Aviva Premiership Round 10

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Fri 19th Dec
19:45        SALE SHARKS  v   EXETER CHIEFS AJ Bell Stadium BT Sport
The weekend opens with 6th hosting 3rd. In the last two rounds, Sale have had two good wins - both on the road. However any momentum they may have built will have dissipated following back to back defeats to Saracens in the ERCC. Meanwhile the Chiefs have been extending their winning run (last beaten mid October by Bayonne) in the Challenge Cup, managing to rest and rotate players. While Chiefs have a nice gap between them and Sarries/Tigers, you do feel that this is the kind of game that clubs with play-off ambitions have to be winning. Sale will not make it easy for them.

Sat 20th Dec
15:00        HARLEQUINS  v   NEWCASTLE FALCONS Twickenham Stoop
After some deeply disappointing performances in the AP, Quins fans will have been heartened by the two matches with Leinster. These games have however come at a cost with key players facing lengthy spells out. Falcons took some decent domestic form into the Challenge Cup and a mainly second string side performed really well against a more experienced Stade Francais team.  Whilst the table shows these two paired together at 9/10 Quins look to have too much class. However should they not perform close to their best, Falcons will make life very uncomfortable and could easily leave Twickenham with a win.

15:00        SARACENS  v   LONDON WELSH Allianz Park
Sarries started the season scoring tries for fun. Since the fantastic match with Clermont though, things have been more of a grind. Welsh are the ideal opponents for a team looking to rebuild their confidence.

15:15        NORTHAMPTON SAINTS  v   LEICESTER TIGERS Franklin's Gardens BT Sport
These have, in recent years, been magnificent, bruising and controversial matches. Saints are in the much better form, and are displaying both power and verve. Tigers set piece is going well, defence is much improved but have no attacking game. Should be an easy win for Saints - but I live in hope.

17:30        GLOUCESTER RUGBY  v   BATH RUGBY Kingsholm BT Sport
Glaws will be looking to return to winning ways against their local rivals, with HKC desperate to regain the crowing rights. While Bath look stronger on paper they have not looked the same team away from home. Mike Ford has some key decisions to make at 12, wing, FB and most importantly front row. Bath's reserve front row went really well during the AIs and outshone their more illustrious counterparts in the fixtures with Castres.

Sun 21st Dec
14:00       WASPS  v   LONDON IRISH Ricoh Arena BT Sport
Wasps first fixture in Coventry. 27k fans. Wasps in stunning form. Could be a classic.

Catterick has had a good game also. Mixing things up well.

Im concerned Walder will be getting kidnapped by England. In half a season he's changed our attacking game unbelievably.

We should be further ahead but keep messing up when it counts. I can't recall Quins being in our 22 more than once??

Poor Marland Yarde has had a hard day at the office. But hes made some good tackles on big Alex.

Yeah this is the similarity with England. I rant because England are not clinical but we are very similar.

However at the moment i'm not complaining....we have come a long way this season in particular...we are showing some real progression and consistency now. Teams will need to play to a good level to beat us now.

Small steps and little improvements....COYF!!!

Ill be disappointed if we don't get a win here now.

Quins really coming in to it now.

I can't believe we're losing!

I know, we should be clear.

Come on tigers!

Anyone know how long left?

Feck

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What for?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/video-dylan-hartley-sent-off-for-an-ugly-elbow-on-matt-smith-30852389.html

Scroll down the article for the video

Well fair play to quins for coming back but we should not have lost that game.

Ugly elbow? That's Love sacks.

Cant get the link

nathan wrote:Come on tigers!

Anyone know how long left?

Tigers just got a try to go head. 9 mins left.

What's the score now?

16-19 to Leicester

5 mins left, Saints lineout just outside Tigers 22

Eek, this is hurting not being able to listen or watch!

