Well what an improved European Rugby format that is

First topic message reminder :

Round 6...

only 1 team has qualified for the quarter finals

as BOD said this evening - "this is unique. to have 11 teams still with a shot of making the quarter finals and only 1 team already qualified come round 6"

not a single dead rubber group come round 6. what a massive improvement that is on previous HC formats.

my picks for qualifiers. In order (first 4 get home quarters)

clermont
wasps
toulon
saints
toulouse (win group but not home QF)
RCM92
Saracens
Bath

NB - as a quins fan i admit that our group with leinster and wasps is the tightest. but i fancy wasps to deny leinster a LBP and thus qualification.

looks like a fair reflection of the actual quality of respective club rugby. without loaded draws by virtue of too many walkover matches.

Quinns,

Saracens are away to Clermont. Clermont win I think and Saracens will only squeeze through maybe with a losing bonus point.

I think Leinster will get at least a losing bonus point which means they will qualify on 19pts.

spot on sin e

so yes if clermont win vs sarries then i agree Leinster will likely go through even if they lose vs wasps, as long as they pick up that all important lbp.

I think most of us expect Toulon, Clermount and George North to be the top

beshocked wrote: sin e and asoreleftshoulder they are restrictions put on by yourselves.

Qualifying for the European cup by league position is a restriction that the English and French clubs put on themselves,yet that didn't stop them bleating and fighting until everyone else had to follow the same stupid system.

If they were truly interested in fairness they would have acknowledged that our restrictions are far more of a handicap to European success than their supposed handicap of having to qualify each year.

Only one game where both teams were in with a shout and where both teams played the first XV - not a great weekend of rugby to be honest.

Toulouse v Bath was a corker of a match though it has to be said

beshocked wrote:If you are struggling for good Irish coaches you could always try and coax Mccall and O Shea back.....

Ulster lost Humpreys because he was offered far more than they could afford. Why would McCall or O'Shea cut their salaries by probably more than half to return to provinces that can't afford to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed? The only gig either would be in the least bit interested is currently filled by a Mr Schmidt.

Ireland only has a total of about 150 professional players to compete against countries with many times that number in their pool. The IRFU can't afford to allow the provinces to have any more than about 4 NIQ players as 44 first choice Irish Qualified players are about as few as they could tolerate and still cope with injuries. Of course French clubs in particular don't care if they fill their teams with 15 non-qualified French players if they can afford them as they are still plenty to pick for the national side. It's when young players coming out of the academies who have proved nothing are attracted overseas by doubling their contracts that makes the future look especially bleak for the provinces.

One season isn't enough to judge the new competition - except the trend isn't one season. The clubs with the big numbers of either money or playing resources or both will gradually exclude the weaklings at the bottom. Soon there will be calls to cut the numbers down to 16 and then a 12 team super league (franchise only).

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:For all the talk of developing the secondary competition, its a shambles. Cardiff put 100 points on one of the Italian teams and some of the French teams are not bothering about it.

These mis-matches have been there in the pool stages the last few years (at least). I remember plenty of 60,70, 80+ drubbings of Italian/Romanian sides. Perhaps it needs further culling and a proper third tier?

They sold this new set-up on the promise to promote and develop the 2nd & 3rd tier competition. Its gone backwards in both incentive and substance. Its not just the Italian clubs though - Gloucester put 55 on Brive. Cardiff Blues put 37-14 on Grenoble. Connacht 48-12 to La Rochelle. Stade Francaise couldn't be bothered. In short, the French clubs are not interested in this competition. Its got very little tv coverage (fortunately), no sponsor, and no incentive to win (like a spot in the Champs Cup).

I don't understand this criticism when Toulon put 60 points on fairly recent HC finalists (and historical winners), Bath put 35 on 4 times HC winners, Sarries scored 33 against twice champions, Leinster scored 50 against perennial competitors., all in this last weekend of the Champions Cup. Oh, and Stade Francais, who apparently aren't interested, scored 47 points in the Challenge Cup.

