England vs South Africa November 15th 2014

First topic message reminder :

Courtney Lawes is a doubt, since he is going through concussion protocols. That would see Kruis start and Kitchener on the bench, unless Lancaster wants to do something funky with Clark. Luther Burrell not in contention, and Stephen Myler still out with a hamstring problem. Haskell is there.

England team to face South Africa:

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton)
David Wilson (Bath)
Dave Attwood (Bath)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Tom Wood (Northampton)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements

Rob Webber (Bath), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), George Kruis (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), George Ford (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

South Africa

15 Willie le Roux,
14 JP Pietersen,
13 Jan Serfontein,

12 Jean de Villiers,
11 Bryan Habana,
10 Pat Lambie,
9 Cobus Reinach,
8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements:

16 Bismarck du Plessis,
17 Trevor Nyakane,
18 Coenie Oosthuizen,
19 Bakkies Botha,
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje,
21 Francois Hougaard,
22 Handré Pollard,
23 Cornal Hendricks

England have gone without a win in their last eleven Tests against the Springboks. Their best recent result was a draw in Port Elizabeth in June 2012. The match on Saturday will be almost eight years exactly since England's last victory. England have lost their last four Twickenham encounters.

This is the third time Lancaster has taken England through a round of Autumn Internationals. In 2012, his team beat New Zealand. In 2013, it was Australia. He has never beaten South Africa; his record reads one home loss, two away losses and one away draw.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Thats a little intense Billtong no? It is only a game afterall.

Yes, it is only a game, the modern day dads, like myself don't push our kids into rugby, I never forced hm to play, yet he wanted to start playing rugby because as he said it "I don't want to break your heart"

WHen I grew up rugby was a right of passage in a sense.

Jesus if my son said that to me it would break my heart. Im soft though when it comes to my son.

So far he likes football. Ill try and wean him off that soon.

Biltong, v touching, and maybe you or your culture subtly pressured your young boy somewhat, and he plainly loves his dad. But your boy should want to play for his own good reasons and enjoyment, from that comes real motivation from within.

GunsGerms wrote: Some funny old Munster lady gave him a Munster flag. He loved it and waved it furiously for most of the game.

Ha! Ha! Plan worked. It took months for ME to set that up with his Mother. I'll bet he has it on video to use when most appropriate. You were nabbed there, guns.

gregortree wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Thats a little intense Billtong no? It is only a game afterall.

Yes, it is only a game, the modern day dads, like myself don't push our kids into rugby, I never forced hm to play, yet he wanted to start playing rugby because as he said it "I don't want to break your heart"

WHen I grew up rugby was a right of passage in a sense.

Jesus if my son said that to me it would break my heart. Im soft though when it comes to my son.

So far he likes football. Ill try and wean him off that soon.

Biltong, v touching, and maybe you or your culture subtly pressured your young boy somewhat, and he plainly loves his dad. But your boy should want to play for his own good reasons and enjoyment, from that comes real motivation from within.

I agree with you, hence I don't push him, he is still young so trying everything, he now wants to swim and do Judo, so that is our next move, I think for now I will just allow him to test the waters and find out what he really loves.

Oh, and he asked me to teach him how to play chess.

GunsGerms wrote:Thats a little intense Billtong no? It is only a game afterall.

Try telling that to dads who dont think broken hands are a reason to not be at practise , learning from the sideline

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:  Some funny old Munster lady gave him a Munster flag. He loved it and waved it furiously for most of the game.

Ha! Ha!  Plan worked.  It took months for ME to set that up with his Mother.  I'll bet he has it on video to use when most appropriate.  You were nabbed there, guns.

That woman was in her 60s so it it was more likely MEs daughter or niece. Anyway it didnt bother me at all.

Biltong wrote:

gregortree wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Thats a little intense Billtong no? It is only a game afterall.

Yes, it is only a game, the modern day dads, like myself don't push our kids into rugby, I never forced hm to play, yet he wanted to start playing rugby because as he said it "I don't want to break your heart"

WHen I grew up rugby was a right of passage in a sense.

Jesus if my son said that to me it would break my heart. Im soft though when it comes to my son.

So far he likes football. Ill try and wean him off that soon.

