Review/Discussion of the state of the England team

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Just a quick review/discussion on the status of the England team.  Not necessarily a complete analysis but I sure others will fill in the missing gaps and provide their own views.

England were very disappointing and stalled during the Autumn Internationals. Without a dominance scrum they could very easy have lost to Australia.

FORWARDS:

Generally went well, but England should not complacent as next up is Wales away at the MS, where they were bullied last time.

If Corbisiero and Cole can regain form and fitness, England will be strong at prop.  Brookes quietly improving with some younger guys waiting in the wings.

Hooker seems to be a weak area though, Webber did not look wonderful over the week-end.  Hartley a bit undisciplined.

Quite a good groups of locks, but I would still prefer an Attwood or Slater type.  Occasionally Lawes and Launchbury look a little light-weight.  Also though competition is very tight, I would like to have seen how Kitchener would fare.

Backrow is a point of discussion and debate.  The number eights look good with Vunipola coming back to form and future options in Ewers and others (Hughes?).  I think Robshaw almost always plays well but I would not mind seeing Garvey at blindside, to do the tight stuff and allow the other back five forwards to excel in the loose.


BACKS:

Not totally bleak but how to get them playing?

Fullback seems set with Brown and I wonder if Watson should be seen as his successor.

Scrum-half is fairly well served by Youngs and Care if he can recover his form.  Also Simpson can look a good player?

Fly-half is well stocked with Ford, Farrell, Myler and Cips.  Indeed at the week-end I thought Myler had a great game.

At wing there are lots of options in May, Watson, Rokoduguni, Nowell, Wade, Yarde and Benjamin has come on a bit as well. I would love to see Wade get a go sometime.

Centre has been a problem which is annoying has there seems to be talent available.  Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Barritt, Slade, Twelvestrees, etc. all seem good players

So if everyone was fit and on Form, I would go with: -

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Garvey
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

Would definitely have Lawes on the bench in case the line went belly-up. Have not yet found room for Wade but would have Eastmond on the bench.  However in most positions there is a lot of competition, so sometimes the choice could go either way.
Perhaps England’s real weakness is having several good players (with the sum being better than the parts), but with very few world class options.

Its part of the reason why I like Webber, he really does deliver some thumping hits, was another cracking one early on against Glasgow where he dislodged the ball 5m away from his try line

Will Barritt play? The big question isnt about 1 or 2 players but whether we re phased again. We looked shocked last time and let Wales and some decisions rattle us.

BamBam wrote:Its part of the reason why I like Webber, he really does deliver some thumping hits, was another cracking one early on against Glasgow where he dislodged the ball 5m away from his try line

Same. I think he's a cracking player. He does everything well- carrying, tackling, jackling. It's just the lineout that he wobbles with occasionally.I honestly wouldn't mind seeing his name on the team sheet to start, but SL clearly sees him as 3rd choice.

So we don't know about Wood, Eastmond and Farrell, but it does appear that Parling is defo out for the Wales game and possibly longer. SL would probably have Wood starting and Farrell on the bench, but I am not convinced he would have picked Eastmond. Then you add in Jamie Roberts good form for Racing on against Burrell and Northampton and it all makes a case for the refreshed Barritt starting at 12 with perhaps JJ at 13. Harsh to drop anyone on the basis of a single game, but Burrell may pay for that defeat?

I think therefore that SL will go with:

Marler
Youngs (Hartley pays for another yellow)
Wilson
Attwood
Kruis (would prefer Kitchner)
Wood or Haskell if injured
Vunipola
Robshaw
Youngs
Ford
Barritt
JJ
May
Watson
Brown

Bench
Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Kitchner
Haskell but Easter if Wood unfit
Wigglesworth
Farrell and Cipriani if unfit
Nowell

To be honest I think Wales at home will be licking their lips. No bearing on the RWC game, but clearly with England missing 3 2nd rows and with Corbs and Cole yet to resume full match fitness and another new midfield combo a strong Wales at home should be able to take advantage.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Will Barritt play? The big question isnt about 1 or 2 players but whether we re phased again. We looked shocked last time and let Wales and some decisions rattle us.