I don't recall any specific promises regarding 2nd tier, and I'm absolutely certain that there were no commitments made for the 3rd tier. However, the Qualifying Competition for next season started this last weekend, will continue next weekend and conclude with playoffs at the end of the west european season in April.

The Challenge Cup is much improved - still much potential for rotating/resting teams, but not so much as in the Amlin. Let's face it, all the nationalities have competitions in which they are used to seeing weakened teams (for varying reasons)

IRFU overpays its players. and thats not even including the tax breaks offered by the goverment.

An example...Gopperth on Eur275k. Are you kidding me?

if your academies are producing that many talented youngsters, then the answer is precisely to encourage some of them to go ply their trade in the AP or in France. the answer is not to bankrupt the IRFU to keep them in Ireland. Let the AP teams pay and groom the players who are not getting first team gametime for your provinces.

Keeping your players in Ireland has not exactly been the recipe for international team success in line with provincial performance has it? A select few should be very well rewarded for staying. not everyone. Wales, with very poor regional performance, continue to produce good consistent results at international level, with most of their key players outside of Wales.

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:If you are struggling for good Irish coaches you could always try and coax Mccall and O Shea back.....

Ulster lost Humpreys because he was offered far more than they could afford. Why would McCall or O'Shea cut their salaries by probably more than half to return to provinces that can't afford to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed? The only gig either would be in the least bit interested is currently filled by a Mr Schmidt.

Ireland only has a total of about 150 professional players to compete against countries with many times that number in their pool. The IRFU can't afford to allow the provinces to have any more than about 4 NIQ players as 44 first choice Irish Qualified players are about as few as they could tolerate and still cope with injuries. Of course French clubs in particular don't care if they fill their teams with 15 non-qualified French players if they can afford them as they are still plenty to pick for the national side. It's when young players coming out of the academies who have proved nothing are attracted overseas by doubling their contracts that makes the future look especially bleak for the provinces.

One season isn't enough to judge the new competition - except the trend isn't one season. The clubs with the big numbers of either money or playing resources or both will gradually exclude the weaklings at the bottom. Soon there will be calls to cut the numbers down to 16 and then a 12 team super league (franchise only).

Please take Humphreys back.

Ulster can't afford him - he's there for four years...

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:If you are struggling for good Irish coaches you could always try and coax Mccall and O Shea back.....

Ulster lost Humpreys because he was offered far more than they could afford. Why would McCall or O'Shea cut their salaries by probably more than half to return to provinces that can't afford to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed? The only gig either would be in the least bit interested is currently filled by a Mr Schmidt.

Humphreys did not go because Ulster couldn't afford him.
He went, I suspect, because he made some bad decisions the previous year (signing Ludik, resigning Anscombe and Williams) and jumped ship before the decline set in.
He left a team on a high to join a team on a low to see if he could replicate the 4 years at Ulster and set himself up as the man with the midas touch.
Whatever the issues are, and there are many, money is not one of them.

Ulster could match O'Shea's and McCall's salary if they wanted to.
The unexpected departure of Humphreys sent them into a panic from which they have no recovered.
We are better financially than we ever were - sadly mistakes highlighted above means we have no leeway to sign new players till summer 2016.
What a mess

quinsforever wrote:IRFU overpays its players. and thats not even including the tax breaks offered by the goverment.

An example...Gopperth on Eur275k. Are you kidding me?

if your academies are producing that many talented youngsters, then the answer is precisely to encourage some of them to go ply their trade in the AP or in France. the answer is not to bankrupt the IRFU to keep them in Ireland. Let the AP teams pay and groom the players who are not getting first team gametime for your provinces.

Keeping your players in Ireland has not exactly been the recipe for international team success in line with provincial performance has it? A select few should be very well rewarded for staying. not everyone. Wales, with very poor regional performance, continue to produce good consistent results at international level, with most of their key players outside of Wales.

Lets see 3rd ranked in the World and a % win record in the 6N the equal of England France and way above Wales.
I reckon keeping players at home has served, and is serving, Ireland very well.
Especially when you consider we were always in the bottom 2 of the 5N's in the 90's.

