Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

[BamBam]

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Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[rodders]

A lot of mindgames here - Wales trying to convince themselves they are favourites and the English trying to convince themselves they aren't ......

If both teams play to their maximum then Wales have too much firepower in the backs....however England injury list is much over played - the truth is Lancaster hasn't found his best XV yet, so even with the injuries there's every chance England will be even better minus the injured players - albeit missing a bit on the bench. England should have the edge at half back so the foward battle will be key.

Winner of this will have one hand on the title given the fixtures. England have a tough game in Dublin and Wales have a big challenge to beat France but other than that its set up nicely for these two,

[jelly]

Team named.

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 33 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 11 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 42 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 26 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 61 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps)
4. David Attwood (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
5. George Kruis (Saracens, 4 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 53 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 32 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 12 caps)

Replacements

16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 15 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
19. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 47 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 16 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 9 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 16 caps)

[LordDowlais]

But apparently, that's a stronger squad than the Welsh could ever hope to have

BamBam, make your mind up, are you talking about the 1st fifteen or are you talking about the squad ? As first 15 goes Wales are better, they are more settled, as a squad though, England have strength in depth that Wales can only dream of, so despite of all your injuries, you can still put that side you have posted, that is a side that is more than capable of challenging for the 6N.

[TightHEAD]

Wales by 10pts

[BamBam]

Well as the 2nd/3rd/4th choice players are now in the starting lineup, it stands to reason that the bench is also going to be weakened.

But just for completeness sake, assuming that the 2nd choice would be the ideal bench player

Youngs - I'd have Webber, but fair enough, 2nd choice
Mako - Corbs at full fitness, but again based on that being rare, 2nd choice
Brookes/Thomas -3rd choice
Easter - As a lock? About 7th choice
Croft - Back row pecking order - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Vunipola, Haskell, then possibly Croft
Wigglesworth - Care is fully fit so for some strange reason he is 2nd choice
Cipriani - 3rd at best
Nowell - Fair enough

So 4 out of the 7 bench players would not be in the 23 if all were fit and firing, and that's not including Mako.

Care to do the same for the Welsh squad?

[maestegmafia]

That is a good looking england team.. They will push Wales hard.

[maestegmafia]

Well as the 2nd/3rd/4th choice players are now in the starting lineup, it stands to reason that the bench is also going to be weakened.

But just for completeness sake, assuming that the 2nd choice would be the ideal bench player

Youngs - I'd have Webber, but fair enough, 2nd choice
Mako - Corbs at full fitness, but again based on that being rare, 2nd choice
Brookes/Thomas -3rd choice
Easter - As a lock? About 7th choice
Croft - Back row pecking order - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Vunipola, Haskell, then possibly Croft
Wigglesworth - Care is fully fit so for some strange reason he is 2nd choice
Cipriani - 3rd at best
Nowell - Fair enough

So 4 out of the 7 bench players would not be in the 23 if all were fit and firing, and that's not including Mako.

Care to do the same for the Welsh squad?

Injury has forced lancasters hand. The backline are as good as england have, (debatable scrum half choice but Care and Youngs are used equally by Lancaster), front row is first choice unless Corbs gets back to fitness(??), second row are depleted but are good players and back row started most of the autumn internationals.

[wales606]

Well as the 2nd/3rd/4th choice players are now in the starting lineup, it stands to reason that the bench is also going to be weakened.

But just for completeness sake, assuming that the 2nd choice would be the ideal bench player

Youngs - I'd have Webber, but fair enough, 2nd choice
Mako - Corbs at full fitness, but again based on that being rare, 2nd choice
Brookes/Thomas -3rd choice
Easter - As a lock? About 7th choice
Croft - Back row pecking order - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Vunipola, Haskell, then possibly Croft
Wigglesworth - Care is fully fit so for some strange reason he is 2nd choice
Cipriani - 3rd at best
Nowell - Fair enough

So 4 out of the 7 bench players would not be in the 23 if all were fit and firing, and that's not including Mako.

