Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

[BamBam]

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Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[gregortree]

All of the professional coaches seem to favour Croft, but none of the fans?

When coaches select the players we rate, they are geniuses.
When they don't they are fools.

When they select the players we rate, and win, well they should listen to us more.
When they select the players we don't, and lose, well they should listen to us more.

When they select the players we rate and lose, well they were unlucky and next week it will all be good so long as they do what we say.
When they select the players we dont and win, well they were lucky and next week it will all go wrong unless they do as we say.


That is the way.
As it was
And as it always shall be.

Oh Tiger, then I hope (but do not necessarily expect) that England management prove to be geniuses come 10.05 pm on the 6th, having listened to the correct set of fans and ignoed the others.

[Poorfour]

Yes the lineout...that all I ever hear about Croft....well he's good in the lineout and quick.

Woop di dooo.....

He is lightweight...going to be very ineffective scrumming down at 4/5.

He would, however, only be there if it were as an injury replacement - and he isn't exactly light-weight, I wouldn't want to tackle him, or scrum against him - he made a decent enough job of it as a B&I Lion I seem to recall. Injury prone - definately, but not a light-weight (maybe for a second row he is, but not half bad as an emergency back-up). He is a good line-out operator in any case.

Everyone seems to be assuming Croft is the Lock cover. I think it's Easter. Last season he played a string of games at lock for Quins because of injuries and (though he personally said he hated it) did a good job. It was rumoured at the time that Lancaster had spoken to him about his best chance of an international recall being if he could also play 4.

Croft is much better used as a blindside. Easter's a good lineout receiver (though Croft is better at stealing) and adds enough heft in the scrum.

[gregortree]

Will the scrums collapse at the Milly as the turf rolls up like poorly laid cheap Axminster ?
And who will Monsieur Garcès ping when it does ?

[englandglory4ever]

We've had all the usual Croft platitudes in the posts above. Good performer, world class, etc. But what blinking good is he? He hangs around on the wing, leaves the pack one-short, can't tackle to stop, is not a ball carrier, is definitely not physical at the breakdown and lightweight in the maul. He also doesn't push in the scrum. But he is light as a feather and can be thrown in the air at the lineout. I know why don't England play with14 only?

[englandglory4ever]

Jenkins can't take the pressure so turns his hips out and bores in. Just hope the ref spots it early.

[Guest]

Will the scrums collapse at the Milly as the turf rolls up like poorly laid cheap Axminster ?
And who will Monsieur Garcès ping when it does ?

The Millennium stadium now has a hybrid pitch, it held up pretty well in the autumn despite looking a bit bare

[Chjw131]

I don't know what people are getting in such a state about. It's probably the best possible selection available to us at the moment. Everyone gets in who's on form, most notably Joseph. All the positions are covered to the best possible degree given the limitations.

Easter is the lock cover and as much as i'd like to have seen Kitchener get a shirt I can well see the logic in selecting Easter. He's got the experience and he's played lock several times before. In a team shorn of leaders like Tom Wood, Easter makes a strong case for inclusion. He's also very good in the line-out and re-start.

Croft, whilst he's not everyone's cup of tea is a mercurial sort of forward. He's a double Lion with good reason. Indeed he's played at BS in one of the most physical Lions tours going. He's world class in the line-out and again provides real experience and leadership from the bench. Unlike Clark who would've been a debutant.

[Poorfour]

We've had all the usual Croft platitudes in the posts above. Good performer, world class, etc. But what blinking good is he? He hangs around on the wing, leaves the pack one-short,  can't tackle to stop, is not a ball carrier, is definitely not physical at the breakdown and lightweight in the maul. He also doesn't push in the scrum. But he is light as a feather and can be thrown in the air at the lineout.  I know why don't England play with14 only?

For me, Croft has blown hot and cold at international level - but he was very good in 2012 when he was paired with Robshaw (and Cole). I think he needs a flank partner with a huge workrate to make room for him to play wider.

[gregortree]

Will the scrums collapse at the Milly as the turf rolls up like poorly laid cheap Axminster ?
And who will Monsieur Garcès ping when it does ?

The Millennium stadium now has a hybrid pitch, it held up pretty well in the autumn despite looking a bit bare

thanks Iron Mike, did not realise that, but it sounds like a good improvement.

I may need to look for a different excuse then.

[maestegmafia]

Jenkins can't take the pressure so turns his hips out and bores in. Just hope the ref spots it early.

Has Hartley ever kept his head in a scrum??? If anyone has video footage over a scrum where Hartley has not stood up, please post it...

[englandglory4ever]

Jenkins can't take the pressure so turns his hips out and bores in. Just hope the ref spots it early.