Salaries at the 3 senior Provinces are on a par with the the top English clubs - so doing ok.
Salaries across the board are going through the roof and I suspect that there is trouble ahead because it is not sustainable.
The return has been excellent in the professional era, the blip this year not withstanding.

Nearly equal with England and France. The important thing when considering letting or even encouraging players to play abroad is still having them available for all the international requirements. You obviously want a good product available at your clubs so the supporters turn up as well of course. Club and international need to pull together.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:If you are struggling for good Irish coaches you could always try and coax Mccall and O Shea back.....

Ulster lost Humpreys because he was offered far more than they could afford. Why would McCall or O'Shea cut their salaries by probably more than half to return to provinces that can't afford to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed? The only gig either would be in the least bit interested is currently filled by a Mr Schmidt.

Humphreys did not go because Ulster couldn't afford him.
He went, I suspect, because he made some bad decisions the previous year (signing Ludik, resigning Anscombe and Williams) and jumped ship before the decline set in.

That's just conjecture geoff....as is this. I suspect he left because he wasn't happy with aspects of the new 3 year road map that he and Logan had laid out, one that would have eventually marginalised his role by almagamating the DoR and head coach jobs. Maybe he saw himself in this role and Logan didn't?

Gloucester came in with a good offer and he left, the fact that there was no counter offer suggests a rift between him and Logan and their vision for Ulster. I also suspect the decision to sack Anscombe had been taken, by Logan, before Humphreys resigned and that he didn't agree with it.

In my mind he wasn't happy about the direction Ulster were heading under Logan and jumped ship when another offer came along.

I am convinced because he knew he had screwed up and knew we would be going backwards this year not forwards.
One thing Ulster are not short of is money

David Humphreys did a great job for us in his first 2 years but make no mistake he is hard headed individual who wont think twice above treading over others to further his own career.

If he wanted to be Head Coach as well as Director of Rugby Logan would have not stood in his way. All Rugby decision were taken by Humphreys.
As can be seen at Gloucester he also has a Head Coach. Being cynical that type of set up suits him, gives him a fall guy if things go pear shaped.

Anscombe most definitely was NOT sacked before Humphreys went.
As I have said elsewhere Logans instinct was to keeping him for a year but was advised by the IRFU and Johann Mueller that he should go.
From that transpired the Kiss/Doak solution.

Essentially Humphreys was Logans rugby guru - now he has gone the phrase 'headless chicken' comes to mind.
Trouble is I cant see that changing till Kiss returns

quinsforever wrote:IRFU overpays its players. and thats not even including the tax breaks offered by the goverment.

An example...Gopperth on Eur275k. Are you kidding me?

You would sh1t yourself at what Wasps will pay him so.

French, and increasingly English, teams overpay their players which drives the market up. The IRFU are only in the halpeney place

Irish Times wrote: “I know everyone talks about getting a quality 10, of an international standard, and you see Dan Carter is top of that list.”

Possibly the greatest ever. Racing Metro are replacing Sexton with Carter after the World Cup.

“But that requires a big budget. You work your way down, even Jimmy Gopperth, look what he is on, and what Wasps are prepared to pay,” said Lam.

It has been reported as £300,000 (€384,000) a year.

Good stead

“If you can’t afford that, then you need to grow your own,” said Lam. “That’s what we did with Jack and a lot of the other indigenous boys coming through our academy. [Ravenhill] was another opportunity for Jack to come to a pressure environment away to Ulster, like Leinster. It will hold him in good stead as he continues his growth.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ireland-s-grow-your-own-policy-starting-to-reap-benefit-in-pivotal-outhalf-position-1.2053377

no sorry but the figures from the irfu and provinces make me think you are wrong. the three big provinces have a higher salary budget (when you include the payments for those on dual contracts), even before you include the tax breaks subsidised by the irish govt, than the english clubs' salary caps.

