Review/Discussion of the state of the England team

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick review/discussion on the status of the England team.  Not necessarily a complete analysis but I sure others will fill in the missing gaps and provide their own views.

England were very disappointing and stalled during the Autumn Internationals. Without a dominance scrum they could very easy have lost to Australia.

FORWARDS:

Generally went well, but England should not complacent as next up is Wales away at the MS, where they were bullied last time.

If Corbisiero and Cole can regain form and fitness, England will be strong at prop.  Brookes quietly improving with some younger guys waiting in the wings.

Hooker seems to be a weak area though, Webber did not look wonderful over the week-end.  Hartley a bit undisciplined.

Quite a good groups of locks, but I would still prefer an Attwood or Slater type.  Occasionally Lawes and Launchbury look a little light-weight.  Also though competition is very tight, I would like to have seen how Kitchener would fare.

Backrow is a point of discussion and debate.  The number eights look good with Vunipola coming back to form and future options in Ewers and others (Hughes?).  I think Robshaw almost always plays well but I would not mind seeing Garvey at blindside, to do the tight stuff and allow the other back five forwards to excel in the loose.


BACKS:

Not totally bleak but how to get them playing?

Fullback seems set with Brown and I wonder if Watson should be seen as his successor.

Scrum-half is fairly well served by Youngs and Care if he can recover his form.  Also Simpson can look a good player?

Fly-half is well stocked with Ford, Farrell, Myler and Cips.  Indeed at the week-end I thought Myler had a great game.

At wing there are lots of options in May, Watson, Rokoduguni, Nowell, Wade, Yarde and Benjamin has come on a bit as well. I would love to see Wade get a go sometime.

Centre has been a problem which is annoying has there seems to be talent available.  Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Barritt, Slade, Twelvestrees, etc. all seem good players

So if everyone was fit and on Form, I would go with: -

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Garvey
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

Would definitely have Lawes on the bench in case the line went belly-up. Have not yet found room for Wade but would have Eastmond on the bench.  However in most positions there is a lot of competition, so sometimes the choice could go either way.
Perhaps England’s real weakness is having several good players (with the sum being better than the parts), but with very few world class options.

burrell
tomkins
farrell (sr)
hape
eastmond
robinson
ashton

ok maybe 15 is a little high...

henry paul
vainokolo
chev walker (saxons)
barrie john mather (1 cap in 1999)
stephen myler

Poorfour wrote:SuperGuinness,  Burgess himself has said he underestimated how difficult the switch would be and how  different the codes were.  A hard but fair tackle in League is a potential yellow card in Union.  The breakdown is completely different. It's like asking a tennis player to adapt overnight to squash.

Burgess has done well in the handful of games I've seen, but he's only just getting to grips with it. But it would be a huge risk to chuck him in at this point,  especially with what would probably be a very inexperienced partner

Quite frankly the prospect of him playing this early in his transition makes me very nervous. It is worth saying though that the most likely players either side of him would be the ones who know him best, Ford and Joseph.

Farrell out for the 6N

barritt out for a month. on another thread

In my opinion Barritt out is a blow.

but as he had hardly played any rugby since the Aussie game we are not missing that much. All players need sufficient game time to be properly match fit and Barritt is no exception. Considering that we are not losing a settled midfield we could still do alright. Burrell/Slade/36 and JJ would be ok or revert to the midfield that beat Wales last year....36 and Burrell?

That's a massive blow if true. 

Joseph has to start now surely, and looks like he'll be paired with 36 if Burrell is out. If Burrell's fit, I think we'll end up seeing a 36 and Burrell partnership. Who else is available? Ideally, I'd like to see Slade brought up from the Saxons.

I would never wish an injury on anyone, however this will give Ford a good run in the shirt and hopefully more emphasis on scoring tries to win games. I hope they put Cips on the bench.

Now Stuart just have the stones to pick JJ!! Watched him for Bath v Glasgow and he was effective in a team under pressure.

