Ireland v England - Match Thread

[GunsGerms]

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:



Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

[robbo277]

Lancaster has retained his starting XV from last Saturday along with Twelvetrees (who got a long run out) and Nowell. Maybe he's keeping Nowell is because he's coming into the starting line up if Brown is injured, maybe he's definitely coming in for May, maybe he is just keeping the option open. As Nowell hasn't been sitting on the bench the last couple of weeks having the week off won't affect him as much as someone like Croft, who could do with the minutes.

Lancaster has also retained Launchbury and Manu to rehabilitate with the squad, rather than sending them back to their clubs. Read into that what you will.

[No 7&1/2]

I will be licking my chops if Goode starts though I would prefer a full strength England. We kept Brown out last year we could do it again this year.

He did set up a walk in for Care though. I hope he s fit as for me he offers a greater running threat but Goode is excellent at fielding kicks great kicking game himself as well.

[GunsGerms]

Any chance of starting Matt Banahan in the centre too?

[sickofwendy]

Did anyone see how roko breezed past Goode to score at the weekend?
How can Lancaster say he had a great game after that

[BamBam]

Wouldn't read much into Launchbury being retained, he's out for the season isn't he? I hope we don't rush Manu back either, JJ is doing enough to keep a full strength Manu out of the side, forget about one who hasn't played in 2 months

[Sin é]

Wouldn't read much into Launchbury being retained, he's out for the season isn't he? I hope we don't rush Manu back either, JJ is doing enough to keep a full strength Manu out of the side, forget about one who hasn't played in 2 months

With the real JJ (Hanrahan) going to Northampton next season, you are going to have to find a new name for Jonathan Joseph - something like John Joe!

[BamBam]

Wouldn't read much into Launchbury being retained, he's out for the season isn't he? I hope we don't rush Manu back either, JJ is doing enough to keep a full strength Manu out of the side, forget about one who hasn't played in 2 months

With the real JJ (Hanrahan) going to Northampton next season, you are going to have to find a new name for Jonathan Joseph  - something like John Joe!

Something like .. "The good JJ"?

[rodders]

Anyone fancy England here?

...... no me neither....

[king_carlos]

Launchbury is out of the Six Nations definitely, likely the season.

Manu being rushed back is a genuine worry for me though. He wont start with JJ playing so well but I could see him being put on the bench at some point in the Championship even if it isn't the Ireland game.

My main worry against Ireland is the line-out rather than the back three I must say - even if Brown is out. Hartley whilst usually excellent there has struggled with Wood and Lawes missing. Attwood is a good jumper but against Ireland you ideally want him as a secondary jumper. Kruis is solid but unspectacular in that regard and Haskell/Robshaw can jump when needed at the back of the line-out but not to the standard of Wood. With O'Connell and Toner challenging we could really do with Parling or Lawes back starting and Kruis on the bench.

I'd also be tempted to look at starting Hartley/Lawes or Youngs/Parling together for club partnerships.

1.Marler
2.Hartley or Youngs
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Lawes or Parling
6.Haskell
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola

16.Hartley or Youngs
17.Vunipola
18.Brookes
19.Kruis
20.Croft

I'd be much more confident seeing that against Ireland than Attwood/Kruis at lock and Easter covering from the bench.

[thomh]

Wouldn't read much into Launchbury being retained, he's out for the season isn't he? I hope we don't rush Manu back either, JJ is doing enough to keep a full strength Manu out of the side, forget about one who hasn't played in 2 months

Nah just enough to move him to 12.

[majesticimperialman]

I guess it will depend on the teams each team puts out.

Is their any news on the England injured returning? And if their is should they go straight back in to the team, when the players that are in the team have stepped up with out them?

[thebandwagonsociety]

England have half of the teams remaining in the European Champions Cup.
Their club packs have had more than enough to cope with any Irish provincial pack.
England has the up and coming outhalf, attacking centres along with quick and dangerous back three options.
Ireland could only get 1 player into the BBC team of the week for the last round of this competition.

I guess the writing is on the wall for this match, Ireland might as well not show up at all.

[Cyril]

Ireland might as well not show up at all.

It'll be like that foot-and-mouth scam in 2001 all over again

[LondonTiger]

Wouldn't read much into Launchbury being retained, he's out for the season isn't he? I hope we don't rush Manu back either, JJ is doing enough to keep a full strength Manu out of the side, forget about one who hasn't played in 2 months

Nah just enough to move him to 12.