I hope not but its a entirely different situation, even with these injuries. Last time England were in woeful form after scraping past Italy, Wood at 8, Brown on the wing. The occasion, going for the GS in Wales with a wild partisan crowd and opposition wound up to stop us. The scrummaging situation deflated the pack and we wilted under the pressure. A deserved gubbing. However, remenber the last opening Fri night game in Cardiff after all the supposed mind games and Hartley in the spot light??

hugehandoff wrote:

To be honest I think Wales at home will be licking their lips. No bearing on the RWC game, but clearly with England missing 3 2nd rows and with Corbs and Cole yet to resume full match fitness and another new midfield combo a strong Wales at home should be able to take advantage.

I'm not worried about the lack of Corbisiero and Cole. Marler and Wilson outscrummaged New Zealand and Australia in the Autumn, and we beat Wales with those two last year when Wilson wasn't really match fit. The absence of either Lawes or Launchbury is a bigger problem now I think. Attwood is excellent, but it leaves us slightly exposed losing both.

Is Rokodoguni injured/being rested/out of favor/discovered to be a relative of Shane Howarth….he was the Next Big Thing for at least a week.

Roko is injured

What is England's first choice team then?

you have my thoughts listed above already

Gwlad wrote:What is England's first choice team then?

Injury free, Lancaster's would probably be:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Wood/Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Barritt (?)
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15. Brown

Form and injuries have often stopped him getting anywhere near that though, and our back-up forwards have done well in the absence of some of these.

Surprised not yet posted here but just in case people havent heard Croft and Day have been pulled into the senior squad with Fearns and Gaskell into the saxons. This is to cover Wood and Parling who are injury doubts.

More news of Farrell and the rest expected tomorrow

lostinwales wrote:Surprised not yet posted here but just in case people havent heard Croft and Day have been pulled into the senior squad with Fearns and Gaskell into the saxons. This is to cover Wood and Parling who are injury doubts.

More news of Farrell and the rest expected tomorrow

Yep, got to imagine that Croft will be behind Clark and Haskell in the flanker stakes. Although he might thief a bench spot from either one of them. Knowing Lancaster we'll see Clark covering SR!!

I am a great fan of Croft, but he has such little game time this year and hasn't really done anything to get his place back, yet.

At this stage, Lancaster wants enough fit bodies available to make for effective training sessions. He sets great store by the ability to judge players when they go up against each other, but he can't do that if they aren't able to train, or if the players around them are below par.

In the Autumn, he left out a few players because knocks meant they couldn't train, even though they were fit by match time.

Just on the Croft topic, I would have Gibson ahead of him at the moment for that type of player, though I appreciate Gibson has less pace.

I've heard whispers elsewhere on the internet that Burrell and Barritt are struggling with injuries...

Cumbrian wrote:I've heard whispers elsewhere on the internet that Burrell and Barritt are struggling with injuries...

Both are unable to train. Barritt has a knee problem while Burrell was concussed and must clear all the protocols before he can take part.

At the moment. Joseph and Twelvetrees are the two men left standing but not a partnership to fill me with confidence. If it really does come down to those two because Burrell, Barritt, Edmonds and Farrell are out of consideration, I'd probably prefer to give Slade a go alongside Joseph.

I agree...Slade is a better option than Twelvetrees.
But you know that wont happen as Lancaster is so stubborn....he'll have Twelvetrees in there.

My starting team....
1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Kitchener
6 Garvey
7 Robshaw
8 B. Vunipola

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

By the time the first game comes around are we going to be able to actually field 15 players.

As talented as that back line is, putting them up against a motivated Roberts, Davies, North etc backline could be asking for trouble. Slade and Joseph both have the mentality and talent for it I think, but they're underexposed and it's the first game of World Cup year. Whatever 36's flaws, he at least knows what it's really about at this level.

Ideally Barritt would be back at 12. It must be Joseph's time at 13.

I would hope Barritt would be back thomh but we don't know yet.

Ford
Barritt
Joseph

gives you a very balanced midfield of defence and attack.

I would like a good look at slade in the Saxons game mind and if he shows well...he must be considered.