Biltong, v touching, and maybe you or your culture subtly pressured your young boy somewhat, and he plainly loves his dad. But your boy should want to play for his own good reasons and enjoyment, from that comes real motivation from within.

I agree with you, hence I don't push him, he is still young so trying everything, he now wants to swim and do Judo, so that is our next move, I think for now I will just allow him to test the waters and find out what he really loves.

Oh, and he asked me to teach him how to play chess.

My son is a little older (btw, he has a Bokke mate at uni in Sussex) and is driving home tonight so we can watch the game together at our local rugby pub tomorrow.
May both our families enjoy the moment.

gregortree wrote:

Biltong wrote:

gregortree wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Thats a little intense Billtong no? It is only a game afterall.

Yes, it is only a game, the modern day dads, like myself don't push our kids into rugby, I never forced hm to play, yet he wanted to start playing rugby because as he said it "I don't want to break your heart"

WHen I grew up rugby was a right of passage in a sense.

Jesus if my son said that to me it would break my heart. Im soft though when it comes to my son.

So far he likes football. Ill try and wean him off that soon.

Biltong, v touching, and maybe you or your culture subtly pressured your young boy somewhat, and he plainly loves his dad. But your boy should want to play for his own good reasons and enjoyment, from that comes real motivation from within.

I agree with you, hence I don't push him, he is still young so trying everything, he now wants to swim and do Judo, so that is our next move, I think for now I will just allow him to test the waters and find out what he really loves.

Oh, and he asked me to teach him how to play chess.

My son is a little older (btw, he has a Bokke mate at uni in Sussex) and is driving home tonight so we can watch the game together at our local rugby pub tomorrow.
May both our families enjoy the moment.

Cheers mate.

For me, in one sense, Rugby means even more than that: It's the one area where things go well for South Africa (generally speaking). We generally don't excel at anything else, and if it weren't for rugby (and cricket) our newspapers would pretty much be full of bad news only!

...So thanks Ireland for ruining my week.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:For me, in one sense, Rugby means even more than that: It's the one area where things go well for South Africa (generally speaking). We generally don't excel at anything else, and if it weren't for rugby (and cricket) our newspapers would pretty much be full of bad news only!

...So thanks Ireland for ruining my week.

Join the fackin' queue, ya moanin' git!

Have you been to Ireland in the last few years?  We owe billions, we're taxed on over-breathing and using too much sun in the summer.  Do you ever see us much in any other sport?  Only tonight we were embarrassed off the football field by............... Scotland!!!!, who played like Brazil as we played like a herd of cattle, crappin' and chewing grass!

Rugby provides our only outlet for good news too so sorry... but we had to ambush you to try to quell the decent into total gloooooooommmmmm.

SecretFly wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:For me, in one sense, Rugby means even more than that: It's the one area where things go well for South Africa (generally speaking). We generally don't excel at anything else, and if it weren't for rugby (and cricket) our newspapers would pretty much be full of bad news only!

...So thanks Ireland for ruining my week.

Join the fackin' queue, ya moanin' git!

Have you been to Ireland in the last few years?  We owe billions, we're taxed on over-breathing and using too much sun in the summer.  Do you ever see us much in any other sport?  Only tonight we were embarrassed off the football field by............... Scotland!!!!, who played like Brazil as we played like a herd of cattle, crappin' and chewing grass!

Rugby provides our only outlet for good news too so sorry... but we had to ambush you to try to quell the decent into total gloooooooommmmmm.

Well to be fair sunlight is a prized commodity over there.

SecretFly wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:For me, in one sense, Rugby means even more than that: It's the one area where things go well for South Africa (generally speaking). We generally don't excel at anything else, and if it weren't for rugby (and cricket) our newspapers would pretty much be full of bad news only!

...So thanks Ireland for ruining my week.

Join the fackin' queue, ya moanin' git!

Have you been to Ireland in the last few years?  We owe billions, we're taxed on over-breathing and using too much sun in the summer.  Do you ever see us much in any other sport?  Only tonight we were embarrassed off the football field by............... Scotland!!!!, who played like Brazil as we played like a herd of cattle, crappin' and chewing grass!

Rugby provides our only outlet for good news too so sorry... but we had to ambush you to try to quell the decent into total gloooooooommmmmm.