Bomber may have asked him to have gametime at 12 in the LV semi.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

GF, England have so many options in the back three, all of them with stinging pace!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Great Aukster]

Ireland might as well not show up at all.

It'll be like that foot-and-mouth scam in 2001 all over again

... d'you mean the Ireland Hooker will score a try and stop an England Winger scoring one with a tap tackle - thereby stopping a slam?

[Cyril]

Ireland might as well not show up at all.

It'll be like that foot-and-mouth scam in 2001 all over again

... d'you mean the Ireland Hooker will score a try and stop an England Winger scoring one with a tap tackle - thereby stopping a slam?

I have no idea what you're talking about...

[thomh]

Wouldn't read much into Launchbury being retained, he's out for the season isn't he? I hope we don't rush Manu back either, JJ is doing enough to keep a full strength Manu out of the side, forget about one who hasn't played in 2 months

Nah just enough to move him to 12.

Bomber may have asked him to have gametime at 12 in the LV semi.

He's been taken on a Lions tour as a 12. Nice for him to have a refresher if England want to play him there, but no doubt he can do it.

[Rugby Fan]

GF, England have so many options in the back three, all of them with stinging pace!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lancaster has already said Alex Goode is the likely back-up to Brown. "Stinging pace" isn't a phrase I'd associate with the Saracens man.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Rugby Fan, Goode was not included in my post. I don't have Goode in my options for a back three with the other players available. if another two or three get injured, I might start thinking about him on the bench.

[lostinwales]

GF, England have so many options in the back three, all of them with stinging pace!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lancaster has already said Alex Goode is the likely back-up to Brown. "Stinging pace" isn't a phrase I'd associate with the Saracens man.

Apparently with Goode its 'deceptive pace'

[WELL-PAST-IT]

So deceptive it looks like they have the slomo on

[doctor_grey]

Andy Goode? Fullback? Love it. He really is 'sneaky fast'.

[BamBam]

The Telegraph seem to think May will be dropped for Nowell

[Rugby Fan]

The Telegraph seem to think May will be dropped for Nowell

The Express says the same. Lancaster has said he highlighted the missed try chance in the video review, which seems to put May in the doghouse. It could just be guesswork by the reporters, but this England set-up seems to have no qualms about giving the press early guidance on selection matters.

[majesticimperialman]

The Telegraph seem to think May will be dropped for Nowell

The Express says the same. Lancaster has said he highlighted the missed try chance in the video review, which seems to put May in the doghouse. It could just be guesswork by the reporters, but this England set-up seems to have no qualms about giving the press early guidance on selection matters.

Do you think that the England set up is doing a Warren Gatland and playing mind games?

[Rugby Fan]

The Telegraph seem to think May will be dropped for Nowell

The Express says the same. Lancaster has said he highlighted the missed try chance in the video review, which seems to put May in the doghouse. It could just be guesswork by the reporters, but this England set-up seems to have no qualms about giving the press early guidance on selection matters.

Do you think that the England set up is doing a Warren Gatland and playing mind games?

I think they've just decided to try and keep the press onside. If someone was leaking information, I'm sure Lancaster would put a stop to it. Instead, it looks like they are happy to offer reporters regular informal briefings which gives them a strong indication of how selection thinking is going.

One of the biggest surprises of the ill-fated 2011 World Cup campaign is how much of the fuss was stirred up by so-called rugby correspondents like Cleary. Papers have no duty to be lapdogs to the national team of any sport but their stories gave relatively minor incidents the status of a national scandal. If Lancaster thinks they won't do the same again if he's more transparent, then he's mistaken. However, battling bad press can take a toll, so perhaps his approach offers more leeway over the course of his career.

[bedfordwelsh]

In Watson and Joseph England have two real gems and for me England were more attack minded than they would have been if injury hadn't forced his hand.

Do you guys think Will Manu walk back, not whether you think he deserves to or not but will he? It seems to me that much like Roberts for us SL has plans to build everything around Manu.

[Rugby Fan]

In Watson and Joseph England have two real gems and for me England were more attack minded than they would have been if injury hadn't forced his hand.

Do you guys think Will Manu walk back, not whether you think he deserves to or not but will he?  It seems to me that much like Roberts for us SL has plans to build everything around Manu.

If he had more time before the World Cup, then I suspect Lancaster would try Manu on the wing again. As it stands, I don't think he has enough matches to make it work.

