Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

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Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[Jimpy]

So England are playing 'Hymns and Arias' over loudspeakers in training to acclimatise to the atmosphere?

No, it was media hype. As usual.

[SecretFly]

On a bit of community news, apparently someone let all the air out of the England team bus tyres this morning and wrote 'Roof Open, Bitches' on the side of the bus in red spray paint.

The Daily Mail managed to get this shot of the perpetrator through an RFU security camera just before he lumbered off:

The Return of the Gat.

A rugby year isn't the same without his grafitti spray can

[Biltong]

Here is something to ponder.

What percentage of regular test matches per position have each country's players who are first choice actually played?

Then, considering that substitutions these days are impact players and often even better in the 20 minutes than the players they replace.

Should a team's strength be measured on the best 30 players?

And if so, is there such a thing as a first choice run on team?

In my personal opinion a team should be measured on their best 30 players and not only who is the starting XV. Depth these days are almost more important than the best 15.

[Notch]

So England are playing 'Hymns and Arias' over loudspeakers in training to acclimatise to the atmosphere?

No, it was media hype. As usual.

Simon Thomas the Welsh rugby jour no has just tweeted that they are from Englands training ground in Surrey, where he and other members of the press are watching them train.

[Ozzy3213]

Must be true if a Welsh journo has said it!

[BamBam]

Yes the lineout...that all I ever hear about Croft....well he's good in the lineout and quick.

Woop di dooo.....

He is lightweight...going to be very ineffective scrumming down at 4/5.

He has done it in the past, but its not ideal. Other stuff he has. Great hands. Solid is not destructive tackler. Good brain. Covers more grass than anyone else and gets to the breakdown first.

And for all the talk of lacking power, some of his best performances were for the Lions against SA. That may be because there was enough bulk elsewhere in the pack, but still..

They may be thinking of the Youngs/Croft line out combo. Certainly bringing him on won't do that side of our game any harm at all

Simon Shaw played in those Lions tests, so there was definitely enough bulk elsewhere! He also only got a shot because Ferris got injured..

I like Croft, but if he ends up at lock I'd be worried as it means we'd have lost 2 of Attwood, Kruis and Easter.

[lostinwales]

Worried about the Roberts/Burrell matchup. Roberts destroyed him in the Saints v Metro game, with Luther missing I think 6 tackles and conceding 3 turnovers despite only getting the ball about 4 times.

Burrell got concussed and Saints had a terrible day all round. So, things might not be so one sided come Friday.

Last year the 36/Burrell combo kept Roberts pretty quiet. Last year was at home but we played well vs Wales. They were well beaten.

It is worth remembering that the last few years the games have generally been close. 2013 was the anomaly

[Notch]

Must be true if a Welsh journo has said it!

I didn't hear it through the media first hand and haven't been following the discussion, just surprised to read that they are doing that at a public training session.

[Jimpy]

So England are playing 'Hymns and Arias' over loudspeakers in training to acclimatise to the atmosphere?

No, it was media hype. As usual.

Simon Thomas the Welsh rugby jour no has just tweeted that they are from Englands training ground in Surrey, where he and other members of the press are watching them train.

Ah - well, the press had said that england were doing this from monday this week, and they wren't. So, if they are now, it'll be the first thing the 'Journos' have got right all week.

[Geordie]

I repeat it will if they pack him down at 4 /5 and Wales decide to grind the scrums.

Croft is a weak 6. He is a luxury....putting him in the engine room is asking for trouble.

I have the same feelings about him that I do about Twelvetrees.

[Scottrf]

Worried about the Roberts/Burrell matchup. Roberts destroyed him in the Saints v Metro game, with Luther missing I think 6 tackles and conceding 3 turnovers despite only getting the ball about 4 times.

Burrell got concussed and Saints had a terrible day all round. So, things might not be so one sided come Friday.

Last year the 36/Burrell combo kept Roberts pretty quiet. Last year was at home but we played well vs Wales. They were well beaten.

It is worth remembering that the last few years the games have generally been close. 2013 was the anomaly

Well, he didn't start the game concussed. He got dominated first. I hope you're right, but I've not been impressed with his form all season. His handling seems to have regressed too.