What Wales is going to turn up? they can be slow starters also. I think we have to go in expecting the same as 2 years ago, but in practice there have been plenty of flat Wales performances where they have looked sluggish and uninspired and just crept over the line.

Their last performance vs England at Cardiff was inspired, but they have only performed at that level a handful of times recently.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would hope Barritt would be back thomh but we don't know yet.

Ford
Barritt
Joseph

gives you a very balanced midfield of defence and attack.

I would like a good look at slade in the Saxons game mind and if he shows well...he must be considered.

I agree with all that, and I like Slade a lot. I was just talking about the prospect of going with all three of Ford, Slade and Joseph in the event that Barritt/Burrell are out. Seems like overkill to me.

They're always up for England though....in fact lets be honest its every countries biggest game of the season playing England

Aw yes its very inexperienced...and in an ideal world would not be chosen...unless maybe against a FIji or someone.

But the problem we potentially have is no Barritt, Burrell, Eastmond etc. So we have to go with the inexperience.
And I just have NO faith in Twelvetrees whatsoever.

Yeah I think we're asking a lot for Slade to step in at 12 (where he barely plays) against Roberts and co.

I like Slade a lot, he has a very good chance of being an international for many years but don't want to chuck him in too early against the wrong opponents.

Twelvetrees has at least 15kg on him too by the looks of them, although Slade is a tall lad so he could easily fill out over the next year or 2

GeordieFalcon wrote:They're always up for England though....in fact lets be honest its every countries biggest game of the season playing England  

With the scrum penalties not going their way Wales seemed pretty toothless vs us last year.

Twelvetrees has never been horrendous for England but isn't in great form. Not sure I'd want to throw Slade in at 12 though given as far as I'm aware he's never played their for his club.

So its Burgess at 12 then. Lets see Roberts run through him

No 7&1/2 wrote:...Not sure I'd want to throw Slade in at 12 though given as far as I'm aware he's never played their for his club.

Greenwood thinks he did, although he was writing back in September:

I have seen him play 10, 12, 15, and for the past few weeks at 13

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11122970/England-should-take-a-gamble-and-put-Henry-Slade-alongside-Manu-Tuilagi-at-centre.html

It can't have been long if he did. To be honest I'd rather throw Devoto in their than Slade but it's a bit early for both in my opinion.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:They're always up for England though....in fact lets be honest its every countries biggest game of the season playing England  

With the scrum penalties not going their way Wales seemed pretty toothless vs us last year.

It will be a huge game, and Wales will be up for it. But it's a French Ref this time... far less likely to turn the scrum into a Welsh penalty machine. Without the near certainty of being able to get territory or points every time there's a knock-on, it will be a much more even game.

Assuming we don't lose any more to injuries, the English pack will go well enough even depleted. Lock is the biggest concern but Attwood and Kruis are decent players. Second biggest concern is starting hooker. Without Parling, I hope that Youngs either starts, or doesn't make the 22. Third biggest concern is the composition of the back row, but it's really just a question of what will give the best balance against Wales. England have some good options available.

The big problem is 12. Assuming Barritt is out but Burrell can pass the return to play protocols, the only pairing with any experience left to us is 36/Burrell (which has worked well in the past). Is that better than, say, Burrell/Joseph, which offers more on form but lacks experience?

Slade wore 12 probably as much as 10 last season, and has ended up there a few times this season after substitutions (last weekend for example, when he started at 10). Exeter swap their backline around quite a bit, anyway, depending on where the setpiece is and whether attacking or defending.

Greenwood would have been lucky to see him at 15, though - he only played there a handful of times for Albion.

I'm wondering if Burrell is that much of a doubt, I'm no head injury expert but does it take two weeks to recover from a concussion? I know Parling was out for a long time but that was because of repeat concussions wasn't it?

i agree with lost.

burgess for 12 if barritt and burrell are injured. we need some oomph in the tackle area against wales.

Cumbrian wrote:I'm wondering if Burrell is that much of a doubt, I'm no head injury expert but does it take two weeks to recover from a concussion?

In the past, if a player hasn't fully taken part in training, then Lancaster has generally gone with those who have, even when they are fit for match day. That's one reason Burrell, Eastmond and Roko missed out on more caps in the Autumn.

