50 Greatest Rugby players of the modern game

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This from an article by Simon Thomas.

50. Scott Quinnell (WAL)

After a short spell in league, the man from the famous rugby family returned to Union when the game went open. One of the most effective ball-carrying No 8s in the world, he was like a one-man pack for Wales at times.

49. Yannick Jauzion (FRA)

You just couldn’t bring him down! The elegant Toulouse centre had a unique ability to stand up in the tackle and deliver a killer off-load. A sharp rugby brain as well. Pure class.

48. Carl Hayman (NZ)

We just hadn’t seen a tight-head prop like him before. At 6ft 4ins and 18st 13lbs, the Otago powerhouse was a man mountain in the All Blacks pack ahead of a lucrative move to Europe.

47. Mils Muliaina (NZ)

A wonderful counter-attacking full-back. Such a silky balanced runner and hardly ever made a mistake. One of an elite group to have appeared in 100 Tests for New Zealand.

46. Gary Teichmann (SA)

An inspirational No 8, he captained South Africa to a record 17 Test winning streak before launching the Bok and Amber revolution at Newport.

45. Martyn Williams (WAL)

Mr Consistency. Man of the Match time and again for club and country. A footballing openside flanker, this Wales centurion went on three Lions tours.

44. Rob Howley (WAL)

Shone brightly despite spending much of Test career behind a beaten Welsh pack. Confirmed status as a world class scrum-half with the Lions and won Wasps the Heineken Cup.

43. Ma'a Nonu (NZ)

Known initially more for his braided hair and eyeliner, the man from Wellington has added passing and kicking to his raw line-breaking power to become one of the great centres.

42. Bakkies Botha (SA)

The second row enforcer in South Africa’s World Cup winning team of 2007, he retired from international rugby this year. You simply didn't mess with Bakkies!

41. Will Greenwood (ENG)

A tall, stylish centre who had a particular penchant for scoring tries against Wales. Two Lions tours, but his finest hour was lifting the World Cup with England in 2003.

40. Thierry Dusautoir (FRA)

Produced one of the most incredible individual performance of modern times when he made an eye-popping 38 tackles and scored a try in France’s 2007 World Cup win over New Zealand. World player of year in 2011.

39. Tana Umaga (NZ)

A great reader of the game, the Hurricanes centre was the focal point of the New Zealand back-line for years and a hugely successful skipper, winning 19 out of 21 games at the helm, including a Lions clean-sweep.

38. Jean de Villiers (SA)

Can fulfil the role of the hard-running centre as well as do all the pretty stuff. Recognised as the king of interception, he has scored 25 Test tries in all, and has gone on to become a fine leader of South Africa. Suffered a horror injury against Wales this sutumn that could rule him out of next year's World Cup.

37. Conrad Smith (NZ)

Nicknamed The Snake because of his ability to slither through the smallest of gaps and strike with a sudden burst of speed. Brings fluidity to the All Blacks midfield with his intelligent passing and vision.

36. Augustin Pichot (ARG)

A pivotal figure in the emergence of Argentina as a major force in the game, the much travelled scrum-half captained the Pumas to their breakthrough third place finish in the 2007 World Cup. Such a livewire.

35. Adam Jones (WAL)

His record speaks for itself. The scrum cornerstone of three Grand Slam winning teams and the Test tight-head on two Lions tours. A true legend of Welsh rugby even if he doesn't make the World Cup squad.

34. Schalk Burger (SA)

One of the most physical flankers in the game, he was dubbed a “threshing machine” by former Springboks coach Nick Mallett.

33. Joe Rokocoko (NZ)

The former All Blacks winger boasts a remarkable strike rate, having scored 47 tries in 68 Tests. When you’ve got speed and strength, you’ve always got a chance and the Fijian-born flier had both in bucketloads.

32. Stephen Larkham (AUS)

A converted full-back, the elegant Larkham proved a worthy successor to Michael Lynagh as the Wallaby No 10. Pulled the strings to great effect during Australia’s 1999 World Cup winning campaign.

31. Fourie du Preez (SA)

Any aspiring scrum-half should watch this man in action. A master tactician, with a great kicking game, he was the lynchpin of the South African team that won the World Cup and defeated the Lions.

30. Juan-Martin Fernandez-Lobbe (ARG)

Look for the ball and the Pumas back rower is certain to be somewhere in the vicinity. He’s either scrabbling for it on the deck, leaping to pluck it out of the air, fielding it deep in his own half or carrying it on the charge.

29. Justin Marshall (NZ)

Some players talk the talk, some walk the walk. Justin Marshall could do both. Backed up his chirping by running the show for the All Blacks in an 81-cap Test career ahead of a high-profile spell with the Ospreys.

28. Matt Giteau (AUS)

Blessed with huge natural ability, he was able to turn his hand to scrum-half, fly-half and centre and prove a devastating in each position. Having won 92 caps with Australia, he has been on the Toulon trophy trail of late.

