FA Cup Final Thread - 2014/15 season

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

FA Cup Final  

Arsenal vs Aston Villa

[mystiroakey]

They haven't really been cheated by the FA as this is out of there jurisdiction.

This is all on FIFA.

FIFA could and possibly should have asked the FA to boot them out- But they didn't- It is within the rules that that they could have.

The FA now has the option to boot them out- But the west ham lawyers would have a field day as they haven't broken any FA rules, only FIFA ones that have already been dealt with.

The FA could change the rules to include this quite rare occurrence but they cant backdate the rules.

What is stopping other clubs from doing it in the future you ask?

well FIFA can ban them.

The FA has punished clubs for fielding ineligible players, but this one wasn't ineligible from the FA's point of view or rule book(the important  factor)

Its another FIFA farce as allways.

They have fined them an amount to make out they have done something about it and an amount and punishment that West ham cant be bothered to dispute therefore eliminating any extra work....

[Azzy]

This is why we need David Ginola. Or Jerome Champagne. Or Prince Ali. Anyone with half a brain, to come into power and sort football out. It's borderline criminal that West Ham could break an international football rule, receive such a paltry fine, and the smaller club (who we are supposedly trying to protect in the modern era) are ignored.

If I was a Bristol City fan I'd be screaming for justice.

[mystiroakey]

Bristol city has the option to sue west ham. But they do not have any option to sue FIFA or the FA.

I can see them trying it. And an out of court settlement reached for a 100k or so.

again eliminating any extra work

[Dolphin Ziggler]

We didn't field an ineligible player for the FA Cup. We didn't cheat anyone, let alone Bristol City.

[mystiroakey]

correct and that is where the problem lies- he was however ineligible by FIFA rules to play for his domestic club whilst on international duty.

and they dished out the punishment. The FA cant do anything about it.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Do you understand the situation Azzy? Or have you read something in the Sun, about 2 weeks after it was all news and people with half a brain have actually discussed it?

The information surrounding an issue is always good to know. We're not Manchester United, so FIFA clearly isn't going to bum us. Not like they gave a Poopie over the Tevez stuff.

Sakho was injured. For 3 weeks. We didn't withdraw him from the competition. We told them he was too injured to fly, based on medical evidence. We offered, as is in the rules, for them to check his medics status. They didn't. Two days before Senegal were eliminated Sakho made a comeback from injury, for 30 minutes. He didn't fly with the squad, he can't fly due to his back issue, so he got a limo.

Not mentioning of course that the idiots injured Sakho not during a game but when giving him a massage. They also gave us no information about Kouyate's return from the ACON, with him arriving two days later than we expected and injured, which they didn't tell us

[mystiroakey]

You are just making excuses Dolph- the only fact in your post is this

"We didn't withdraw him from the competition"

I dont really care what happens after and I think its a tough call. however you broke FIFA's rules. Its as simple as that- paperwork mistakes happen all the time. Celtic got done by UEFA on a paperwork issue but they issued the standard fine(3 goal reversed)

I also dont like the fact some people that misunderstand the situation are blaming the FA. the FA cannot do anything about it.

FIFA are also a bunch of numpties and need to be consistent, but they never are.

If you need to read more about it check the  telegraph article- they will give you the a much more balanced view.. The ins and outs of "was he injured" or "could he fly" or "we offered them a medical" is completely immaterial if he was still technically part of there squad and therefore technically on international duty. The Fifa rules state that if the player has gone back to his club whilst the rest of the team are still in the international tournament he can only play domestically if the international team in question is consulted and agrees he can play.

Yes its a minor infringement(not asking the international team- but they could have easily said no and it was there right to say no under FIFA's rules)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/west-ham/11391330/West%20-Ham-escape-FA-Cup-ejection-after-day-of-farce.html

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Indeed. But we didn't really do anything wrong. We didn't withdraw the player, he then wasn't selected in the final squad, we gave them their chance of medical examination which they refused, and we haven't done anything since then that actually goes against the medical advice we gave Senegal. He cannot fly.

I have no particular problem with the fine, its the indignation and calls for withdrawal. We owe Bristol City nothing, the only people with any claim can be Senegal.

[Azzy]

Do you understand the situation Azzy? Or have you read something in the Sun, about 2 weeks after it was all news and people with half a brain have actually discussed it?