Penalty to Saints at the Tigers 5m

Went for lineout

Try saints. 3 mins left. Conversion to come. 21-19

Nailed it, 23-19 big big kick, 4 point lead

That's it then

Game over 21-19. Saints were pretty good. Leicester dominated the scrum but little else. If not the red the result probably would have been as expect. Burrell MOTM and he was pretty good. Saints kicking wasn't great, missed about 7 points but all out wide.

Great stuff. Great game and well done Northampton.
Clearly, the English Aviva has the va-va-voom that the Pro12 hasn't.

I wish we hadn't played Toulon twice before this game esp having the last one at Mayol.

 Saints were very good Leicester poor.

 But we are still improving in certain areas.

 Next weekend we need to aimed to destroy Sale.

 Esp in the forwards.

The Tigers/Saints game was a cracker!

Probably not so good if you're a Tigers fan, but Saints have so much belief. Really good to see Burrell put in a fine performance.

Welly wrote:I wish we hadn't played Toulon twice before this game esp having the last one at Mayol.

 Saints were very good Leicester poor.

 But we are still improving in certain areas.

 Next weekend we need to aimed to destroy Sale.

 Esp in the forwards.

I think you make a very good point.  Saints had two matches against Treviso whilst Leicester had two against Toulon.  These matches are always amongst the toughest and most physical affairs.  Playing a club like Toulon beforehand can only make it worse.

No mention of the bath game yet, which is surprising giving it was our record ever win at the shed. Seemed completely in control and never in doubt.

Caught a bit Bathite, was a real stodgy affair. Gloucester scrum took a right smashing from the parts I saw.

Yeah was a really turgid game but we dominated up front and laid the platform for late one

In 10 matches London Welsh have now conceded 69 tries - two more than in the entire 2012/13 season. Meanwhile you have to go back to the 2008/9 season to find a team that conceded more than this in an entire season (Bristol 77). Only once has a team been winless (Rotherham 2003/4 who gained 3 LBPs, conceding 90 tries). Bedford conceded the most tries in a 22 match season (102 in 1999/2000) while the year before West Hartlepool conceded 134 in a 26 match season.

It will be interesting to see what records Welsh can break.

Just watching Wasps v Irish. Good to see the stadium looking like there's a fair few in there although there's quite a few empty seats - to be expected I guess. The pitch is tearing up at scrum time but I believe there are plans to relay it anyway. Was interested to hear that they had to raise the height of the ceilings leading to the pitch to accommodate the rugby players! 6-7 at the moment with local boy Goode getting the first points.

unable to watch, but see score is currently 43-16, without a TBP. Amazed that with 8 penalty goals and 19 penalties in total conceded that LI have had just one YC.

And Wasps secure the TBP right at the end it seems.

Wonder if Brian Smith will make it till the end of the season, or if Declan Kidney will start early?

Irish looked pretty dire, the sooner Smith goes the better maybe?

I watched the Wasps game at a pub. Pretty even 1st half with both teams showing good handling. Wasps just blew Irish away in the 2nd half, with power up front and pace behind. Plus it was an unusually solid defensive display from us.

A good start to the Coventry era




Commiserations Ozzie, Sir Burger et all.

Congratulations to CovLad Andy Goode with the record points tally in one Premiership Game a 33 point haul.
A great story and one of a couple of records broken at the match today.

LondonTiger wrote:In 10 matches London Welsh have now conceded 69 tries - two more than in the entire 2012/13 season. Meanwhile you have to go back to the 2008/9 season to find a team that conceded more than this in an entire season (Bristol 77). Only once has a team been winless (Rotherham 2003/4 who gained 3 LBPs, conceding 90 tries). Bedford conceded the most tries in a 22 match season (102 in 1999/2000) while the year before West Hartlepool conceded 134 in a 26 match season.

It will be interesting to see what records Welsh can break.

It's really sad, but the numbers for London Welsh continue to get worse. Are they on target to be the worst professional Rugby side of all time? I wonder how they will survive this relegation. If nothing else this really illustrates the huge difference between the Championship and the Premiership.

Doc - there's a bigger step up from National 1 (amateur/semi-pro) to the Championship. But the RFU and PRL's attitude towards the 2nd tier needs to be sorted.

