50 Greatest Rugby players of the modern game

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This from an article by Simon Thomas.

50. Scott Quinnell (WAL)

After a short spell in league, the man from the famous rugby family returned to Union when the game went open. One of the most effective ball-carrying No 8s in the world, he was like a one-man pack for Wales at times.

49. Yannick Jauzion (FRA)

You just couldn’t bring him down! The elegant Toulouse centre had a unique ability to stand up in the tackle and deliver a killer off-load. A sharp rugby brain as well. Pure class.

48. Carl Hayman (NZ)

We just hadn’t seen a tight-head prop like him before. At 6ft 4ins and 18st 13lbs, the Otago powerhouse was a man mountain in the All Blacks pack ahead of a lucrative move to Europe.

47. Mils Muliaina (NZ)

A wonderful counter-attacking full-back. Such a silky balanced runner and hardly ever made a mistake. One of an elite group to have appeared in 100 Tests for New Zealand.

46. Gary Teichmann (SA)

An inspirational No 8, he captained South Africa to a record 17 Test winning streak before launching the Bok and Amber revolution at Newport.

45. Martyn Williams (WAL)

Mr Consistency. Man of the Match time and again for club and country. A footballing openside flanker, this Wales centurion went on three Lions tours.

44. Rob Howley (WAL)

Shone brightly despite spending much of Test career behind a beaten Welsh pack. Confirmed status as a world class scrum-half with the Lions and won Wasps the Heineken Cup.

43. Ma'a Nonu (NZ)

Known initially more for his braided hair and eyeliner, the man from Wellington has added passing and kicking to his raw line-breaking power to become one of the great centres.

42. Bakkies Botha (SA)

The second row enforcer in South Africa’s World Cup winning team of 2007, he retired from international rugby this year. You simply didn't mess with Bakkies!

41. Will Greenwood (ENG)

A tall, stylish centre who had a particular penchant for scoring tries against Wales. Two Lions tours, but his finest hour was lifting the World Cup with England in 2003.

40. Thierry Dusautoir (FRA)

Produced one of the most incredible individual performance of modern times when he made an eye-popping 38 tackles and scored a try in France’s 2007 World Cup win over New Zealand. World player of year in 2011.

39. Tana Umaga (NZ)

A great reader of the game, the Hurricanes centre was the focal point of the New Zealand back-line for years and a hugely successful skipper, winning 19 out of 21 games at the helm, including a Lions clean-sweep.

38. Jean de Villiers (SA)

Can fulfil the role of the hard-running centre as well as do all the pretty stuff. Recognised as the king of interception, he has scored 25 Test tries in all, and has gone on to become a fine leader of South Africa. Suffered a horror injury against Wales this sutumn that could rule him out of next year's World Cup.

37. Conrad Smith (NZ)

Nicknamed The Snake because of his ability to slither through the smallest of gaps and strike with a sudden burst of speed. Brings fluidity to the All Blacks midfield with his intelligent passing and vision.

36. Augustin Pichot (ARG)

A pivotal figure in the emergence of Argentina as a major force in the game, the much travelled scrum-half captained the Pumas to their breakthrough third place finish in the 2007 World Cup. Such a livewire.

35. Adam Jones (WAL)

His record speaks for itself. The scrum cornerstone of three Grand Slam winning teams and the Test tight-head on two Lions tours. A true legend of Welsh rugby even if he doesn't make the World Cup squad.

34. Schalk Burger (SA)

One of the most physical flankers in the game, he was dubbed a “threshing machine” by former Springboks coach Nick Mallett.

33. Joe Rokocoko (NZ)

The former All Blacks winger boasts a remarkable strike rate, having scored 47 tries in 68 Tests. When you’ve got speed and strength, you’ve always got a chance and the Fijian-born flier had both in bucketloads.

32. Stephen Larkham (AUS)

A converted full-back, the elegant Larkham proved a worthy successor to Michael Lynagh as the Wallaby No 10. Pulled the strings to great effect during Australia’s 1999 World Cup winning campaign.

31. Fourie du Preez (SA)

Any aspiring scrum-half should watch this man in action. A master tactician, with a great kicking game, he was the lynchpin of the South African team that won the World Cup and defeated the Lions.

30. Juan-Martin Fernandez-Lobbe (ARG)

Look for the ball and the Pumas back rower is certain to be somewhere in the vicinity. He’s either scrabbling for it on the deck, leaping to pluck it out of the air, fielding it deep in his own half or carrying it on the charge.

29. Justin Marshall (NZ)

Some players talk the talk, some walk the walk. Justin Marshall could do both. Backed up his chirping by running the show for the All Blacks in an 81-cap Test career ahead of a high-profile spell with the Ospreys.

28. Matt Giteau (AUS)

Blessed with huge natural ability, he was able to turn his hand to scrum-half, fly-half and centre and prove a devastating in each position. Having won 92 caps with Australia, he has been on the Toulon trophy trail of late.

27. Will Genia (AUS)

One of those special players who can win a game single-handedly, either with his own sniping breaks or by putting others into space. A pocket dynamo, on his day the Wallaby scrum-half is pound for pound one of the strongest players in world rugby.

26. Scott Gibbs (WAL)

Responsible for one of the great moments in Welsh rugby history, with that Wembley try against England in 1999, and a similarly seminal Lions image with his dumping of Os du Randt two years earlier. A wrecking ball centre.

25. Richard Hill (ENG)

The ultimate players’ player. Did all the unseen, grafting work and just got on with his job in unassuming fashion, putting his body on the line. Able to excel right across the back row, he was a pivotal figure on two Lions trips and an England World Cup winner.

24. Gethin Jenkins (WAL)

Has revolutionised the role of the loose-head prop. Like an extra back row player with his ability over the ball and his defensive work-rate. As with fellow front rower, Adam Jones, the medal haul says it all.

23. Doug Howlett (NZ)

A star sprinter as a schoolboy, he once clocked a personal best of 10.94 seconds for 100 metres. Used his speed to great effect in his rugby career, scoring a record 49 tries for the All Blacks. Also known as a winger with a high work rate and strong defensive ability, Howlett went on to become a firm favourite with Munster, lifting the Heineken Cup.

22. Christian Cullen (NZ)

Just about the most exciting player in the world game for a few years in the late 1990s. Nicknamed the Paekakariki Express, he had a remarkable strike rate, scoring 46 tries in just 58 Tests for New Zealand, with his elusive running and pace from full-back simply ripping sides apart.

