Well what an improved European Rugby format that is

First topic message reminder :

Round 6...

only 1 team has qualified for the quarter finals

as BOD said this evening - "this is unique. to have 11 teams still with a shot of making the quarter finals and only 1 team already qualified come round 6"

not a single dead rubber group come round 6. what a massive improvement that is on previous HC formats.

my picks for qualifiers. In order (first 4 get home quarters)

clermont
wasps
toulon
saints
toulouse (win group but not home QF)
RCM92
Saracens
Bath

NB - as a quins fan i admit that our group with leinster and wasps is the tightest. but i fancy wasps to deny leinster a LBP and thus qualification.

looks like a fair reflection of the actual quality of respective club rugby. without loaded draws by virtue of too many walkover matches.

geoff998rugby wrote:Maybe its me but I would like to thing I actually do understand, to a reasonable degree, the subtle differences with respect to Corsica, Basque country, Britanny, Wallons, Flemish, Catalonia, Sicily etc etc

We are all Europeans now and it is a simple matter of common courtesy to address other people correctly as they would wish to be addressed  

and did that come from your schooling? no. its cause you are obviously a culturally aware and sensitive person

Welshmushroom wrote:The way I see it the new format is a clear advantage to English and French sides.  Every Pool (5 down from the previous 6) contains 50% english teams or french in it.  The pools where for example english or french have 2 teams in it give them a greater chance of success to qualify.  It would be like having 2 Irish sides in one pool.  The odds of qualification improve.  Thats just maths.  In truth the English have increased the odds of qualification by increasing the number of runner up qualifiers from last year (3 up from 2).  

Anyone looking at the pools in ernest will know that given the final pool standings, the french are clearly the dominant force.  They topped 3 pools, Irish one, English one.  The fact 3 english sides qualified through runner up spots highlights my point.  I also dont see any of those second seed teams having any joy against the pool winners with home advantage.  

In truth the way money is going we may as well hand the European title to the french to duke out amongst themselves.  Even the english are kidding themselves if they think they will realistically challenge for it.  

In my opinion all the Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Italians had to do when forming this new tournament would have been to restrict the amount of non home grown nationals in the European Cup.  It would at least have put a stop to the french fielding multi national sides in the tournament and buying success.  Sadly as always our management didnt really have the foresight for that one.

how were they going to do that? as it became obvious, they needed the competition more than the english or french did. so they were never going to be able to impose terms that the AP or top14 disagreed with.

and anyway, i love watching Toulon play. professional sport is not a democracy. Toulon make a profit amazingly. and they play such incredible rugby with so many great players, that i dont see what there is not to like?

money alone doesnt buy success. rugby is littered with examples of that.

brennomac wrote:

Unfortunately the other Irish provinces probably can't aspire to any serious outside funding llke that provided by O'Brien for Leinster - unless rich Munstermen like JP McManus or Denis Brosnan give up on the horses or GAA, or the Cork merchant princes give up on the yachts and decided to put money into rugby instead.  

You do realise that Denis O'Brien was born in Cork. His right hand man, Lesley Buckley is from Cork and is on the Munster's Commercial Committee. Dermot Desmond is also from Cork. And to cap it all, Wasps new Irish owner was also born in Cork (though he grew up in Dublin).

Welshmushroom wrote:The way I see it the new format is a clear advantage to English and French sides.  Every Pool (5 down from the previous 6) contains 50% english teams or french in it.  

Sorry but how can you complain when on 20 teams you have 7 teams like the english (because they won the challenge cup) and we only have 6 teams.

Welshmushroom wrote:The way I see it the new format is a clear advantage to English and French sides.  Every Pool (5 down from the previous 6) contains 50% english teams or french in it.  The pools where for example english or french have 2 teams in it give them a greater chance of success to qualify.  It would be like having 2 Irish sides in one pool.  The odds of qualification improve.  Thats just maths.  In truth the English have increased the odds of qualification by increasing the number of runner up qualifiers from last year (3 up from 2).  

Anyone looking at the pools in ernest will know that given the final pool standings, the french are clearly the dominant force.  They topped 3 pools, Irish one, English one.  The fact 3 english sides qualified through runner up spots highlights my point.  I also dont see any of those second seed teams having any joy against the pool winners with home advantage.  

In truth the way money is going we may as well hand the European title to the french to duke out amongst themselves.  Even the english are kidding themselves if they think they will realistically challenge for it.  

In my opinion all the Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Italians had to do when forming this new tournament would have been to restrict the amount of non home grown nationals in the European Cup.  It would at least have put a stop to the french fielding multi national sides in the tournament and buying success.  Sadly as always our management didnt really have the foresight for that one.

