Wales vs the Boks

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Wales v South Africa
29 November 2014
KO: 14:30
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)

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Another week of misery for us Welshmen. What a shame, so much to be proud of vs the ABs but the scoreline does not reflect that.

These boys have shown they can push SA and it would be good to take something from this Autumn Series though I doubt many of expect we will.

Will be missing some good players who have to return to their clubs. So will SA.

We also have a good number of worrying injuries. Not sure if the team announcement will be Tuesday or not...?


The boks fielded a few experimental selections last Saturday against Italy in a weakened team. I imagine they will change a few players around and we will see a side similar to that which beat England.

gavstar wrote: delme parfitt has started to say what I've been on about for a while....get Henson on board. I know most think that ship has sailed, but what he's doing at bath says otherwise. Owen Williams and gavin would be exactly what we need, especially if we can't get Jamie Roberts to start playing like a complete12 not just the kick the door down ram he is. every pass he had from biggar he ran into the ground. jd was never match fit, and when he is his game is superb, BUT WE NEED more at 12, and a good 10 on the bench.

I have a ticket at Bath and I've seen him play several times this season - he is definately NOT want Wales need now. He's been OK but nothing special. He's not first choice 10, 12 or 15 at Bath so why on earth would we want him back in a Welsh shirt. As you say - that ship has well and truly sailed.

i'm thinking once he is back in the whole set up ,he has innate skills, he could get back to what he does best at 12 I would say. It doesn't have to be 'special' it just has to 'be there' which it certainly isn't at the moment in the welsh team . He makes it happen for others, Jamie is one dimensional. We are all talking up skill set being weak , gavin has the skill set. Surely in that alone he is further ahead than some.We could be weaving in experience and youngsters together. Theres a lot to learn from Gavin. the coaches say he is working with the younger players at Bath.

I am undecided on the Henson issue, as he had enough chances, do we take one last chance etc etc.

I don't think his skills have ever been doubted but has he over come his mental demons, would he disrupt the camp etc etc.

I guess only by trying him will these issues be addressed but if he's not in the 6 Nations squad then he won't make WC squad.

I wonder if hook has played his last in the jersey. same could be said for him too. not in the 6ns not in the rwc. not that it would bother me in his case.

Hooks absence wouldn't bother me either

First post on the game since it was on so apologies if this has all been said before.

This game hasn't answered any questions for me, and I dont necessarily believe we've 'moved on' now. The last 10 minutes was a lesson in how not to win a game from Wales. Luckily, South Africa decided they didnt deserve to win more so than Wales were trying to lose. The key moments towards the end of the game again had welsh players making silly decisions, Roberts deciding to run into 3 bok defenders in his own 22 instead of putting the ball downfield, Baldwin picking and going completely on his own the long way round on the Bok tryline and getting turned over and then Scott Williams trying to keep that kick in for no reason at all an handing the boks a 5m scrum.

I have no doubt that Oz, New Zealand and usually South Africa would have won that game in the last 10 minutes. South Africa were poor today, put it down to missing first line players, fatigue and some dodgy refereeing, whatever, they just werent as good as they usually are. Their ball-playing skills were non-existant. I worry that the next time we play one of the top 3 we'll go back to being clsoe but no cigar until we can make better decisions whilst tired. I'm starting to really take Gatland/Hammetts comments of fitness issues between regional/test level very seriously now.

Other points
- Biggar was immense
- Hendricks should have never been yellow carded
- Warburton was the complete 7
- Liam Williams/Halfpenny both need to be in the back 3 for me
- A lot better variation with attacking play!!! This has been my biggest pluspoint of the AIs in all honesty, VARIATION!!!! We have the players who are able to play direct, around or over defenses but only recently have we started doing anything other than try to go through them.

Overall for the AIs, I'd give Wales a 7/10. The ozz game was there for the taking, we're still not smart/fit enough as a team to consistantly play with the top 3 and win, SA wont be that bad again, New Zealand was our best performance in context and we lost 5 tries to 1.

offload wrote:

gavstar wrote: delme parfitt has started to say what I've been on about for a while....get Henson on board. I know most think that ship has sailed, but what he's doing at bath says otherwise. Owen Williams and gavin would be exactly what we need, especially if we can't get Jamie Roberts to start playing like a complete12 not just the kick the door down ram he is. every pass he had from biggar he ran into the ground. jd was never match fit, and when he is his game is superb, BUT WE NEED more at 12, and a good 10 on the bench.