i bet you gopperth is not getting a pay rise in moving to wasps. especially once you net off him losing his tax breaks. he is leaving to get game time and be first choice 10 at a club that looks likely to be in the top tier competitions next year. i bet he even took a paycut (net to him).

if gopperth was on eur275 per annum....what does that mean leinster and the irfu have coughed up for sexton, if heaslip is on eur500k per year?

i bet you there is not a single english qualified player in the AP on that kind of money.

the irfu need to be practical, not get outmaneuvred by agents and players into overpaying for everyone. with only leinster (probably) making in to the quarter finals, that is going to be yet another big hit to the irfu finances next year. its going to be a tough couple of years for the irfu and the provinces i fear. no money for quality NIQ players. and aging, highly paid dual contract players who rarely play in pro12 matches. bit of a juggling act.

Heaslip is the highest paid IQ player in Ireland.

English teams are paying more for foreign players.
Ireland have decided to pay higher salaries overall to IQ players to keep them at home that is all.
As for Gopperth the reality is 3 and 10 are the positions that command the highest salaries.

The Ulster CEO went public and said that the 3 senior Provinces were on similar salary levels as the top English sides he would have been very foolish to say this if it was a lie.
He also said this took central contracts into account, of which there are a lot less these days. Also remember the English 'marquee' signings need to be added to the salary cap.
Lastly I did a check between Ulster and Leicester a couple of years back and Leicester had 10 more professionals than Ulster.
Generally the top English teams have more depth than than the Irish teams and hence spread their money more thinly

geoff998rugby wrote:Heaslip is the highest paid IQ player in Ireland.

English teams are paying more for foreign players.
Ireland have decided to pay higher salaries overall to IQ players to keep them at home that is all.
As for Gopperth the reality is 3 and 10 are the positions that command the highest salaries.

The Ulster CEO went public and said that the 3 senior Provinces were on similar salary levels as the top English sides he would have been very foolish to say this if it was a lie.
He also said this took central contracts into account, of which there are a lot less these days. Also remember the English 'marquee' signings need to be added to the salary cap.
Lastly I did a check between Ulster and Leicester a couple of years back and Leicester had 10 more professionals than Ulster.
Generally the top English teams have more depth than than the Irish teams and hence spread their money more thinly

if the provinces had been on less he would have said so. therefore we can safely assume its more. then you add in the tax breaks offered by the irish goverment. and add in the private funding from dennis o'brien and heaslips paid ambassador roles for BoI, etc, etc and you see that in fact, the take home to the players in Ireland is far higher than the equivalent take home of English AP players. I have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever by the way. But i think the irfu are too wedded to their obsession with keeping all their players in Ireland and have been strongarmed into overextending themselves for IQ players, and have no money left in the coffers for quality NIQ players, and the gaps are showing in key positions at some of the provinces.

rodders wrote:Wasps will beat Leinster too. Sorry Leinster fans.  

Why apologise? Its not your fault.

Anyway I can see it going either way. Leinster must surely have one decent game in them.

quinsforever I think you are wrong, re salary levels, but clearly no point going round in circles

geoff, it appears several of the AP clubs may be bending the rules anyway so no-one is ever going to know the true answers

as usual the only people keen to float numbers in the media are agents. everyone else wants them kept quiet, or underplayed.

I can agree with that.

Anyway to get us back on track I see that there are 4 good looking games in Round 6 and they are all on BT Sports.

Toulon are through so effectively only Leicester and Montpellier, in their 5 fixtures, have have something to play for.
By comparison 9 of the 10 sides on BT Sports having something to play for (Castres are the exception)

Sky must be livid

quinsforever wrote:geoff, it appears several of the AP clubs may be bending the rules anyway so no-one is ever going to know the true answers

as usual the only people keen to float numbers in the media are agents. everyone else wants them kept quiet, or underplayed.

Also hard to compare Ireland and England as their systems are so different in so many ways. Salary caps v Overseas player restrictions. Union control v Commercial clubs etc. etc.

Neither set up would work for the other side. We need to keep control of things from an Ireland pov as we have only 4 teams. You guys have 12 teams to select from, and our system would be terrible over there.