21. Lawrence Dallaglio (ENG)

Went from being a schoolboy chorister to one of the most formidable physical presences in the game of rugby. Had it all in his prime - pace, power, aggression, pride and a steely, winning mind-set.

20. George Smith (AUS)

The scourge of the Lions at the age of 20 and more than 100 caps to his name for the Wallabies before he was 30. An absolute pest and nuisance at the breakdown, he made a living out of slowing down or stealing opposition ball, while he could also be highly effective as an attacking flanking force.

19. John Smit (SA)

One of the great captains of the professional era. Led South Africa a record 83 times in 111 Tests, guiding them to victory at the 2007 World Cup, a series triumph over the Lions in 2009 and two Tri-Nations titles. A teak hard performer in his own right, mainly at hooker, but also at prop. A warrior.

18. Jason Robinson (ENG)

Known as Billy Whizz, this former rugby league star proved a hugely successful convert to Union. A lethal runner from full-back or wing, he was a nightmare to mark in one-on-one situations. Had a knack of scoring memorable tries on the biggest stages of all, for England and the Lions.

17. Zinzan Brooke (NZ)

A dynamic ball carrier, this Kiwi No 8 also had better kicking and handling skills than some fly-halves. Heaped the ultimate indignity on England in the 1995 World Cup semi-final, landing an audacious drop goal from 40 metres after they had already been demolished by four-try Jonah Lomu.

16. Percy Montgomery (SA)

His Test days appeared to be over when he joined Newport in 2002, but the move actually re-ignited his international career and he went on to be the top points scorer at the 2007 World Cup, excelling at full-back as South Africa took the trophy. Ended up with a century of caps. Blond style!

15. Paul O'Connell (IRE)

Munster fans will tell you that Superman wears Paul O’Connell pyjamas! The Irish lock certainly has special rugby powers having been one of the world’s leading tight forwards for more than a decade. A three-times Lions who captained the tour of South Africa in 2009.

14. George Gregan (AUS)

A talkative figure on the field, was responsible for one of the great on-field jibes, taunting the All Blacks with the words “Four more years” during the dying moments of Australia’s 2003 World Cup semi-final victory. Born in Zambia, this complete scrum-half won a whopping 139 caps.

13. Victor Matfield (SA)

Dubbed the best centre in South Africa for his love of running with the ball in midfield, this ultra athletic second row has come out of retirement and looks as good as ever.

12. Bryan Habana (SA)

Anyone who races cheetahs in his spare time is likely to be reasonably rapid and the South African speedster has scorched his way to 53 Test tries, including a record-equalling eight to help the ‘Boks win the 2007 World Cup.

11. Martin Johnson (ENG)

A player who led by example and the kind of man you would always want alongside you in the trenches when the chips are down. Would never ask someone to do something he wouldn’t himself. Holds the unique distinction of having captained the Lions on two tours, including the triumphant 1997 trip to South Africa, while he will ever be remembered as the man who was presented with the 2003 World Cup, which England won in Sydney.

As well as being an inspirational leader, the Leicester lock was also a formidable player in his own right. Never a man to mess with, he was a rock like presence in the tight, whose rugby motto was if in doubt, go forward.

10. Jonny Wilkinson (ENG)

In some ways, you could argue Wilkinson has been the epitome of the professional era. He has set new standards in terms of dedication and an almost obsessive pursuit of perfection. He’s also been one of the great match winners of the era and one of the game’s greatest ever accumulators of points. In fact, only Dan Carter has scored more in Test rugby, with Wilkinson having garnered 1,246 during his 97 caps for England and the Lions. His finest hour, of course, came in 2003, when he slotted the drop goal that won the World Cup. The fact he landed it with his weaker right foot speaks volumes for his hours and hours of diligent practice. Bowed out this year having earned two more trophies with Toulon.

9. John Eales (AUS)

Nicknamed “Nobody” because “Nobody’s perfect” and his record is certainly pretty close to perfection. One of a select band of players to have won two World Cups, skippering Australia to glory in Cardiff in 1999. Captained the Wallabies 55 times during his 86-cap Test career, establishing himself as one of the most respected figures in the game. He was also very much a one of a kind as a player. It’s hard to believe now, but he scored 173 points in international rugby. An agile, athletic second row lineout ace, he was also a top-class place-kicker, who landed 65 Test shots at goal. A real ambassador for the game and a great player.

8. Shane Williams (WAL)

Everyone remembers his side-stepping magic and wing wizardry, but it’s easy to forget just how hard Shane Williams worked in order to be able to hold his own physically on the international stage. Having burst onto the scene in exciting fashion, he spent two years in the Test wilderness amid concerns over his size. But having grabbed his chance at the 2003 World Cup, he worked diligently to complement his God-given ability by working on his physique, emerging as the greatest Welsh player of his generation. Named world player of the year in 2008, he ended up with 60 Test tries, leaving him third on the all-time list behind behind Daisuke Ohata and David Campese.

He was The Great Entertainer.

7. Tim Horan (AUS)

When he made his Test debut for Australia against New Zealand in 1989, he impressed his opposite number, Joe Stanley, so much that Stanley gave him his jersey. The Kiwi knew talent when he saw it.

After emerging as one of the young stars of the 1991 World Cup, Horan returned from a horrendous knee injury to be player of the tournament eight years later as he lifted the Webb Ellis trophy for a second time.

Possessed pace, balance, great ball skills and courage, with his attacking prowess, formidable defence and play-making ability marking him out as one of the finest centres the game of rugby has ever seen. Scored 40 Test tries at a rate of one every other game.

6. Sergio Parisse (ITA)

There’s no such thing as a one-man team in rugby, but it’s got pretty close to that with Italy at times over the past decade. That one man, of course, is their talismanic skipper Sergio Parisse. The Argentinian-born No 8 has been a key figure for the Azzurri since making an eye-catching debut as an 18-year-old against New Zealand in 2002..

Big and strong, he has the size to make holes in any defence, but he also has hands to die for and the subtlety to execute passes out of the back of his hand as though he were a fly-half. Add to that an astute brain for the game and an absolute refusal to bend the knee and you have pretty much the complete rugby player.