How are French and English teams getting an advantage over Pro 12 teams? Also ther arent teams from England or France making up 50% of each group see 3 and 5.

quinsforever wrote:
how were they going to do that? as it became obvious, they needed the competition more than the english or french did. so they were never going to be able to impose terms that the AP or top14 disagreed with.

I would love to see the celts kick out us from the Champions cup.
And if you could to it for the 6 nations too.

Welshmushroom wrote:The way I see it the new format is a clear advantage to English and French sides.  Every Pool (5 down from the previous 6) contains 50% english teams or french in it.  The pools where for example english or french have 2 teams in it give them a greater chance of success to qualify.  It would be like having 2 Irish sides in one pool.  The odds of qualification improve.  Thats just maths.  In truth the English have increased the odds of qualification by increasing the number of runner up qualifiers from last year (3 up from 2).  

The new format gives no advantage to an English or French side. To qualify for the quater finals they must win their group or be one of the top three runners up. that is exactly the same as any other team.

If you mean that there is a higher chance of an English club qualifying than an Irish team because there are six or seven of them rather than three Irish then that is obvious. Are you seriously suggesting that the English and French should not have more entries given their relative populations and number of professional sides?

Under the previous system certain teams did have an advantage in that they could rest players safe in the knowledge that European qualification was guaranteed in some cases and virtually guaranteed in others.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Anyone looking at the pools in ernest will know that given the final pool standings, the french are clearly the dominant force.  They topped 3 pools, Irish one, English one.  The fact 3 english sides qualified through runner up spots highlights my point.  I also dont see any of those second seed teams having any joy against the pool winners with home advantage.  

Of course the French are the dominant force, followed by English, then Irish, then Scots and Italians.

You may be right about English teams all losing their quarter finals but what is your point?  The English teams need to get better.  

Welshmushroom wrote:
In truth the way money is going we may as well hand the European title to the french to duke out amongst themselves.  Even the english are kidding themselves if they think they will realistically challenge for it.  

In my opinion all the Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Italians had to do when forming this new tournament would have been to restrict the amount of non home grown nationals in the European Cup.  It would at least have put a stop to the french fielding multi national sides in the tournament and buying success.  Sadly as always our management didnt really have the foresight for that one.

I am pretty sure your proposal is illegal under European law. Virtually all the players playing can play for any team because they are EU citizens or are entitled under the Kolpak ruling.

In any event what were the chances of the French (or English) teams agreeing to play in a competition where the opposition can restrict your right to pick your own team.  The French and English have a successful league. They could survive without the European Cups. The Pro12 teams probably could not which explains why they folded in the end.

shuren34 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
how were they going to do that? as it became obvious, they needed the competition more than the english or french did. so they were never going to be able to impose terms that the AP or top14 disagreed with.

I would love to see the celts kick out us from the Champions cup.
And if you could to it for the 6 nations too.

From what I recall, the French were more than happy to dump the English (chair of ERC was French). It was just Bill Beaumont and Richie got down on their hands and knees and begged the others to keep England in the competition as it would be a disaster for English rugby. Then the PRL had to get BT to bribe the Scots and the Welsh.

The French clubs couldn't give two tosses about anything except themselves.

Exiledinborders wrote:
I am pretty sure your proposal is illegal under European law. Virtually all the players playing can play for any team because they are EU citizens or are entitled under the Kolpak ruling.

In any event what were the chances of the French (or English) teams agreeing to play in a competition where the opposition can restrict your right to pick your own team.  The French and English have a successful league. They could survive without the European Cups. The Pro12 teams probably could not which explains why they folded in the end.

Kiwis or Australians are not Kolpak players. Neither are Argentinians. The French already have a ruling about limiting the numbers of non-EU or Kolpac players. It happened a few times when Toulon had to leave Felipe Contemponi in the stands.

South Africans, Fijians, Tongans, Samoans are all Kolpak.

Sin é wrote:

shuren34 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
how were they going to do that? as it became obvious, they needed the competition more than the english or french did. so they were never going to be able to impose terms that the AP or top14 disagreed with.

I would love to see the celts kick out us from the Champions cup.
And if you could to it for the 6 nations too.

From what I recall, the French were more than happy to dump the English (chair of ERC was French). It was just Bill Beaumont and Richie got down on their hands and knees and begged the others to keep England in the competition as it would be a disaster for English rugby.  Then the PRL had to get BT to bribe the Scots and the Welsh.

The French clubs couldn't give two tosses about anything except themselves.