I have always found you to be argumentative, but never offensive. Until now. Get off your high horse - if this was my club I'd be embarrassed about the whole situation. I'm still embarrassed that Lee Hughes played football for my club. And that wasn't anything my club had any control over.

Regardless of FA rules, Sakho was ineligible. Regardless of injury, regardless of Senegal's subsequent defeat, regardless of limo rides and made-up stories by West Ham to dodge the issue. The fact of the matter is that according to the international rules of association football, Sakho should not have played in the game, and in doing so West Ham have cheated Bristol City. They beat them using a player they shouldn't have been playing. West Ham do owe Bristol City. They owe them respect. They owe the game of football respect. And the Senegal FA wanted to assess him, but West Ham didn't allow them to. Senegal have every right to assess the player. I've never heard of such a stance from a club before.

Players play for clubs when ineligible all the time. In lower leagues, that results in points deductions, expulsion from competitions, transfer embargoes, pretty much any reasonable penalty. West Ham have essentially paid for Blatter's PA for a week, when the serious matter of ignoring FIFA rules has been largely ignored.

Admittedly this pales into insignificance when compared to the pathetic fines and bans handed out to clubs and nations whose fans racially abuse players, but again, compare it to Bendtner's fine, it's nowhere near enough.

On the other hand, I think West Ham were hard done by over Tevez and Mascherano. It was a grey area at the time and they were made to be the poster boys for a tactic other clubs happily exploited before them. And look where Sheffield United are now, even with all that settlement cash.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Do you understand the situation Azzy? Or have you read something in the Sun, about 2 weeks after it was all news and people with half a brain have actually discussed it?

I have always found you to be argumentative, but never offensive. Until now. Get off your high horse - if this was my club I'd be embarrassed about the whole situation. I'm still embarrassed that Lee Hughes played football for my club. And that wasn't anything my club had any control over.

Regardless of FA rules, Sakho was ineligible. Regardless of injury, regardless of Senegal's subsequent defeat, regardless of limo rides and made-up stories by West Ham to dodge the issue. The fact of the matter is that according to the international rules of association football, Sakho should not have played in the game, and in doing so West Ham have cheated Bristol City. They beat them using a player they shouldn't have been playing. West Ham do owe Bristol City. They owe them respect. They owe the game of football respect. And the Senegal FA wanted to assess him, but West Ham didn't allow them to. Senegal have every right to assess the player. I've never heard of such a stance from a club before.

Players play for clubs when ineligible all the time. In lower leagues, that results in points deductions, expulsion from competitions, transfer embargoes, pretty much any reasonable penalty. West Ham have essentially paid for Blatter's PA for a week, when the serious matter of ignoring FIFA rules has been largely ignored.

Admittedly this pales into insignificance when compared to the pathetic fines and bans handed out to clubs and nations whose fans racially abuse players, but again, compare it to Bendtner's fine, it's nowhere near enough.

On the other hand, I think West Ham were hard done by over Tevez and Mascherano. It was a grey area at the time and they were made to be the poster boys for a tactic other clubs happily exploited before them. And look where Sheffield United are now, even with all that settlement cash.

He wasnt ineligible. And i'm happy for you to be offended if you're going to be a moron. Your embarrassment over Lee Hughes is so sanctimonious.

I mean, the rest of this is such red top Love sacks im not sure where to start. Does Adrian Durham feed you in the mornings? No one made up any issue. He was eligible by the FA rules to play in the competition. Senegal have kicked off because we are quite possibly about to sue them for how they injured Sakho. There's dirty linen being washed in public by both sides. We followed guidelines.

"Players play for clubs when ineligible all the time. In lower leagues, that results in points deductions, expulsion from competitions, transfer embargoes, pretty much any reasonable penalty. West Ham have essentially paid for Blatter's PA for a week, when the serious matter of ignoring FIFA rules has been largely ignored." - This, again, doesnt work in the argument. We've been kicked out of competitions before for playing ineligible players, but this of course is different. We didnt break any FA Cup rule, so it would be mighty funny to be kicked out of the competition. More important, you should be looking at why FIFA meted out such a pathetic fine. Do you think it might be cos they know we will appeal and Frak them? Do you think maybe they are appeasing a country where good old Blatter needs support very soon?