Care to do the same for the Welsh squad?

They are talking about player pool depth, not 1st choice 2nd choice in the team/squad. England have a lot more club teams and therefore a lot more international standard player, probably more than any country in the world - as even though France have a large number of clubs, they hardly contain any french players

[LordDowlais]

Well as the 2nd/3rd/4th choice players are now in the starting lineup, it stands to reason that the bench is also going to be weakened.

But just for completeness sake, assuming that the 2nd choice would be the ideal bench player

Youngs - I'd have Webber, but fair enough, 2nd choice
Mako - Corbs at full fitness, but again based on that being rare, 2nd choice
Brookes/Thomas -3rd choice
Easter - As a lock? About 7th choice
Croft - Back row pecking order - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Vunipola, Haskell, then possibly Croft
Wigglesworth - Care is fully fit so for some strange reason he is 2nd choice
Cipriani - 3rd at best
Nowell - Fair enough

So 4 out of the 7 bench players would not be in the 23 if all were fit and firing, and that's not including Mako.

Care to do the same for the Welsh squad?

BamBam, what I am saying is, England do have a raft of injuries, but they can STILL put the side out that they are, if Wales had as many injuries has England have, then we would not be able to compete, Wales are favourites because they are playing in Cardiff and have a first fifteen fit, but even now, our bench is not strong enough, if Samson Lee get injured we are screwed.

[BamBam]

I'm actually happy enough with the team in the circumstances, whether it's injury or form that has put together some of the combinations, but its just peeing me off how some posters are talking up England so much, which i'm fairly sure is just so they can enjoy gloating even more afterwards should we lose

If Lawes and Launchbury were starting at lock, I'd be confident of a win, without them I reckon we are looking at a 5-10 point loss, that's the difference having that pairing in the side

[TheRugbyMaster]

Yes when you put it like that it's a 90% first choice England so no excuses there!. Always going to be injuries in key spots. Rugby is now a squad game and nobody has better depth than England.

[LordDowlais]

Also, welcome to the forum TheRugbyMaster, tell us all a little bit about yourself.

[BamBam]

I agree we have a large player pool, and yes that squad is stronger than what Wales would put out with a similar injury list, I was more responding to comments like

Barney, I am not saying that England are favourites, but you have to admit, even with all your injuries, that is a stronger squad than what Wales could ever hope to have.

(not singling you out LD, just happened to be the one that I responded to)

With the BIB implying even in a full first choice scenario. If I've misread, then fair enough

[BamBam]

Yes when you put it like that it's a 90% first choice England so no excuses there!. Always going to be injuries in key spots. Rugby is now a squad game and nobody has better depth than England.

[BamBam]

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/centres-burrell-and-joseph-start-cardiff/

23 officially named, I'll add it to the OP

If we have a injury in the back 3, we are royally screwed

edit - someone's beaten me to it! :S

[Ozzy3213]

JJ has played wing so I would imagine would go into the back three in the case of an injury.

[Jimpy]

Nowell is in the squad!

He may have been in the squad, but he's not in the line-up - this was announced yesterday.

[BamBam]

Didn't realise, I'd assumed he would be in the 23 shirt and Twelvetrees was just there as centre cover but wouldn't be in the 23.

Ozzy - makes sense, I guess JJ at wing is preferable to Ford/Cips playing 12!

[LondonTiger]

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/centres-burrell-and-joseph-start-cardiff/

23 officially named, I'll add it to the OP

If we have a injury in the back 3, we are royally screwed

edit - someone's beaten me to it! :S

Watson covers FB, Joseph covers wing.

Alternative would be for Nowell instead of 36 - meaning we would still have a novice covering FB and also covering the centres. Cips at 12 or May at 13 would scare me royally. Never an ideal situation unless you have any genuine utility players.