For Burrell, then, it's probably not a question of whether he'll be cleared for Saturday week, but when he can start training. The BBC thinks this Friday is likely, which should put him in the frame.

Poorfour wrote  'But it's a French Ref this time... far less likely to turn the scrum into a Welsh penalty machine.'

I wouldn't be so sure.  This particular French ref (Garces) gave a stream of mostly unfathomable scrum penalties and free kicks to both sides in a match between the Ospreys and Saracens in December 2011.
Afterwards Garces was verbally lambasted by the coaches of both teams.

optimist wrote:Poorfour wrote  'But it's a French Ref this time... far less likely to turn the scrum into a Welsh penalty machine.'

I wouldn't be so sure.  This particular French ref (Garces) gave a stream of mostly unfathomable scrum penalties and free kicks in a match between the Ospreys and Saracens in December 2011.
Afterwards Garces was verbally lambasted by the coaches of both teams.

It isnt a great sign but 2011 is long time ago in rugby terms (and in terms of rugby laws)

lostinwales wrote:

optimist wrote:Poorfour wrote  'But it's a French Ref this time... far less likely to turn the scrum into a Welsh penalty machine.'

I wouldn't be so sure.  This particular French ref (Garces) gave a stream of mostly unfathomable scrum penalties and free kicks in a match between the Ospreys and Saracens in December 2011.
Afterwards Garces was verbally lambasted by the coaches of both teams.

It isnt a great sign but 2011 is long time ago in rugby terms (and in terms of rugby laws)

Maybe he's improved. I haven't followed his subsequent refereeing career. Lets's hope so  The two linesmen are also French.  One of them Roman Poite, is always strict at scrum time.  Will Garces take advice from him?  Who knows.

would take Garces over Walsh any day. far less ego. so he will listen to what his ARs are telling him about the scrum. Walsh ignored everything from the ARs and just decided it was Wales on top in the scrums. Completely missed gethin angling most scrums. was the worst scrum reffing i have seen in my life and england were never going to win if they were conceding pens at scrums with 1/2P as kicker.

england prob wouldnt have won even if walsh had got the scrums right. but it would have been nice to at least give us a chance.

Garces didn't seem to be control of the scrums at the Ospreys v saints game either.

quinsforever wrote:would take Garces over Walsh any day. far less ego. so he will listen to what his ARs are telling him about the scrum. Walsh ignored everything from the ARs and just decided it was Wales on top in the scrums. Completely missed gethin angling most scrums. was the worst scrum reffing i have seen in my life and england were never going to win if they were conceding pens at scrums with 1/2P as kicker.

england prob wouldnt have won even if walsh had got the scrums right. but it would have been nice to at least give us a chance.

Well, that's Walsh out of the way. I don't have much faith in most referees. Let's just see how Garces referees next Friday's game and hope he gets things right.

Breadvan wrote:Garces didn't seem to be control of the scrums at the Ospreys v saints game either.

lot better than walsh 2 years ago though! refs are focusing on the right things now...length of bind, how far back feet are at engagement, etc. clearly refs and the irb are very focused on it not being such a poopshow as 2013 clearly was. Walsh did not once ask an opinion of info from the AR on the other side about what was happening. idiotic and egotistical.

proof is that good scrummaging sides are not winning anything like as many penalties. viz owens and garces forcing sides to actually play the ball when its at the back even if the front rows then go down.

optimist wrote:

quinsforever wrote:would take Garces over Walsh any day. far less ego. so he will listen to what his ARs are telling him about the scrum. Walsh ignored everything from the ARs and just decided it was Wales on top in the scrums. Completely missed gethin angling most scrums. was the worst scrum reffing i have seen in my life and england were never going to win if they were conceding pens at scrums with 1/2P as kicker.

england prob wouldnt have won even if walsh had got the scrums right. but it would have been nice to at least give us a chance.

Well, that's Walsh out of the way. I don't have much faith in most referees. Let's just see how Garces referees next Friday's game and hope he gets things right.

its a pretty tough job. with so many players involved in contact all at the same time its pretty hard to get it spot on. just as long as they dont get it consistently wrong is about all we can ask for i suppose.