Low funding for the promoted team, different medical and safety protocols etc. If the RFU want a pro 2nd tier it needs funding and to be put on a similar footing to the Premiership.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Doc - there's a bigger step up from National 1 (amateur/semi-pro) to the Championship. But the RFU and PRL's attitude towards the 2nd tier needs to be sorted.

Low funding for the promoted team, different medical and safety protocols etc. If the RFU want a pro 2nd tier it needs funding and to be put on a similar footing to the Premiership.

My original point was about the level/quality of play between the Championship and Premiership because London Welsh are basically a Championship level club with a few seasoned professionals in the mix.

However, I didn't know there were different medical and safety protocols. I agree that doesn't make sense by any measure if they are serious about a real professional second tier. I think the funding differences for newly promoted clubs has also never made sense. It certainly doesn't help clubs survive. I understand the concept of parachute payments, so why do the promoted clubs have to fight for money?

It's funny - sometimes I believe that certain clubs use the alleged disparity in salaries to make an excuse for performing poorly and being badly coached.

Of course London Welsh have a lower wage bill and less advantages than the other sides in the AP but let's not forget that they scrapped most of the players who won them promotion in the first place.

When you have a lack of cohesion,lack of direction and motivation it's not a surprise to see a team performing poorly.

In contrast I would say that the current top three are there because they have the cohesion,direction,motivation and successful gameplans in place.

Bath have become a well oiled machine, their wasn't much flair in their match vs Gloucester but it was very effective indeed.

Saints lost a man early on to Leicester but stuck to their incisive style of play and reaped the rewards. Backs and forwards linked well together in a relentless wave of attacks on Leicester. Leicester scored 3 tries but Saints were on top for most of the game with 14 men.

It would be no surprise to see a Saints vs Bath final as of now.

The likes of Leicester,Quins and Saracens look a little lost at the moment - they've seemed to have lost their shape and cohesion.

Leicester seem to lack the bite that they used to have both in defence and attack, Saracens are no longer defensively fierce, ponderously predictable and their frontrow has been relentlessly targeted in recent weeks, Quins can't claim to play the supposed Quins way with their woeful try count and lack of potent attacking threat.


Will be interesting to see if these 3 sides in particular can up their game to challenge Bath and Saints.


Wasps have also impressed me this season though I am not sure they have the strength in depth when we get to the latter end of the season.

Doc - below is an article from TRP. Read the last para. Day has been very vocal on the alarming difference in the concussion protocols...

Tier two players must be ‘part of the union’ – Christian Day

Plans to provide Championship players with full trade union support could become a reality in 2016, according to Rugby Players’ Association chairman Christian Day, who has branded current conditions relating to tier two players “a mess”. The RPA provide Premiership players with a range of services relating to matters such as contracts, insurance, severance arrangements and post-rugby career development – a facility currently unavailable to the Championship’s 450 professionals.

Funding is the main issue, with many second tier clubs either unable or unwilling to stump up for the additional manpower the RPA require to provide adequate services, but the RFU are being lobbied hard and Day hopes a resolution can quickly be found. He told The Rugby Paper: “The issue with the Championship is you’ve got a number of clubs who have been doing their own thing. Some are incredibly professional – like Bristol and Worcester who are very well funded – but at the other end of the scale you’ve got clubs who are just happy being in the Championship and who produce good players, but they just don’t have the financial ability to take things to the next level on or off the field.

“The RPA are looking at expanding to bring in the Championship players but there are many differing levels of clubs within the league when it comes to things like contracts, insurance and player welfare – and, if we’re honest, it’s just a mess. “There’s no uniformity throughout the league, which in the Premiership you do have with standard contracts and regulations. It’s something we want to happen but the Championship is a completely different animal because of its lack of regulations. ”Day feels sympathy for the players, adding: “The standard of players is not an issue because you see how many guys come through from the Championship to play in the Premiership and represent England. It’s the building blocks within the clubs that need putting in place to take the next step towards reaching Premiership standard. “This issue is very much on our agenda and the aim is for the RPA to be looking after Championship players from 2016.