I don't even know who I would pick at 12 any more, I suppose by default it's Burrell but that makes me sad that there is no one to really challenge him.

He hasn't his best season, but Anthony Allen at Tigers?

12....make it an all bath 10-14....burgess or even devoto at 12

quinsforever wrote:burrell
tomkins
farrell (sr)
hape
eastmond
robinson
ashton
henry paul
vainokolo
chev walker (saxons)
barrie john mather (1 cap in 1999)
stephen myler

And out of that list, how many of them made a successful transition to International rugby?

Definitely not successful
Tomkins
Henry Paul
Chev Walker
Barrie John Mather

Arguably a bit successful
Vainikolo
Farrell Snr (might have done better but for his injuries)
Hape

Jury's out (at International level)
Eastmond
Myler

Definitely successful
Ashton (well, for a bit)
Burrell (pushing it a bit on both success and league, as he grew up playing union)
Robinson

It's not a great return - and the general trend is that centres have done worse than wings, and those who were rushed into the International game have done worse than those who spent longer at club level. The exceptions are just that, exceptional.

I'm not saying that Burgess won't make it, and he might even be worth chancing an arm on in the RWC. But to throw him into the cauldron of the Millennium Stadium, up against Jamie Roberts (who's similarly physical but much more savvy on the rules of the game), with an unfamiliar setup (he'll have spent all of three weeks in the England camp) is a recipe for disaster.

All of which said, the rate at which England centres are reporting in injured, Lancaster might not have much choice.

If they're fit:
10 Ford
12 Burrell
13 Joseph

Burrell didn't have the best game v Roberts but that doesn't mean much. He's a quality player and gives the backline some size.

I really hope we don't see 36 brought in...

GeordieFalcon wrote:If they're fit:
10 Ford
12 Burrell
13 Joseph

Burrell didn't have the best game v Roberts but that doesn't mean much. He's a quality player and gives the backline some size.

I really hope we don't see 36 brought in...

Yep I suspect that's what it will be. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Slade called up following the Saxons game if he plays well. He's a good training/bench option, I'd even be tempted to put him on the Bench for the Italy game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Burrell didn't have the best game v Roberts but that doesn't mean much. He's a quality player and gives the backline some size.

Given it seems he ended the game with concussion, that could go some way to explaining an off-performance.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Burrell didn't have the best game v Roberts but that doesn't mean much. He's a quality player and gives the backline some size.

Given it seems he ended the game with concussion, that could go some way to explaining an off-performance.

Something that people never seem to take account of. Ford regularly gets slated for his second half performance in the Amlin v Saints last year, without it being mentioned that he sustained a shoulder injury mid-game that required surgery.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Burrell didn't have the best game v Roberts but that doesn't mean much. He's a quality player and gives the backline some size.

Given it seems he ended the game with concussion, that could go some way to explaining an off-performance.

I'm sure Farrell Sr will be giving him some tackling tips! I'm not too worried about it because he is the best option but I wish he wasn't the only option. A creative ten with a good tactical kicking game, a bosher at 12 to get over the gain line and a rapier at 13 to exploit gaps and create some magic, come on people it's not that bad BRING IT ON!.

I'd be fine with Ford, Burrell, Joseph

I would back Burrell to learn from the errors he made against Racing, and not miss a tackle against Roberts this time round.

Its not like he has Ashtonitis and can't tackle full stop, I can't think of another shocking tackling performance (or at least not a high profile one)

Can't say i'd object to seeing 36 in there. Him and JJ together compliment each other, on paper, better than Barritt or Burrell. If Burrell doesn't train I can't see him making the team.

Having 2 threads on the same subject is kind of annoying!

I guess if 36 and JJ line up, 36 might go away from trying to be the creative centre and just concentrate on trucking it up and keeping it relatively simple, knowing that JJ is still there as a skilful option.

