Not rolling away after the tackle...

There was a number of penalties awarded over the weekend against players who did not roll away after the tackle. In a good number of these situations it was very clear that the team awarded the penalty were preventing said player from being able to role away.

It was duly noted by the commentators that this seems to be a prevalent way to gain an easy three points should the situation arise in the right area.

I agree it is a cheeky way to get a penalty, but its not incorrect and all teams do it.
I don't know what the ref can do in that situation if they see that the player cannot roll away but is preventing the ball from being played. The defending team just needs to do a better job of either rolling away more quickly or supporting players clearing out more effectively.

Its a difficult situation.

If a player is locked in then their is little they can do. Refs give warnings but you're right in saying that some of the time referees are harsh with it.

I would say though that often you see players purposely doing it to slow ball down. In the old days rucking negated any desire to stay the wrong side for too long but that's now not deemed legal.

One thing I would add though.....

the offside rule sometimes is crazy. You see a player thinking the ball is in play and starts his run up. The referee orders him back which he does, play continues yet they give a penalty... for what? Its ridiculous.

And also ball placement.

When a player is tackled I thought they are allowed to place the ball on the ground if they are tackled.

In the Ireland SA game I believe there was a point when SA took the ball in, was tackled but then wasn't allowed to place the ball, the tackler got up and tried to grab the ball from his hands, the bok resisted and gave away a penalty for holding on.

Not sure I know the strict law on this but I thought the tackler had to first allow the player to place the ball down. This wasn't the case as he tried to strip it from him immediately. If its legal its for me... not a positive rule. Why because it gives defences the advantage.

If say player red 1 takes the ball in and was tackled by player blue 1. Player red 1 has to release the ball and place yet player blue 1 can literally grab it. To secure possession you require min. second red player to come in to secure and compete.

What it means is that the defence only needs 1 player to tackle and secure possession yet the attack needs 2.

It was noted by the commentators on the weekend that when a player is trying to role away, players notice then commit to the ruck to prevent the player from rolling away.

fa0019 wrote:Its a difficult situation.

If a player is locked in then their is little they can do. Refs give warnings but you're right in saying that some of the time referees are harsh with it.

I would say though that often you see players purposely doing it to slow ball down. In the old days rucking negated any desire to stay the wrong side for too long but that's now not deemed legal.

One thing I would add though.....

the offside rule sometimes is crazy. You see a player thinking the ball is in play and starts his run up. The referee orders him back which he does, play continues yet they give a penalty... for what? Its ridiculous.

And also ball placement.

When a player is tackled I thought they are allowed to place the ball on the ground if they are tackled.

In the Ireland SA game I believe there was a point when SA took the ball in, was tackled but then wasn't allowed to place the ball, the tackler got up and tried to grab the ball from his hands, the bok resisted and gave away a penalty for holding on.

Not sure I know the strict law on this but I thought the tackler had to first allow the player to place the ball down. This wasn't the case as he tried to strip it from him immediately. If its legal its for me... not a positive rule. Why because it gives defences the advantage.

If say player red 1 takes the ball in and was tackled by player blue 1. Player red 1 has to release the ball and place yet player blue 1 can literally grab it. To secure possession you require min. second red player to come in to secure and compete.

What it means is that the defence only needs 1 player to tackle and secure possession yet the attack needs 2.

1. The law states that the tackler must release the tackled player immediately. The tackler must fully disengage and get to his feet before he can attempt to compete for the ball. There is no mention of allowing the tackled player place the ball.

2. In your example. If Red one is tackled he should have ample time to place the ball in the time it takes blue one to get back on his feet and go back in to compete. It really depends on Red having sufficient support to form a strong ruck and win their own ball back. The tackler only really has an advantage when the attacker becomes isolated.

You've also got players milking it. Anyone notice Smith 'fall' over Dave Wilson, Wilson should have moved away quicker but for me it was a bought pen. Lesson is don't be there.

Understandably for the ref it is very hard to judge whether a player is slowing ball or is being prevented from rolling away.

But if a player is trying to roll away and a couple of the opposite team join the ruck late to prevent that player abiding by the rules, what governs that situation...????

My biggest issue with defensive teams at the breakdown is when they counter ruck and seal off the ball.

maestegmafia wrote:Understandably for the ref it is very hard to judge whether a player is slowing ball or is being prevented from rolling away.

But if a player is trying to roll away and a couple of the opposite team join the ruck late to prevent that player abiding by the rules, what governs that situation...????