Our union yes, they were on the celtic side and wanted to let the English alone. Our club didn't want it, but were threatened by our union to do it.
Finally you're right the French clubs are doing what is good for us only, like the Welsh and the Scottish when they betrayed you.
That's why we have the most powerful league in the north and maybe the world: we can survive without anyone.
In the past you let us alone and isolated but we survived. And we learned the lesson.

Sin é wrote:

shuren34 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
how were they going to do that? as it became obvious, they needed the competition more than the english or french did. so they were never going to be able to impose terms that the AP or top14 disagreed with.

I would love to see the celts kick out us from the Champions cup.
And if you could to it for the 6 nations too.

From what I recall, the French were more than happy to dump the English (chair of ERC was French). It was just Bill Beaumont and Richie got down on their hands and knees and begged the others to keep England in the competition as it would be a disaster for English rugby.  Then the PRL had to get BT to bribe the Scots and the Welsh.

Precisely. The PRL had promised BT Euro Rugby and they HAD to deliver. They had their bluff called and only got their way when the Scots caved in (due to bribes from PRL/BT)

Being Union owned and having no commitments to TV, the Irish would probably have survived at least as well as the English in the short term, and unless there was a resolution we were all focked in the longer term (bar the French)

Bein sports have reported less than 50000 average viewers for Euro games btw. That and the state of the challenge cup show how little the French clubs (bar the very top ones) care about Euro Rugby. Castres and Montpelier didn't bother their holes either.

keeping in mind that BeIn is a new comer in the rugby broadcasting world and also shows all games , it could be worst than 50,000 in average.

shuren34 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

shuren34 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
how were they going to do that? as it became obvious, they needed the competition more than the english or french did. so they were never going to be able to impose terms that the AP or top14 disagreed with.

I would love to see the celts kick out us from the Champions cup.
And if you could to it for the 6 nations too.

From what I recall, the French were more than happy to dump the English (chair of ERC was French). It was just Bill Beaumont and Richie got down on their hands and knees and begged the others to keep England in the competition as it would be a disaster for English rugby.  Then the PRL had to get BT to bribe the Scots and the Welsh.

The French clubs couldn't give two tosses about anything except themselves.

Our union yes, they were on the celtic side and wanted to let the English alone. Our club didn't want it, but were threatened by our union to do it.
Finally you're right the French clubs are doing what is good for us only, like the Welsh and the Scottish when they betrayed you.
That's why we have the most powerful league in the north and maybe the world: we can survive without anyone.
In the past you let us alone and isolated but we survived. And we learned the lesson.

Still, the FFR have a strong control on the clubs. The way the French clubs are behaving, it wouldn't surprise me if Rugby Union ended up like Rugby League in the not too distant future. Our only hope is for New Zealand to stay strong.

edit: France is dominating world rugby politics and has for a while (chair of the IRB). They have Joel Jutze as Head Referee. It could all change shortly though with a new IRB Chairman

Sin é wrote:

Still, the FFR have a strong control on the clubs. The way the French clubs are behaving, it wouldn't surprise me if Rugby Union ended up like Rugby League in the not too distant future. Our only hope is for New Zealand to stay strong.

Officially yes, but the main problem for the FFR is: it don't have money. And money is .
New Zealand to stay strong? It would be difficult if we continue to grow. There are talks to make a Top 16 and some speak about a closed league like the NBA. If that happens you could say good bye to the mighty all black.
PS: I wouldn't call it dominating the world rugby politics with these men of straw.

shuren34 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

shuren34 wrote:

Still, the FFR have a strong control on the clubs. The way the French clubs are behaving, it wouldn't surprise me if Rugby Union ended up like Rugby League in the not too distant future. Our only hope is for New Zealand to stay strong.

Officially yes, but the main problem for the FFR is: it don't have money. And money is .
New Zealand to stay strong? It would be difficult if we continue to grow. There are talks to make a Top 16 and some speak about a closed league like the NBA. If that happens you could say good bye to the mighty all black.

If the FFR wanted to take on the French Clubs, they would have the backing of World Rugby who do have money. Whatever you end up playing in France, it won't be Rugby Union. Ask South Africa what the isolation years were like?

FFR taking on the french clubs.

you live in cloud cuckoo land sin e.

who pays all the players in France?

and if there was a split, unfortunately for the rest of the world, the french clubs would do just fine. they generate 50% of the total world rugby club revenues. without selling their overseas rights for anything. that is the size of the french domestic club market and tv value.

not even the dumbasses at the FFR are that dumb.

quinsforever wrote:FFR taking on the french clubs.

you live in cloud cuckoo land sin e.

who pays all the players in France?

and if there was a split, unfortunately for the rest of the world, the french clubs would do just fine. they generate 50% of the total world rugby club revenues. without selling their overseas rights for anything. that is the size of the french domestic club market and tv value.

not even the dumbasses at the FFR are that dumb.