27. Will Genia (AUS)

One of those special players who can win a game single-handedly, either with his own sniping breaks or by putting others into space. A pocket dynamo, on his day the Wallaby scrum-half is pound for pound one of the strongest players in world rugby.

26. Scott Gibbs (WAL)

Responsible for one of the great moments in Welsh rugby history, with that Wembley try against England in 1999, and a similarly seminal Lions image with his dumping of Os du Randt two years earlier. A wrecking ball centre.

25. Richard Hill (ENG)

The ultimate players’ player. Did all the unseen, grafting work and just got on with his job in unassuming fashion, putting his body on the line. Able to excel right across the back row, he was a pivotal figure on two Lions trips and an England World Cup winner.

24. Gethin Jenkins (WAL)

Has revolutionised the role of the loose-head prop. Like an extra back row player with his ability over the ball and his defensive work-rate. As with fellow front rower, Adam Jones, the medal haul says it all.

23. Doug Howlett (NZ)

A star sprinter as a schoolboy, he once clocked a personal best of 10.94 seconds for 100 metres. Used his speed to great effect in his rugby career, scoring a record 49 tries for the All Blacks. Also known as a winger with a high work rate and strong defensive ability, Howlett went on to become a firm favourite with Munster, lifting the Heineken Cup.

22. Christian Cullen (NZ)

Just about the most exciting player in the world game for a few years in the late 1990s. Nicknamed the Paekakariki Express, he had a remarkable strike rate, scoring 46 tries in just 58 Tests for New Zealand, with his elusive running and pace from full-back simply ripping sides apart.

21. Lawrence Dallaglio (ENG)

Went from being a schoolboy chorister to one of the most formidable physical presences in the game of rugby. Had it all in his prime - pace, power, aggression, pride and a steely, winning mind-set.

20. George Smith (AUS)

The scourge of the Lions at the age of 20 and more than 100 caps to his name for the Wallabies before he was 30. An absolute pest and nuisance at the breakdown, he made a living out of slowing down or stealing opposition ball, while he could also be highly effective as an attacking flanking force.

19. John Smit (SA)

One of the great captains of the professional era. Led South Africa a record 83 times in 111 Tests, guiding them to victory at the 2007 World Cup, a series triumph over the Lions in 2009 and two Tri-Nations titles. A teak hard performer in his own right, mainly at hooker, but also at prop. A warrior.

18. Jason Robinson (ENG)

Known as Billy Whizz, this former rugby league star proved a hugely successful convert to Union. A lethal runner from full-back or wing, he was a nightmare to mark in one-on-one situations. Had a knack of scoring memorable tries on the biggest stages of all, for England and the Lions.

17. Zinzan Brooke (NZ)

A dynamic ball carrier, this Kiwi No 8 also had better kicking and handling skills than some fly-halves. Heaped the ultimate indignity on England in the 1995 World Cup semi-final, landing an audacious drop goal from 40 metres after they had already been demolished by four-try Jonah Lomu.

16. Percy Montgomery (SA)

His Test days appeared to be over when he joined Newport in 2002, but the move actually re-ignited his international career and he went on to be the top points scorer at the 2007 World Cup, excelling at full-back as South Africa took the trophy. Ended up with a century of caps. Blond style!

15. Paul O'Connell (IRE)

Munster fans will tell you that Superman wears Paul O’Connell pyjamas! The Irish lock certainly has special rugby powers having been one of the world’s leading tight forwards for more than a decade. A three-times Lions who captained the tour of South Africa in 2009.

14. George Gregan (AUS)

A talkative figure on the field, was responsible for one of the great on-field jibes, taunting the All Blacks with the words “Four more years” during the dying moments of Australia’s 2003 World Cup semi-final victory. Born in Zambia, this complete scrum-half won a whopping 139 caps.

13. Victor Matfield (SA)

Dubbed the best centre in South Africa for his love of running with the ball in midfield, this ultra athletic second row has come out of retirement and looks as good as ever.

12. Bryan Habana (SA)

Anyone who races cheetahs in his spare time is likely to be reasonably rapid and the South African speedster has scorched his way to 53 Test tries, including a record-equalling eight to help the ‘Boks win the 2007 World Cup.

11. Martin Johnson (ENG)

A player who led by example and the kind of man you would always want alongside you in the trenches when the chips are down. Would never ask someone to do something he wouldn’t himself. Holds the unique distinction of having captained the Lions on two tours, including the triumphant 1997 trip to South Africa, while he will ever be remembered as the man who was presented with the 2003 World Cup, which England won in Sydney.

As well as being an inspirational leader, the Leicester lock was also a formidable player in his own right. Never a man to mess with, he was a rock like presence in the tight, whose rugby motto was if in doubt, go forward.