Also, we did allow them to assess him, so thats a lie. They chose not to. They trusted the very real medical information we provided. Which has only proven to be what we have abided by too. So, basically, a player played 30 mins on comeback from injury three weeks into the competition in Africa which he couldnt fly for.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Regardless of it all, I stand by what we've done. We played a player who had been unfit for three weeks who then returned to some level of fitness. Not only would we have viable right to question Senegal's medical care of him, he also shouldnt be flying. Very little way to get there without. We offered medical assessment and they didnt send anyone.

Far as I'm concerned it would be pathetic for us to have to sit there with a player who can play off the bench just because Senegal don't want to be at all amiable

[Azzy]

Ziggy, he was ineligible. By FIFA rules. In fact, the FIFA Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players - Annexe 1 - Article 1:

Clubs are obliged to release their registered players to the representative teams of the country for which the player is eligible to play on the basis of his nationality if they are called up by the association concerned. Any agreement between a player and a club to the contrary is prohibited.

Players must also be released for the period of preparation before the match, which is laid down as follows:

e) the final competition of an international tournament: 14 days before the first match in the competition.

A player who due to injury or illness is unable to comply with a call-up from the association that he is eligible to represent on the basis of his nationality shall, if the association so requires, agree to undergo a medical examination by a doctor of that association’s choice. If the
player so wishes, such medical examination shall take place on the territory of the association at which he is registered.

A player who has been called up by his association for one of its representative teams is, unless otherwise agreed by the relevant association, not entitled to play for the club with which he is registered during the period for which he has been released or should have been released pursuant to the provisions of this annexe. This restriction on playing for the club shall, moreover, be prolonged by fi ve days in the event that the player, for whatsoever reason, did not wish to or was
unable to comply with the call-up.

Article 6 is the beauty, the one they've ignored:

1. Violations of any of the provisions set forth in this annexe shall result in the imposition of disciplinary measures.
2. If a club refuses to release a player or neglects to do so despite the provisions of this annexe, the FIFA Players’ Status Committee shall furthermore request the association to which the club belongs to declare any match(es) in which the player took part to have been lost by the club concerned. Any points thus gained by the club in question shall be forfeited. Any match contested according to the cup system shall be regarded as having been won by the opposing team, irrespective of the score.

Irrefutable proof that West Ham should have been kicked out of the FA Cup. Fifa's own rules. In fact, no mention is made of financial sanctions at all.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

We didnt refuse to release the player

[Azzy]

No. You neglected to do so, despite the provision regarding injuries. And you played the player, despite the provision in Article 5.

It is funny how there is no mention of potential financial discipline, yet that's what you received. Fifa's lawyers must all be on skiing holidays.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

We offered medical examination, they said no.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

No. You neglected to do so, despite the provision regarding injuries. And you played the player, despite the provision in Article 5.

It is funny how there is no mention of potential financial discipline, yet that's what you received. Fifa's lawyers must all be on skiing holidays.

He couldnt fly. What are we gonna do?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Those rules would also state that no player can play for his club until after the ACON finishes, regardless of his sides qualification. It is also funny how a player like Schlupp, who by the way Ghana are waiting to open a case over, is going unnoticed. Certain sides get certain attention, and the media have got this little hard on over having a go at us ever since Tevez.

Also, the FIFA guidelines are handed down to the FA to control. The FA clearly don't want to throw us out. FIFA are clearly scared of us appealing and, quite easily, winning the case considering the overwhelming evidence we have to support us. Don't take us lightly, we obviously knew the rules.

My issue as ever is why do you think FIFA were particularly lenient. Why do you think Bristol City have been quiet, other than expressing "disappointment", and why do you think Senegal haven't made more of this?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Also, on article 5, he wasnt called into their final squad. So he wasn't actually called up. Basically, a player was injured for a good few weeks of a tournament, deemed unable to even make it out there (and you can say bullwoop all you want, but medical evidence is on our side so we won't lose that one) and recovered enough to play 30 mins of a game a few weeks later. Almost as if he wasnt fit, and then he was.

I honestly believe we'd have fought it and we'd have won. The FA don't want that, FIFA don't want that, Bristol City and West Brom don't want that.