I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side...and in this case literally: I think your grass is actually greener!

Too green! I know. I have to go out in it every day. And it's so green it's muck now! Don't knock dryness until you expereince 10 months of muck.

I just have this feeling that there will be a number of injuries today. It's going to be a hard, hard game for both sides. And Steve Walsh will be in every shot.

Steve! Oh My! He's in a big movie again. His agent will be getting a bonus.

This is a must win. We cannot kept losing (immaterial of the opposition)

mystir, I'd say both games (SA and AUS) are must win games now.  Especially given the close score with the ABs.  England has to prove that home advantage gives them the edge over the next two sides down from the undisputed best side in the World.
Tight wins would be okay but yeah, I think wins are needed to take the growing pressure off Lancaster.

One game at a time SF.

BTW. Your football team wasn't outclassed yesterday. It was a tight scrappy game. You are very similar in abilities. So stop whinging.....

We were marmalised, mytir. Not on the scoreboard but in playing ability. I'd go into a few things in depth that I see as repeating failures in technique but this...is a rugby section

No. I don't agree.

Anyway back to it.

This isn't a game we should be calling a must win. But all these close losses are going to get to us mentally.

Time to step up.

Well I believe England can put the boot into SA (again! - and sorry SA it's nothing personal just me seeing how things might go)  But England will want to save their best for the second half.  I think that idea of 'saving' a little energy in the tank is kinda against Lancaster's philosophy somewhat - and maybe that's a weakness in the system?
Periods of 'walkin' or boring rugby do have their plusses if used strategically.

I'll be disappointed if we don't win today and that is not meant as any sort of disrespect to SA who, regardless of last week's result, are a dangerous team who are obviously capable of beating anyone. I think there will be more pressure on England this week though and it will be interesting to see how they react to that. For me, last week against NZ England were not expected to win by anyone and so they had the luxury of playing with reduced levels of expectation however this week there are more people expecting a positive result for England. I have no idea how the Boks will react to their loss last weekend but I guess they'll come out pumped up looking to set the record straight. It's going to be a tough afternoon for England that's for sure and I hope they've got enough control of the game to manufacture (at least) a narrow win.

This game will injure a lot of players.(both sides)

That is my only prediction.

Ireland beating SA last week have done us no favors at all.

mystiroakey wrote:This game will injure a lot of players.(both sides)

That is my only prediction.

Ireland beating SA last week have done us no favors at all.

Unfortunately I agree on both counts..

In a way I think we should blame the organisers. 3 games in nz .followed by a game v nz and then sa after they have both been together for months getting used to each other. There was allways a chance of 5 losses on the bounce. Under SL we normally get bettet the longer we are together. Our schedule of games is backwards.

Yes, it couldn't be a much tougher schedule could it? Let's hope that this challenging run into the World Cup makes the England Squad battle hardened and better prepared when the time comes. After all just getting out of our group is going to take a mighty effort.

Preview from The Independent:

9861433.html]http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/england-vs-south-africa-autumn-international-match-preview-9861433.html[/url]


Both teams head into the showdown at Twickenham off the back of disappointing defeats last weekend, and it’s almost a case of make-or-break for England and South Africa in terms of their autumn international program.

England were in the lead at half-time against New Zealand at HQ, but they were simply unable to cope with the pace and power of the All Blacks when they hit the throttle, and the final 21-24 result flattered the hosts given they were a clear second best after the break.
Stuart Lancaster has decided against wholesale changes for their second of four matches, with Semesa Rokoduguni ruled out through a hip injury after making his debut for England last weekend. In his place comes his Bath team-mate Anthony Watson, who will be making his first start in the red rose having come off the bench for his debut against the Kiwis as well.

It means that Danny Care and Owen Farrell are given another run-out together at half-back, despite Lancaster openly criticising their failure to kick England to safety when penned back in their own territory. George Ford has been pushing for claims to start against the Springboks, but Kyle Eastmond’s recovery from illness means Farrell will remain at fly-half and not switch to inside centre to accommodate Ford.