5. Joost van der Westhuizen (SA)

One of the game’s great competitors on the field, the former Springboks scrum-half has carried that attitude into his off-field battles since hanging up his boots.

You only have to watch the legendary Living With Lions video from the South African tour of 1997 to understand just how highly he was rated by the opposition and what a threat he was seen as.

Aggressive and fearless, he was one of the finest running scrum-halves the game has ever seen, scoring 38 tries in 89 Tests, a remarkable tally for a No 9. Despite standing 6ft 1ins tall, he was able to find and penetrate the tiniest gaps in opposing defences.

An inspirational force as a player, he has inspired people once again in recent years with his fight against motor neurone disease.

4. Jonah Lomu (NZ)

Has one man ever done more to popularise the game of rugby than Jonah? When he burst onto the scene at the 1995 World Cup, it was like a meteor landing from outer space. We had never seen anything like him before and his incredible feats grabbed the attention of folk who had never previously been interested in the sport. The physical impact Lomu had on the 1995 World Cup was beyond the effect of any other player in the history of the game.

He scored seven tries in 1995, including four in an unforgettable one-man demolition job of England in the semi.

Lomu went one better in 1999 to finish with a record 15 tournament tries, enjoyed a stint with the Cardiff Blues before showing his dignity with his brave fight against a debilitating kidney problem. One of a kind.

3. Brian O'Driscoll (IRE)

We may never see the likes of BOD again.

One of the most feared players in the game, O’Driscoll has also been one of the most consistent since bursting onto the international stage over a decade ago.

His 141 Test caps, including eight for the Lions, make him the most experienced international ever.

The all-time Irish record try scorer with 46, O’Driscoll also led his country more times than any other player and his brilliant defensive qualities and dazzling attacking skills made him a threat all over the field.

Has provided some magical memories with his hat-trick against France in Paris in 2000 and his wonderful solo try for the Lions against Australia in Brisbane the following year which evokes memories of the ‘Waltzing O’Driscoll’ song that epitomised the 2001 tour.

Also evoked controversy, most notably, Warren Gatland’s decision to leave him out of the final Lions Test in Sydney last summer. But BOD deserves to be remembered for what he was. One on the best.

2. Dan Carter (NZ)

Dan the man. He challenged for number one spot in our top 50 list, but was just edged into second place.

Runners-up position isn’t bad, though, for a player who has undoubtedly established himself as the greatest fly-half of the professional era.

Carter’s record speaks for itself. One hundred caps for New Zealand, a world Test record of 1,440 points.

Throw in a further 1547 points for the Crusaders and his impact on the game cannot be emphasised enough.

A prolific goal-kicker, a wonderful silky runner from 10 at his best, a masterful controller of matches at the very highest level.

Carter possesses the lot and has been unstoppable, a genuine match-winner.

The mercurial fly-half maestro made his international debut against Wales in Hamilton at the age of 21, although that night he played inside centre.

He quickly gave a sign of what was to come by scoring 20 points and to this day still regards that as his finest moment in rugby.

It was also against Wales in 2010, when he kicked a penalty from halfway at the Millennium Stadium, that Carter overtook Jonny WIlkinson as the world’s top point scorer.

Wilkinson momentarily took the record back in an England game against France, but Carter reclaimed it when playing against South Africa.

He averages almost 15 points a Test, the highest of any player in history who has scored more than 500 points.

One of his greatest performances came against Sir Clive Woodward’s Lions in 2005, when he completely outshone Jonny Wilkinson in their fly-half battle to lead New Zealand to an emphatic 48-18 triumph.

Carter scored two tries, five penalties, and four conversions and ended the match with33 points ... easily eclipsing the previous record of 18.

He is the greatest back of the professional era.

1. Richie McCaw (NZ)

You only have to look at the 49 names below Richie McCaw on this list to recognise what a legend the All Blacks captain has proved over the last decade or more.

The years are creeping up on the New Zealand openside but he remains one of the best No. 7s the world has ever seen.

If not the best. His work at the breakdown is so important to the way this All Blacks side plays.

When he forces turnovers, his teammates have the ability to turn them into points in the blink of an eye. Brave, athletic, quite outstanding exponent at the breakdown.

He’s big enough to take the boshes and the bashes around the breakdown, lithe and quick and skillful enough to link with any of the thousand sets of breathtaking backs the men in black might care to put out.

Lifting the 2011 World Cup in his backyard was a fitting tribute to one of the greatest All Blacks in history. It would have also been a fitting finale because the great man has nothing left to prove.

But he soldiers on and will win his 125th cap against England today having won 110 Test matches as an All Black.

In early 2013, McCaw took the option to sit out the early part of the Super XV to allow his 32-year-old body a break after a gruelling 2012. He came back for the play-offs and the start of the international season rejuvenated.

Injuries saw him play intermittently during the Rugby Championship, but his role in this All Blacks team was underlined by the haste with which Steve Hansen hurried him back to face the Springboks in that wonderful deciding Test in Johannesburg, where McCaw was outstanding.

As a captain, his cool head pervades throughout his team, and there is no one better at holding a conversation with the referee than McCaw. Kieran Read may be ready to take on the captaincy, but McCaw could have set an impossibly high bar.

The world’s best? We reckon so.

For me Wallace's big strength was his pace. This enabled him to get to breakdowns early and also to act as an 8th back in attack. He was a decent tackler and good over the ball, but his pace is what really made him stand out. Williams and Back were more your classic link players, popping up and making passes, plus both were pests at the breakdown. You never really wanted them running with ball in hand or carrying into contact - there were better players in their respective sides in that regard. Wallace was better ball in hand.

Frankly put we are talking about 3 excellent openside flankers who would walk into their current sides at present (with SOB moving to 6 in an Ireland jersey). I genuinely think they are hard to split, and some silly panel nomination does not change my view on that.

Still, if Os du Randt isn't in the top 50, then Wallace (and Back) aren't the worst omissions.

I also wish I could be arguing for a Scottish candidate, but our best players of the modern era are probably Tom Smith, Scott Murray, Jason White, Gregor Townsend and Alan Tait. Smith probably at the head of that list, but no credible case can be made sadly for inclusion in a top 50.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I also wish I could be arguing for a Scottish candidate, but our best players of the modern era are probably Tom Smith, Scott Murray, Jason White, Gregor Townsend and Alan Tait. Smith probably at the head of that list, but no credible case can be made sadly for inclusion in a top 50.