The worst thing we've done in all of this is withdraw him from the squad against Liverpool. Suddenly we got a little political. We should have told them to Frak off cos we were not in the wrong.

[Azzy]

I find it very hard to believe that if his back injury was so severe in early January that he couldn't travel, that is miraculously healed enough for him to play 30mins.

Furthermore, if he could only be transported to Bristol by limo, what on earth were West Ham doing jeopardising his long-term health? For a cup game they should have walked?

Flying in a private jet is the comfiest and safest form of travel there is, and is far better for your back than being driven in a limo. The journey to Bristol is long, with speeding, braking, turning. A plane allows you to lie down, relax, sleep even, and doesn't judder you or brake suddenly. He could easily have been transported to Senegal.

Alternatively, Dennis Bergkamp used to be driven to European games. He went to Greece once. He just needed 48 hours and a change of driver.

Senegal were busy preparing for the tournament and couldn't let their medical team leave. If the injury was so severe, the player and the club owed Senegal that information as soon as it was known. Supposedly boxing day. But West Ham waited until the last possible moment, likely due to that injury sustained on his previous bout of international service.

I don't blame West Ham for not wanting him to go off, but they simply should not have played the player. Fifa agrees, hence the fine. But Fifa itself has failed to follow its own procedures. It's alarming.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I find it very hard to believe that if his back injury was so severe in early January that he couldn't travel, that is miraculously healed enough for him to play 30mins.

Furthermore, if he could only be transported to Bristol by limo, what on earth were West Ham doing jeopardising his long-term health? For a cup game they should have walked?

Flying in a private jet is the comfiest and safest form of travel there is, and is far better for your back than being driven in a limo. The journey to Bristol is long, with speeding, braking, turning. A plane allows you to lie down, relax, sleep even, and doesn't judder you or brake suddenly. He could easily have been transported to Senegal.

Alternatively, Dennis Bergkamp used to be driven to European games. He went to Greece once. He just needed 48 hours and a change of driver.

Senegal were busy preparing for the tournament and couldn't let their medical team leave. If the injury was so severe, the player and the club owed Senegal that information as soon as it was known. Supposedly boxing day. But West Ham waited until the last possible moment, likely due to that injury sustained on his previous bout of international service.

I don't blame West Ham for not wanting him to go off, but they simply should not have played the player. Fifa agrees, hence the fine. But Fifa itself has failed to follow its own procedures. It's alarming.

Actually it was severe in December when he was injured for a few games with it, and then later in the month when returning to the squad he reinjured the back because it was a deep issue.

I find it hard to believe they you understand cabin pressure and the effects on the back better than a doctor. Considering Senegal even accepted the information then I really doubt its drawn from nothing. He was, of course, taken to the game because medical advice suggested the limo would do him no harm, let alone the fact that the injury had had three weeks of rest to heal. Thus, we took him as a precautionary measure in case we needed a player from our squad. Alas, we did, it seems, although it is bloody hard to tell if we'd have scored or not. I'd imagine we'd have won the replay too, and unsurprisingly all the noise from Bristol since has been about compensation for money they would have gained from that replay and possibly playing at WBA.

The fact FIFA later specified in clarification that Article 6.2 of the regulations was not mentioned in the judgement because it did not apply means any threat of throwing him out doesnt come in to play. Which means they are not contesting that we refused to release him. The offence we have committed is not getting Senegal's permission to play the player once he returned to fitness. A frankly laughable rule and one that would never have worked fairly in the circumstances. Another reason I imagine that FIFA has washed their hands quickly. I would also imagine they do not want to worry about precedents we could bring up in a court of law, precedents which are numerous considering the amount of injuries suffered before friendlies.

On the private jet thing, obviously Senegal havent supplied such a thing. Maybe because the medical information said this wasnt a good idea. But you are privy to all the medical information so I shan't grumble.

They could let anyone appointed as their medical team leave. So a doctor attributed to their cause. Or they could have just released their medical staff considering the players dont arrive the minute call ups are made. Especially not before call ups are made, as is the case here.

What FIFA is saying here is that they believe he was injured and should not have been flying. Because that is where the line is for them and forfeiting games.

[Marky]

No. You neglected to do so, despite the provision regarding injuries. And you played the player, despite the provision in Article 5.