Both systems have their flaws but both suit their purpose.

Geoff, where is all of Ulster's money coming from?

geoff998rugby wrote:Humphreys did not go because Ulster couldn't afford him.

I blame John Afoa! He allegedly convinced Walkingshaw that he should do whatever it took to get Humphreys to be DoR. Walkingshaw made an offer and Humph's jaw dropped, but he realised he was in a seller's market and made an even more jaw-dropping counter offer that barely caused Ryan a twitch. Just as Davies before him the Doc was headhunted, rather than him scouring the positions vacant columns.

Maybe Ulster could have afforded to keep Humphreys but it would have required an increase that hurt elsewhere, so would that pain have been worth it?

Sin é

Ground built for free (we owe a little on the old new stand)
16,000 people through the gate every week
Merchandise sales have double in the last 12 months - we were already in the top 5 before that
Excelllent ground sponsorship deal
Plus the enhanced money for TV and league sponsorships

Contrary to popular belief - not Rory

I never believed the Rory story!

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:For all the talk of developing the secondary competition, its a shambles. Cardiff put 100 points on one of the Italian teams and some of the French teams are not bothering about it.

These mis-matches have been there in the pool stages the last few years (at least). I remember plenty of 60,70, 80+ drubbings of Italian/Romanian sides. Perhaps it needs further culling and a proper third tier?

They sold this new set-up on the promise to promote and develop the 2nd & 3rd tier competition. Its gone backwards in both incentive and substance. Its not just the Italian clubs though - Gloucester put 55 on Brive. Cardiff Blues put 37-14 on Grenoble. Connacht 48-12 to La Rochelle. Stade Francaise couldn't be bothered. In short, the French clubs are not interested in this competition. Its got very little tv coverage (fortunately), no sponsor, and no incentive to win (like a spot in the Champs Cup).

I don't understand this criticism when Toulon put 60 points on fairly recent HC finalists (and historical winners), Bath put 35 on 4 times HC winners, Sarries scored 33 against twice champions, Leinster scored 50 against perennial competitors., all in this last weekend of the Champions Cup. Oh, and Stade Francais, who apparently aren't interested, scored 47 points in the Challenge Cup.

I don't recall any specific promises regarding 2nd tier, and I'm absolutely certain that there were  no commitments made for the 3rd tier. However, the Qualifying Competition for next season started this last weekend, will continue next weekend and conclude with playoffs at the end of the west european season in April.

The Challenge Cup is much improved - still much potential for rotating/resting teams, but not so much as in the Amlin. Let's face it, all the nationalities have competitions in which they are used to seeing weakened teams (for varying reasons)  

Ulster were competitive against Toulon in their first game. Injury has badly affected them. Toulouse have been erratic of late - Munster put 5 tries on them last year in the QFs. Munster beat Sarries at home. We all know the French teams lose interest for the final games if it looks like they are not going to qualify.

Specific promises were made about the other 3 tiers so as to get agreement to reduce the Top Tier competition. The acting chairman of the EPCR is apologising about this in the Irish Times today - saying that they will have to do something about making it competitive (such as increasing the prize money).

Acting Chair of EPCR wrote: McNaughton also admitted European bosses must address fresh concerns over the second-tier Challenge Cup that has been hit with new criticism this season.

So glad the HC was killed off to be replaced by this wonderful, fair to all competition.

TightHEAD wrote:So glad the HC was killed off to be replaced by this wonderful, fair to all competition.

I know, I know. You're here all week, try the fish

Got any more of the quotes from McNaughton?

quinsforever wrote:no sorry but the figures from the irfu and provinces make me think you are wrong. the three big provinces have a higher salary budget (when you include the payments for those on dual contracts), even before you include the tax breaks subsidised by the irish govt, than the english clubs' salary caps.

There is about 4 players on dual contracts per club (i.e., Munster - POC, Peter O'Mahony, Keith Earls & Conor Murray).

