a lot of the other victories have been scrappy and a matter of digging in. So even after what has not been a good year for him it looks like he will finish ranked 6th unless Berdych beats Djokovic today. Therefore unless he falls away further I don't see him dropping too far down the rankings. Again conversely he will have to improve a lot to move back up again.

[sirfredperry]

Coaching Murray is easy. You need to tell him just three things:
1. Serve better
2. Play more aggressively
3. er...that's it

[Josiah Maiestas]

Nobody breaks serve as easily as Djokovic. Poor Tomas will be lucky to last an hour

[Sponsored content]