There's a new golden generation emerging though. Things look very promising for Scotland.

Brad Thorn and Neil Back should be there. Joe Roff? Definitely some odd choices in there.

Top 3 look good but would have Jonny Wilkinson higher.

Possibly would have drico above Carter given Carters decline over the past few seasons.

Hmmm, I think BOD over Carter would be pretty controversial. Although BOD developed his game towards the end of his career, he certainly wasn't as good as in his attacking prime either.

102 NZ caps and records point scorer of all time. I think the better debate is whether Carter or McCaw should be number 1. BOD at 3 is right for me.

Well BOD is the most capped player of all time with over 80 of those caps as captain. 39 more caps than DC (that's a lot). He is also the highest scoring centre of all time by a good bit. It wouldn't be too controversial but I reckon DC in 2 is about right.

I may be walking into a storm here, but I would respectfully suggest that winning bucket loads of caps for Ireland (and Scotland) isn't quite the same as 100+ for the All Blacks.

I know I'll get lambasted here but I think BOD's rating at no.3 is a little high.

If you were to conduct the survey in SA, AUS or NZ I think he'd make the top 10...but probably 8-10.

I understand in Europe that he will score highly but he's not held in such high regard here compared to someone like Wilkinson and Jonno.

BOD was probably top 3 talent wise but for me at least I expected more from him in terms of results especially at Lions tours and world cups.

Its a team game I know that but I look back 2007, 2009 and 2011 when I think Ireland and the Lions should have done a lot better, had the players yet didn't quite make it for a number of reasons. You need your big time players to step up and whilst I can't remember him playing badly, I can't remember him taking games in those series/tournaments by the scruff of the neck and dragging his team to victory. He was defensively strong in 09 but what did he do with the ball and lets make no mistake, hard fought or not, had the boks played their top team in the 3rd test it would have been a 0-3 drubbing still.... lets not kid ourselves.

Take Wilkinson in 2007. He dragged that team through the QF and the SF. He was the main reason. Yes the pack were strong but it was hardly dynamic and the backline was a complete joke.... a 37 year old Catt with a zimmer frame who couldn't take the ball into contact without breaking a bone, Matt Tait, Toby Flood, Andy Gomersall, Peter Richards.

Those were average average players. That's what a top 5 player does.... for me I just don't quite buy it with BOD.
On a longevity aspect sure he gets a lot of credit but that doesn't mean anything bar playing at a specific grade to get selected. Impressive yes but it doesn't mean automatic greatness.

Its probably why he never got world player of the year. He was up there, but there was always someone better in a given year and in 09 when many thought he should have got it.... I still feel he didn't do enough to boldly take it and give people no excuse NOT to give it to him (I myself would have given to Du Preez that year but that's just my opinion).

funnyExiledScot wrote:I may be walking into a storm here, but I would respectfully suggest that winning bucket loads of caps for Ireland (and Scotland) isn't quite the same as 100+ for the All Blacks.

You could say winning 100 for Ireland isnt the same as winning 100 for the ABs but 140 for Ireland or anyone for that matter isn't far off 102 for NZ, therefore not too controversial really. It isn't just about the country you represent but the longevity of your career.

Also 4 of his NZ contemporaries broke the 100 mark so that suggests that it isn't that uncommon anymore.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I may be walking into a storm here, but I would respectfully suggest that winning bucket loads of caps for Ireland (and Scotland) isn't quite the same as 100+ for the All Blacks.

Of course it isn't -hence McCaw is out there on his own. That said you could argue that scoring 40 plus tries for Ireland probably isn't the same as scoring 40 plus for the ABs either hence stats need to be taken in context.

Carter was unplayable in his peak and 2 years ago I'd have agreed that he and McCaw were head and shoulder above the rest. However his form in recent years since the last RWC, albeit in part due to injury, isn't anywhere near that level so unless he can regain some hunger and form then for me he drops a rung on the ladder.

fa0019 wrote:I know I'll get lambasted here but I think BOD's rating at no.3 is a little high.

If you were to conduct the survey in SA, AUS or NZ I think he'd make the top 10...but probably 8-10.

That is because most rugby fans in the southern hemisphere haven't a clue about NH rugby, they don't watch the European Cup and hardly watch the six nations anymore.

When you talk about lions tours, look at BOD on the 2001 tour, even his performances in the last tour 2012.

I agree with you that in the SH he wouldn't rank so highly but that is due to SH fans lack of interest in NH rugby far more than his standing as a player.

What you claim jonny wilkinson did for england in 07, something i dont agree with you on, is far more an apt statement of the inspirational figure BOD was at both Leinster, Ireland and for the Lions.

I think third is a very accurate standing of his position in the history of the game.

fa0019 wrote:I know I'll get lambasted here but I think BOD's rating at no.3 is a little high.

If you were to conduct the survey in SA, AUS or NZ I think he'd make the top 10...but probably 8-10.

Nah. I reckon we'd probably rate him about 6. Definitely top 10. I mean in NZ we'd probably have Umaga, Bunce, C Smith above him. Mortlock was good as was Fourie. So I reckon he'd be fighting for somewhere about 6 in the No 13 stakes. All in all a chance of making the top 300 modern players.

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I know I'll get lambasted here but I think BOD's rating at no.3 is a little high.

If you were to conduct the survey in SA, AUS or NZ I think he'd make the top 10...but probably 8-10.

That is because most rugby fans in the southern hemisphere haven't a clue about NH rugby, they don't watch the European Cup and hardly watch the six nations anymore.

When you talk about lions tours, look at BOD on the 2001 tour, even his performances in the last tour 2012.

I agree with you that in the SH he wouldn't rank so highly but that is due to SH fans lack of interest in NH rugby far more than his standing as a player.

What you claim jonny wilkinson did for england in 07, something i dont agree with you on, is far more an apt statement of the inspirational figure BOD was at both Leinster, Ireland and for the Lions.

I think third is a very accurate standing of his position in the history of the game.

The reason why they don't watch it is because they see it as 2nd grade rugby. European club rugby is ok... but take out the foreign hoards and then match them up to SR. I think you'd see a huge dip in performance especially within the French sides.