I have a ticket at Bath and I've seen him play several times this season - he is definately NOT want Wales need now.  He's been OK but nothing special.  He's not first choice 10, 12 or 15 at Bath so why on earth would we want him back in a Welsh shirt.  As you say - that ship has well and truly sailed.

He's a tried and tested option for starters. He is also much better cover than Priest and Hook combined, whilst being a better goal-kicker than both.

I too believe in someone like Henson (but not necessarily actually him) being a much needed addition to the team. I think we'd be much better with a 2nd ball player at 12. The problem is that usually a ball player ends up being too small for inside centre, e.g. Hook. In the modern game they become a revolving door in defence and unable to get over the gainline if need be by boshing. Similarly a ball playing 12 needs to be able to pass and kick - something Roberts seems incapable of doing. So we need a bit more of an all rounder I think.

Henson seems to fit the mould of the above - he can take pressure of the 10 with very good kicking; he has the physicality to bosh when needed but can also hit a gap (although not sure of his pace anymore, if he ever had it?!); he has the skills to put people in space too with a good rugby brain. Distribution, physicality, a kicking game - top marks.

However, we know his problems. Which is why I suggest a player like him, not necessarily him. Do we have someone like this? Could we convert someone? Patchell? Shingler (I know very little about him tbh)?? Anscombe??? Put Hook on the roids????

Going forward we need to move 1/2p back to the wing where he is far more threatening and where his defence will also serve us well. Leaves us the option of either Cuthbert or North for the other wings. For me, we can't afford to have two wingers with defence as bad as theirs if they're not scoring. Also allows L.Williams to move to full back where he gives us good variety going forward.

I'm not a fan of discarding Roberts as his defence is superb, but i am a fan of bringing back in Henson at 12. Whenever he has played for us, we tend to win (I know that's not down to him) but he's the type of player we are crying out for in midfield to bring our back into play with his skill set. He seems to have got his head down at Bath, and considering he was nailed on for the last world cup after his superb game vs england, only to suffer another injury, I think it'd be worth another crack at bringing him back in. Him and Roberts worked well in that warm up game, and I think he'd work well with JD2 also.

Griff wrote:I too believe in someone like Henson (but not necessarily actually him) being a much needed addition to the team.  I think we'd be much better with a 2nd ball player at 12.  The problem is that usually a ball player ends up being too small for inside centre, e.g. Hook.  In the modern game they become a revolving door in defence and unable to get over the gainline if need be by boshing.  Similarly a ball playing 12 needs to be able to pass and kick - something Roberts seems incapable of doing.  So we need a bit more of an all rounder I think.

Henson seems to fit the mould of the above - he can take pressure of the 10 with very good kicking; he has the physicality to bosh when needed but can also hit a gap (although not sure of his pace anymore, if he ever had it?!); he has the skills to put people in space too with a good rugby brain.  Distribution, physicality, a kicking game - top marks.

However, we know his problems.  Which is why I suggest a player like him, not necessarily him.  Do we have someone like this?  Could we convert someone?  Patchell?  Shingler (I know very little about him tbh)?? Anscombe???  Put Hook on the roids????

If we look at the centre options we do have, they're all quite similar in what they bring, good runners with so-so distribution and little to no kicking game.

I'd have thought Allen would fit a play making 12, but he has disappointed me so far, seems more of an outside centre. Patchell does have the attributes to make a good centre (pace, eye for the gap, good pass, kicking) but needs to work on his defence - but he seems to prefer Flyhalf, and we need some depth there.

There are other Welsh players like Hook/Henson but no where near their talent. Henson is still probably the most complete centre we've had in the last 15+ years, he can defend, pass and kick to a high standard. I wouldn't mind either him or Hook getting another crack at 12 before the World Cup, we need options.

well the need of a more complete 12 has been identified, and regarding the time we have for preparation I suggested Henson because ,as griff says, he fits the mould. he was gats go to for defence, and no question that ball Jamie carried in the 22would have been kicked by hensons massive boot. and although I've championed biggar since he displaced hook at the ospreys, Henson would have had that drop goal no problem.