10. Jonny Wilkinson (ENG)

In some ways, you could argue Wilkinson has been the epitome of the professional era. He has set new standards in terms of dedication and an almost obsessive pursuit of perfection. He’s also been one of the great match winners of the era and one of the game’s greatest ever accumulators of points. In fact, only Dan Carter has scored more in Test rugby, with Wilkinson having garnered 1,246 during his 97 caps for England and the Lions. His finest hour, of course, came in 2003, when he slotted the drop goal that won the World Cup. The fact he landed it with his weaker right foot speaks volumes for his hours and hours of diligent practice. Bowed out this year having earned two more trophies with Toulon.

9. John Eales (AUS)

Nicknamed “Nobody” because “Nobody’s perfect” and his record is certainly pretty close to perfection. One of a select band of players to have won two World Cups, skippering Australia to glory in Cardiff in 1999. Captained the Wallabies 55 times during his 86-cap Test career, establishing himself as one of the most respected figures in the game. He was also very much a one of a kind as a player. It’s hard to believe now, but he scored 173 points in international rugby. An agile, athletic second row lineout ace, he was also a top-class place-kicker, who landed 65 Test shots at goal. A real ambassador for the game and a great player.

8. Shane Williams (WAL)

Everyone remembers his side-stepping magic and wing wizardry, but it’s easy to forget just how hard Shane Williams worked in order to be able to hold his own physically on the international stage. Having burst onto the scene in exciting fashion, he spent two years in the Test wilderness amid concerns over his size. But having grabbed his chance at the 2003 World Cup, he worked diligently to complement his God-given ability by working on his physique, emerging as the greatest Welsh player of his generation. Named world player of the year in 2008, he ended up with 60 Test tries, leaving him third on the all-time list behind behind Daisuke Ohata and David Campese.

He was The Great Entertainer.

7. Tim Horan (AUS)

When he made his Test debut for Australia against New Zealand in 1989, he impressed his opposite number, Joe Stanley, so much that Stanley gave him his jersey. The Kiwi knew talent when he saw it.

After emerging as one of the young stars of the 1991 World Cup, Horan returned from a horrendous knee injury to be player of the tournament eight years later as he lifted the Webb Ellis trophy for a second time.

Possessed pace, balance, great ball skills and courage, with his attacking prowess, formidable defence and play-making ability marking him out as one of the finest centres the game of rugby has ever seen. Scored 40 Test tries at a rate of one every other game.

6. Sergio Parisse (ITA)

There’s no such thing as a one-man team in rugby, but it’s got pretty close to that with Italy at times over the past decade. That one man, of course, is their talismanic skipper Sergio Parisse. The Argentinian-born No 8 has been a key figure for the Azzurri since making an eye-catching debut as an 18-year-old against New Zealand in 2002..

Big and strong, he has the size to make holes in any defence, but he also has hands to die for and the subtlety to execute passes out of the back of his hand as though he were a fly-half. Add to that an astute brain for the game and an absolute refusal to bend the knee and you have pretty much the complete rugby player.

5. Joost van der Westhuizen (SA)

One of the game’s great competitors on the field, the former Springboks scrum-half has carried that attitude into his off-field battles since hanging up his boots.

You only have to watch the legendary Living With Lions video from the South African tour of 1997 to understand just how highly he was rated by the opposition and what a threat he was seen as.

Aggressive and fearless, he was one of the finest running scrum-halves the game has ever seen, scoring 38 tries in 89 Tests, a remarkable tally for a No 9. Despite standing 6ft 1ins tall, he was able to find and penetrate the tiniest gaps in opposing defences.

An inspirational force as a player, he has inspired people once again in recent years with his fight against motor neurone disease.

4. Jonah Lomu (NZ)

Has one man ever done more to popularise the game of rugby than Jonah? When he burst onto the scene at the 1995 World Cup, it was like a meteor landing from outer space. We had never seen anything like him before and his incredible feats grabbed the attention of folk who had never previously been interested in the sport. The physical impact Lomu had on the 1995 World Cup was beyond the effect of any other player in the history of the game.

He scored seven tries in 1995, including four in an unforgettable one-man demolition job of England in the semi.

Lomu went one better in 1999 to finish with a record 15 tournament tries, enjoyed a stint with the Cardiff Blues before showing his dignity with his brave fight against a debilitating kidney problem. One of a kind.

3. Brian O'Driscoll (IRE)

We may never see the likes of BOD again.

One of the most feared players in the game, O’Driscoll has also been one of the most consistent since bursting onto the international stage over a decade ago.

His 141 Test caps, including eight for the Lions, make him the most experienced international ever.

The all-time Irish record try scorer with 46, O’Driscoll also led his country more times than any other player and his brilliant defensive qualities and dazzling attacking skills made him a threat all over the field.

