England vs South Africa November 15th 2014

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 10 Nov 2014, 1:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Courtney Lawes is a doubt, since he is going through concussion protocols. That would see Kruis start and Kitchener on the bench, unless Lancaster wants to do something funky with Clark. Luther Burrell not in contention, and Stephen Myler still out with a hamstring problem. Haskell is there.

England team to face South Africa:

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton)
David Wilson (Bath)
Dave Attwood (Bath)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Tom Wood (Northampton)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements

Rob Webber (Bath), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), George Kruis (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), George Ford (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

South Africa

15 Willie le Roux,
14 JP Pietersen,
13 Jan Serfontein,

12 Jean de Villiers,
11 Bryan Habana,
10 Pat Lambie,
9 Cobus Reinach,
8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements:

16 Bismarck du Plessis,
17 Trevor Nyakane,
18 Coenie Oosthuizen,
19 Bakkies Botha,
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje,
21 Francois Hougaard,
22 Handré Pollard,
23 Cornal Hendricks

England have gone without a win in their last eleven Tests against the Springboks. Their best recent result was a draw in Port Elizabeth in June 2012. The match on Saturday will be almost eight years exactly since England's last victory. England have lost their last four Twickenham encounters.

This is the third time Lancaster has taken England through a round of Autumn Internationals. In 2012, his team beat New Zealand. In 2013, it was Australia. He has never beaten South Africa; his record reads one home loss, two away losses and one away draw.

by asoreleftshoulder Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:20 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I don't have a problem with the yellow. You can't even blame Walsh this time because he saw it but was prepared to play on. The TMO suggested a second look and it clinched the deal.
tmos should NOT be allowed to introduce slowmos that the ref saw in real time. everything looks worse in slow mo. everything. do we want tmos to run the game in hindsight, and see multiple yellows for nothing infringements?

look at the yellow for strauss last week.

Strauss got binned for cumulative penalties,ref said it to the captain as he was issuing the yellow.

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:20 pm

Due ja vu.

by quinsforever Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:20 pm

Taylorman wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I don't have a problem with the yellow. You can't even blame Walsh this time because he saw it but was prepared to play on. The TMO suggested a second look and it clinched the deal.
tmos should NOT be allowed to introduce slowmos that the ref saw in real time. everything looks worse in slow mo. everything. do we want tmos to run the game in hindsight, and see multiple yellows for nothing infringements?

look at the yellow for strauss last week.

you crack me up quins. Hartley niggles Coles who kicks out without looking and youre all over it. Now Hartley lines the guy up and then stomps on him and its now nothing. Common ingredient? Hartley. take yer medicine pal. looks like his negligence will cost them the match? karma? looks like it...

one is in a maul. the other was after the whistle had gone. not comparable.

by Taylorman Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:20 pm

Well done South Africa. Too good in the end. Hard luck England. A couple more chances they had taken an they could have won.

by stub Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:20 pm

Well played SA - Eng not good enough today.

by nobbled Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:20 pm

Well done SA. Deserved win. Seems England only have one half of good rugby a game.
Proved that Farrell shouldn't have been there.

by Geordie Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:21 pm

Farrell has to be dropped.

Hartley , Wood can follow him.

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:21 pm

Well done SA.

by Taylorman Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:22 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I don't have a problem with the yellow. You can't even blame Walsh this time because he saw it but was prepared to play on. The TMO suggested a second look and it clinched the deal.
tmos should NOT be allowed to introduce slowmos that the ref saw in real time. everything looks worse in slow mo. everything. do we want tmos to run the game in hindsight, and see multiple yellows for nothing infringements?

look at the yellow for strauss last week.

you crack me up quins. Hartley niggles Coles who kicks out without looking and youre all over it. Now Hartley lines the guy up and then stomps on him and its now nothing. Common ingredient? Hartley. take yer medicine pal. looks like his negligence will cost them the match? karma? looks like it...
one is in a maul. the other was after the whistle had gone. not comparable.

no. One was a kick. One was a stomp. neither is allowed.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:22 pm

Comments later when I'm less peed off.

Have to say I disagree with those attacking Walsh, thought he was mostly good and made an equal number of errors to each side. He was consistent in how he favoured the defending team in the breakdown and we didn't adapt

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:22 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Farrell has to be dropped.

Hartley , Wood can follow him.

No Not Hartley. He is key in set plays and his yellow was a bit 50/50.

by Heaf Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:23 pm

Not sure why SA players were consistently allowed to 'fall over' at the front of mauls and then grab England players around the legs and hold on - how is that not a penalty?

by englandglory4ever Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:24 pm

Totally poor performance by several England players. Very poor. Farrell, Hartley, vunipolar must be dropped. Wood could go too for my money. Abject error strewn dire performance.

by TJ Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:24 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I don't have a problem with the yellow. You can't even blame Walsh this time because he saw it but was prepared to play on. The TMO suggested a second look and it clinched the deal.
tmos should NOT be allowed to introduce slowmos that the ref saw in real time. everything looks worse in slow mo. everything. do we want tmos to run the game in hindsight, and see multiple yellows for nothing infringements?

look at the yellow for strauss last week.

you crack me up quins. Hartley niggles Coles who kicks out without looking and youre all over it. Now Hartley lines the guy up and then stomps on him and its now nothing. Common ingredient? Hartley. take yer medicine pal. looks like his negligence will cost them the match? karma? looks like it...
one is in a maul. the other was after the whistle had gone. not comparable.