Yes, the French are contributing massively to the pension funds of plenty of players, most of them not French so of no use to the FFR.
If the French clubs are not playing rugby union, they are not going to attract the Dan Carter & Mama N'onu's who will just as happily collect their pension fund in Japan.

Sin é wrote:If the FFR wanted to take on the French Clubs, they would have the backing of World Rugby who do have money. Whatever you end up playing in France, it won't be Rugby Union. Ask South Africa what the isolation years were like?

But the power of FFR on LNR is given by our government.
Did you know how many people the clubs employ? We have two professional level: top 14 and pro d2: 30 clubs.
So I'm sure our government will let FFR destroy the LNR when the fans are on the LNR side with more than a century of existence.
And the relation between our government and the FFR are already awful because of the new stadium.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:FFR taking on the french clubs.

you live in cloud cuckoo land sin e.

who pays all the players in France?

and if there was a split, unfortunately for the rest of the world, the french clubs would do just fine. they generate 50% of the total world rugby club revenues. without selling their overseas rights for anything. that is the size of the french domestic club market and tv value.

not even the dumbasses at the FFR are that dumb.

Yes, the French are contributing massively to the pension funds of plenty of players, most of them not French so of no use to the FFR.
If the French clubs are not playing rugby union, they are not going to attract the Dan Carter & Mama N'onu's who will just as happily collect their pension fund in Japan.

if those players are finished with their international careers, they will absolutely join the top14. even if it meant they can never go back. [see my point below for the reality though]

and eventually, top players who are half way through their international careers will follow the money, and not look back.

you are utterly deluded if you think isolating the top14 is going to do anything.

and by the way, it would be illegal to prevent players moving between codes. it only worked in cricket because it was amateur vs professional. and it only worked in rugby union vs rugby league because it was amateur vs professional. and in SA's case it was only a refusal to play internationals against them (still only amateur).

there is no employment you can be legally barred from in the EU as a result of having worked for someone else. players would still be able to move around. its just the the European Cup would become a joke as i cant imagine the English clubs bothering if the French clubs didnt.

Sin é wrote:

Yes, the French are contributing massively to the pension funds of plenty of players, most of them not French so of no use to the FFR.
If the French clubs are not playing rugby union, they are not going to attract the Dan Carter & Mama N'onu's who will just as happily collect their pension fund in Japan.

First 55% of our players are french, so most of them are french.
And if you want to ban us from rugby union, you will help us a lot.
We will have to change 2 or 3 law, create a new sport and we wouldn't have to follow the IRB law. Which mean we could have the player all of the time. No international games, and it wouldn't stop players leaving the SH.
It would be like SBW when he left the NRL. A new contratc in a new sport.

here's a thought. if the FFR and World Rugby tried to put any kind of pressure on the top14, then the top14 could just scrap their salary cap, and really start poaching all the top ABs and Sprinboks who are at the top of their game. Quadruple their salaries and dont release them for international duty.

viewing figures up in France

viewing figures down everywhere else.

going down that path, if top14 add 2 more teams, and raise the drawbridges, then they could really aim to become the NFL of rugby. everything else would be massively second-tier.

because that is the reality of their commercial clout. of course i hope it wont happen. but thats also why the FFR is toothless.

shuren34 wrote:

Sin é wrote:If the FFR wanted to take on the French Clubs, they would have the backing of World Rugby who do have money. Whatever you end up playing in France, it won't be Rugby Union. Ask South Africa what the isolation years were like?

But the power of FFR on LNR is given by our government.
Did you know how many people the clubs employ? We have two professional level: top 14 and pro d2: 30 clubs.
So I'm sure our government will let FFR destroy the LNR when the fans are on the LNR side with more than a century of existence.
And the relation between our government and the FFR are already awful because of the new stadium.

Look, you didn't like it when you were not allowed play in the 4Ns (and you are still resentful of that). You won't like it if the All Blacks don't play against you.

Take Serge Blanco, do you think he would like French rugby to be isolated from other countries? I think you are a bit quick to decide that club rugby is only relevant. There seems to be a huge demand for international rugby in France (from looking at international games).

You haven't answered my question about how South Africa fared during their isolation?

it's not french club rugby that would be in isolation. they would have the vast majority of the worlds best players.

hence why they would happily scrap the wage cap, bring in all the best talent, and pull up the drawbridges and stick 2 fingers up at all the other unions including their own.

to answer your question about SA, their club rugby was completely unaffected. they lagged begind at intl level some of the developments once the game started to turn professional. caught up pretty quickly winning RWC in 1995 though.

but financially no-one was affected...because....the whole game was AMATEUR then.