[BamBam]

Although if it came down to Ford/Cips playing 12, I wonder if Croft could do a job there in an emergency, i'd back him to run past Roberts

[Alex_Germany]

A fit and firing Corbisiero would be 1st choice, so 2 in the pack are genuinely 1st choice.

The last time England had to dig this deep ....... they came closer to beating New Zealand away than Wales have. Ever.

[BamBam]

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/centres-burrell-and-joseph-start-cardiff/

23 officially named, I'll add it to the OP

If we have a injury in the back 3, we are royally screwed

edit - someone's beaten me to it! :S

Watson covers FB, Joseph covers wing.

Alternative would be for Nowell instead of 36 - meaning we would still have a novice covering FB and also covering the centres. Cips at 12 or May at 13 would scare me royally. Never an ideal situation unless you have any genuine utility players.

Yeah true, although I'm sure Nowell might have played a bit of 13 this season, probably more suited to it than May too.

We just don't seem to produce the types that Australia seem to have a stack of, the James O'Connor or Kurtley Beale types who can do adequately at centre or the back 3

[LordDowlais]

We just don't seem to produce the types that Australia seem to have a stack of, the James O'Connor or Kurtley Beale types who can do adequately at centre or the back 3

Or like Wales, James Hook, Liam Willimas types.

[lostinwales]

We just don't seem to produce the types that Australia seem to have a stack of, the James O'Connor or Kurtley Beale types who can do adequately at centre or the back 3

Or like Wales, James Hook, Liam Willimas types.

We have Tait *sigh....

[BamBam]

We just don't seem to produce the types that Australia seem to have a stack of, the James O'Connor or Kurtley Beale types who can do adequately at centre or the back 3

Or like Wales, James Hook, Liam Willimas types.

Yep, them too, although has Williams played centre? Most countries do have one or two of those guys other than us it seems!

Ireland - Earls
Wales - North, Hook,
Australia - JOC, Beale
NZ - Smith
SA - Pietersen, Steyn
Scotland - Lamont (in his prime!) Max Evans when he was in favour

[LordDowlais]

We have Tait *sigh....

I was watching the 2005 6N the other night on BBC, Gavin Henson did him no favours in that first game, welcome to international rugby kid, why o why did the England selectors/coaches chuck him in for that game ? It must have put him back at least four or five years.

[BamBam]

Because Andy Robinson was a moron

[beshocked]

Ah, after an absence of several months due to being away with work, its a return to the forum for me.

I see some things havent changed.

Anyway, for what its worth, I think Wales will edge it, they showed in the Autumn that they can run the top teams close at home by playing a high intensity game from the outset. I know they lost narrowly on a couple of occasions, but they were playing SH opposition. Against England in the 6N.... well, could be different, the 6N aren't the AIs and for some reason, Wales do not usually get off to a sprint start. On the other hand, if they play with anything like the initial intensity thay showed in the AI then they will have to much for England IMO - or at least, England will have too much to do to catch up and win.

England are somewhat unquantifiable at the moment  and herein lies their strength. Mix it up and match Welsh intensity, and England could win but it wont be by much. Stick to the old SL methods and they'll be bogged down in midfield, and then turned over, they'll lose.

The lack of cover at 2nd row is a concern for England, not least because England's line-out options are limited as it is at the moment. If Hartley gets binned or even sent off or substituted, we're left with TY erratic throwing and it'll be difficult to maintain parity at set-piece. We need a proper line-out operator.

Other than that, fairly happy with the selection. A year ago I laughed at people who suggested Cips should get a run out - i'm not so scornful now. Easter is in good club form, so i'll be interested to see how he goes.

Beshocked will be glad to see Nowell sent home i'm sure ;-)

Agree with most of that. Good post

I wouldn't be against Nowell wearing the 23 shirt (he's an improved player 12 months on).

Things change - Care and Farrell are no longer the ideal half back combo. Ford is a much improved player.

Joseph has emerged as the obvious choice at 13. Watson and May have made the wings their own. Easter has been rewarded a bench option for his strong club form.


alex germany a fit and firing Corbisiero is as rare as a sighting of the Loch ness monster. He's injured more often than not.