Has provided some magical memories with his hat-trick against France in Paris in 2000 and his wonderful solo try for the Lions against Australia in Brisbane the following year which evokes memories of the ‘Waltzing O’Driscoll’ song that epitomised the 2001 tour.

Also evoked controversy, most notably, Warren Gatland’s decision to leave him out of the final Lions Test in Sydney last summer. But BOD deserves to be remembered for what he was. One on the best.

2. Dan Carter (NZ)

Dan the man. He challenged for number one spot in our top 50 list, but was just edged into second place.

Runners-up position isn’t bad, though, for a player who has undoubtedly established himself as the greatest fly-half of the professional era.

Carter’s record speaks for itself. One hundred caps for New Zealand, a world Test record of 1,440 points.

Throw in a further 1547 points for the Crusaders and his impact on the game cannot be emphasised enough.

A prolific goal-kicker, a wonderful silky runner from 10 at his best, a masterful controller of matches at the very highest level.

Carter possesses the lot and has been unstoppable, a genuine match-winner.

The mercurial fly-half maestro made his international debut against Wales in Hamilton at the age of 21, although that night he played inside centre.

He quickly gave a sign of what was to come by scoring 20 points and to this day still regards that as his finest moment in rugby.

It was also against Wales in 2010, when he kicked a penalty from halfway at the Millennium Stadium, that Carter overtook Jonny WIlkinson as the world’s top point scorer.

Wilkinson momentarily took the record back in an England game against France, but Carter reclaimed it when playing against South Africa.

He averages almost 15 points a Test, the highest of any player in history who has scored more than 500 points.

One of his greatest performances came against Sir Clive Woodward’s Lions in 2005, when he completely outshone Jonny Wilkinson in their fly-half battle to lead New Zealand to an emphatic 48-18 triumph.

Carter scored two tries, five penalties, and four conversions and ended the match with33 points ... easily eclipsing the previous record of 18.

He is the greatest back of the professional era.

1. Richie McCaw (NZ)

You only have to look at the 49 names below Richie McCaw on this list to recognise what a legend the All Blacks captain has proved over the last decade or more.

The years are creeping up on the New Zealand openside but he remains one of the best No. 7s the world has ever seen.

If not the best. His work at the breakdown is so important to the way this All Blacks side plays.

When he forces turnovers, his teammates have the ability to turn them into points in the blink of an eye. Brave, athletic, quite outstanding exponent at the breakdown.

He’s big enough to take the boshes and the bashes around the breakdown, lithe and quick and skillful enough to link with any of the thousand sets of breathtaking backs the men in black might care to put out.

Lifting the 2011 World Cup in his backyard was a fitting tribute to one of the greatest All Blacks in history. It would have also been a fitting finale because the great man has nothing left to prove.

But he soldiers on and will win his 125th cap against England today having won 110 Test matches as an All Black.

In early 2013, McCaw took the option to sit out the early part of the Super XV to allow his 32-year-old body a break after a gruelling 2012. He came back for the play-offs and the start of the international season rejuvenated.

Injuries saw him play intermittently during the Rugby Championship, but his role in this All Blacks team was underlined by the haste with which Steve Hansen hurried him back to face the Springboks in that wonderful deciding Test in Johannesburg, where McCaw was outstanding.

As a captain, his cool head pervades throughout his team, and there is no one better at holding a conversation with the referee than McCaw. Kieran Read may be ready to take on the captaincy, but McCaw could have set an impossibly high bar.

The world’s best? We reckon so.

Yeah, the list should just list the fifty best All Blacks.

Well its a bit odd- London tiger says Fitzy isn't a modern player and was at the end of his career. Yet Fitzy often makes the best of all time lists- so he's good enough to make a best of all time- including all the 'modern' players but not a modern top 50.

Not that I care but is that actually logical?

I suppose it is when you consider Gareth Edwards- who often makes the no.1 spot of all time but wouldnt make it here (for more obvious reasons howeever).

Isn't subjectivity grand...

When does the 'modern era' begin? I guess if you're only counting from a certain year then you need to discount what that player achieved before that year and only count the level of player he was during the 'modern era'. Some players would be past their best by then.

Just went to the original article on Wales Online. It's more than 6 months old!

Calm down everyone it was a Welsh punter on a sub standard (Welsh) website.
Some peeps like bigging themselves up & insist everyone knows........

Biltong wrote:Yeah, the list should just list the fifty best All Blacks.

Close - the list should just list Sir Jonny of Wilkinson fifty times

Taylorman wrote:Well its a bit odd- London tiger says Fitzy isn't a modern player and was at the end of his career. Yet Fitzy often makes the best of all time lists- so he's good enough to make a best of all time- including all the 'modern' players but not a modern top 50.

Not that I care but is that actually logical?

I suppose it is when you consider Gareth Edwards- who often makes the no.1 spot of all time but wouldnt make it here (for more obvious reasons howeever).

Isn't subjectivity grand...