Sin é wrote:

Look, you didn't like it when you were not allowed play in the 4Ns (and you are still resentful of that). You won't like it if the All Blacks don't play against you.

Not resentful, because I wasn't born. But we (the french) learned the lesson, there is no friend in politics and even more in business.

Sin é wrote:Take Serge Blanco, do you think he would like French rugby to be isolated from other countries? I think you are a bit quick to decide that club rugby is only relevant. There seems to be a huge demand for international rugby in France (from looking at international games).

Huge demand in international rugby in France? It's the opposite. The FFR have more and more problems to sell its ticket. 5 years it was very difficult to buy tickets if you didn't have connections or a lot of money to spend. But now each time France play, my mail is full of adverts from the FFR. And no tv channel wanted to buy the last tours because no one watch these games.
A lot of french fans even want to remove the 6 nations when it's a world cup year.
You're totally wrong on this subject.
PS: Blanco love the FFR, but he love even more his club Biarritz.

Sin é wrote:You haven't answered my question about how South Africa fared during their isolation?  

They survived and even won a world cup in 95.
Of course it was difficult for them, but they didn't have the money we have now. Ban us if you want but it will not stop us buying players (au contraire), and you will affect the 6 nations, a important competition for your union's finances.

quinsforever wrote:here's a thought. if the FFR and World Rugby tried to put any kind of pressure on the top14, then the top14 could just scrap their salary cap, and really start poaching all the top ABs and Sprinboks who are at the top of their game. Quadruple their salaries and dont release them for international duty.

viewing figures up in France

viewing figures down everywhere else.

going down that path, if top14 add 2 more teams, and raise the drawbridges, then they could really aim to become the NFL of rugby. everything else would be massively second-tier.

because that is the reality of their commercial clout. of course i hope it wont happen. but thats also why the FFR is toothless.

Only Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont and Racing have that kind of spending power. Everyone else simply don't have the crowd numbers (Castres, Grenoble, Brive and Bayonne all between 10-15k) and financial backing to compete if there was no salary cap.

If you even look at the likes of Inter Milan ( 46,246 average attedence) whose revenues I'm sure would dwarf most if not all Top 14 clubs, can only manage to give top contracts worth around 5 million euro. So there is no chance that Top14 clubs could Quadruple their salaries.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

quinsforever wrote:here's a thought. if the FFR and World Rugby tried to put any kind of pressure on the top14, then the top14 could just scrap their salary cap, and really start poaching all the top ABs and Sprinboks who are at the top of their game. Quadruple their salaries and dont release them for international duty.

viewing figures up in France

viewing figures down everywhere else.

going down that path, if top14 add 2 more teams, and raise the drawbridges, then they could really aim to become the NFL of rugby. everything else would be massively second-tier.

because that is the reality of their commercial clout. of course i hope it wont happen. but thats also why the FFR is toothless.

Only Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont and Racing have that kind of spending power. Everyone else simply don't have the crowd numbers (Castres, Grenoble, Brive and Bayonne all between 10-15k) and financial backing to compete if there was no salary cap.

If you even look at the likes of Inter Milan ( 46,246 average attedence) whose revenues I'm sure would dwarf most if not all Top 14 clubs, can only manage to give top contracts worth around 5 million euro. So there is no chance that Top14 clubs could Quadruple their salaries.

they could quadruple the salaries of the centrally contracted ABs. who are on a lot less than Dan Carter will be, Giteau is, or Mowen will be (who quit international rugby after a year as captain of Australia aged 29!), to name but a few.

quinsforever wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

quinsforever wrote:here's a thought. if the FFR and World Rugby tried to put any kind of pressure on the top14, then the top14 could just scrap their salary cap, and really start poaching all the top ABs and Sprinboks who are at the top of their game. Quadruple their salaries and dont release them for international duty.

viewing figures up in France

viewing figures down everywhere else.

going down that path, if top14 add 2 more teams, and raise the drawbridges, then they could really aim to become the NFL of rugby. everything else would be massively second-tier.

because that is the reality of their commercial clout. of course i hope it wont happen. but thats also why the FFR is toothless.

Only Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont and Racing have that kind of spending power. Everyone else simply don't have the crowd numbers (Castres, Grenoble, Brive and Bayonne all between 10-15k) and financial backing to compete if there was no salary cap.

If you even look at the likes of Inter Milan ( 46,246 average attedence) whose revenues I'm sure would dwarf most if not all Top 14 clubs, can only manage to give top contracts worth around 5 million euro. So there is no chance that Top14 clubs could Quadruple their salaries.

they could quadruple the salaries of the centrally contracted ABs. who are on a lot less than Dan Carter will be, Giteau is, or Mowen will be (who quit international rugby after a year as captain of Australia aged 29!), to name but a few.