[dummy_half]

I think the Manu on the wing experiment got well and truly put to bed in New Zealand. I only ever want to see him there as injury cover.

Possibilities are Manu at 13 and JJ to the wing, which is where he was at least notionally lining up for most of last week, or them forming a 12-13 partnership. Certainly seen Manu in the 12 jersey at Leicester - the only downside is his lack of a kicking game like 12trees, but then Burrell has been picked at 12 and he doesn't kick much either.

Not sure if Joseph ever plays 12 for Bath - probably not much now with Eastmond, Devoto and Burgess available.

[Poorfour]

I think the Manu on the wing experiment got well and truly put to bed in New Zealand. I only ever want to see him there as injury cover.

Possibilities are Manu at 13 and JJ to the wing, which is where he was at least notionally lining up for most of last week, or them forming a 12-13 partnership. Certainly seen Manu in the 12 jersey at Leicester - the only downside is his lack of a kicking game like 12trees, but then Burrell has been picked at 12 and he doesn't kick much either.

Not sure if Joseph ever plays 12 for Bath - probably not much now with Eastmond, Devoto and Burgess available.

One game, against New Zealand, in New Zealand is hardly a fair test of something that would probably take several games to bed in.

The issue with Manu at 12 is that his first instinct is to run, and it's also his second and third instinct. Passing comes some way down on that list, kicking not at all. With Manu at 12 you are heavily reliant on Plan A. It's a good Plan A, because knowing what he's going to do is one thing and stopping it is another, but it is stoppable. You close off the element of uncertainty and the opposition can focus on hitting him with a good choke tackle - which would totally close down the attack.

The best option might be a reasonably fluid 13-14 arrangement where, say, Manu wears 13 and Joseph 14 but Joseph regularly comes inside. The more I think about this, the more I like it. It varies the point of attack and gives plenty of options. Defensively it probably needs time to bed in but as they are both 13s they are used to defending a broad channel and Joseph has enough recent wing experience to adapt quickly.

Failing that, I'd expect to see one start and one on the bench. Having either as a sub at 55 minutes is a pretty potent option. I've said before it reminds me a bit of the England team of the mid 90s, where de Glanville played 12 and Guscott and Carling were the options at 13. England would generally labour until 60 minutes, at which point Guscott would come on and rip the opposition defence to shreds. At the time I wondered why they left him off for so long, but with age and wisdom you can see that they were waiting until the game started to open up so as to make best use of his talents.

[Geordie]

Should we not have

13's at 13
12's at 12
14's at 14 etc...

Lets see the rest of the 6n before we start proclaiming Joseph the god etc.

IF he continues this form however...and he has been very good defensively also then he must keep the shirt.

Manu will be a massive impact player from the bench.

Its two nice contrasting 13 options to have.

[BamBam]

Has Joseph got the wing experience to play 14 though? Its one thing doing it against Italy when there was barely an attack down that side, and he could just play his attacking game, but positionally surely he'll be targeted by teams with stronger kicking games.

Let them fight it out for the 13 shirt, I wouldn't want to be a tired defender seeing Manu coming on after chasing Joseph's shadows for 60 mins, or conversely I wouldn't want to see Joseph coming on after being battered into submission by Manu for 60 mins

[yappysnap]

Manu at 12 doesn't work, he doesn't have the space there to hit a gap or hit a smaller 13/wing/fb's shoulder and explode through the contact.

At 12 he'll be running into heavy traffic, the flankers and opposition 12's, and dieing with the ball every time. That'd kill our game. It'd force Ford to throw long miss-passes to get any ball to JJ and co which'd be ripe for intercepts.

As long as they're both in form then we should start with one of JJ or Manu at 13 and the other on the bench to come on. No mucking around trying to force squares in to circles.

[beshocked]

No 7 & 1/2 seriously I don't understand..... Ashton has in the last season and half been one of the best wingers in Europe.... he's in good form... you only need to watch him to see that..

Was on short list for European player of the year last season and on the long list this time round.

As I said before he's been influential against sides like Bath,Ulster,Clermont and Munster.

Gunsgerms you weren't licking your lips when Goode was at FB last time, England beat Ireland in Ireland.....Goode managed to hold onto everything you Irish threw at him.


sickofwendy not sure you watched the game - Goode ran the show with two assists and immaculate kicking - Roko got a consolation try when Saracens took the foot off the gas.