The tax break is they get back 40% of tax paid on 10 years direct salary from IRFU only and they must now retire in the EU (i.e., no heading off to Japan for an easy payday).

Sexton, SOB & Heaslip (who have had top-ups from Denis O'Brien) have to pay tax on their top-up.

i bet you gopperth is not getting a pay rise in moving to wasps. especially once you net off him losing his tax breaks. he is leaving to get game time and be first choice 10 at a club that looks likely to be in the top tier competitions next year. i bet he even took a paycut (net to him).

I bet he is. By the way, the new owner of Wasps (Richardson) is a Leinster fan (so your taking money out of the Ireland game that way) as he made his money on the insurance business in Ireland.

if gopperth was on eur275 per annum....what does that mean leinster and the irfu have coughed up for sexton, if heaslip is on eur500k per year?

i bet you there is not a single english qualified player in the AP on that kind of money.

I think Sexton got a longer contract (4 years) than would be normal and is on a top-up. Heaslip is on a top-up (which he will have pay tax on).

the irfu need to be practical, not get outmaneuvred by agents and players into overpaying for everyone. with only leinster (probably) making in to the quarter finals, that is going to be yet another big hit to the irfu finances next year. its going to be a tough couple of years for the irfu and the provinces i fear. no money for quality NIQ players. and aging, highly paid dual contract players who rarely play in pro12 matches. bit of a juggling act.

Northampton are helping that situation by paying a 22 year old who has never started a Hcup game £150K per annum as a back-up to Meyler!!

IRFU have stated in the past that they only ever budget for one of the provinces making the QFs, so financially I think they are sound. The big generator for them is the international game.

POC would be the only aging player on a central contract (and he is probably retiring after the world cup). Tommy Bowe will be 33 when his next contract is up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Got any more of the quotes from McNaughton?

In brief, seems the new organisation is a shambles. Most the ERC staff have gone for redundancy (not willing to move to Switzerland), and they are left with 5 or 6 staff. They are unable to recruit a Director General and they can't agree on who the independent chair is to be  

And surprise, surprise, the Nigels are no where to be seen

European rugby’s Swiss move drags on
Tuesday, January 20, 2015

By Nick Purewal

European rugby bosses have confirmed internal wrangling and moving competition headquarters from Dublin to Switzerland could delay the appointment of a figurehead chairman for the revamped continental game by five months.

The search for an independent chairman to lead European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR) is already three months behind schedule, and could stretch beyond March.

Europe’s new governing body EPCR was forced to commission predecessor European Rugby Cup (ERC) to run this term’s competitions, unable to secure new operations in Switzerland quickly enough.

The new set-up remains on course to take full control a year behind schedule in Neuchatel next term, after redundancy packages were agreed with ERC staff.

European chiefs confirmed 10 or 11 of ERC’s 15 staff based in Dublin will accept redundancy deals this summer, with EPCR now seeking new recruits for their Switzerland base.

“There has to be unanimous agreement on the new chairman from the nominations committee, which is sometimes hard to get,” interim chairman Paul McNaughton said.

“There have been many discussions but we are hoping to make progress over the next couple of months, and there are still a number of candidates out there.”

McNaughton will revert to his role as vice-chairman in a five-strong EPCR executive committee once the permanent independent chairman is appointed.

The former Ireland team manager had expected EPCR to ratify the new chairman as far back as October, but the process still rumbles on.

The new EPCR set-up is the fruit of two years of civil war across Europe, but has resulted in record TV revenue and more meritocratic qualification processes.

The Champions Cup has replaced the Heineken Cup, with the old governing body ERC rendered defunct this summer, one season behind schedule.

McNaughton confirmed part of the delay in appointing EPCR’s new chairman centres around the hunt for a director general to complete that five-strong executive committee.

“The nominations committee has proposed to the board that we recruit a chairman and a director general at the same time,” said McNaughton.

“What we’ll concentrate on at the moment is the organisation of the new structure in Neuchatel and going through that process with staff.

“The new chairman is important, but there is other work we have to get done as well at the same time.

“Four or five of the ERC staff will be moving to Switzerland but the vast majority will not.