It can be almost impossible at times. Especially with the speed with which everything seems to happen on a pitch now. For the most part I think the refs get it right and I can forgive them the odd mistake.
I think in general if the player looks to be making every effort to move away he will be given the benefit of the doubt. Similarly if more than 60% of his body is covered by other bodies he gets a pass.

Biltong wrote:My biggest issue with defensive teams at the breakdown is when they counter ruck and seal off the ball.

Another issue worthy of debate for sure.

Been said before many times... Lift the "nanny state" rules and get back to old fashion rucking.. A few studs drawn along your back from an 18+ stone forward, soon changes your perspective on lying on the wrong side...

Dont get me wrong, I dont want to see licence for thugish behaviour, stamping, etc... But a properly done ruck did me no wrong or most of the players of my generation... Saying that, as a lippy scrum-half, I did try, under all possible circumstances, not to get pulled down into the ruck, as a few of my own forwards (once or twice), enjoyed shutting me up

tbh theres a few players out there who are guilty of rolling away before the tackle

No9 wrote:Been said before many times... Lift the "nanny state" rules and get back to old fashion rucking..  A few studs drawn along your back from an 18+ stone forward, soon changes your perspective on lying on the wrong side...

You can, and players do. It happened at the weekend. You're simply not allowed to just stamp on them or do it on the head or joints. Or go crazy with it, which has been penalised.

You aren't penalised for not rolling away. You're penalised for being offside and off your feet. If you don't want to get trapped don't fall that way. There are a hell of a lot more occations when players fall the wrong side 'by accidental', stay there a little time before rolling away, than there are of players being held in and penalised (when they didn't deliberately fall the wrong side).

I have two bugbears at the minute. One is the differences between 'releasing' after a tackle. Sometimes they don't really have to full release the player. Sometimes they release but put hands on in the process of getting to their feet. Sometimes a player goes for the ball before the tackle has been completed and therefore should be considered an assist in the tackle.

The other is that players are allowed to go for the ball after an attacker is already on their feet at the ruck. Defenders should only be allowed to hand the ball if they're there before the attacker (by 'there' I mean over the ball). The 'first man' is the first man to the tackled player, not first defender. It happened a few times on the weekend, Nigel Owens is terrible for it "hands out! hands out! ruck called!....he was on his feet, fair steal"

One thing I find amusing with this is the amount of times some players ( yes you Mr McCaw) find themselves trapped on the wrong side of the ruck. Its almost as if they do it deliberately

maes it's Joubert's interpretation of rolling away that was the problem. Most ref's who want to see a good game of rugby aren't so unbelievably pedantic. That said, others don't seem to have an idea of what's going on in the scrums, I feel Joubert has been good in this area for a while.

Joubert has improved his general empathy with the game from his 18 penalty world record when he took charge of us against Scotland in the 2013 Six Nations match.

He is a particularly literal interpreter, letter of the law type of bloke. On Saturday there were a few situations where players were smart enough to exploit his nature.

I think it boils down to there being too much for the referees to say around the breakdown.

Tackler Release
Tackler assist release 
By this point more players have joined the ruck
Tackler Roll away 
Whistle go's penalty to the attacking side.

It's a bit of a eye sore when a 9 runs up to a ruck and preaches to the high heavens that he can't get the ball out whilst making no effort too.

Surely the ref could use a phase like Defence leave to get the tackler out of there and the assist to release the ball.

TBH while I get where the OP is coming from (sometimes the tackler is trapped with nowhere to go), I generally have little sympathy with the tacklers in this case, since in most cases the tackler more or less chooses to fall on the wrong side, as the few moments the ref will allow him to roll away can be of great help in slowing the ball down. Basically, you play on edge, sometimes you get caught (litterallly).

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:My biggest issue with defensive teams at the breakdown is when they counter ruck and seal off the ball.

Another issue worthy of debate for sure.

Bigger problem now is the tackler just standing up in the ruck after the tackle is complete and getting in the attackers way, Mccaw has become a pro at this.

I don't know the rules but doesn't the player need to retreat to an onside position before they can play the ball?

yappysnap wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:My biggest issue with defensive teams at the breakdown is when they counter ruck and seal off the ball.

Another issue worthy of debate for sure.

Bigger problem now is the tackler just standing up in the ruck after the tackle is complete and getting in the attackers way, Mccaw has become a pro at this.

I don't know the rules but doesn't the player need to retreat to an onside position before they can play the ball?

No. Tackler does not need to retreat.