The top clubs could maybe yes but where does that leave Grenoble, Brive, Bayonne etc? I doubt they would be happy with no salary cap.

add in 2 more top14 teams

add in a domestic knockout tournament to fill the gaps when you wont release your players during international windows as the unions have stopped you being administered by the IRB

prob 50% increase in revenues for all clubs (extra matches and extra TV revenue, with even better players to watch).

lets put another way.

rugby in newcastle with half empty stadiums in a city which is mostly about football?

or rugby on the cote d'azur when you become adored and cherished by the townspeople you represent?

oh yeah and they pay 4 times as much if you are good enough.

answer = ben mowen

How would that help Grenoble being able to compete with Toulon in terms of money? There is a reason why the salary cap is still in place.

bit of a pointless discussion anyway. far too hypothetical. was merely trying to illustrate some of the potential consequences of, as sin e suggests, the FFR and World Rugby kicking the french clubs out of the sport if they dont do what the FFR want. it would end very badly for european and ultimately world rugby, but would probably be an improvement in the eyes of most french rugby fans!

The French salary cap is abit of a farce as IIRC Toulon helped JW to set a company (10 I believe) to maximise his image rights & earning potential that is out of the salary cap.

shuren34 wrote:

Sin é wrote:If the FFR wanted to take on the French Clubs, they would have the backing of World Rugby who do have money. Whatever you end up playing in France, it won't be Rugby Union. Ask South Africa what the isolation years were like?

But the power of FFR on LNR is given by our government.
Did you know how many people the clubs employ? We have two professional level: top 14 and pro d2: 30 clubs.
So I'm sure our government will let FFR destroy the LNR when the fans are on the LNR side with more than a century of existence.
And the relation between our government and the FFR are already awful because of the new stadium.

And I'm pretty sure the French Government will not be happy if their national team is continually humiliated in the French capital and elsewhere by minnows like Ireland and Wales.

quinsforever wrote:it's not french club rugby that would be in isolation. they would have the vast majority of the worlds best players well past their sell by date.''

hence why they would happily scrap the wage cap, bring in all the best talent, and pull up the drawbridges and stick 2 fingers up at all the other unions including their own.

to answer your question about SA, their club rugby was completely unaffected. they lagged begind at intl level some of the developments once the game started to turn professional. caught up pretty quickly winning RWC in 1995 though.

but financially no-one was affected...because....the whole game was AMATEUR then.

Fixed that for you.

The South Africans found it difficult to compete internationally. They know they need the international competition.

quinsforever wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

quinsforever wrote:here's a thought. if the FFR and World Rugby tried to put any kind of pressure on the top14, then the top14 could just scrap their salary cap, and really start poaching all the top ABs and Sprinboks who are at the top of their game. Quadruple their salaries and dont release them for international duty.

viewing figures up in France

viewing figures down everywhere else.

going down that path, if top14 add 2 more teams, and raise the drawbridges, then they could really aim to become the NFL of rugby. everything else would be massively second-tier.

because that is the reality of their commercial clout. of course i hope it wont happen. but thats also why the FFR is toothless.

Only Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont and Racing have that kind of spending power. Everyone else simply don't have the crowd numbers (Castres, Grenoble, Brive and Bayonne all between 10-15k) and financial backing to compete if there was no salary cap.

If you even look at the likes of Inter Milan ( 46,246 average attedence) whose revenues I'm sure would dwarf most if not all Top 14 clubs, can only manage to give top contracts worth around 5 million euro. So there is no chance that Top14 clubs could Quadruple their salaries.

they could quadruple the salaries of the centrally contracted ABs. who are on a lot less than Dan Carter will be, Giteau is, or Mowen will be (who quit international rugby after a year as captain of Australia aged 29!), to name but a few.

Mowen quit because he couldn't hack the travel in super rugby and international rugby. A few players who have families come North for that reason. A few return back to Australia & New Zealand like O'Connor and Sonny Bill to play international rugby.

[quote="shuren34"]
PS: Blanco love the FFR, but he love even more his club Biarritz.

Blanco has left his beloved Biarritz in the capable hands of Eddie O'Sullivan while tries to sort out the FFR. I think he is in line to be the next FFR President.

Sin é wrote:You haven't answered my question about how South Africa fared during their isolation?  
They survived and even won a world cup in 95.
Of course it was difficult for them, but they didn't have the money we have now. Ban us if you want but it will not stop us buying players (au contraire), and you will affect the 6 nations, a important competition for your union's finances.

They survived because they were taken back in/World Rugby to the IRB. France won't be. Look more to rugby league to see how that worked out.