The Springboks arrive in London having experienced a shock-yet-convincing defeat to Ireland at the Aviva Stadium last Saturday. South Africa uncharacteristically leaked two tries to the Irish, and despite scoring two of their own through Marcell Coetzee and JP Pietersen, the boot of Jonathan Sexton ensured that a 29-15 results reflected the game.

Springboks coach Heyneke Meyer has not been so forgiving and makes five changes to his side. Pietersen comes in on the wing to start for Cornal Hendricks, while both half-backs are replaced with Francois Hougaaard and Handre Pollard dropping to the bench in favour of Cobus Reinach and Patrick Lambie. In the pack, Adriaan Strauss starts at hooker despite his yellow card last week with Bismarck du Plessis missing out, and veteran Schalk Burger starts at blindside for his 74th cap as he is preferred to Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje.

STARTS: Saturday, 2.30pm.

STATS:

England and South Africa have met 36 times between 1906 and 2012. England have won 12, lost 22 and drawn two.

England's record victory in the fixture is a 53-3 (+50) win at Twickenham in 2002. Their record defeat is a 58-10 (-48) loss in Bloemfontein in 2007.

England have not beaten South Africa in 11 matches dating back to 2006, with their best performance a 14-14 draw in Port Elizabeth two years ago.

England's starting XV have 374 caps compared to South Africa's 778.

England's record against South Africa, New Zealand and Australia under head coach Stuart Lancaster is played 12, lost nine, won two, drawn one.

England have lost their last four matches - all to New Zealand. The last time they lost five in a row was in 2006. That year they lost seven in a row.

Hooker Dylan Hartley is England's most capped player with 58, followed by scrum-half Danny Care, who will be making his 50th Test appearance.

Second row Victor Matfield will extend his record as the most capped South African in history to 118 Tests and is oldest Springbok ever at 37 years old.

PAST THREE MEETINGS:

England 15 South Africa 16 (Alberts) 24 November 2012, autumn internationals.

South Africa 14 (Pietersen) England 14 (Care), 23 June 2012, summer tour.

South Africa 36 (Alberts, B du Plessis, Hougaard, Pietersen) England 27 (Flood, Youngs 2), 16 June 2012, summer tour.

ODDS:

England – 1.72

South Africa – 2.15

Draw – 17

TV: Sky Sports 2 at 2.30pm, highlights on BBC3 at 7.30pm.


The bit in bold - I'd missed Lancaster's criticism of Farrell and Care.. Do other's feel that there is any prospect of things changing in these areas?

Gutted Walsh is reffing. Was looking forward to seeing who had the better scrum. Now we'll never know.

Had this as a Pickem, but with our friend Stevie at the helm I'm going 20 point spread for the saffers. Actually, he chickens out sometimes at twickenham. Saffers by 10, with a fairly even penalty count... All the ones to England given out of kicking range and/or when the games up.

But hey I'm not paranoid... He's just out to get us!

Yes, Walsh is not good news at all - shame he's involved.

Sport 24's match-ups...

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/Boks-v-Eng-4-big-tussles-20141113

Rob Houwing, Sport24 chief writer
Cape Town – Collective pride is at stake for both teams, each having come off losses, as England entertain South Africa in a potential Test humdinger at Twickenham on Saturday (16:30 SA time).

But several individual match-ups could be decisive in tilting the balance, and these are four that seem pretty hard to eclipse ...

Willie le Roux v Mike Brown

Here’s hoping for at least reasonably dry weather (that seems in the offing for London at this stage) which would enhance the prospect of the rival fullbacks coming into their own as attacking devices ... because that is easily the favoured string to each electric customer’s bow. This battle is a promoter’s dream: it sees the IRB Player of the Year-nominated Le Roux pit his wits against Brown, who won the Player of the Tournament award in the most recent edition of the Six Nations. The Harlequins favourite has curbed a bit of a “bad boy” image in recent times, to become greatly more focused on his paid profession. If Le Roux has taken his eyes off the ball at times, it’s been more down to a strange inconsistency that has begun to afflict him of late – sometimes even within a specific game, as with last weekend where he started the ill-fated Ireland Test rather better than he ended it.