“There’s no perfect scenario when staff have to choose between redundancy and moving from Dublin to Switzerland, but it has been our priority to ensure process has been conducted as professionally as possible.”

McNaughton also admitted European bosses must address fresh concerns over the second-tier Challenge Cup that has been hit with new criticism this season.

This year’s Challenge Cup winners will not qualify automatically for next season’s Champions Cup, and teams no longer drop down from the top to the second tier at the quarter-final stage.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/european-rugbys-swiss-move-drags-on-307877.html

The big disappointments for me have been Montpellier and Sale. Montpellier were under pressure in the league and Galthie was effectively on a 'final warning' to improve their league position. He did, but at the expense of throwing in the towel in Europe.

The club marginalised him anyway and brought in Jake White, who oversaw a much more competitive performance against Glasgow at the weekend.

When Sale lost their first two games (Munster & ASM) they too gave up and 'rested' Cipriani for the back to back games with Sarries.

Castres treated this year's competition with the same contempt they always  did the HC. Treviso...well.

I've enjoyed watching everyone else in the new competition. It certainly has a 'tighter' feel to it with very few games you wouldn't be bothered with as a neutral.

No quotes about how they are trying to improve the second tier then?

No 7&1/2 wrote:No quotes about how they are trying to improve the second tier then?

Who are 'they'? It looks like Paul McNaughton is running the whole show on his own as there is no Director General, so it would be hard for him to get around to doing all of that. I found this in the Irish Times though:

Grenoble coach Bernard Jackman branded the Challenge Cup a “pointless competition”, voicing general dissatisfaction that has forced a rethink among European bosses.

McNaughton said boosting Challenge Cup prize money will be discussed at next month’s EPCR board meeting.

“There’s a feeling out there that the Challenge Cup has lost something and that’s something we have to address,” said McNaughton.

“Increasing prize money may be one of the ways we could seek to look at this.

“Actually though there is already reward for the Challenge Cup winners that many people haven’t realised.

“The winners of the Challenge Cup can still qualify for the Champions Cup play-offs if they haven’t already done so through league position.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/european-wrangling-could-see-chairman-appointment-delayed-1.2071239

There has been a detrimental consequence of the new seeding procedure.
Under the old system finish 2nd was better than 3rd and 3rd was better than 4th in terms of getting a higher seeding.
This gave some insentive to winning even when, effectively, out of the competition.

As seeding is now solely on league positions teams have nothing to play for once they are out of the competition.
Better to save players for the league matches ahead which do count towards seeding for next year.

There's still a board there! In all seriousness it's either give them a direct route into the comp, more money or scrap it altogether isn't it?

7and1/2 - I would think they would need a committee in place before being able to comment on that. But most on here, and many pundits, recognised the flaw of the 2nd tier winners not being rewarded with a place in next season's 1st tier competition as a mistake.

And how long will it be before the Pro 12 and/or EPCR do away with the guaranteed Italian place after Treviso's  woeful showing? Pressure may come there from the Pro12 clubs finishing 7th or 8th*.

*8th place goes into a play off after this season. That's another daft situation, although Wasps did benefit from it this season.

Hound of Harrow wrote:The big disappointments for me have been Montpellier and Sale. Montpellier were under pressure in the league and Galthie was effectively on a 'final warning' to improve their league position. He did, but at the expense of throwing in the towel in Europe.

The club marginalised him anyway and brought in Jake White, who oversaw a much more competitive performance against Glasgow at the weekend.

When Sale lost their first two games (Munster & ASM) they too gave up and 'rested' Cipriani for the back to back games with Sarries.

Castres treated this year's competition with the same contempt they always  did the HC. Treviso...well.

I've enjoyed watching everyone else in the new competition. It certainly has a 'tighter' feel to it with very few games you wouldn't be bothered with as a neutral.