The IRB won't ban you. What will happen is that if you can't abide by the rules and regulations of World Rugby, you will leave. Any players who have international ambitions won't play in this new game. They might try it out when they want to fill their pension fund when they are 30+.

quinsforever wrote:
they could quadruple the salaries of the centrally contracted ABs. who are on a lot less than Dan Carter will be, Giteau is, or Mowen will be (who quit international rugby after a year as captain of Australia aged 29!), to name but a few.

Its not all about money though. A 40+ capped AB turned down Munster (and lots of French clubs) to stay in New Zealand after the World Cup because he wants to play against the Lions on the next tour.

As well as that, do you think the South Africans like Brian Habana & Bakkies would have gone to France if they thought they would not be selected to play international rugby?

Sin é wrote:Its not all about money though. A 40+ capped AB turned down Munster (and lots of French clubs) to stay in New Zealand after the World Cup because he wants to play against the Lions on the next tour.

As well as that, do you think the South Africans like Brian Habana & Bakkies would have gone to France if they thought they would not be selected to play international rugby?

Carl Hayman turned down the All Blacks for Toulon, and Nick Evans knew he was ending his international career when he moved. It has happened.

The Lions will likely be an attraction for some but money can certainly be a draw. There comes a point when the numbers get big enough, you start to feel stupid for not moving. That feeling is exacerbated when you see others signing contracts.

The length of the French season used to put off quite a few players from the south, especially if they planned to maintain, or return to, an international career. Now, though, the top squads have such depth, there is more room for rest and rotation, It's still a long slog, mind you, but no longer such a deal-breaker.

and giteau, and brock james, and bowen, and who is the SA 13 who elected to stay in japan and retire from intl rugby 9 months before the world cup? jaques fourie? examples from england...flood, wilko, tait, abendanon.

tons of examples.

international rugby is a big deal. but its not as important as living one's life. and there are plenty of players who will choose money and quality of life, and fair play to them.

quinsforever wrote:international rugby is a big deal. but its not as important as living one's life. and there are plenty of players who will choose money and quality of life, and fair play to them.

I think even more so now with the increasing number of injuries and more awareness about the long term impact of head injuries and concussions. Players need to make hay when the sun shines and playing the odd half for Toulon whilst trebling your salary and winning tropohies is something very few players would turn down - even if it means cutting short an international career.

We've long since seen the club game surpass the international game in soccer and we are on the cusp of it here in rugby -the disolvment of the ERC was a major turning point and the line in the sand were the unions were broken in Europe.

I'd say enjoy the 6N, Lions and RWC while they last because in a generation, maybe less, they will be secondary to the club game.

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:international rugby is a big deal. but its not as important as living one's life. and there are plenty of players who will choose money and quality of life, and fair play to them.

I think even more so now with the increasing number of injuries and more awareness about the long term impact of head injuries and concussions. Players need to make hay when the sun shines and playing the odd half for Toulon whilst trebling your salary and winning tropohies is something very few players would turn down - even if it means cutting short an international career.

We've long since seen the club game surpass the international game in soccer and we are on the cusp of it here in rugby -the disolvment of the ERC was a major turning point and the line in the sand were the unions were broken in Europe.

I'd say enjoy the 6N, Lions and RWC while they last because in a generation, maybe less, they will be secondary to the club game.

actually the club game in soccer was always 10 times the size and relevance of the international game. look at most clubs attendance records...they were set in the 1920s and 1930s...60,000 plus at every match in the old first division, every week. and only 3 or 4 international matches a year around that time

what allowed international rugby to become "bigger" than club rugby was the amateur status of the game. the international game sat atop the amateur structure and no-one was supposed to be getting paid, but the Unions recognised the opportunity to milk money from televising the international matches. especially after the first RWC in 1987. Removing the amateur status from the game is what ended the Union's power. It just took 24 years for some people to realise it.

Accepted but the point stands.

Sin é wrote:
And I'm pretty sure the French Government will not be happy if their national team is continually humiliated in the French capital and elsewhere by minnows like Ireland and Wales.

       
Do you think France is a country like New-Zealand?
The government didn't care if we're bad in rugby. They will not put pressure on any union in any sport because the national team is crap.
And sorry but there are sports more important here than rugby. Bad results in football are far more importants, it's a national shame that we didn't have any tennis player winning Roland Garros or any french cyclist winning Tour de France too.
But rugby certainly not, it's quite know here that our national team is just crap which can't win 3 games without losing against anyone.

Sin é wrote:

Blanco has left his beloved Biarritz in the capable hands of Eddie O'Sullivan while tries to sort out the FFR. I think he is in line to be the next FFR President.