Sarries put on replacements which disrupted their momentum as well as not going for the try bonus.

Bath just like last season were only allowed in the game when Saracens reduced their intensity to a level that Bath could handle. For 60 minutes Sarries were far too strong for Bath.

[yappysnap]

Lastly the last time Manu played a series at 13 for England he was pretty Poopie.

I remember him getting slated a hell of a lot for just running in to contact and falling over. People were questioning if he even knew what an offload was a lot of the time, and when he did finally throw them I remember a couple of beauts straight at Ashton's feet at about 60mph.

That's when he even got the ball as most of the time he just jogged about and rucked over like an extra flanker.

I think we're all looking back with rose tinted glasses at the Manu Tuilagi of two years ago.

[thomh]

Lastly the last time Manu played a series at 13 for England he was pretty Poopie.

I remember him getting slated a hell of a lot for just running in to contact and falling over. People were questioning if he even knew what an offload was a lot of the time, and when he did finally throw them I remember a couple of beauts straight at Ashton's feet at about 60mph.

That's when he even got the ball as most of the time he just jogged about and rucked over like an extra flanker.

I think we're all looking back with rose tinted glasses at the Manu Tuilagi of two years ago.

Which series are you talking about? In 2012/2013 it became briefly fashionable to suggest moving him to wing, but he was immense at 13 against SA, NZ and France. Had a shocker against Wales like everyone admittedly.

[No 7&1/2]

No 7 & 1/2 seriously I don't understand..... Ashton has in the last season and half been one of the best wingers in Europe....  he's in good form... you only need to watch him to see that..

Was on short list for European player of the year last season and on the long list this time round.

As I said before he's been influential against sides like Bath,Ulster,Clermont and Munster.

Gunsgerms you weren't licking your lips when Goode was at FB last time, England beat Ireland in Ireland.....Goode managed to hold onto everything you Irish threw at him.


sickofwendy not sure you watched the game - Goode ran the show with two assists and immaculate kicking - Roko got a consolation try when Saracens took the foot off the gas.

Sarries put on replacements which disrupted their momentum as well as not going for the try bonus.

Bath just like last season were only allowed in the game when Saracens reduced their intensity to a level that Bath could handle. For 60 minutes Sarries were far too strong for Bath.

I said he was in good club form when he was last chosen for England, unfortunately he didn't impress and given that was after a long while of underpeformance at international level others have been given the chance over him. Like I said I'm sure he'll get another chance and it's up to him to take it.

[Cowshot]

The main things obviously at stake are GS and TC chances. Assuming a close fought tight game which is what I expect, I think that's it. Neither side would be crushed going into the World Cup because by the time we could meet in the WC form in the WC would mean much more than a close game 6 months ago.

Mind you, I have Ireland as slight favourites so perhaps I'm just getting my mental damage limitations in now. I think Schmit has settled in very quickly and got the squad singing his tunes well. Ireland seem a more settled and experienced side to me and there's a lot we still don't know about this England team. It's been a while since we've had a side with exciting flair and pace go to face an Ireland side currently known more for its dogged determination and grim defence than dash and dazzle!

[Geordie]

No 7 & 1/2 seriously I don't understand..... Ashton has in the last season and half been one of the best wingers in Europe....  he's in good form... you only need to watch him to see that...

Was on short list for European player of the year last season and on the long list this time round

As I said before he's been influential against sides like Bath,Ulster,Clermont and Munster.

Gunsgerms you weren't licking your lips when Goode was at FB last time, England beat Ireland in Ireland.....Goode managed to hold onto everything you Irish threw at him.


sickofwendy not sure you watched the game - Goode ran the show with two assists and immaculate kicking - Roko got a consolation try when Saracens took the foot off the gas.

Sarries put on replacements which disrupted their momentum as well as not going for the try bonus.

Bath just like last season were only allowed in the game when Saracens reduced their intensity to a level that Bath could handle. For 60 minutes Sarries were far too strong for Bath.

He has been in very good club form Beshocked...but for what ever reason - tactics, instructions etc that has not translated into the same form for country.

[GunsGerms]

The main things obviously at stake are GS and TC chances. Assuming a close fought tight game which is what I expect, I think that's it. Neither side would be crushed going into the World Cup because by the time we could meet in the WC form in the WC would mean much more than a close game 6 months ago.