The readership of The Telegraph once voted Will Carling the greatest player to have thrown an oval ball...

maestegmafia wrote:The readership of The Telegraph once voted Will Carling the greatest player to have thrown an oval ball...

I think you'll need to provide some evidence for that claim, because I can't recall any such result.

Rugby Fan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The readership of The Telegraph once voted Will Carling the greatest player to have thrown an oval ball...

I think you'll need to provide some evidence for that claim, because I can't recall any such result.

Where did he throw it?

The main reason I`ve never subscribed much to these sort of posts is it is just a matter of opinion.For example open side flanker in the modern era for convenience say 1995 on,would include McCaw,Hooper,George Smith,Juan Smith,Hill,Back,Burger,Waugh,Pocock,Michael Jones to name a few[I know some of the boks wear 6 and play left/right].

To do even a smattering of getting it right your talking 10-20 for each position and then
some would be left out.

Taylorman wrote:Well its a bit odd- London tiger says Fitzy isn't a modern player and was at the end of his career. Yet Fitzy often makes the best of all time lists- so he's good enough to make a best of all time- including all the 'modern' players but not a modern top 50.

Not that I care but is that actually logical?

Would you consider him to be a "best of all time" based solely on his career in the professional era? So only look at what he did post RWC 95.

All completely irrelevant anyway as all such best player lists are completely and utterly meaningless in a team sport.

Not sure how you can shoe horn Scott Quinell and Gibbs onto the list and omit the first world player of the year Keith Wood. Seems a bit ridiculous. No?

I really liked Gibbs and Quinnell BTW.

Also I agree with the top five, McCaw, Carter, Drico, Joost and Lomu are easily the greatest players I have ever witnessed. I would be tempted to promote Eales to 6.

I'd have thought there should be a place for Os Du Randt as well, whose only mention appears to be that Scott Gibbs once ran into him.

80 caps, Tri Nations winner and the small matter of two World Cup wins 12 years apart - all in the "modern" era. Clearly he's no Gethin Jenkins, but still worth a mention I'd have thought.

emack2 wrote:The main reason I`ve never subscribed much to these sort of posts is it is just a matter of opinion.For example open side flanker in the modern era for convenience say 1995 on,would include McCaw,Hooper,George Smith,Juan Smith,Hill,Back,Burger,Waugh,Pocock,Michael Jones to name a few[I know some of the boks wear 6 and play left/right].

To do even a  smattering of getting it right your talking 10-20 for each position and then
some would be left out.

You missed out Robshaw

Actually just noticed Parisse at 6, which is waaaaaaaay too high for him

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd have thought there should be a place for Os Du Randt as well, whose only mention appears to be that Scott Gibbs once ran into him.

80 caps, Tri Nations winner and the small matter of two World Cup wins 12 years apart - all in the "modern" era. Clearly he's no Gethin Jenkins, but still worth a mention I'd have thought.

There isn't a prop close to Jenkins, but agree that big Os should be on the list (as long as he is at least 20 spots below Gethin)

Parisse is way way over rated.

He does a lot because he's the only one who is a class player in his team yet that doesn't make him a world class player. Picamoles tore him to shreds a while back and to be honest he's never made his opposite number look average.

All show.

Stands back for the counter kick rather than doing his job and getting turnovers in rucks.

Shane Williams. Good player for Wales but when did he do it on the World stage not just the European stage? A virtuoso try vs the boks in 08 certainly but it was only to show what could have been, not what was.

2 Lions tours and did badly on both. World cups... mixed at best.

In essence he was a poor man's Jason Robinson... a European player who would command respect amongst the very best wingers in pro rugby history (i.e. Lomu, Cullen, Caucau, Habana)... Williams is probably in the next grouping.

I would certainly agree that both Parisse and Williams are out of place in the top 10.

I like Jason Robinson but Williams deserves to be called a better player than Robinson because of his longevity and because he was a more potent try scorer which is generally how wingers are measured. Williams scored 60 international tries in 91 tests. That is a seriously impressive record. It doesnt matter that Robinson won a world cup and Williams didnt because Robinson played for the greatest England team of all time and Wales were usually poor by comparison yet Williams stood out a lot particularly in the second half of his career.

The placing of Jonno is ridiculous too.

Jonno, 2 times captain of the Lions. World cup winner, arguably the greatest 4 in history vying with his mentor for the title. 11..... should be top 5. Everyone knew, when he played... England was a real force, whenever he was injured, they were vunerable.... amazing given at the time the other locks were grewcock, shaw, kay... all capped lions.

Zinny was a pro for 2 seasons, top class player but he was an amateur era player like Fitzpatrick, Carling, Sella etc.

Who in the top 5 would you have him ahead of? Possibly Lomu but tough call.

I'd have Lomu as no.1 to be honest.

as a player not technically the best but no one could or can do what Lomu could do with a rugby ball. If he played today he would still be as lethal.