People in the SH don't need to watch the 6N to learn about player greatness, they quite rightly say that well once they start beating us regularly we'll take notice... until then its meaningless to assert a players greatness. Player X scored a great try against the 5th best side in the world, nice, but he scored nought against teams 1,2 and 3.  Case closed.

blackcanelion wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I know I'll get lambasted here but I think BOD's rating at no.3 is a little high.

If you were to conduct the survey in SA, AUS or NZ I think he'd make the top 10...but probably 8-10.

Nah. I reckon we'd probably rate him about 6. Definitely top 10. I mean in NZ we'd probably have Umaga, Bunce, C Smith above him. Mortlock was good as was Fourie. So I reckon he'd be fighting for somewhere about 6 in the No 13 stakes.

Jokes!

Get this man a beer... and a shield for deflecting the forthcoming abuse!

fa0019 wrote:Its a team game I know that but I look back 2007, 2009 and 2011 when I think Ireland and the Lions should have done a lot better, had the players yet didn't quite make it for a number of reasons. You need your big time players to step up and whilst I can't remember him playing badly, I can't remember him taking games in those series/tournaments by the scruff of the neck and dragging his team to victory. He was defensively strong in 09 but what did he do with the ball and lets make no mistake, hard fought or not, had the boks played their top team in the 3rd test it would have been a 0-3 drubbing still.... lets not kid ourselves.

Well 2001 he ripped the wallabies apart - same with France that year. 2003  RWC almost beat the wallabies by himself.

2009 almost single handedly dragged Ireland over the line to the GS and the same to victory against the springboks that Autumn -shooting the line and making a match winning tackle.

All this in an era where Ireland really weren't accustomed to winning anything - he changed the mentality and expectations.

It is a team game but rarely has an outside back ever influenced games so much in attack and defence and certainly never over such a long career.  

I don't think he can be held culpable,,as an individual player, for the failings of 3 successive Lions tours given how rare series victories are, nor Irelands RWC performances and lack of victories against the ABs.

John Smit and Victor Matfield (I think also) never managed a victory on Irish soil so should we judge them on that?

Ireland regularly beats South Africa and they still think we are rubbish and don't know the names of most of our players. There comes a point when you realize they actually just don't have a clue.

All you have to do is read the NZ, Oz or SA media to realize this. Or listen to commentary like this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0gV-Wbg04s

Haha Kearnsey.

blackcanelion wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I know I'll get lambasted here but I think BOD's rating at no.3 is a little high.

If you were to conduct the survey in SA, AUS or NZ I think he'd make the top 10...but probably 8-10.

Nah. I reckon we'd probably rate him about 6. Definitely top 10. I mean in NZ we'd probably have Umaga, Bunce, C Smith above him. Mortlock was good as was Fourie. So I reckon he'd be fighting for somewhere about 6 in the No 13 stakes. All in all a chance of making the top 300 modern players.

Yes I'm sure. But how many tries would they have scored outside Kevin Maggs.....

rodders wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Its a team game I know that but I look back 2007, 2009 and 2011 when I think Ireland and the Lions should have done a lot better, had the players yet didn't quite make it for a number of reasons. You need your big time players to step up and whilst I can't remember him playing badly, I can't remember him taking games in those series/tournaments by the scruff of the neck and dragging his team to victory. He was defensively strong in 09 but what did he do with the ball and lets make no mistake, hard fought or not, had the boks played their top team in the 3rd test it would have been a 0-3 drubbing still.... lets not kid ourselves.

Well 2001 he ripped the wallabies apart - same with France that year. 2003  RWC almost beat the wallabies by himself.

2009 almost single handedly dragged Ireland over the line to the GS and the same to victory against the springboks that Autumn -shooting the line and making a match winning tackle.

All this in an era where Ireland really weren't accustomed to winning anything - he changed the mentality and expectations.

It is a team game but rarely has an outside back ever influenced games so much in attack and defence and certainly never over such a long career.  

I don't think he can be held culpable,,as an individual player, for the failings of 3 successive Lions tours given how rare series victories are, nor Irelands RWC performances and lack of victories against the ABs.

John Smit and Victor Matfield (I think also) never managed a victory on Irish soil so should we judge them on that?

Saying a player ripped the Wallabies apart is a bit much given they won the series and he scored 1 try in 3 matches. Do you remember another massive break he had... bar the won when the Lions were already 20 points clear of the Aussies?

No one cares about one off games. He had his moments against all sides... but the games which count, which really count ???? i.e the RWCs, the Lions tours what can he say for that?

03 - I think he played as well as he could.
05 - Injury prevented him from making his mark.
07 - Major disappointment as captain. A SF minimum was expected. Ireland fell apart during the tournament, no one stood up.
09 - Expected a lot more from VC. Defensively excellent, offensively absent.
11 - Really should have made the final.

So a player plays well every now and again to remind people how great they are, people in this game people know that some games are worth more than others. Usain Bolt gets beaten every now and again in the domestic season, come the major championships what happens?

Its like saying Cristiano Ronaldo is better or equal to Maradona because of his domestic record and that he plays for Portugal and not a powerhouse in Argentina.... people don't remember how bad Argentina were without him in the era. Bobby Robson said that Maradona would have won the world cup with Arsenal in 86.... who were only a top half first division side at the time at best. That's the difference.

Jeez Fa you really must have some sort of bias to come up with some of those conclusions. You are like a broken record at this stage.

I'd agree that O'Driscoll's placing is a little high.

An Irish great (and probably top 10 in modern era) but, like Parisse, I think there's a bit of "big fish in a little pond" syndrome going on there.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I may be walking into a storm here, but I would respectfully suggest that winning bucket loads of caps for Ireland (and Scotland) isn't quite the same as 100+ for the All Blacks.

You could say winning 100 for Ireland isnt the same as winning 100 for the ABs but 140 for Ireland or anyone for that matter isn't far off 102 for NZ, therefore not too controversial really. It isn't just about the country you represent but the longevity of your career.

Also 4 of his NZ contemporaries broke the 100 mark so that suggests that it isn't that uncommon anymore.

This is a fair point. Whilst Carter and McCaw would be great players in any All Black era, I don't think Woodcock or Mealamu are particularly special, despite crossing the 100 cap threshold. Dowd and Fitzpatrick were both better players, and there are better contemporary looseheads and hookers than those two, neither of whom would have made a World XV at any point in the careers (in my opinion). Competition wasn't particularly strong in those positions over the period.