Has Hartley ever kept his head in a scrum??? If anyone has video footage over a scrum where Hartley has not stood up, please post it...

Deliberately driving upwards is also against the laws. Could be a tough day for the Welsh scrum if the ref reads it right.

[doctor_grey]

Jenkins can't take the pressure so turns his hips out and bores in. Just hope the ref spots it early.

Has Hartley ever kept his head in a scrum??? If anyone has video footage over a scrum where Hartley has not stood up, please post it...

Since Hartley almost never gets pinged for 'standing up' in a scrum, why do you think that is?  I can't imagine almost all referees love him like a lost child and have decided not to penalise the poor lad.  I also can't believe that almost all referees are ignorant about that one particular aspect of the scrummage.  Maybe referees see there are a lot of things happening and he is being forced up............

[maestegmafia]

I'll take the answer to that as a no then...!

[bedfordwelsh]

I never bought into this weakened English team rubbish.

Yes Wales have the more settled and experienced side and I still have us as slight favourites but for me that's a strong back and a very exciting back line which are all on form.

Injuries are sometimes a blessing in dis-guise and I think SL has been forced to pick a more attacking side than he would have done if others were fit.

[doctor_grey]

I'll take the answer to that as a no then...!

Exactly:  No, Hartley is clearly not in violation of laws in the scrummage (as adjudicated by referees in the Premiership, Euro Cup and Internationals)......

Let's see what happens on Friday.

[maestegmafia]

I think a good number of Welsh fans were hoping for a flew of our players to be ruled out to force the coach to try other options that they would favour...

[Barney McGrew did it]

Sorry B/W I think you'll find England have already won the underdog tag battle.

And I'd rather see the English FR stand up rather than the Welsh one chin the mud. At least we could still get the ball out.

[maestegmafia]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

[Barney McGrew did it]

[lostinwales]

Hartley did alright in the scrum in this fixture last year.

Just had a quick look at Wales last year in this fixture compared to this. Starting changes - 2. Samson Lee and Dan Biggar. Biggar was on the subs bench last year, and came on after 61 minutes for Priestland (positions reversed this year.

3 new players on the bench - Scott Baldwin, Aaron Jarvis and Charteris.

Total 4 changes out of 23

England only 10 remain out of that 23.

[doctor_grey]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

All he does is a little 'up periscope', probably driven by the evil opposing prop and hooker. Dylan can do no wrong...........

[maestegmafia]

Hartley did alright in the scrum in this fixture last year.

Just had a quick look at Wales last year in this fixture compared to this. Starting changes - 2. Samson Lee and Dan Biggar. Biggar was on the subs bench last year, and came on after 61 minutes for Priestland (positions reversed this year.

3 new players on the bench - Scott Baldwin, Aaron Jarvis and Charteris.

Total 4 changes out of 23

England only 10 remain out of that 23.

Mostly changed for players that are in form though, as discussed by many people further up the thread.

[jimmyinthewell68]

watched the 2014 England and Wales game on youtube today. wasn't a lot in it to be honest, that Danny care try was sneaky . Our defence just went to sleep . 36 and burrell had a good game.

[maestegmafia]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

All he does is a little 'up periscope', probably driven by the evil opposing prop and hooker.  Dylan can do no wrong...........  

Aye he has a saintly reputation apart from the year he was absent from rugby doing penance...

[Gwlad]

Genius piece by the fat lad Carling on the BBC…..Wales are at disadvantage because the unknown combo's Stewie has picked mean Wales can't predict how they play. Superb spin by the former centre and Captain no wonder he bagged Lady Di, perhaps this has been Stewie's ruse de guerre all along which would explain why he picks a totally different side for every game.

[doctor_grey]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

All he does is a little 'up periscope', probably driven by the evil opposing prop and hooker.  Dylan can do no wrong...........  

Aye he has a saintly reputation apart from the year he was absent from rugby doing penance...

And the purpose of penance?  To obtain forgiveness.  And I have forgiven his trespasses.  
I am sure he appreciates my assistance.

[BamBam]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

You are a card maes

[Poorfour]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

A good ref always looks for the first offence. You shouldn't be penalising someone for dropping their bind if their arm is being yanked free by an illegal bind from the opposing prop, and you shouldn't be penalising a prop for collapsing if the opposing prop is boring in.

In Hartley's case:

10.4 (k) also says that: Front row players must not intentionally lift opponents off their feet or force them upwards out of the scrum.

Clearly referees are interpreting Hartley's popping up as having been driven up by the opposition. In that instance, if it's a penalty, then it's not against Hartley.

[wales606]

Interesting stats,

Of the 42 Six Nations games played between England and Wales in Cardiff, England have won 13.