To be fair to Castres and Montpellier, both teams are struggling in the TOP 14 (Castres disastrously so), so maybe it's understandable that they would prioritise it. In particular, getting relegated for Castres would be an absolute disaster. It also shows that generally those two teams have been struggling this season, so maybe not surprising that they have also struggled in Europe. Having said that, Castres have never fully committed to the HC in the past either (Montpellier also don't have much of a record there) so maybe I'm being too generous.

Sale is a tough one, they went close-ish to winning all three home games arguably (especially the Munster one, obv.) and were in the toughest group of the competition. I don't think they've been embarassed, but I do think they could have done better. Once they'd lost their opening two games though there was little hope of progressing from that group (they'd have needed to win their last four...).

Treviso have been awful, but not sure anyone expected any more from them, for obvious reasons.

What I have found interesting is that, in the past, losing your first two games meant you were virtually knocked out, whereas here both Wasps and Bath have a very decent chance of making it through despite doing so. Also worth noting that in general the Pro 12 started strongly, but have tailed off (Munster, Glasgow and Leinster all won their opening two matches, Scarlets tonked Leicester at home, only Leinster can still go through) whereas it's been the opposite for the Aviva.

Not sure a guaranteed place is the best solution Hound as you may end up with a relatively weak team in the top comp and also you're basically saying that winning the 2nd tier isn't up to much. Rank up the money though and then you raise interest,

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure a guaranteed place is the best solution Hound as you may end up with a relatively weak team in the top comp and also you're basically saying that winning the 2nd tier isn't up to much. Rank up the money though and then you raise interest,

And where is this money to come from .... no sponsor and a very basic tv deal for this competition.

edit ... and no Director General/Organisation to sell this competition to sponsors (who won't touch it anyway because of the lack of tv coverage).

The Pro12 teams have been going backwards this year. Not necessarily because of the Euro debacle (though you could argue it had some bearing especially in Wales)

Treviso had a scare last season that they would pull out of the pro12. While it never came to anything many of their players legged it to England, leaving them in the sh1t.

Welsh teams had their long running feud with the WRU which has to have affected their performances.

Irish teams have had their union focusing on the national team (Understandable in a WC year) and so have not had any decent foreign players signed. (Also affected by inflated wages in France & Japan and increasingly England)

These things go in cycles. We had 5 quarter finalists in 2012 to England's 1. Probably lucky to have one this year. (2 still in with a shout)

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure a guaranteed place is the best solution Hound as you may end up with a relatively weak team in the top comp and also you're basically saying that winning the 2nd tier isn't up to much. Rank up the money though and then you raise interest,

And where is this money to come from .... no sponsor and a very basic tv deal for this competition.

edit ... and no Director General/Organisation to sell this competition to sponsors (who won't touch it anyway because of the lack of tv coverage).

Take it from the top tier.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure a guaranteed place is the best solution Hound as you may end up with a relatively weak team in the top comp and also you're basically saying that winning the 2nd tier isn't up to much. Rank up the money though and then you raise interest,

And where is this money to come from .... no sponsor and a very basic tv deal for this competition.

edit ... and no Director General/Organisation to sell this competition to sponsors (who won't touch it anyway because of the lack of tv coverage).

Take it from the top tier.

Good idea. The English & French clubs can carry the competition

(The Pro12 has been guaranteed 20m).

Well take back the guarantee. I'm sure no one will mind to improve the 2nd tier for the benefit of the game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well take back the guarantee. I'm sure no one will mind to improve the 2nd tier for the benefit of the game.

Why would the PRO 12 teams agree to that? The PRO12 teams are already doing their bit by just splitting the 20m per Union even though Wales and Ireland have double the teams that the others have.

Just a split across the 3 leagues. fairest way to ensure the improvement of the 2nd tier. It wouldn't be beneficial for me to just drop it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just a split across the 3 leagues. fairest way to ensure the improvement of the 2nd tier. It wouldn't be beneficial for me to just drop it.

Why would the PRO12 teams do that - they were forced into this new setup and are struggling financially as it is. Its the English & French clubs who insisted on messing around with the competition structure. When organised by the ERC, it had a sponsor, incentives and much better tv coverage.