People shouldn't worry about seeing Mako on the bench - he's been in good form this season.

[Geordie]

Johnny May has played centre and FB for Glos. Not loads but he has done it.

I'd have considered Slade somewhere. Playing very well and can cover a range of positions.

Lets hope the locks don't get injured...Attwood and Kruis.

[Rugby Fan]

We just don't seem to produce the types that Australia seem to have a stack of, the James O'Connor or Kurtley Beale types who can do adequately at centre or the back 3

We used to: Mat Tait, James Simpson-Daniel and Delon Armitage are prime examples.

I raised this same point in the Autumn to explain why Lancaster experimented with Manu on the wing, and also why Farrell is one of the few players to give him some flexibility with how he selects is bench.

[lostinwales]

We have Tait *sigh....

I was watching the 2005 6N the other night on BBC, Gavin Henson did him no favours in that first game, welcome to international rugby kid, why o why did the England selectors/coaches chuck him in for that game ? It must have put him back at least four or five years.

It was a heavy tackle but he kept possession. The biggest problem was with the selectors rather than him. I believe he was dropped right after. He has had more than his fair share of injury problems but he does seem to be one of the big unfulfilled talents of English rugby.

For all the up and down relationship we(well some) have with Lancaster the best thing about him is that he handles the young players really well. Tait would have done a lot better had he been an emerging player now.

[cb]

Probably re-iterating what other posters have said, but would have liked Kitchener to at least be on the bench, if not starting. Our replacement for a second row is then a bit hotch-potch.  Also I am sure Wales will be very physical, so again a proper second row or replacement second row rather than a makeshift solution.  With Youngs as replacement hooker, Kitchener made more sense.

Croft does not seem to have played much rugby since returning and Gibson seems still to have that position with Leicester.  Also Croft is not most physical player.

In the backs, Wrigglesworth and Twelvetrees seem more steady players rather than explosive.  Care or Simpson might have been at the other end of the spectrum, though the choice at centre is limited.

Hope England play well, Wales must still be favourites but slightly worried about the balance and impact from the bench.

[beshocked]

Bench doesn't worry me at all.

Mako - in good form, his much maligned scrummaging has been good (holding his own against the European giants of Munster and Clermont).

Not too worried about Croft or Easter on the bench to be honest - both bring plenty of experience and have different strengths.

Croft can be brought on if the lineout is a bit shaky. Easter would bring some more control from the back of the base.

Wigglesworth is the best box kicker in England and was influential in victories over Munster and Clermont.

Cipriani - on the bench well deserving spot and.

[LondonTiger]

Apparently Cips only in because Myler has a calf strain. Hope that does not make him try too hard to make an impression should he come on.

[George Carlin]

On a bit of community news, apparently someone let all the air out of the England team bus tyres this morning and wrote 'Roof Open, Bitches' on the side of the bus in red spray paint.

The Daily Mail managed to get this shot of the perpetrator through an RFU security camera just before he lumbered off:

[beshocked]

Londontiger I didn't know that but that's a very valid point.

Cipriani has given away many a charge down in his small appearances for England, I hope he doesn't make another costly error on his return.

Interesting isn't it?

Some examples of redemption -

Haskell - playing in SH and France - now back in England - starting again.
Cipriani - playing in SH - now back in England - on the bench
Easter - left out in the cold after the 2011 RWC - now on the bench


Undoubtedly if S.Armitage had come back to England he would have been in the England squad - missed opportunity for him.

[BamBam]

Was Haskell ever completely out of the picture though? He went on a little tour of France, Japan and NZ but it was always acknowledged that he'd be back at some point I thought

[Geordie]

Bench doesn't worry me at all.

Mako - in good form, his much maligned scrummaging has been good (holding his own against the European giants of Munster and Clermont).

Not too worried about Croft or Easter on the bench to be honest - both bring plenty of experience and have different strengths.