I also think as a bench player he would be a better cover option than hook, who's had far more chances , and far more c8ck ups. hook has made the bench when he wasn't first choice 10 or 12 at perps, and an average,being generous, 15 .

People are still talking about dropping Roberts after he proved his critics wrong? The only centre that should make way for me is JD2.

The Saint wrote:People are still talking about dropping Roberts after he proved his critics wrong? The only centre that should make way for me is JD2.

He got over the gain line, which was great. I'd just like to see a player who can also pass and kick too in that position. If we can get Roberts to develop those skills then great, but for me so much that we do currently goes through Roberts and ultimately stops with him. I mean literally stops dead with him. The ball rarely moves along the line from him. Now he's developed butter fingers to go with it! Being a bit harsh now perhaps...

I agree about JD2 in many ways. He doesn't provide much different to Roberts. He's not much of a distributer or footballer, and he's off form. I've said elsewhere that I like a team where players in similar positions have different but complimentary skills. E.g. Scott Gibbs on the inside and Guscott on the outside! Victor and Bakkies! Roberts and O'Driscoll! Shane and Gareth Thomas! In team Wales we seem to have gone a bit homogenous like rugby league and developed players on the wings and centres with similar characteristics which doesn't always give us the option to change things up if the first plan is not working.

Roberts can kick and pass, he's been doing it throughout his career. Don't see where this myth comes from. It's a lot like the myth than Paul James is a big scrummer. And if you're as big as Roberts then obviously you'd like to utilise it by running at the opposition.

I prefer if he ran the other way. But that's only a personal preferment

The Saint wrote:People are still talking about dropping Roberts after he proved his critics wrong? The only centre that should make way for me is JD2.

You want to play in the centre for Wales, Saint?

Im backing him, he talks a good game!

George Carlin wrote:

The Saint wrote:People are still talking about dropping Roberts after he proved his critics wrong? The only centre that should make way for me is JD2.

You want to play in the centre for Wales, Saint?

Seems I missed out a comma. That said, I have until Feb to prove my fitness. Never say never.

The Saint wrote:Roberts can kick and pass, he's been doing it throughout his career. Don't see where this myth comes from. It's a lot like the myth than Paul James is a big scrummer. And if you're as big as Roberts then obviously you'd like to utilise it by running at the opposition.

Very occasionally doesn't constitute 'throughout his career'.  That's like saying that Adam Jones has been taking drop goals throughout his career as he had a go for the Blues the other night!

Roberts takes contact far more than he passes.  Perhaps 8 or 9 times out of 10.  Maybe that's the tactics and what Gats wants, so perhpas harsh to judge the player.  And yes, when you're a lump then it is a good weapon.  But lets vary the weapon to keep the opposition guessing.  You didn't see NZ use Ma'a Nonu to crash it up every move.  And even he developed his distribution skills from a non-passer/kicker to quite a competent one.

In terms of kicking - Roberts has a foot like a sheriff's badge.

Griff wrote:

The Saint wrote:Roberts can kick and pass, he's been doing it throughout his career. Don't see where this myth comes from. It's a lot like the myth than Paul James is a big scrummer. And if you're as big as Roberts then obviously you'd like to utilise it by running at the opposition.

Very occasionally doesn't constitute 'throughout his career'.  That's like saying that Adam Jones has been taking drop goals throughout his career as he had a go for the Blues the other night!

Roberts takes contact far more than he passes.  Perhaps 8 or 9 times out of 10.  Maybe that's the tactics and what Gats wants, so perhpas harsh to judge the player.  And yes, when you're a lump then it is a good weapon.  But lets vary the weapon to keep the opposition guessing.  You didn't see NZ use Ma'a Nonu to crash it up every move.  And even he developed his distribution skills from a non-passer/kicker to quite a competent one.

In terms of kicking - Roberts has a foot like a sheriff's badge.

Not really, I've been watching the guy throughout his career and he is a very capable distributor of the ball. He isn't often required to kick, but that doesn't mean he can't kick. That comparison with Adam Jones seems very daft.