His best England game was against Scotland on his debut where he just attacked the gainline and put in the odd delayed pass, asking him to play wide passes etc is just asking for trouble on current form

36 was picked ahead of Burrell in the AIs. If Twelvetrees ever plays as poorly as Burrell did at the weekend I think it's fair to say we'll hear about it on the forum.

I reckon Ford, 36, JJ, with Burrell on the bench.

Burrell was injured for the training and first game in the AI. So 36 wasn't really picked ahead of him

So will cipriani be on the bench then? Could be a really interesting tournament with the Youngs and Care plus Ford and Cips all fighting it out.

HammerofThunor wrote:Burrell was injured for the training and first game in the AI. So 36 wasn't really picked ahead of him

He was available for the game 36 started I think.

DaveM wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Burrell was injured for the training and first game in the AI. So 36 wasn't really picked ahead of him

He was available for the game 36 started I think.

Yes, but he wasn't considered because he hadn't been part of training. In the past, Lancaster has set great store by that. Not always wisely, in my view. It was the main reason he had Wood playing number 8 two years ago rather than drafting in someone from outside.

yappysnap wrote:So will cipriani be on the bench then? Could be a really interesting tournament with the Youngs and Care plus Ford and Cips all fighting it out.

Or Myler. I'd love to see Cips, but I honestly think we'll see SL opt for Myler's consistency and game management.

bluestonevedder wrote:

yappysnap wrote:So will cipriani be on the bench then? Could be a really interesting tournament with the Youngs and Care plus Ford and Cips all fighting it out.

Or Myler. I'd love to see Cips, but I honestly think we'll see SL opt for Myler's consistency and game management.

As much as i would like to see Cips get back in the England squad.....I really think that Myler is the best of the two of them, so i would prefair Myler to start ot atleast Bench for the Wales game.

Cips? maybe give him a chance v Italy. (maybe)

With all the discussuion of injuries you guys mustn't lose sight that this is one place England have a real advantage - strength in depth - although losing first place players is a blow to any team at least you have some choice of backup - for example we scots only have 3 or 4 centres who will look OK in an international.

TJ wrote:With all the discussuion of injuries you guys mustn't lose sight that this is one place England have a real advantage - strength in depth - although losing first place players is a blow to any team at least you have some choice of backup - for example we scots only have 3 or 4 centres who will look OK in an international.

I agree England have more strength in depth than most teams. For instance England will have a bench front row as good as most countries starting front three. However you mentioned centres. I am not sure England have strength at all there and certainly not strength in depth.

i suspect your 5th / 6th choice centres are somewhat better than ours ;-) Even if your first choice aren't ;-) WE don't have a 5th choice centre apart from shlong

TJ wrote:i suspect your 5th / 6th choice centres are somewhat better than ours ;-) Even if your first choice aren't ;-)  WE don't have a 5th choice centre apart from shlong

I thought he was your back up 6

He's a monster* he can play anywhere








*cookie monster

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:With all the discussuion of injuries you guys mustn't lose sight that this is one place England have a real advantage - strength in depth - although losing first place players is a blow to any team at least you have some choice of backup - for example we scots only have 3 or 4 centres who will look OK in an international.

I agree England have more strength in depth than most teams. For instance England will have a bench front row as good as most countries starting front three.  However you mentioned centres. I am not sure England have strength at all there and certainly not strength in depth.

If Wilson and Cole are both out we won't.

Also Corbs has been struggling to get a start ahead of Waller for Saints since his latest return. Due to sheer number of injuries he is also yet to be truly tested in scrum against the best with the new law interpretations either.

King_Carlos, Corbs is ahead of Waller in the Saints pecking order, they have just been careful to not to let him over do it. Having said that Waller is good enough for just about any other countries squad so it just shows how much strength we have at LH. Most EQ TH in the AP are better than many of their international counterparts, even the kids coming through are taking experienced loosies apart these days.

Mon Dieu…England players dropping like flies. Maybe time to call the Gendarmerie and see if Armitage is available yet?