First he's still the president of Biarritz.
Now, of course he want to (and will probably) be the next FFR's president, but if you think he will destroy the LNR, you're taking drugs.
He created LNR and was its first president, and stay there more than anyone else (10 years)

Sin é wrote:
They survived because they were taken back in/World Rugby to the IRB. France won't be. Look more to rugby league to see how that worked out.
The IRB won't ban you. What will happen is that if you can't abide by the rules and regulations of World Rugby, you will leave. Any players who have international ambitions won't play in this new game. They might try it out when they want to fill their pension fund when they are 30+.

I really don't understand your reasoning. First you say the IRB will ban us from the World Cup. And next that they will not ban us.
You have to choose. It's one thing or the other one.
Finally each guy has price, if you believe the players will never come in Top14 because they love the national jersey more, you're naive.
The first to leave are allways the second best players or the old ones, because the unions protect their best players first.
But just that, have an inluence on any championship: the level drop and the Union have huge financial problems.
And next is the coup de grâce, you'll rise the wage again and the best one start to leave too.
I don't say it's a good thing but it started when rugby became professional. Now the english and french club are most powerful than any other nations.

Sin é wrote:

As well as that, do you think the South Africans like Brian Habana & Bakkies would have gone to France if they thought they would not be selected to play international rugby?

Bakkies Botha deal was he shouldn't play for South Africa anymore. The last time he played for the Boks, his president criticize him for that, and a few time later Botha announced he retired definitively from the international game.

rodders wrote:Accepted but the point stands.

I'd say that the European Championship and World Cups are pretty big deals in football. It's the friendlies that are secondary.

rodders wrote:

quinsforever wrote:international rugby is a big deal. but its not as important as living one's life. and there are plenty of players who will choose money and quality of life, and fair play to them.

I think even more so now with the increasing number of injuries and more awareness about the long term impact of head injuries and concussions. Players need to make hay when the sun shines and playing the odd half for Toulon whilst trebling your salary and winning tropohies is something very few players would turn down - even if it means cutting short an international career.

We've long since seen the club game surpass the international game in soccer and we are on the cusp of it here in rugby -the disolvment of the ERC was a major turning point and the line in the sand were the unions were broken in Europe.

I'd say enjoy the 6N, Lions and RWC while they last because in a generation, maybe less, they will be secondary to the club game.

The Lions is already well below club rugby in terms of importance (always has been, in my opinion). The RWC will always be the pinnacle. Not sure about the 6 Nations. It probably needs a shake-up anyway.

What we are already moving towards is a three tier Europe, to compare with football
The Top 14 is the Spanish league, they pretty much win everything most of the time and the top teams will throw money at it if they don't and no tears shed for the teams that can't keep up.
The Avivia is the English league, the top clubs are permanently in Europe and will even win the competition from time to time, always thereabouts in the quarters and semis, domestically there are large gaps starting to show between the top clubs but for the medium term even the wealthiest clubs see that there is some sense in keeping the whole league financially stable.
The Pro12 is the Dutch league, some powerhouse teams with a long history and some making up the numbers, in the medium term will be happy with getting into the big cup and maybe even getting a few quarters but will never again dominate as previously as any major talent will be sold to the other two to balance the books. Like the Dutch they may start taking the "little" cup seriously as their best/only chance of silverware.
The SH countries are then in the same position as the latin American and African countries have in football, providing young players to develop or discard - albeit paying them very well - and importing some established stars to boost the current sides.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sin é wrote:Its not all about money though. A 40+ capped AB turned down Munster (and lots of French clubs) to stay in New Zealand after the World Cup because he wants to play against the Lions on the next tour.

As well as that, do you think the South Africans like Brian Habana & Bakkies would have gone to France if they thought they would not be selected to play international rugby?

Carl Hayman turned down the All Blacks for Toulon, and Nick Evans knew he was ending his international career when he moved. It has happened.

The Lions will likely be an attraction for some but money can certainly be a draw. There comes a point when the numbers get big enough, you start to feel stupid for not moving. That feeling is exacerbated when you see others signing contracts.

The length of the French season used to put off quite a few players from the south, especially if they planned to maintain, or return to, an international career. Now, though, the top squads have such depth, there is more room for rest and rotation, It's still a long slog, mind you, but no longer such a deal-breaker.

Hayman might have returned to NZ in time for the World Cup in 2011 if Owen Franks had not emerged (along with John Afoa).

Nick Evans knew he wasn't going to get a look in with Carter around.

The Toulon President never stops complaining about having to release his players for international duty.

Sin é wrote:

The Toulon President never stops complaining about having to release his players for international duty.

fixed