Carter and McCaw have both seen off some decent challengers though, players who would have probably won a bunch more caps had they been eligible for other nations (e.g. Holah, Evans etc.).

GunsGerms wrote:Jeez Fa you really must have some sort of bias to come up with some of those conclusions. You are like a broken record at this stage.

Do you think with the talent you guys had in 07-11 that your players did you justice? If so then fine, but I just don't buy it myself. I saw highly rated teams, the dark horses for final places and series wins and we saw them bitterly disappoint.

Is Jonah Lomu judged on his non performance in the 1995 RWC final and/or ABs capitilation against France in 1999?

Whats Carter's record in RWCs? Tana Umaga's? Apart from beating the worst Lions team in the pro era did there guys produce when 'it counts'?

Or are we applying double standards to NH v SH players?

Cyril wrote:I'd agree that O'Driscoll's placing is a little high.

An Irish great (and probably top 10 in modern era) but, like Parisse, I think there's a bit of "big fish in a little pond" syndrome going on there.

I think its a bit harsh to call the NH a little pond cyril.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

thomh wrote:I haven't seen that award, but won't it have been heavily decided specifically on their involvement with HC victories? Martyn Williams wouldn't have been an appropriate selection for that, for example, but for a general greatest player list it could be different.

Assuming he's being judged solely as an openside (could also play blind IIRC?), and only 3 or 4 of them make the list, then he'd have to beat quite a few of McCaw, Smith, Burger, Back, Kronfeld, Pocock, Waugh, Dusatoir, SOB etc. I suppose you could make an argument for him, but surely it's not crazy as you suggested to leave him out?

Back & Dusatoir both played for very successful teams in the Heineken Cup and he was selected ahead of them. Martyn Williams did get selected for an award in that tournament. (by the way, from what I can see, Martyn Williams has never been on a Wales side that has defeated one of the big 3).

You're wrong about Martyn Williams unfortunately, pal. Didn't we all just know that somehow this would turn into a 'slag off the Wales players' thread, all threads seem to go that way these days.

Also, you've a point about Wallace. I reckon he was definitely one of the best in the world, and carried equal if not, greater importance for that Ireland team than BOD himself. He was a 7 that had it all, you don't get many of those nowadays.

My only criticism of Martyn Williams is that he made this Top 50, unlike Wally (and a few others). Shane Williams is regarded as being a better winger than Howlett (and a few others) because he was smaller than them.

I will stand up for O'Driscoll for the 2009 Lions tour. Roberts got the plaudits but it was BOD who made it work in my eyes. His mental ability with the physicality of Roberts was a joy to watch. Also, while I agree if South Africa had of played their full strength team in the 3rd test the Lions would have lost, if we hadn't lost Jenkins, Jones, Roberts and O'Driscoll in the 2nd test then we would have won. All ifs, buts and maybes I accept, but I do believe that.

Also agree he was the main reason Ireland won the Grand Slam that year - I was at the Ireland England game in Croke Park (dire match) but O'Driscoll was the difference. Scored a 'forwards try', a drop goal and got clattered a fair few times. He deserved the GS that year.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Jeez Fa you really must have some sort of bias to come up with some of those conclusions. You are like a broken record at this stage.

Do you think with the talent you guys had in 07-11 that your players did you justice? If so then fine, but I just don't buy it myself. I saw highly rated teams, the dark horses for final places and series wins and we saw them bitterly disappoint.

That is weak logic to call O'Driscoll an unaccomplished player. He was certainly one of Ireland's better players in the 07 WC. The catalogue of management errors leading up to the WC were much more significant re Ireland's failures at that WC that anything you can lay blame at O'Driscoll for.

Ireland sacrificed warm up games for extra gym sessions and as a result were not match fit. In one of the warm up games they did play they played against Bayonne. A spectacular error of judgement given Ireland had France in their group. Bayonne set out to injure as many Ireland players as possible. O'Driscoll himself had to play the WC with a fractured cheek bone as a result of a punch to the face he got in that game.

Another disruption to the team was the prevalence of stories re O'Gara's gambling debt in the lead up to the WC in the French media. Some sources suggesting a prominent Irish business man had to bail him out. However, probably the biggest factor was Ireland played virtually the same team in every game and thus not only there a sense of discontent amongst squad members the first team players were shot by the time they played the key game v France.

rodders wrote:

Cyril wrote:I'd agree that O'Driscoll's placing is a little high.

An Irish great (and probably top 10 in modern era) but, like Parisse, I think there's a bit of "big fish in a little pond" syndrome going on there.

I think its a bit harsh to call the NH a little pond cyril.

It is compared to the SH.

Does that make Ireland a puddle?

Some interesting lock omissions from the list: Pelous, Albacete, Sharpe, Ali Williams, Jack and AWJ.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Some interesting lock omissions from the list: Pelous, Albacete, Sharpe, Ali Williams, Jack and AWJ.

Never rated Jack myself.

When he went to Sarries he was gash and ended up playing blindside. Came to us at WP and he was similarly poor. Average player amongst greats IMO.

fa0019 wrote:BOD was probably top 3 talent wise but for me at least I expected more from him in terms of results especially at Lions tours and world cups.

Its a team game I know that but I look back 2007, 2009 and 2011 when I think Ireland and the Lions should have done a lot better, had the players yet didn't quite make it for a number of reasons. You need your big time players to step up and whilst I can't remember him playing badly, I can't remember him taking games in those series/tournaments by the scruff of the neck and dragging his team to victory. He was defensively strong in 09 but what did he do with the ball and lets make no mistake, hard fought or not, had the boks played their top team in the 3rd test it would have been a 0-3 drubbing still.... lets not kid ourselves.

Take Wilkinson in 2007. He dragged that team through the QF and the SF. He was the main reason. Yes the pack were strong but it was hardly dynamic and the backline was a complete joke.... a 37 year old Catt with a zimmer frame who couldn't take the ball into contact without breaking a bone, Matt Tait, Toby Flood, Andy Gomersall, Peter Richards.

I think you're being a bit harsh. BOD was a key player in 3 Heineken Cup wins, he was important to Ireland's 2009 Grand Slam and he did play very well on that Lions tour. Ireland probably should have won a bit more with him admittedly, but I don't think that's a personal failing of his.

Not sure what you mean by the bit in bold. BOD didn't play in the last test anyway. In fact the Lions had to make more changes than the Boks made for the third test because of injuries and fatigue. Worsley and Williams at flanker, Flutey and Bowe at centre, Williams and Monye on wing etc.