”Meanwhile, The Rugby Paper understands Championship concussion protocols could be aligned to those of the Premiership before the end of this season. Tier two clubs are currently unable to temporarily replace players with head knocks for 10 minutes while pitchside concussion assessments are carried out – a situation Day lambasted in TRP a fortnight ago as being “stupid”. The matter is set to be discussed by the Professional Game Board before Christmas with a view to rolling out education programmes for club medical staff.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Doc - below is an article from TRP. Read the last para. Day has been very vocal on the alarming difference in the concussion protocols...

Tier two players must be ‘part of the union’ – Christian Day

Plans to provide Championship players with full trade union support could become a reality in 2016, according to Rugby Players’ Association chairman Christian Day, who has branded current conditions relating to tier two players “a mess”. The RPA provide Premiership players with a range of services relating to matters such as contracts, insurance, severance arrangements and post-rugby career development – a facility currently unavailable to the Championship’s 450 professionals.

Funding is the main issue, with many second tier clubs either unable or unwilling to stump up for the additional manpower the RPA require to provide adequate services, but the RFU are being lobbied hard and Day hopes a resolution can quickly be found. He told The Rugby Paper: “The issue with the Championship is you’ve got a number of clubs who have been doing their own thing. Some are incredibly professional – like Bristol and Worcester who are very well funded – but at the other end of the scale you’ve got clubs who are just happy being in the Championship and who produce good players, but they just don’t have the financial ability to take things to the next level on or off the field.

“The RPA are looking at expanding to bring in the Championship players but there are many differing levels of clubs within the league when it comes to things like contracts, insurance and player welfare – and, if we’re honest, it’s just a mess. “There’s no uniformity throughout the league, which in the Premiership you do have with standard contracts and regulations. It’s something we want to happen but the Championship is a completely different animal because of its lack of regulations. ”Day feels sympathy for the players, adding: “The standard of players is not an issue because you see how many guys come through from the Championship to play in the Premiership and represent England. It’s the building blocks within the clubs that need putting in place to take the next step towards reaching Premiership standard. “This issue is very much on our agenda and the aim is for the RPA to be looking after Championship players from 2016.

”Meanwhile, The Rugby Paper understands Championship concussion protocols could be aligned to those of the Premiership before the end of this season. Tier two clubs are currently unable to temporarily replace players with head knocks for 10 minutes while pitchside concussion assessments are carried out – a situation Day lambasted in TRP a fortnight ago as being “stupid”. The matter is set to be discussed by the Professional Game Board before Christmas with a view to rolling out education programmes for club medical staff.

I have never been convinced by the concussion assessments. You see a player hit on the head and staggering about. They then go off for ten minutes to be assessed and then come back. If a player has received a blow to the head they should go off and stay off. The fact that they go off for ten minutes means concussion is suspected. That should be the end of their match.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Doc - below is an article from TRP. Read the last para. Day has been very vocal on the alarming difference in the concussion protocols...

Tier two players must be ‘part of the union’ – Christian Day

Plans to provide Championship players with full trade union support could become a reality in 2016, according to Rugby Players’ Association chairman Christian Day, who has branded current conditions relating to tier two players “a mess”. The RPA provide Premiership players with a range of services relating to matters such as contracts, insurance, severance arrangements and post-rugby career development – a facility currently unavailable to the Championship’s 450 professionals.

Funding is the main issue, with many second tier clubs either unable or unwilling to stump up for the additional manpower the RPA require to provide adequate services, but the RFU are being lobbied hard and Day hopes a resolution can quickly be found. He told The Rugby Paper: “The issue with the Championship is you’ve got a number of clubs who have been doing their own thing. Some are incredibly professional – like Bristol and Worcester who are very well funded – but at the other end of the scale you’ve got clubs who are just happy being in the Championship and who produce good players, but they just don’t have the financial ability to take things to the next level on or off the field.