I'm not really replying to any one comment in particular (maybe quinsforever if anyone), but with so much talk here about how strapped we are in the centres (particularly 12), I think it's madness that people wouldn't at least consider Burgess.

Yes the obvious reluctance comes from the fact that he has only played a handful of games in this code, but let's be honest, he is an absolute world beater in league and the model professional sportsman. People have been making it out like he would have spent the whole summer since his switch purposefully avoiding watching rugby union, but he is the ultimate driven winner which means he would be meticulously studying union morning, noon and night since he knew he was moving to Bath.

If I'm not mistaken players like North and Cuthbert were thrown into the Wales team having played less than a full season of professional matches at the ages of 18/19, and that was without having achieved even a fraction of the things Burgess has in professional sport at this stage.

Would he be totally out of his depth if he were to start the game against Wales due to a severe injury crisis like this? I really doubt it - he is a special player regardless of inexperience in the technical aspects of the game. Of course he would make a few mistakes and need a bit of guidance from those around him, but he would certainly not let us down in attack or defense, and I have a lot more confidence in him than other players that have been fast-tracked in the past.

Breadvan wrote:Garces didn't seem to be control of the scrums at the Ospreys v saints game either.

Didn't see all of that game, but generally Garden is happy to accept a messy scrum as long as it's safe and the ball comes out. Poite aussi. Which is how it should be, IMO.

England generally do well under those circumstances, because their packs are strong and Rowntree has a similar philosophy

SuperGuinness, Burgess himself has said he underestimated how difficult the switch would be and how different the codes were. A hard but fair tackle in League is a potential yellow card in Union. The breakdown is completely different. It's like asking a tennis player to adapt overnight to squash.

Burgess has done well in the handful of games I've seen, but he's only just getting to grips with it. But it would be a huge risk to chuck him in at this point, especially with what would probably be a very inexperienced partner

SuperGuinness69 wrote:I'm not really replying to any one comment in particular (maybe quinsforever if anyone), but with so much talk here about how strapped we are in the centres (particularly 12), I think it's madness that people wouldn't at least consider Burgess.

Yes the obvious reluctance comes from the fact that he has only played a handful of games in this code, but let's be honest, he is an absolute world beater in league and the model professional sportsman. People have been making it out like he would have spent the whole summer since his switch purposefully avoiding watching rugby union, but he is the ultimate driven winner which means he would be meticulously studying union morning, noon and night since he knew he was moving to Bath.

If I'm not mistaken players like North and Cuthbert were thrown into the Wales team having played less than a full season of professional matches at the ages of 18/19, and that was without having achieved even a fraction of the things Burgess has in professional sport at this stage.

Would he be totally out of his depth if he were to start the game against Wales due to a severe injury crisis like this? I really doubt it - he is a special player regardless of inexperience in the technical aspects of the game. Of course he would make a few mistakes and need a bit of guidance from those around him, but he would certainly not let us down in attack or defense, and I have a lot more confidence in him than other players that have been fast-tracked in the past.

200% agree.

if he has a good game for the Saxons on Friday evening, and burrell/barritt are still not training, i would not be at all surprised to see him called up to the 6N squad, and maybe even start. Farrell Sr does seem to have Bomber's ear, and they have both publicly backed Burgess's ability to make the switch. Against Wales is the perfect game for Burgess. As i said a couple of weeks ago, he is custom built to play against Gatball. bish-bosh-meet-the-hitman...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30OjXw-niu8

Poorfour wrote:SuperGuinness,  Burgess himself has said he underestimated how difficult the switch would be and how  different the codes were.  A hard but fair tackle in League is a potential yellow card in Union.  The breakdown is completely different. It's like asking a tennis player to adapt overnight to squash.

Burgess has done well in the handful of games I've seen, but he's only just getting to grips with it. But it would be a huge risk to chuck him in at this point,  especially with what would probably be a very inexperienced partner

with respect, but that is rubbish. tennis players and squash players are not interchangeable in a lifetime, nevermind overnight. if there's anything we know about the modern game of union its that league players make excellent union players and often very quickly.

how many league players have england had in the Union side in the last 10 years? at a guess 15?