We won't see another player like him for 100 years.

To be honest it's very hard comparing a winger to a lock or a prop in terms of overall "greatness", and it's perhaps far easier to go position by position.

For example in my view Williams would not make a World XV of the modern era (2005 onwards say), however in my view Johnson and Eales would. Does that make them greater players? Best fullback I've ever seen was Christian Cullen (in my view), and yet there are two fullbacks ahead of him on the list (both of whom have won World Cups). Still, World Cups don't appear to mean much if Du Randt, one of the only players to have won two in the pro era, can't get past the likes of Quinnell, Genia or Pichot.

All very subjective. Personally I'd have Gregor Townsend at number one.....

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Not overly sure about Howley on that list and I would have put Jason Leonard in there as well.

Howley was a superb player in his day. Certainly deserves to be there as the best scrum half in the NH for a good few years

maes,

In my eyes to be classed as great you need to have been at that level for a very long time, yes Howley was very good but its wasn't for a prolonged period of his carear, 2-3 seasons at most IMO.

I'd agree that if there's no place for Du Randt, then there's no place for Howley. You already have Pichot, Du Preez, Genia, Joost and Marshall on the list. I can't help but feel the author is a scrum half!!

Good as Howley was, he was made of glass. I'm only half surprised that Wayne Proctor and Neil Boobyer aren't on the list as well!!

Just crazy that David Wallace isn't in the Top 50 - a couple of Lions tours, heineken cups & a grand slam, not to mention making the team of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup.

As for Shane Williams being above Doug Howlett - all time top try scorer for the All Blacks by the age of 27. Top try scorer in Super Rugby as well.

You could put it down to importance.

Jonno was literally the most important player on the pitch whether it was for the lions or England post say 95.
Lock is instrumental yes but what he brought to the field wasn't his ability as a lock. I mean in terms of ability Simon Shaw perhaps could have had an edge on him and had he been any other nationality he would have had 100 caps to his name.

His importance though was huge. When he played, England generally played well, without him, they struggled. They relied on him hugely.

Anyhow, people value greatness differently.

I recall in 1999 when Man Utd got the treble. For me Keane deserved the Ballon D'or but they gave it to Rivaldo for his technical ability. For me Man Utd the season before were average without him, with him they won everything and his importance in the side was undoubted. That's how I tend to go... ability and achievement... some like ability. I think that season Keane probably got 1 vote as FIFA is all about ability in their awards.

PS - no way shape or form a united or a keane fan.

Its not to say a great player in a poor side cannot be great, you just have to amend the goal posts a little to be subjective.

Sin é wrote:Just crazy that David Wallace isn't in the Top 50 - a couple of Lions tours, heineken cups & a grand slam, not to mention making the team of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup.

As for Shane Williams being above Doug Howlett - all time top try scorer for the All Blacks by the age of 27. Top try scorer in Super Rugby as well.

Great player, but I definitely wouldn't say crazy to leave him out. Bear in mind that top 50 should probably only include 6-8 flankers if they're being spread reasonably evenly. He's up against McCaw, Kaino, Elsom, G Smith, Dusatoir, M Williams, Hill, Back, Rodber, SOB etc, all of whom have similarly or at least as strong claims.

And Josh Kronfeld who I reckon should have made the list.

In terms of his position who have been the premier opensides in pro rugby..

SA - Burger
AUS - Smith, Waugh, Pocock
NZ - Kronfeld, McCaw
ENG - Back
FRA - Dusautoir

Would Wallace be close to parity amongst those players?

If we even compare him to Neil Back his home nations like for like you have to really question if his inclusion would have been valid? Back toured with the lions 3 times over 8 years and was capped in all 3 tours.

Saying a player went on a lions tour 3 times isn't the same as being capped in 3 different tours. With 40 odd players involved if you play for your country in a lions year you have near a 50% chance of getting on a lions series period.

Wallace was only ever capped on one tour. Deservedly (although I still think Jon Barclay was the premier 7 from the home nations in 2009).... but one good year doesn't make a career. Back for instance proved himself... even when England didn't like him... still toured and was capped by the Lions.

You could also make a case for Francois Pienaar (although personally I didn't rate him particularly as a player).

Still, if the benchmark is Scott Quinnell, fine player as he was, I think David Wallace has a case!

funnyExiledScot wrote:You could also make a case for Francois Pienaar (although personally I didn't rate him particularly as a player).

Still, if the benchmark is Scott Quinnell, fine player as he was, I think David Wallace has a case!

To be fair to him, Quinnell was a hell of a player. Lost his best years to league and wasn't the same athletic player when he came back but still was a force.

Played in a poor side yet still could bring it amongst the best.

That's the diff between him and Parisse... With Quinnell you always thought he even edged his one on ones which is all a player can do. With Parisse yes he takes the lineout, takes the kicks from deep.... but in the one on ones he is barely average. Am sure he'd take the kicks if his coach would allow him too.