[George Carlin]

I've also managed to find this shot of Jake Ball meeting Tom Croft last week:

[beshocked]

Funny thing about Croft is that he has had some cracking games for England in the 6 nations but of course he's also injury ravaged. Perhaps I am just discounting Croft's poor games to be positive.

His speed could be a real asset - Imagine him on the shoulder of Billy if Billy can break through - Croft's speed would come in handy indeed.

Croft's the kind of player you use when the game is more open, if it's an arm wrestle it's not good of course but he does have his uses.

It's been mentioned before that it's almost role reversal - Wales will be bringing the brutal power and big guys whilst England will be bringing a more athletic and pacier team.

Easter is a no 8 who likes to offload, Mako is a loosehead who is known for his carrying,Croft for his pace, Cipriani for his flair, T.Youngs is a pretty tricky customer,Twelvetrees is supposedly the complete package in the centres (pace,power,playmaker etc) Only Wigglesworth is a conservative player and yet he's helped his team score 4 and 3 tries vs Clermont and Munster.

Personally I think the English pack would favour a faster tempo game which would also help utilise the backline whereas Wales will look to the boot of halfpenny,force penalties at the breakdown and the set piece for solace.

Closing the roof should favour England if all goes to plan.....

[TightHEAD]

But surely if the roof is closed and the air is cold outside then the heat of 80000 people will make the ball greasy, keep the roof open and play our own game.

[lostinwales]

I've also managed to find this shot of Jake Ball meeting Tom Croft last week:

Good but Croft is taller

[SecretFly]

My sources tell me this is Henson - and wardrobe - being transported in by Gats under cover of some pretend military manoeuvres passing through Cardiff.

The English are up shyte creek here, I'm afraid.  They've been outpropagandised.

[cb]

Beshocked,  I think in his own way Croft is a very good player but I cannot imagine anything other than an armwrestle on Friday against Wales.  England may like a more fluid game, but I do not think it will happen.

Tongue in cheek, I would like to have seen Garvey at BS.

[bluestonevedder]

All the indications point to England playing with an open game plan. 

Funny selection. If you'd have shown me this team selection back  last summer after the NZ tour, I'd have been utterly confused and disheartened. However, given the current injury crisis, I'm actually really happy with it. Easter on the bench is a great call in my opinion, and he'll provide some much-needed experience from the bench. I'm happy to see Joseph starting and hope he shows his domestic form. Croft is an odd one but not necessarily bad. He must have been on fire in training which can only be good. I was hoping to see Kitchener but maybe against Italy. 

36 on the bench is my only gripe. Surely he starts or not at all. If other centres were fit, I doubt he'd be there.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Burrell - Roberts match up will be interesting. Depends on which JR turns up - will it be feet-for-hands Jamie or Bulldozer Roberts. Either way he'll probably go off injured. If Burrell is struggling then put Croft in the line - he'll waltz his way past.

I think Croft is absolute class and brings something different off the bench. He does require a balanced BR though. We have to hope Billy V lasts the 80.

[Geordie]

I think Burrell will prove the doubters wrong.

I actually like the starting side...its the bench that worries me.

We should be able to really get at them and attack them.

Some of these lads are going to have to put in some massive shift on Friday....players like Kruis etc need to really show how

[pledgeX]

The thing I don't understand is Easter on the bench. I have no problem with him playing at 8. However, surely Haskell can cover 8 better than Easter can cover lock?

[bluestonevedder]

I think Burrell has to prove the doubters wrong GF. He has a good strike rate in international rugby, but his performance against Racing was dire, and we certainly can't afford a repeat of that. Don't know whether the early knock affected him.

[Geordie]

But he has generally played well this season Eddie.

[Scottrf]

Disagree. Apart from a few standout games I think he's had a lot of nothing games and been quite error prone. Not that I don't think he's a good player, but he's well below last season IMO. Not writing him off, we shall see.

[Geordie]

Well that's ok then...drop him and put the consistently excellent Twelvetrees in there....oh hang on. Calamity Billy.

[bluestonevedder]

But he has generally played well this season Eddie.

Yeh, I just hope he's learnt a lot about Robert's game from that match and is more prepared!

What do you think of Brookes pushing for regular appearances for England now? I've was so impressed with him during the AIs. His carrying in the tight was particularly impressive.