JP Pietersen v Jonny May

Three Tests at outside centre and three as a substitute wing this year ... perhaps comfortingly for powerful Bok stalwart Pietersen, he’s finally back in his most familiar No 14 jersey (first time since the triumph over France in Paris in late 2013) for this crunch outing and will want to make the most of this start in the berth ahead of Cornal Hendricks. His second-half appetite was admirable in Dublin, including a late consolation try after turning on the “burners”. But the Japan-based player will have to be defensively alert at Twickenham, too, after seeing the footage of lean-legged England left wing Jonny May smoking the likes of Conrad Smith and Israel Dagg en route to a fine try against the All Blacks last weekend. Swindon-born May, 24, has been the talk of English rugby this week because of that effort. Have some of those oohing, aahing folk forgotten what World Cup winner Pietersen is capable of, perhaps?

Duane Vermeulen v Billy Vunipola

This may not be portrait-pretty! Two of the most direct, rugged No 8s in world rugby lock horns on Saturday, as the Boks’ unerringly industrious Vermeulen, another who is in line for the IRB Player of the Year mantle, encounters the rare situation of an opposite number outdoing him on the scale by around 10kg: Brisbane-born youngster Vunipola is officially listed at around 126kg. That said, the tale of the tape doesn’t necessarily translate into superior menace: many South Africans and neutrals alike will probably tip Big Duane to eclipse his slightly clumsy-looking rival on all all-round basis. (Just for starters, the South African is an infinitely superior lineout factor.) Mind you, Vunipola is under some pressure to answer critics who feel the hefty unit doesn’t possess the pace or stamina for a full -- or at least near-full -- clash against top-tier foes. He was hauled off after only 51 minutes against New Zealand. And expect him to be rather more in his element if the England pack is rumbling forward ...

Adriaan Strauss v Dylan Hartley

I admit being seriously disappointed that Heyneke Meyer has debatably left Bismarck du Plessis out of the starting mix for “rotational” reasons ... even after singing his praises as one of the limited Bok shining lights at Aviva Stadium last time out. But if it was at least partly motivated by a fear that abrasive Du Plessis may be too quickly wooed into off-ball skirmishes with England’s ever-provocative Hartley, then maybe stationing the more even-tempered Strauss at No 2 may yet prove a near-masterstroke. There can be no doubting the blond dynamo’s own quality. But the Sharks skipper has an aura about him that England may be relieved to sidestep, certainly in the vital early stages when gains are likely to come in inches rather than metres – it is in scenarios like that the brawny Du Plessis so often revels. Is he as effective off the bench? This match may offer up enduring answers ...


Some big SA names there - my palms are getting sweaty!! On the forum below this article the SA public are sounding very confident. One promising the cheeky POM rednecks a Boklashing!! Sounds unpleasant...

Good article...

In order to give a boklashing you first need to lose to Ireland...and then whip England.

Oh well, one out of two shouldn't be considered a complete failure then.

does anyone know where I can watch the match online on a free live stream? I am abroad and England V SA match is not on the TV..

mystiroakey wrote:In a way I think we should blame the organisers. 3 games in nz .followed by a game v nz and then sa after they have both been together for months getting used to each other. There was allways a chance of 5 losses on the bounce. Under SL we normally get bettet the longer we are together. Our schedule of games is backwards.

Being together for months with a month without rugby did us no favours last week, did it?

Bilt mate. When is this site going to sort the time out?

Almost game time - COME ON ENGLAND!!

quinsforever wrote:Good article...

In order to give a boklashing you first need to lose to Ireland...and then whip England.

Oh well, one out of two shouldn't be considered a complete failure then.

I don't want to find out what a Boklashing is...

How does Walsh's hair look?

Didn't realise Tom Wood was only 16 st 5.

mystiroakey wrote:Bilt mate. When is this site going to sort the time out?

mystir, go to you profile and check your time zone under preferences

here we go lads. lets hope its a great game.

Big Billy looking a bit emotional!

BamBam wrote:Big Billy looking a bit emotional!

Didn't he just? Good to see.

Biltong wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Bilt mate. When is this site going to sort the time out?

mystir, go to you profile and check your time zone under preferences

Ta

Bloody hell farrell

I bet Watson was delighted to get the ball from Farrell!

Brown's looking lively (I hope)

How many flipping knock ons.

seems to be a lot of grabbing Lawes while he's in the air in the line-outs ...didn't think that was allowed?

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!