Fair if he does. Our attack however, is based around strike runners like him. When it's on, he passes. He doesn't ignore overlaps or anything like that. His form for Wales has been much better than it is in Paris. Nonu was in and around the ABs squad for a very long time and had to work hard on other parts of his game to be the player we know he is now. When he is playing though, he is their main strike runner in the backs. ABs backline play though, relies very much who plays at 10, 12, 13. They play very differently with Barrett, Carter, SBW, etc.

It's still a myth for me, a lot like the Paul James one, something else I've always known.

ok. if he can kick and pass more often, lets see it. we can't rely on the bosh at every play in every game. yes it has served well in the 6ns, but not otherwise.
Also we need to be smarter in using him as a decoy , and the wingers need to do more in field ( not in the plan I know, but should be )
Off the point of this thread but something else ,. lets develop lineout catching ,we are very basic and non inventive. just to highlight one thing, nz were standing infront of our jumpers and jumping first.
They were also tapping high balls in open play back to an oncoming runner. Good basic skills needed, but it can be better than some of the two handed catches usually ending on the floor, turn over etc  its also a way of spitting the defence and creating a gap, choices choices for Cuthbert,, good ploy he never makes a tackle decision in time.

The Saint wrote:People are still talking about dropping Roberts after he proved his critics wrong? The only centre that should make way for me is JD2.

Roberts was excellent against the ABs but quiet the rest of series, JD was rushed back to soon.

Apart from a couple dropped balls against Fiji I thought he was very good throughout. JD2 definitely was brought back too soon. Scott Williams deserved more opportunity, I thought Allen looked pretty good in his Aus cameo too.

The Saint wrote: ABs backline play though, relies very much who plays at 10, 12, 13. They play very differently with Barrett, Carter, SBW, etc.

geez nothing more truer than that. Barrett as a starting 10 has been a complete and utter failure. Versus SA at Ellis just sat there in the pocket the entire match while the Boks ran through him.

Against Wales he stuffed the combination with SBW who was always getting the ball the same time as the defence were right on him.

Then look what happened when Slade came on at 10. Barrett turned into the star impact player we know him to be and virtually won the match.

Cruden works much better with SBW and we haven't seen that combination yet and that will cement with the Chiefs but Hansen must have ruled out Barrett as 10 start for next year. If not he'll have lost the plot.

The problem is always when do you try these guys out, coaches always have their 1st XV in their mind and for Gatland it is Roberts and JD and if both fit and on form so do I but like I said when do we experiment.

We have Sc Williams, Allen, Roberts and JD as the current ones being used but like I said when do we swap them, games like the Fiji game and even the Italy game are no win situations for coaches.

If we swap to many we risk losing (which we have) but then us fans criticise them for not trying out players.

Taylorman wrote:

The Saint wrote: ABs backline play though, relies very much who plays at 10, 12, 13. They play very differently with Barrett, Carter, SBW, etc.

geez nothing more truer than that. Barrett as a starting 10 has been a complete and utter failure. Versus SA at Ellis just sat there in the pocket the entire match while the Boks ran through him.

Against Wales he stuffed the combination with SBW who was always getting the ball the same time as the defence were right on him.

Then look what happened when Slade came on at 10. Barrett turned into the star impact player we know him to be and virtually won the match.

Cruden works much better with SBW and we haven't seen that combination yet and that will cement with the Chiefs but Hansen must have ruled out Barrett as 10 start for next year. If not he'll have lost the plot.

So what is Beauden Barrett's best position? Super sub?

IronMike wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Saint wrote: ABs backline play though, relies very much who plays at 10, 12, 13. They play very differently with Barrett, Carter, SBW, etc.

geez nothing more truer than that. Barrett as a starting 10 has been a complete and utter failure. Versus SA at Ellis just sat there in the pocket the entire match while the Boks ran through him.

Against Wales he stuffed the combination with SBW who was always getting the ball the same time as the defence were right on him.

Then look what happened when Slade came on at 10. Barrett turned into the star impact player we know him to be and virtually won the match.

Cruden works much better with SBW and we haven't seen that combination yet and that will cement with the Chiefs but Hansen must have ruled out Barrett as 10 start for next year. If not he'll have lost the plot.

So what is Beauden Barrett's best position? Super sub?

yep...best sub since subs started by a mile...I think the structure and responsibility of managing the game at 10 inhibits his creativity. Coming on with twenty to go he gets license to make a difference- and always has (except that time he got binned a minute after coming on!).