[Scottrf]

Well that's ok then...drop him and put the consistently excellent Twelvetrees in there....oh hang on. Calamity Billy.

Didn't say drop him, just that that area was a concern.

[Geordie]

Eddie

Brookes is not at Cole's level or Wilson actually. But he's progressing...and obviously thinks he progress a lot more with Saints. Which he may do.

He'll remain 3rd choice for a while though. And he has competition from Sinkler etc aswell.

[Bathman_in_London]

The thing I don't understand is Easter on the bench. I have no problem with him playing at 8. However, surely Haskell can cover 8 better than Easter can cover lock?

To me that is showing a lack of faith in Billy V to last even close to 80 minutes. I think there will be a pre arranged plan of Billy knowing he has 55 minutes, giving it all for then, and then coming off. Unless there are injuries the locks will stay the course surely?

[The Saint]

Given the team and bench Gats has picked, it's clear the intention is to wear england down. Given the contrasting depth of both teams I don't think that's possible, however I do think it's a tactic that would work against Scotland, Italy and possibly France. We needed a fresher perspective against england (and Ireland); I hope the boyo's continue to show some variation otherwise we will lose.

[offload]

I don't get Easter and Croft on the bench. Is Easter the next best lock available to SL? Surely he won't bring Croft on if he loses 4 or 5?

Two years ago SL messed about with people out of position and contributed to the loss. Looks to me like the XV is the best he has available but the bench is a surprise.

[Alex_Germany]

The weather forecast looks good, so they'll probably play with the roof open.

I'm not sure what that changes, but it certainly seems to worry Gatland. Does he think Wales can't play outdoors?

[maestegmafia]

Must be true if a Welsh journo has said it!

I wonder what Andy Howell says....!

[SecretFly]

The weather forecast looks good, so they'll probably play with the roof open.

I'm not sure what that changes, but it certainly seems to worry Gatland. Does he think Wales can't play outdoors?

Get with the times, Alex.  Professionalism, modernism, science, artifical and crowds that don't like rain and things in their placticised beer'n'food. Indoor air-conditioned comfort and corporate spendour................  that's where rugby is going.

Roofdom is the new black in Professional Rugbydom.  It ain't going nowhere except 'Closed' to a stadium near you soon.  Grass and clouds and weather is for the B&W age.

[doctor_grey]

Here is something to ponder.

What percentage of regular test matches per position have each country's players who are first choice actually played?

Then, considering that substitutions these days are impact players and often even better in the 20 minutes than the players they replace.

Should a team's strength be measured on the best 30 players?

And if so, is there such a thing as a first choice run on team?

In my personal opinion a team should be measured on their best 30 players and not only who is the starting XV. Depth these days are almost more important than the best 15.

My goodness, Biltong, this is very deep. The analysis you are requesting/suggesting is far too deep for a simple lad like myself. Seems like we need a few math and stats geniuses to develop the proper algorithm to get this done. Cripe, I was in surgery a little while ago and your suggestion kept running through my mind. Almost attached the poor bugger's left hand to his arse!

Until the analysis is complete, I agree with you. To me, Rugby really seemed that it stopped being a 15 man sport when we went to 7 (and now 8) substitutes about 15 years ago. And with current injury rates, a full squad of 30 - 32 top quality players is just about a must. However, each player that goes out and plays still needs to have some sort of edge on the guy on the other team. That will never change.

[englandglory4ever]

Can someone please explain what possible good Croft is? Don't say he's good in the line out please. He is a back row player.

[Guest]

The weather forecast looks good, so they'll probably play with the roof open.

I'm not sure what that changes, but it certainly seems to worry Gatland. Does he think Wales can't play outdoors?

Get with the times, Alex.  Professionalism, modernism, science, artifical and crowds that don't like rain and things in their placticised beer'n'food.  Indoor air-conditioned comfort and corporate spendour................  that's where rugby is going.

Roofdom is the new black in Professional Rugbydom.  It ain't going nowhere except 'Closed' to a stadium near you soon.  Grass and clouds and weather is for the B&W age.