The ref shouted "step step" meaning step over the player on the ground. Hartley stamped on him instead

by quinsforever Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:25 pm

farrell needs to be dropped. for a long time. and while we are at it lets get rid of his father too.

SA were not that far ahead in this match. 1 intercept try and a couple of soft penalties.

great forward battles. enjoyed the mauls.

thought walsh made a horlix of the lineouts. let lawes get interfered with in the first half and then pinged england for same in the second. irritating.

by FecklessRogue Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:25 pm

Taylorman wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I don't have a problem with the yellow. You can't even blame Walsh this time because he saw it but was prepared to play on. The TMO suggested a second look and it clinched the deal.
tmos should NOT be allowed to introduce slowmos that the ref saw in real time. everything looks worse in slow mo. everything. do we want tmos to run the game in hindsight, and see multiple yellows for nothing infringements?

look at the yellow for strauss last week.

you crack me up quins. Hartley niggles Coles who kicks out without looking and youre all over it. Now Hartley lines the guy up and then stomps on him and its now nothing. Common ingredient? Hartley. take yer medicine pal. looks like his negligence will cost them the match? karma? looks like it...
one is in a maul. the other was after the whistle had gone. not comparable.

no. One was a kick. One was a stomp. neither is allowed.

No point Taylorman. Quins see's only what he wants to see.

by nobbled Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:26 pm

The last time I think they would have been penalised but it went on for a Try anyway.

by TightHEAD Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:26 pm

Poor.

Has SL taken england as far as he can?

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:26 pm

England just don't look like they can beat the big teams. Perhaps with Tuilagi
in there, but without him, they're toothless. Agree with GeordieFalcon - Wood, Hartley and Farrell have to go.

Lancaster's done well to build England from a weak place, but you have to question whether his tactics can get England to the top.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:27 pm

Hartley was great bit peeved by the yellow myself. Key poor decisions again by 9 and 10 and some white line fever by Attwood. That is 1 game they should be kicking themselves for.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:27 pm

I lied, have to post now, to vent a bit

Drop Farrell, use that to alter the backline a bit. Drop Wood. Work on basic handling. Ask why we can play rugby when we are chasing the game but not be consistent. Learn to adapt to the ref. STOP GETTING ISOLATED OR KNOCKING IT ON!

At least I felt Brown and Care were much better (that pass excepted, obviously...), Morgan did very well

Overall though, I think we have gone backwards since last year

by trebellbobaggins Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:28 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Comments later when I'm less peed off.

Have to say I disagree with those attacking Walsh, thought he was mostly good and made an equal number of errors to each side. He was consistent in how he favoured the defending team in the breakdown and we didn't adapt

agree, I don't like him but I just consider England to be inept now, simply not good enough.

by Hood83 Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:28 pm

SA too good for us again. Again, nothing to indicate we have closed the gap. Players or management or both?

by nobbled Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:29 pm

I am not a fan of Walsh. However I have no complaints today. Sone arguable calls - there always are in any game. But I think he reffed really well today.

by Guest Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:29 pm

I have to say it was a deliberate stamp for me. He is clearly looking down at the leg while he slaps and then drops his boot on it. How anyone could think this isn't worse than Coles flapping his foot last week is rather beyond my understanding.

JDV classy in his interview as always, shame I think I heard booing.

by **Biltong** Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:29 pm

Well played England, commiserations, you gave us one hell of a game.

When are captains going to be allowed to challenge poor touch judge decisions?

That was a huge turning point in the game

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:32 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:I have to say it was a deliberate stamp for me. He is clearly looking down at the leg while he slaps and then drops his boot on it. Quite how anyone could think this isn't worse than Coles flapping his foot last week is rather beyond my understanding.

Of course it was. He touches the knee, takes another step, then stamps. No way it can have been an accident, and it clearly was more than just a step. Yellow all day. And so unnecessary.

by Hood83 Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:33 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I lied, have to post now, to vent a bit

Drop Farrell, use that to alter the backline a bit. Drop Wood. Work on basic handling. Ask why we can play rugby when we are chasing the game but not be consistent. Learn to adapt to the ref. STOP GETTING ISOLATED OR KNOCKING IT ON!

At least I felt Brown and Care were much better (that pass excepted, obviously...), Morgan did very well

Overall though, I think we have gone backwards since last year

Agreed, we're in reverse. I thought Care was very poor, far more ponderous than usual. Just for once I'd like us to recognise we cannot beat SA with willowy forwards. Wood was desperate.