Quinnell is easily, easily > Parisse. I'd take him every day of the week and twice on Sundays... perhaps not after he'd been to the pub mind!!!

funnyExiledScot wrote:You could also make a case for Francois Pienaar (although personally I didn't rate him particularly as a player).

Still, if the benchmark is Scott Quinnell, fine player as he was, I think David Wallace has a case!

Pienaar retired in 1996. Not really a pro test player. Had it been from  say 92 onwards then yeah defo. He meant so much to the boks. He gave them the belief and was far better than people credit him with.

Brussow for one or two seasons was up there with the best flankers I've ever seen as well. What's happened? Just never recovered from injury, or did he struggle when the breakdown interpretations changed?

thomh wrote:Brussow for one or two seasons was up there with the best flankers I've ever seen as well. What's happened? Just never recovered from injury, or did he struggle when the breakdown interpretations changed?

He had that 1 season when the ELVs rules near killed rugby. Those free kicks off every scrum were a joke.

So he was basically finished when they started requiring a release before competing for the ball then? I remember thinking certain flankers would suffer from it, but he has completely fallen off the radar.

That's pretty harsh on Parisse. He also has great hands and a wonderful offloading game. Sure, he does a lot of the show pony stuff and less graft than you might otherwise want to see, and if you're looking purely for a battering ram then Quinnell gets the nod, but I really don't think Quinnell has claim to be on the top 50 list (remember that Os du Randt didn't make it!) and I'd have him behind Parisse personally.

funnyExiledScot wrote:That's pretty harsh on Parisse. He also has great hands and a wonderful offloading game. Sure, he does a lot of the show pony stuff and less graft than you might otherwise want to see, and if you're looking purely for a battering ram then Quinnell gets the nod, but I really don't think Quinnell has claim to be on the top 50 list (remember that Os du Randt didn't make it!) and I'd have him behind Parisse personally.

In terms of an 8 though... I'd say Picamoles, Morgan, Vunipola, Faletau are superior even now. That's just in Europe.

You're looking at a clutch of young players coming through vs a 31 year old veteran of international rugby. This list is about the last 20 years of international rugby. It's not a current guide to form. Right now Carter wouldn't make my World XV, but I do not dispute that he's deserving of 2nd place on the list. Same with Adam Jones, Will Genia and several others on the list.

LondonTiger wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Well its a bit odd- London tiger says Fitzy isn't a modern player and was at the end of his career. Yet Fitzy often makes the best of all time lists- so he's good enough to make a best of all time- including all the 'modern' players but not a modern top 50.

Not that I care but is that actually logical?

Would you consider him to be a "best of all time" based solely on his career in the professional era? So only look at what he did post RWC 95.

All completely irrelevant anyway as all such best player lists are completely and utterly meaningless in a team sport.

yes I know its all pointless much in the same way that a player at the top of the game doesn't suddenly become a nobody just because the clock strikes 12 on a particular day. Leading the first series win over South Africa in 96 was huge, and there are more fingers on one hand than the number of players that have done that. All good...

Interesting as always. Just for interests sake assuming at least 3 players in each position make it in, who would be your 3 hookers? (there's one listed here I think - John Smit).

Here's a list of the players who have played at least 20 tests since the 95 world cup (from the current 6 nations and RC nations)

JW Smit (SA)
KF Mealamu (NZ)
R Ibanez (Fra)
GC Bulloch (Lions/Scot)
ST Moore (Aust)
ME Ledesma Arocena (Arg)
RW Ford (Lions/Scot)
RD Best (Ire)
LL Ghiraldini (Italy)
SG Thompson (Eng/Lions)
KGM Wood (Ire/Lions)
AD Oliver (NZ)
M Rees (Lions/Wales)
AK Hore (NZ)
F Ongaro (Italy)
D Szarzewski (Fra)
BW du Plessis (SA)
MA Foley (Aust)
A Moscardi (Italy)
DM Hartley (Eng)
FE Mendez Azpillaga (Arg)
W Servat (Fra)
J Dalton (SA)
JA Paul (Aust)
MP Regan (Eng/Lions)
JS Byrne (Ire/Lions)
RC McBryde (Wales)
GR Jenkins (Wales)
C Festuccia (Italy)
BJ Cannon (Aust)
JP Flannery (Ire)
ST Polota-Nau (Aust)
H Bennett (Wales)
JM Humphreys (Wales)
R Cockerill (Eng)
JA Strauss (SA)
DM Davies (Wales)
SBT Fitzpatrick (NZ)

Smit, Fitzpatrick and Wood.

fa0019 wrote:In terms of his position who have been the premier opensides in pro rugby..

SA - Burger
AUS - Smith, Waugh, Pocock
NZ - Kronfeld, McCaw
ENG - Back
FRA - Dusautoir

Would Wallace be close to parity amongst those players?