Mind you, I have Ireland as slight favourites so perhaps I'm just getting my mental damage limitations in now. I think Schmit has settled in very quickly and got the squad singing his tunes well. Ireland seem a more settled and experienced side to me and there's a lot we still don't know about this England team. It's been a while since we've had a side with exciting flair and pace go to face an Ireland side currently known more for its dogged determination and grim defence than dash and dazzle!

Ireland also play England in a WC warm up match so both teams will have time to get revenge prior to the WC too.

[SecretFly]

The main things obviously at stake are GS and TC chances. Assuming a close fought tight game which is what I expect, I think that's it. Neither side would be crushed going into the World Cup because by the time we could meet in the WC form in the WC would mean much more than a close game 6 months ago.

Mind you, I have Ireland as slight favourites so perhaps I'm just getting my mental damage limitations in now. I think Schmit has settled in very quickly and got the squad singing his tunes well. Ireland seem a more settled and experienced side to me and there's a lot we still don't know about this England team. It's been a while since we've had a side with exciting flair and pace go to face an Ireland side currently known more for its dogged determination and grim defence than dash and dazzle!

There's an awful lot we don't know about this Ireland side either.  Namely, if the dogged and grim stuff doesn't work, have they a "dash and dazzle" Plan B lying in the long grass and waiting?  
We just don't know - but England seems to be a genuine tester game for unwrapping such a plan if England's dash and dazzle puts us under extreme pressure.

Ireland have not had the real need to show anything other than what they've shown to date.  And yes, it's perhaps dangerous and lazy self-confidence that keeps them ticking over in the grim and dogged stuff.  But in truth, England have given us a more full demonstration of their machine and its gears than Ireland have to date.

[Cowshot]

Ireland also play England in a WC warm up match so both teams will have time to get revenge prior to the WC too.

Hmm. Hope neither side is looking for revenge in a warm up game. I don't view them as an unmixed blessing.

There's an awful lot we don't know about this Ireland side either.  Namely, if the dogged and grim stuff doesn't work, have they a "dash and dazzle" Plan B lying in the long grass and waiting?  
We just don't know - but England seems to be a genuine tester game for unwrapping such a plan if England's dash and dazzle puts us under extreme pressure.

Ireland have not had the real need to show anything other than what they've shown to date.  And yes, it's perhaps dangerous and lazy self-confidence that keeps them ticking over in the grim and dogged stuff.  But in truth, England have given us a more full demonstration of their machine and its gears than Ireland have to date.

Hard to believe Ireland don't have Plan B or dash and dazzle or boot bollock and boot permanently lurking in the long grass. Now granted it sometimes gets lost there for a time, but when it finds its way onto the pitch it's usually pretty good. So far we've played against Gatlandball and Italy and shown we can cope with them (albeit the Gatlandball was a bit deflated and not quite up to its usual standard) No real mysteries there - everyone knows HOW to play against Gatlandball, it's just doing it can be the problem. Italy are hard to break down. We scored more and Italy scored more than they did against you. We let in 3 tries. How many did your lads let in?

Ireland have shown themselves to be a pretty immovable object; I don't yet think England have shown themselves to be an irresistible force...

[Cowshot]

I mean, what do we have to do...?

[SecretFly]

I mean, what do we have to do...?

He's just been asked a very intricate question by a journalist called Sin É about robotic instrumentation on the vocal cord trans-relay remote sensor switch in his forehead.

Paulie had just answered "Does Not Compute" when his pic was taken.





PS.You won't know what the hell I'm talking about, Cowshot, but the Irish lads will

[Cowshot]

I think it explains why he will always play for Ireland - he's been morphed into RoboConnell.

[Steffan]

This is one of those games where I find it a shame that both sides can't lose. I guess I hope Ireland win though as it will make the rest of the BBC coverage bearable

[SecretFly]

I'd say a draw is a fair whack at a non win for both sides, Steffan.

But it seems that's not a dagger that goes in deep enough, huh?

[Steffan]

I'd say a draw is a fair whack at a non win for both sides, Steffan.

But it seems that's not a dagger that goes in deep enough, huh?

As long as England or Ireland don't win the championship it will be good. Imagine BBC coverage if England won the Grandslam in a world cup year...

[lostinwales]

This is one of those games where I find it a shame that both sides can't lose. I guess I hope Ireland win though as it will make the rest of the BBC coverage bearable

The problem is you see this and you think to yourself there is only one nation that this poster could come from

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