“The RPA are looking at expanding to bring in the Championship players but there are many differing levels of clubs within the league when it comes to things like contracts, insurance and player welfare – and, if we’re honest, it’s just a mess. “There’s no uniformity throughout the league, which in the Premiership you do have with standard contracts and regulations. It’s something we want to happen but the Championship is a completely different animal because of its lack of regulations. ”Day feels sympathy for the players, adding: “The standard of players is not an issue because you see how many guys come through from the Championship to play in the Premiership and represent England. It’s the building blocks within the clubs that need putting in place to take the next step towards reaching Premiership standard. “This issue is very much on our agenda and the aim is for the RPA to be looking after Championship players from 2016.

”Meanwhile, The Rugby Paper understands Championship concussion protocols could be aligned to those of the Premiership before the end of this season. Tier two clubs are currently unable to temporarily replace players with head knocks for 10 minutes while pitchside concussion assessments are carried out – a situation Day lambasted in TRP a fortnight ago as being “stupid”. The matter is set to be discussed by the Professional Game Board before Christmas with a view to rolling out education programmes for club medical staff.

Hound, thanks for this.  I know the contracts are not standardised across the league, but not aware there were apparently no minimum criteria, especially for medical support and player welfare.  Christian Day has been vocal on the issue of player welfare for a while, and I think he is right in most instances.   He is a bright guy who sees the bigger picture.  

It was the RFU and Premiership who want the Championship to be elevated to being a fully professional league.  This will clearly take time, but inconsistent standards must be cleaned up first. I think one point this discussion makes is that it is hard to change from semi-pro to fully pro. There is so much which goes into it.

Exiled - I agree with that. Any blow to the head that means that a player needs to leave the field should signal the end of their game.


Leicester are to be applauded for their handling of Geoff Parking

Doc - I couldn't find the article where Day really makes his point about the concussion protocols.

just watching the saints v tigers game. how many knock ons were missed in the build ups to tries!

That's the spirit Nathan, never too late for a moan at the ref

As for the Quins Falcons game, there was a bit of talk before hand that Quins would suffer a comedown after two massive European games, it certainly seemed like that was the case.

But fair play to Falcons as well, they came out and attacked us right from the start, I saw on twitter that both Falcons wings made more yards in that game then any other player in the Prem. If they'd just managed to finish off a few of those chances then they'd have been well clear of Harlequins.

Harlequins at the moment look a little lost, we're stuck between knowing we should go back to our old gameplan of hard running and lots of close in offloads, but don't have the players to be able to accomplish that right now. Unfortunately the other option we implement, long looping passes far behind the gainline, just sets us up to be smashed back and lose ground. I fear the next game against Saints could go very badly wrong if our pack can't play out of their skins.

yappysnap wrote:That's the spirit Nathan, never too late for a moan at the ref

As for the Quins Falcons game, there was a bit of talk before hand that Quins would suffer a comedown after two massive European games, it certainly seemed like that was the case.

But fair play to Falcons as well, they came out and attacked us right from the start, I saw on twitter that both Falcons wings made more yards in that game then any other player in the Prem. If they'd just managed to finish off a few of those chances then they'd have been well clear of Harlequins.

Harlequins at the moment look a little lost, we're stuck between knowing we should go back to our old gameplan of hard running and lots of close in offloads, but don't have the players to be able to accomplish that right now. Unfortunately the other option we implement, long looping passes far behind the gainline, just sets us up to be smashed back and lose ground. I fear the next game against Saints could go very badly wrong if our pack can't play out of their skins.

Haha, to be fair I didn't say which side it was against though

Touche

When are Manu and Mulipola back? Can't help but think you guys really miss those two.

January. We are missing Manu hugely in the bigger games. Allen has been slow returning to a semblance of form as well. To be honest I think Ed Slater is the biggest loss, we all knew he carried us with his huge work rate last season but are now only realising how much. Currently we just look under cooked at the moment.

There's some positive signs with Cole and Tom Youngs back and firing. Not enough in the big games though.