If we even compare him to Neil Back his home nations like for like you have to really question if his inclusion would have been valid? Back toured with the lions 3 times over 8 years and was capped in all 3 tours.

Saying a player went on a lions tour 3 times isn't the same as being capped in 3 different tours. With 40 odd players involved if you play for your country in a lions year you have near a 50% chance of getting on a lions series period.

Wallace was only ever capped on one tour. Deservedly (although I still think Jon Barclay was the premier 7 from the home nations in 2009).... but one good year doesn't make a career. Back for instance proved himself... even when England didn't like him... still toured and was capped by the Lions.

Wallace was selected in the ERC dream team of the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup*, ahead of Back, Martyn Williams (who got the ERC European Fair Play winner) and Dusautoir. He missed the 05 Lions Tour as he was injured for most of that year. The 2001 Lions tour was always going to be difficult to break into for a flanker whose career was only starting (i.e., Sean O'Brien found it difficult to break into last Lions Tour).

*Judging panel was: The nine-man ERC15 selector panel included Ian McGeechan, Lawrence Dallaglio, Ieuan Evans, Fabien Galthie, Donal Lenihan, Michael Lynagh, Stuart Barnes, Stephen Jones and Jacques Verdier.

I'd still put Wallace behind McCaw and Smith certainly. Very much on a par with Back and Williams though. Little to separate that trio.

I haven't seen that award, but won't it have been heavily decided specifically on their involvement with HC victories? Martyn Williams wouldn't have been an appropriate selection for that, for example, but for a general greatest player list it could be different.

Assuming he's being judged solely as an openside (could also play blind IIRC?), and only 3 or 4 of them make the list, then he'd have to beat quite a few of McCaw, Smith, Burger, Back, Kronfeld, Pocock, Waugh, Dusatoir, SOB etc. I suppose you could make an argument for him, but surely it's not crazy as you suggested to leave him out?

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd still put Wallace behind McCaw and Smith certainly. Very much on a par with Back and Williams though. Little to separate that trio.

Wallace had phenomenal strength and pace. Also had an amazingly good disciplinary record for an openside (4 yellow cards - 2 for club and 2 internationally over his career).

He was selected ahead of Back & Williams for ERC awards which they would have been eligible for. He was also selected ahead of Williams for the Lions tour to SA. I didn't claim he would have been ahead of McCaw (No. 1 in the world) - he should be in the top 50 players of the professional era.

thomh wrote:I haven't seen that award, but won't it have been heavily decided specifically on their involvement with HC victories? Martyn Williams wouldn't have been an appropriate selection for that, for example, but for a general greatest player list it could be different.

Assuming he's being judged solely as an openside (could also play blind IIRC?), and only 3 or 4 of them make the list, then he'd have to beat quite a few of McCaw, Smith, Burger, Back, Kronfeld, Pocock, Waugh, Dusatoir, SOB etc. I suppose you could make an argument for him, but surely it's not crazy as you suggested to leave him out?

Back & Dusatoir both played for very successful teams in the Heineken Cup and he was selected ahead of them. Martyn Williams did get selected for an award in that tournament. (by the way, from what I can see, Martyn Williams has never been on a Wales side that has defeated one of the big 3).

Wally played all 3 backrow positions (and also played on the wing for Munster once)!

Again just opinion Martin Johnson best 4 EVER?impotant to England yes?a RWC,a couple
Lions tours.Meads was certainly better so probably was Willie John McBride 5 Lions tours
4 as a player one as a manager.

How can any list not have the most gifted player to ever grace a rugby field on it?

Carlos the king.

Adam Jones - yer havin a laff

Sin é wrote:

thomh wrote:I haven't seen that award, but won't it have been heavily decided specifically on their involvement with HC victories? Martyn Williams wouldn't have been an appropriate selection for that, for example, but for a general greatest player list it could be different.

Assuming he's being judged solely as an openside (could also play blind IIRC?), and only 3 or 4 of them make the list, then he'd have to beat quite a few of McCaw, Smith, Burger, Back, Kronfeld, Pocock, Waugh, Dusatoir, SOB etc. I suppose you could make an argument for him, but surely it's not crazy as you suggested to leave him out?

Back & Dusatoir both played for very successful teams in the Heineken Cup and he was selected ahead of them. Martyn Williams did get selected for an award in that tournament. (by the way, from what I can see, Martyn Williams has never been on a Wales side that has defeated one of the big 3).

You're wrong about Martyn Williams unfortunately, pal. Didn't we all just know that somehow this would turn into a 'slag off the Wales players' thread, all threads seem to go that way these days.

Also, you've a point about Wallace. I reckon he was definitely one of the best in the world, and carried equal if not, greater importance for that Ireland team than BOD himself. He was a 7 that had it all, you don't get many of those nowadays.