This should give me the opportunity to play my 'I never wanted Lancaster to be coach' card Very Happy

. But frankly I think the players are as much to blame.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:33 pm

SA look much more composed with Lambie at 10, he has a great all round game although that touch miss was a shocker.

by The Saint Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:38 pm

Unlucky lads, I feel your pain.

by Guest Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:39 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Farrell has to be dropped.

Hartley , Wood can follow him.

No Not Hartley. He is key in set plays and his yellow was a bit 50/50.

It really wasn't.

by Manu's Boxing Coach Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:39 pm

Lancaster undoubtedly has his flaws but the blame for this defeat for me is solely down to the players the amount of fundamental errors some guys made out there today you can't account for as a coach.

Though there are areas that need to be changes such as, are the back row balance, Farrell out and we have to somehow try and get our wingers involved in the game more.

The most frustrating thing about this game was that is was so bloody winnable. SA were there for the taking.

by Geordie Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:41 pm

Hartley is good in the set pieces which is vital, but im just not sure he offers enough round the pitch. Carrying is a vital role of all forwards these days and yet how many of our pack actually are capable of breaking the line with interest.

Robshaw did well he put pace at direction when he got it.

Wood gets knocked back when he carries.

Morgan was excellent.

1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Brookes
4 Lawes
5 Attwood
6 Haskell (Oh for Matt Garvey)
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

for the next game.

by stub Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:42 pm

Yeah, the Hartley thing was a yellow to be fair. Walsh did OK - never thought I'd say that...

England must do better but not a million miles behind the best. Agree that Farrell needs some time off. Hope Manu is fit for all of the world cup.

by Taylorman Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:43 pm

Was a good game from a neutral point of view. One thing I've noticed more recently is so much more seems to happen in a test these days. Tries come from nowhere all the time and somethings always happening. Some very good tries today and fun to watch.

Loved the little South African medic celebrating the try in the corner as if she were one of the players, but still trying to get the water bottle to someone...anyone. Little cutie.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:44 pm

LOL! typical English crap, talk all week about how they will win and how they should have won the week prior, but don't fear the learning curve is still in Englands favour because this will bode well for the world cup they will win next year!
They are now an entity that always evolves and learns from every game,they are beyond a super computer now they learn that much.

Laugh

Suck it England get used to it because this will be a common them over the next year! losing that is. thumbsup

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:46 pm

You're so articulate Dave.

by **Biltong** Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:46 pm

To be honest the difference in this match was the Lambie chip to Le Roux who offloaded beautifully to Reinach, deft little skills that wasn't evident for England

by Geordie Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:47 pm

That's funny Deluded all ive seen on here is an expected defeat...go crawl back under your rock please

by **Biltong** Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:47 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:LOL! typical English crap, talk all week about how they will win and how they should have won the week prior, but don't fear the learning curve is still in Englands favour because this will bode well for the world cup they will win next year!
They are now an entity that always evolves and learns from every game,they are beyond a super computer now they learn that much.

Suck it England get used to it because this will be a common them over the next year! losing that is.

Show some class please

by Heaf Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:47 pm

articulate - hmmm

by stub Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:47 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:LOL! typical English crap, talk all week about how they will win and how they should have won the week prior, but don't fear the learning curve is still in Englands favour because this will bode well for the world cup they will win next year!
They are now an entity that always evolves and learns from every game,they are beyond a super computer now they learn that much.

Suck it England get used to it because this will be a common them over the next year! losing that is.

Thanks Dave - great insight. Hug

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:50 pm

Chin up boys i expect you to thump the wobbly aussies , my judgement being based on Johnny Wilkinson put a world cup winning drop goal past them over a decade ago.
Well thats how SKY and English journalism judge such games.

by sad_gimp Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:51 pm

Ford, Eastmond, Tuilagi/Burgess.

This is what we are missing imo. Discuss Smile

by stub Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:51 pm

Biltong wrote:To be honest the difference in this match was the Lambie chip to Le Roux who offloaded beautifully to Reinach, deft little skills that wasn't evident for England

Yep, we can't really pull things off like that at the moment unfortunately.

by Duty281 Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:53 pm

Lack of experience and cohesion cost England again, as well as too many individual errors.

South Africa clinical.

by GavinDragon Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:53 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Chin up boys i expect you to thump the wobbly aussies , my judgement being based on Johnny Wilkinson put a world cup winning drop goal past them over a decade ago.
Well thats how SKY and English journalism judge such games.

I really am embarrassed that you are Welsh

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:55 pm

I really don't think Eastmond is up to this level of rugby tbh, he doesn't really offer anything.

by BamBam Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:56 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Chin up boys i expect you to thump the wobbly aussies , my judgement being based on Johnny Wilkinson put a world cup winning drop goal past them over a decade ago.
Well thats how SKY and English journalism judge such games.

I really am embarrassed that you are Welsh

I'm embarrassed for his mother that she didn't just swallow him

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:57 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Farrell has to be dropped.

Hartley , Wood can follow him.

No Not Hartley. He is key in set plays and his yellow was a bit 50/50.

It really wasn't.

What he gives to our line out And scrum is invaluable. Why drop a key player?

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