I was really just throwing in more grist for the mill to this debate. The author of the list has gone to town on scrum halves but I would certainly argue for Pelous, AWJ or Sharpe ahead of Will Genia.

thomh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:BOD was probably top 3 talent wise but for me at least I expected more from him in terms of results especially at Lions tours and world cups.

Its a team game I know that but I look back 2007, 2009 and 2011 when I think Ireland and the Lions should have done a lot better, had the players yet didn't quite make it for a number of reasons. You need your big time players to step up and whilst I can't remember him playing badly, I can't remember him taking games in those series/tournaments by the scruff of the neck and dragging his team to victory. He was defensively strong in 09 but what did he do with the ball and lets make no mistake, hard fought or not, had the boks played their top team in the 3rd test it would have been a 0-3 drubbing still.... lets not kid ourselves.

Take Wilkinson in 2007. He dragged that team through the QF and the SF. He was the main reason. Yes the pack were strong but it was hardly dynamic and the backline was a complete joke.... a 37 year old Catt with a zimmer frame who couldn't take the ball into contact without breaking a bone, Matt Tait, Toby Flood, Andy Gomersall, Peter Richards.

I think you're being a bit harsh. BOD was a key player in 3 Heineken Cup wins, he was important to Ireland's 2009 Grand Slam and he did play very well on that Lions tour. Ireland probably should have won a bit more with him admittedly, but I don't think that's a personal failing of his.

Not sure what you mean by the bit in bold. BOD didn't play in the last test anyway. In fact the Lions had to make more changes than the Boks made for the third test because of injuries and fatigue. Worsley and Williams at flanker, Flutey and Bowe at centre, Williams and Monye on wing etc.

However you choose to describe that Lions series in 2009, it was certainly not a "drubbing" even if you take the 3rd Test Lions victory out of the equation.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

thomh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:BOD was probably top 3 talent wise but for me at least I expected more from him in terms of results especially at Lions tours and world cups.

Its a team game I know that but I look back 2007, 2009 and 2011 when I think Ireland and the Lions should have done a lot better, had the players yet didn't quite make it for a number of reasons. You need your big time players to step up and whilst I can't remember him playing badly, I can't remember him taking games in those series/tournaments by the scruff of the neck and dragging his team to victory. He was defensively strong in 09 but what did he do with the ball and lets make no mistake, hard fought or not, had the boks played their top team in the 3rd test it would have been a 0-3 drubbing still.... lets not kid ourselves.

Take Wilkinson in 2007. He dragged that team through the QF and the SF. He was the main reason. Yes the pack were strong but it was hardly dynamic and the backline was a complete joke.... a 37 year old Catt with a zimmer frame who couldn't take the ball into contact without breaking a bone, Matt Tait, Toby Flood, Andy Gomersall, Peter Richards.

I think you're being a bit harsh. BOD was a key player in 3 Heineken Cup wins, he was important to Ireland's 2009 Grand Slam and he did play very well on that Lions tour. Ireland probably should have won a bit more with him admittedly, but I don't think that's a personal failing of his.

Not sure what you mean by the bit in bold. BOD didn't play in the last test anyway. In fact the Lions had to make more changes than the Boks made for the third test because of injuries and fatigue. Worsley and Williams at flanker, Flutey and Bowe at centre, Williams and Monye on wing etc.

However you choose to describe that Lions series in 2009, it was certainly not a "drubbing" even if you take the 3rd Test Lions victory out of the equation.

SA took their foot off the gas in test 1. We were competitive thanks to a yellow card were we exploited it in test 2 and SA couldn't give a rats a** about test 3. Had they had the mentality of NZ they would have smashed us. But for SA the win was enough.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually watched that series. The first two tests were ultra competitive and the second in particular could realistically have gone either way.

GunsGerms wrote:Sometimes I wonder if you actually watched that series. The first two tests were ultra competitive and the second in particular could realistically have gone either way.

Watch the first half of the first test. We were gone and SA gave up.

2nd test had the yellow card event not happened we probably wouldn't have got ahead. We got a lead from the yellow card 10 mins and held onto it for 60 odd mins by the scruff of our necks.

2 top class matches but lets not kid ourselves that SA were far from ruthless and took their foot off the gas in test 1. We were man-shamed that day.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sometimes I wonder if you actually watched that series. The first two tests were ultra competitive and the second in particular could realistically have gone either way.

Watch the first half of the first test. We were gone and SA gave up.

2nd test had the yellow card event not happened we probably wouldn't have got ahead. We got a lead from the yellow card 10 mins and held onto it for 60 odd mins by the scruff of our necks.

2 top class matches but lets not kid ourselves that SA were far from ruthless and took their foot off the gas in test 1. We were man-shamed that day.

Or you could say a scratch side took 50 minutes to warm-up, and when they did they "man shamed" South Africa and nearly took the game from them (two disallowed tries in the final 10), competing toe to toe in the 2nd Test (a draw but for ROG's rush of blood to the head) and won the 3rd Test.

That was a mighty close series. Really no question about that.

Watch the first test again... its one of the mos car crash matches I've ever seen. We were smashed.

SA literally took the foot off the gas and due to individual performances of 1 or 2 guys we got back....notably Mike Phillips who loves the needle and suited the situation down to a T. The pack had no answers.

They did well to recover but if fairness we were smashed.

The 3rd test didn't matter, had SA had to have won that match, they would have done.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sometimes I wonder if you actually watched that series. The first two tests were ultra competitive and the second in particular could realistically have gone either way.

Watch the first half of the first test. We were gone and SA gave up.

2nd test had the yellow card event not happened we probably wouldn't have got ahead. We got a lead from the yellow card 10 mins and held onto it for 60 odd mins by the scruff of our necks.

2 top class matches but lets not kid ourselves that SA were far from ruthless and took their foot off the gas in test 1. We were man-shamed that day.

Not quite, we kept getting penalised in the scrum and SA chipped away with pens. Vickery was subbed off and the Lions turned it around. Lost by 4 or something in the end. The Lions also had two tries ruled out by the TMO. Is that a drubbing?

I think the ref Bryce Lawrence (a Kiwi surprise, surprise) was determined to do the Lions no favours and many of the calls at the scrum were fairly marginal and that was the difference between the teams.