If that's what England want, then that's what England get

[nlpnlp]

Do New Zealand rely on their subs to be impact subs and win them the game? Although they have won a few games late on recently I wouldn't generally say that was the case. I would say that whatever 15 they start with are currently better than any other 15 they play against. The impact player in the NH/SA tend to be someone who is over sized (weight) and can't play for 60/80 minutes - an Andy Powell, Mako Vunipola, Vahaamahina, etc. New Zealand don't seem to go down that route.

I may be wearing fern tinted glasses, but the impact sub seems to be the darling of the second string team and teams would be better getting a group of players that can play together as a 15, rather than as individuals.

[No 7&1/2]

Croft is fast, great lineout (like it or not it is a factor). Not as lightweight as sometimes suggested though not a great carrier in the tight but as long as others pick this up ie Vunipola, Youngs shouldn't be too bad. Very good tackler. Basic summation granted.

[BamBam]

I don't know about "rely on" but they certainly used the likes of Beauden Barrett as an impact sub, and a completely different kind of threat at 10 to Cruden/Carter.

Australia use Will Skelton as a completely different type of impact sub, so I don't think its just a NH/SA thing

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

Can someone please explain what possible good Croft is? Don't say he's good in the line out please. He is a back row player.

Being good in the line out and being a back row player aren't mutually exclusive mate.

[Jimpy]

Can someone please explain what possible good Croft is? Don't say he's good in the line out please. He is a back row player.

He's good in the line-out you know.

[Scottrf]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

[Jimpy]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

I'm in two minds about Tom's inclusion.

At his best, Croft is a guaranteed ball-winner and a permanent threat to opposition ball. Also, at his best around the pitch Croft still has much more to offer than some give him credit for.

I know he's been injured for a long time, but it's weird just how much has been forgotten. He's a world-class performer. A genuine, top-flight international. Whilst Croft still has to get back to where he was before injury, at his best he was considered by many as world class. He'll be back to his best before the season is out and I'm confident he will probably be in the WC team - let alone squad.

On the other hand, the problem for Croft (and in many people's eyes) is that the game has changed - the competition for the ball at the breakdown is much more fierce. Instead of just being the 7s role it requires the 6 and 8 to do that too.

To enable Croft to lurk on the wing (which incidentally, isn't 'all' that he does) you have to have the ball stealing/securing - When Cole and Youngs are playing there are two front rows who do a good impression of a 7. As for our current 7 - well, you tell me...

When an out and out 7 is playing, Croft can do what he's best at. However if they are not there England will be exposed at the breakdown. The same applies to Tom Wood - another brilliant player who can only be used by England if the right support is around him. If it were Armitage at 7 for England rather than Robshaw it might be different - particularly with Cole and Lawes in the side.

Croft hasn't become a poor player - it's the game that's changed. Can he show us what he really can do on Friday?

Oh, and he's good in the line-out.

[LondonTiger]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

When coaches select the players we rate, they are geniuses.
When they don't they are fools.

When they select the players we rate, and win, well they should listen to us more.
When they select the players we don't, and lose, well they should listen to us more.

When they select the players we rate and lose, well they were unlucky and next week it will all be good so long as they do what we say.
When they select the players we dont and win, well they were lucky and next week it will all go wrong unless they do as we say.


That is the way.
As it was
And as it always shall be.

[SecretFly]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

When coaches select the players we rate, they are geniuses.
When they don't they are fools.

When they select the players we rate, and win, well they should listen to us more.
When they select the players we don't, and lose, well they should listen to us more.

When they select the players we rate and lose, well they were unlucky and next week it will all be good so long as they do what we say.
When they select the players we dont and win, well they were lucky and next week it will all go wrong unless they do as we say.


That is the way.
As it was
And as it always shall be.

Beautiful.

[doctor_grey]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

When coaches select the players we rate, they are geniuses.
When they don't they are fools.

When they select the players we rate, and win, well they should listen to us more.
When they select the players we don't, and lose, well they should listen to us more.

When they select the players we rate and lose, well they were unlucky and next week it will all be good so long as they do what we say.
When they select the players we dont and win, well they were lucky and next week it will all go wrong unless they do as we say.


That is the way.
As it was
And as it always shall be.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

[maestegmafia]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

Thry used to until he went on the lions tour.

[nathan]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

Thry used to until he went on the lions tour.

He's been injured since then hasn't he?

[Scottrf]

Yeah, when he's injured he's simply not good enough.

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