It is funny how there is no mention of potential financial discipline, yet that's what you received. Fifa's lawyers must all be on skiing holidays.

He couldnt fly. What are we gonna do?

Mr T never flew, so they drugged him and got him on a plane that way.

Just saying.

[compelling and rich]

more nonsense from the disciplinary world of football

Equatorial Guinea fined 65,000 for full blown riots! less than the fine on west ham

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Least they weren't all wearing paddy power pants

[Hammersmith harrier]

No idea who this clown is but going by the FIFA guidelines West Ham have done nothing wrong, this is an issue between Sakho and the Senegal FA. It also ignores that it is grossly against a persons human rights to try and force them to play for their national team.

[hampo17]

more nonsense from the disciplinary world of football

Equatorial Guinea fined 65,000 for full blown riots! less than the fine on west ham

How about banning Morocco from the next two ACN and fining them $10m because they were worried about Ebola reaching their country and backed out of hosting the tournament. Football is head scratching at times.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The African board are a baffling federation at the best of times

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Pulis gone 3 at the back? Very clever move if the midfield is smart with Downing; basically means that there's always a spare man when Sakho and Valencia split wide. Could be very fun if Downing gets free and we have 3 on 3 on the attack though

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Nope, Brunt is a left back. A lot of anger from West Ham fans that there's no delay; train delays and accidents on the road holding people up

[NickisBHAFC]

Robbie Savage is annoying me

[NickisBHAFC]

West Brom 2-0 West Ham. Wonder goal by James Morrison. 

Annoying really be nice for west ham to get far in the fa cupZ

[Dolphin Ziggler]

We've been awful. Pulis has played this wonderfully, proper ruined tactics with pace on the break and shots from midfield

[Guest]

Knew Pulis would tactically pull this off, brilliant. Actually think, if the draw is kind, we can get to the semi at least. Hammers getting Hammered

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Getting battered indeed, by simple stuff too. We're not on it and West Brom are playing deep with 9 behind then breaking out. Downing and Valencia are not on form and we could really do with Kouyate's legs in midfield against this.

[Stella]

2 vs 7, and 2 won. Great ball in to be fair.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Game over. We've been as bad as the ref. Sam to take a lot of the blame, basically hasn't been able to work out what to do against 10 defenders

[compelling and rich]

oh dear west ham going full strength for the fa cup doesn't seem to be workng

[Guest]

We're just showing WHU up to what they are. EASY, EASY, EASY! roll on the draw

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Really, Liam? Grow up.

[NickisBHAFC]

What an idiot. He's just let down his football club and all those west ham supporters. I would boo him next game if I was a west ham fan.

[Stella]

Years ago Allardyce put a weakened team out when he was managing Bolton, even though they were half way up the league. For that reason, I hope he never does well in this comp. Nothing against the hammers.

Red card. Raise your hand and you're off.

[Stella]

Nice goal.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Season over, sadly. Taking Song and Sakho off as basically a "we're done" really not on either.

[Guest]

4-0 SAIDO, SAIDO, SAIDO. Amalfitano lol! what an embarrassement from WHU. Pulis' & the boys march on!

[Guest]

To LiamB

[Stella]

I thought you were a man u fan, Liam?

The red was stupid, but when you're in the heat of the moment, and losing by three, the red mist sometimes flashes.

[Guest]

That's Liam, THIS one is LiamB.

It's basically Dolph's best friend.

[Stella]

That's Liam, THIS one is LiamB.

It's basically Dolph's best friend.

Aah, cheers.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

He's only come out as a West Brom fan since Pulis took over, was quiet before then. I'd rather support a team that doesn't look to put 10 behind the ball at home and basically accepts they're not technically any good. Let alone being out sung by West Ham fans who were cut in number with problems getting there whilst your awful lot can't even sell out a 5th round home cup game.

It's a shame we're out, we could have been a threat to the bigger sides. This lot won't be

[Fernando]

That's Liam, THIS one is LiamB.

It's basically Dolph's best friend.

The B is for  bell3nd

[Guest]

What? Am I not allowed to celebrate a fantastic win & display. Knew the Pulis appointment would do wonders, so many people talking nonsense about his negative tactics. I'd be more worried if I was a WHU, season could peter out now into nothing now. Can't wait for the draw, we'll see you in the hat....or maybe not

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