I think the Lions blew it....well actually ROG and Monye did to be fair.

In fact it probably cost BOD joint 1st on the top 50 with Ritchie. Given ROG blew the 2007 RWC too he owes drico a few pints one would say.

fa0019 wrote:Watch the first test again... its one of the mos car crash matches I've ever seen. We were smashed.

SA literally took the foot off the gas and due to individual performances of 1 or 2 guys we got back....notably Mike Phillips who loves the needle and suited the situation down to a T. The pack had no answers.

They did well to recover but if fairness we were smashed.

The 3rd test didn't matter, had SA had to have won that match, they would have done.

Just stick to the facts eh!!

Rugby matches last for 80 minutes, it's not enough to play for 50. Yes, South Africa dominated in the pack in the 1st Test (some questionnable reffing of the scrum mind you), but the Lions were the more creative side in that series and came roaring back against the Boks in the final 30 of that 1st Test. The margins were 5 points and 3 points in the first two Tests, with the Lions winning the final Test comfortably.

I really don't understand how you can honestly say that the series wasn't closely fought. It's a ridiculous opinion to hold!!

I don't actually think it was Vickery coming off who was the major problem. I think it was Mears in the middle who couldn't hit a barn door and had no power in the scrum.

Jones helped defo but Rees and Shaw were more important IMO.

I don't like saying it, I was bigging up our team for ages and was even seeing some sense in McGeechan's and Gatland's pack selections but I can't remember a time when a pack were dominated from so much from the whistle.

Perhaps Ireland vs. England in 2011 was the last time.

rodders wrote:I think the Lions blew it....well actually ROG and Monye did to be fair.

In fact it probably cost BOD joint 1st on the top 50 with Ritchie. Given ROG blew the 2007 RWC too he owes drico a few pints one would say.

Whilst I'm still to forgive ROG for not just taking the draw in the 2nd Test, I actually think the bigger mistakes were made in the 1st Test. Quite how McGeechan and Gatland saw fit to select Vickery and Mears over Jones and Rees is beyond me, particularly Mears, who is about the last hooker in the world I'd play against a front row including Du Plessis, Smit and the Beast. Far far too small, and it wasn't like 1997 when Telfer specifically coached the Lions to go low, because Vickery and Jenkins along side Mears are both tall props. That both were subbed before the 50 minute mark suggests to me that they simply got it wrong.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Watch the first test again... its one of the mos car crash matches I've ever seen. We were smashed.

SA literally took the foot off the gas and due to individual performances of 1 or 2 guys we got back....notably Mike Phillips who loves the needle and suited the situation down to a T. The pack had no answers.

They did well to recover but if fairness we were smashed.

The 3rd test didn't matter, had SA had to have won that match, they would have done.

Just stick to the facts eh!!

Rugby matches last for 80 minutes, it's not enough to play for 50. Yes, South Africa dominated in the pack in the 1st Test (some questionnable reffing of the scrum mind you), but the Lions were the more creative side in that series and came roaring back against the Boks in the final 30 of that 1st Test. The margins were 5 points and 3 points in the first two Tests, with the Lions winning the final Test comfortably.

I really don't understand how you can honestly say that the series wasn't closely fought. It's a ridiculous opinion to hold!!

OK if you want to stick to just facts. We won the 3rd test. We had massive injuries yes but the boks rested literally 10 players which they could have played had they wished.

fa0019 wrote:I don't actually think it was Vickery coming off who was the major problem. I think it was Mears in the middle who couldn't hit a barn door and had no power in the scrum.

Jones helped defo but Rees and Shaw were more important IMO.

I don't like saying it, I was bigging up our team for ages and was even seeing some sense in McGeechan's and Gatland's pack selections but I can't remember a time when a pack were dominated from so much from the whistle.

Perhaps Ireland vs. England in 2011 was the last time.

Without seeing your post I literally wrote the same thing!

fa0019 wrote:Shane Williams. Good player for Wales but when did he do it on the World stage not just the European stage? A virtuoso try vs the boks in 08 certainly but it was only to show what could have been, not what was.

2 Lions tours and did badly on both. World cups... mixed at best.

In essence he was a poor man's Jason Robinson... a European player who would command respect amongst the very best wingers in pro rugby history (i.e. Lomu, Cullen, Caucau, Habana)... Williams is probably in the next grouping.

Williams scored 5 against SA actually, over 9 games, all the tries coming on SA soil, which puts him equal (and in fewer matches) to Rokocoko and Cullen.. who you mentioned as one of the best wingers.

Source: ESPN, 2012

LOve how these debates just turn into NH v SH bickering....

But seriously BOD was class. If he was in a SH team all SH fans would be saying he was one of the greatest ever ...but because he's a NH player he "might make the top 10 centres"....makes me laugh.

thomh wrote:
Take Wilkinson in 2007. He dragged that team through the QF and the SF. He was the main reason. Yes the pack were strong but it was hardly dynamic and the backline was a complete joke.... a 37 year old Catt with a zimmer frame who couldn't take the ball into contact without breaking a bone, Matt Tait, Toby Flood, Andy Gomersall, Peter Richards.

Wilko might have done well enough in 2007 bearing in mind that England had an easy group. I'm not sure how well they would have done if they had France & Argentina in their group as Ireland did.

England had an awful world cup in 2011 and JW couldn't do anything about it. In fact his kicking stats were shocking for him and England were swapping balls as well! Only player really able to deal with the ball was ROG.

Sin é wrote:
Wilko might have done well enough in 2007 bearing in mind that England had an easy group. I'm not sure how well they would have done if they had France & Argentina in their group as Ireland did.

England had an awful world cup in 2011 and JW couldn't do anything about it. In fact his kicking stats were shocking for him and England were swapping balls as well! Only player really able to deal with the ball was ROG.

Think you're doing Englands group a disservice there Sin é; South Africa, Samoa, Tonga and USA is tougher overall than France, Argentina, Namibia and Georgia. In consecutive weekends England beat Samoa, Tonga, Australia and France in 2007, and those games were sandwiched by playing South Africa. You don't see a run like that without a weeks break very much. Its what makes the World Cup so great.

Agree with you about 2011 - England must have been the most disappointing team in the tournament.

Can't understand Umaga being included when all he is really known for is taking out his biggest threat and creating a Law change in the process?