On each occasion when England have won, they have gone on to win silverware, 12 out of 13 times they have won the tournament with the only exception being in 1997 when they won the triple crown.

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/sport/story/397531.html

[englandglory4ever]

What with Jenkins flipping sideways and Adam Jones deliberately pulling out of the engagement the Welsh well and truly bamboozled the ref last time in Cardiff. Should be better this time.

[Gwlad]

What with Jenkins flipping sideways and Adam Jones deliberately pulling out of the engagement the Welsh well and truly bamboozled the ref last time in Cardiff. Should be better this time.

Surely England lost because Walsh was refereeing, the 30 -3 score line was pure coincidence.

[TheRugbyMaster]

How much relevance will the outcome have to the World Cup pool game? Surely wales must win this one to put them in the right mindset to go to HQ and have a chance? They have battled with the psychological aspect recently, notable lack of fortitude in recurrent losses to SH opposition and the last 10 minutes of the AIs where they not only blew a lead against The All Blacks twice, but then conceded four tries in as many minutes.

[maestegmafia]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

A good ref always looks for the first offence. You shouldn't be penalising someone for dropping their bind if their arm is being yanked free by an illegal bind from the opposing prop, and you shouldn't be penalising a prop for collapsing if the opposing prop is boring in.

In Hartley's case:

10.4 (k) also says that: Front row players must not intentionally lift opponents off their feet or force them upwards out of the scrum.

Clearly referees are interpreting Hartley's popping up as having been driven up by the opposition. In that instance, if it's a penalty, then it's not against Hartley.

So Hartley is a poor scrummager, can't deal with any opposition scrummager? Or is every single team he faces cheating?

Let just suggest That at least some of the opposition were not cheating, the Hartley is breaking the laws of Scrummaging by standing up before the scrum is finished.

[Gwlad]

How much relevance will the outcome have to the World Cup pool game? Surely wales must win this one to put them in the right mindset to go to HQ and have a chance? They have battled with the psychological aspect recently, notable lack of fortitude in recurrent losses to SH opposition and the last 10 minutes of the AIs where they not only blew a lead against The All Blacks twice, but then conceded four tries in as many minutes.

Surely as hosts in a RWC year England can't afford to lose this next game against pool opposition.

[TheRugbyMaster]

He's the best hooker in the world, and all opposing hookers know this and hence entered into a conspiracy to cheat in the same way to undermine him.

[maestegmafia]

What with Jenkins flipping sideways and Adam Jones deliberately pulling out of the engagement the Welsh well and truly bamboozled the ref last time in Cardiff. Should be better this time.

Surely England lost because Walsh was refereeing, the 30 -3 score line was pure coincidence.

The tries and general dominance has nothing to do with it...

Didn't Rowntree comment on the Lions tour in hindsight how much he had underestimated the Welsh pack until he worked with them on tour.

[maestegmafia]

How much relevance will the outcome have to the World Cup pool game? Surely wales must win this one to put them in the right mindset to go to HQ and have a chance? They have battled with the psychological aspect recently, notable lack of fortitude in recurrent losses to SH opposition and the last 10 minutes of the AIs where they not only blew a lead against The All Blacks twice, but then conceded four tries in as many minutes.

Surely as hosts in a RWC year England can't afford to lose this next game against pool opposition.

I would have thought Englands fans would consider that England need to win this championship to prove they can win more than just one off games. They haven't won any competitions since before the last World Cup.

[maestegmafia]

The scrum laws say both that, all front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum and that if a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

When Hartley stands up he is no longer binding so has conceded a penalty, but also referees rarely stop the scrum as per the second part.

I am sure we all wish that the scrum is referred fairly for both sides, as it was in the last game in Cardiff.

All he does is a little 'up periscope', probably driven by the evil opposing prop and hooker.  Dylan can do no wrong...........  

Aye he has a saintly reputation apart from the year he was absent from rugby doing penance...

And the purpose of penance?  To obtain forgiveness.  And I have forgiven his trespasses.  
I am sure he appreciates my assistance.

And the purpose of penance ?

To represent reflection.

Though I think at school we were told that after every reflection the likelihood of repeat behaviour should decrease.

[Gwlad]

How much relevance will the outcome have to the World Cup pool game? Surely wales must win this one to put them in the right mindset to go to HQ and have a chance? They have battled with the psychological aspect recently, notable lack of fortitude in recurrent losses to SH opposition and the last 10 minutes of the AIs where they not only blew a lead against The All Blacks twice, but then conceded four tries in as many minutes.

Surely as hosts in a RWC year England can't afford to lose this next game against pool opposition.