Croft can be brought on if the lineout is a bit shaky. Easter would bring some more control from the back of the base.

Wigglesworth is the best box kicker in England and was influential in victories over Munster and Clermont.

Cipriani - on the bench well deserving spot and.

And you'd be happy with them at second row should either of Attwood or Kruis get injured? Easter at a push...but Croft a lock at international level....erm no thanks.

[beshocked]

Bambam he was out of the England reckoning for a while though with Woodshaw being Lancaster's go to 6,7 combo (I guess one could argue it still is).

Also Haskell has gone from a country hopper to Wasps captain. I would say that Haskell's stock has gone up now he's back in England.

Geordiefalcon at least Croft would be able to assist with the lineout.

[maestegmafia]

A fit and firing Corbisiero would be 1st choice, so 2 in the pack are genuinely 1st choice.

The last time England had to dig this deep ....... they came closer to beating New Zealand away than Wales have. Ever.

Apart from when Wales have beaten NZ

[lostinwales]

Haskell was just plain knackered for a while I believe.

All these subplots. Cipriani is hopefully a much more mature version of what we had before and it sounds like some of the old pace and skills are back. Apparently he even makes the odd tackle. He has had a number of good write ups playing behind a pack that has been second best, and that for a fly half is rare indeed. If his decision making is up to speed if/when he comes on he could do very well.

[Geordie]

Yes the lineout...that all I ever hear about Croft....well he's good in the lineout and quick.

Woop di dooo.....

He is lightweight...going to be very ineffective scrumming down at 4/5.

[Scottrf]

Worried about the Roberts/Burrell matchup. Roberts destroyed him in the Saints v Metro game, with Luther missing I think 6 tackles and conceding 3 turnovers despite only getting the ball about 4 times.

[TightHEAD]

A fit and firing Corbisiero would be 1st choice, so 2 in the pack are genuinely 1st choice.

The last time England had to dig this deep ....... they came closer to beating New Zealand away than Wales have. Ever.

Apart from when Wales have beaten NZ

Not in most of ours life times they haven't

[TightHEAD]

Yes the lineout...that all I ever hear about Croft....well he's good in the lineout and quick.

Woop di dooo.....

He is lightweight...going to be very ineffective scrumming down at 4/5.

Don't worry Croft will be injured by the Friday anyway.

[Jimpy]

A fit and firing Corbisiero would be 1st choice, so 2 in the pack are genuinely 1st choice.

The last time England had to dig this deep ....... they came closer to beating New Zealand away than Wales have. Ever.

Apart from when Wales have beaten NZ

Sheep were still fish then...

[lostinwales]

Yes the lineout...that all I ever hear about Croft....well he's good in the lineout and quick.

Woop di dooo.....

He is lightweight...going to be very ineffective scrumming down at 4/5.

He has done it in the past, but its not ideal. Other stuff he has. Great hands. Solid is not destructive tackler. Good brain. Covers more grass than anyone else and gets to the breakdown first.

And for all the talk of lacking power, some of his best performances were for the Lions against SA. That may be because there was enough bulk elsewhere in the pack, but still..

They may be thinking of the Youngs/Croft line out combo. Certainly bringing him on won't do that side of our game any harm at all

[TightHEAD]

If he makes it to the warm up at the MS that is!

[Jimpy]

Yes the lineout...that all I ever hear about Croft....well he's good in the lineout and quick.

Woop di dooo.....

He is lightweight...going to be very ineffective scrumming down at 4/5.

He would, however, only be there if it were as an injury replacement - and he isn't exactly light-weight, I wouldn't want to tackle him, or scrum against him - he made a decent enough job of it as a B&I Lion I seem to recall. Injury prone - definately, but not a light-weight (maybe for a second row he is, but not half bad as an emergency back-up). He is a good line-out operator in any case.

[Notch]

So England are playing 'Hymns and Arias' over loudspeakers in training to acclimatise to the atmosphere?

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