I would have thought Englands fans would consider that England need to win this championship to prove they can win more than just one off games. They haven't won any competitions since before the last World Cup.

For real? not even a 6 Nations?!! I know they have been 1 game away from winning it on, what 4 occasions? But they then seem to have inexplicably lost. That must explain the level of confidence they feel this year; just 1 game away from winning the 6 Nations and the World Cup will fall into their laps.

[maestegmafia]

He's the best hooker in the world, and all opposing hookers know this and hence entered into a conspiracy to cheat in the same way to undermine him.

Your just saying that because he is a kiwi

[maestegmafia]

How much relevance will the outcome have to the World Cup pool game? Surely wales must win this one to put them in the right mindset to go to HQ and have a chance? They have battled with the psychological aspect recently, notable lack of fortitude in recurrent losses to SH opposition and the last 10 minutes of the AIs where they not only blew a lead against The All Blacks twice, but then conceded four tries in as many minutes.

Surely as hosts in a RWC year England can't afford to lose this next game against pool opposition.

I would have thought Englands fans would consider that England need to win this championship to prove they can win more than just one off games. They haven't won any competitions since before the last World Cup.

For real? not even a 6 Nations?!! I know they have been 1 game away from winning it on, what 4 occasions? But they then seem to have inexplicably lost. That must explain the level of confidence they feel this year; just 1 game away from winning the 6 Nations and the World Cup will fall into their laps.

Hope springs eternal

[lostinwales]

How much relevance will the outcome have to the World Cup pool game? Surely wales must win this one to put them in the right mindset to go to HQ and have a chance? They have battled with the psychological aspect recently, notable lack of fortitude in recurrent losses to SH opposition and the last 10 minutes of the AIs where they not only blew a lead against The All Blacks twice, but then conceded four tries in as many minutes.

Surely as hosts in a RWC year England can't afford to lose this next game against pool opposition.

I would have thought Englands fans would consider that England need to win this championship to prove they can win more than just one off games. They haven't won any competitions since before the last World Cup.

For real? not even a 6 Nations?!! I know they have been 1 game away from winning it on, what 4 occasions? But they then seem to have inexplicably lost. That must explain the level of confidence they feel this year; just 1 game away from winning the 6 Nations and the World Cup will fall into their laps.

2011 6 nations

[LondonTiger]

LIW that was before the 2011 RWC

[LondonTiger]

As to any relevance to the match later in the year?

Big fat zero.

[Barney McGrew did it]

But will the headline be “Plucky Wales edge depleted England” or “England B shock sorry Wales” this Friday? My money's on the pluck of the Welsh.

[Poorfour]

So Hartley is a poor scrummager, can't deal with any opposition scrummager? Or is every single team he faces cheating?

Let just suggest That at least some of the opposition were not cheating, the Hartley is breaking the laws of Scrummaging by standing up before the scrum is finished.

And so the "fun" begins...

Look, you're the one who's claiming Hartley keeps popping up and not being penalised. All I have done is point out that there's a legitimate reason in the Laws why a ref might choose not to penalise him.

So since they consistently choose not to penalise him, one of four things must be true:
1) All opposing front rows are consistently cheating in driving Hartley up, and the refs are consistently spotting this
2) All refs are conspiring with Hartley to give him the benefit of the doubt
3) The IRB has achieved consistent refereeing incompetence with regard to this particular offence (and this particular player), despite the evidence of widespread inconsistency in most other aspects of the scrum
4) You are overexaggerating this for (supposedly) comic effect.

Take your pick.

[Poorfour]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

[lostinwales]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

Apparently Brown has to 'penetrate himself'

This article is OK if a little silly, as you could look at the same bunch of players and read things in lots of different ways, although form and last year seem to have nothing to do with it. The article by Corrigan is bordering on offensive

[doctor_grey]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

Apparently Brown has to 'penetrate himself'

This article is OK if a little silly, as you could look at the same bunch of players and read things in lots of different ways, although form and last year seem to have nothing to do with it. The article by Corrigan is bordering on offensive

Brown has to do........exactly what?  I always thought he was kind of a big d*ck, but really now...........

[lostinwales]

By the way, Mick Cleary's given Wales the edge all across the back division in the Telegraph, so it's probably time for someone to wheel out their Corporal Fraser impersonation.

Apparently Brown has to 'penetrate himself'

This article is OK if a little silly, as you could look at the same bunch of players and read things in lots of different ways, although form and last year seem to have nothing to do with it. The article by Corrigan is bordering on offensive

Brown has to do........exactly what?  I always thought he was kind of a big d*ck, but really now...........

This is the sentence in full

Brown has to play father figure to his wings and penetrate himself.

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