Ireland v England - Match Thread

[GunsGerms]

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:



Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

[beshocked]

Manu Tuilagi has consistently been a dangerous strike runner for England but I have generally thought that his service to the wingers has been very poor.

Would be interesting to see how often the wingers get the ball with Joseph at 13 or Burrell at 13 compared to Manu.

I have criticised Twelvetrees a lot but he seemed to be very involved in the England attacks on the weekend. Seems to have had real hunger when he's been playing.

[BamBam]

Ah, its Steffan popping over with some more reasonable opinions.

You must remember guys, that this is the same guy who has spent most of the afternoon on the football forum using some racist Chelsea fans as a stick to beat the entire nation of England with

[Steffan]

Ah, its Steffan popping over with some more reasonable opinions

Glad you liked them

[GunsGerms]

Some notes;

I hope Haskell plays. He is good at plodding around in the loose but I feel he could be targeted for the choke tackle. Secondly I think he concedes silly penalties and his defence is poor. He was responsible for two leaked tries in this year’s championship.

I wonder will England target Sexton? Or should I ponder how they will target Sexton as it is a given that they will go after him isn’t it?

[BamBam]

Some notes;

I hope Haskell plays. He is good at plodding around in the loose but I feel he could be targeted for the choke tackle. Secondly I think he concedes silly penalties and his defence is poor. He was responsible for two leaked tries in this year’s championship.

I wonder will England target Sexton? Or should I ponder how they will target Sexton as it is a given that they will go after him isn’t it?

GG - is that because you think Haskell carries with his body way too upright? He's immensely strong, so wouldn't strike me as the most typical target, he's been one of the best at choke tackling for us along with Vunipola

I don't think England tend to go after specific players too much at the moment, even last year against you chaps, the defence pretty much played its normal style. Lawes might look to put a big hit in on him if he plays and gets a chance, but other than that I wouldn't expect much "targeting" in the traditional sense

[GunsGerms]

Some notes;

I hope Haskell plays. He is good at plodding around in the loose but I feel he could be targeted for the choke tackle. Secondly I think he concedes silly penalties and his defence is poor. He was responsible for two leaked tries in this year’s championship.

I wonder will England target Sexton? Or should I ponder how they will target Sexton as it is a given that they will go after him isn’t it?

GG - is that because you think Haskell carries with his body way too upright? He's immensely strong, so wouldn't strike me as the most typical target, he's been one of the best at choke tackling for us along with Vunipola

I don't think England tend to go after specific players too much at the moment, even last year against you chaps, the defence pretty much played its normal style. Lawes might look to put a big hit in on him if he plays and gets a chance, but other than that I wouldn't expect much "targeting" in the traditional sense

Yes. He is very strong but so is Sexton and he choked Bastereau in his first tackle on him. I can see him trying the same with Haskell.

Also I forgot to add I think England's front row may give Ireland a really hard time. Cole being back worries me. Ireland has a decent front row but Englands is the best in the 6N IMO.

[captain carrantuohil]

I wouldn't be targeting Sexton specifically if I were England, not least because they've done a reasonable job of keeping him quiet over the past couple of years without making special plans for him. In any case, Jonny has enough experience and is a good enough player to have an idea of how to deal with most of what will come his way.

Specific plans are often aimed at inexperienced players or ones with a perceived weakness. There's plenty of midfield inexperience on either side and I would expect both centre pairings to be tested a fair bit. If Brown doesn't play and May is dispensed with, that may also be true of England's back three. With Sexton, I'm pretty sure the idea will be not to give him anything easy to kick from the tee and as little time as possible to do similar damage from hand. Another big test for Robshaw in particular, you would think.

[beshocked]

I wonder if the BBC are going to go with their typical Sexton love in when coverage starts.

Watching the coverage for the Ireland-France - it was Sexton,Sexton,Sexton!

I agree captain carrot - shouldn't be targetting Sexton - England need to focus on their own game.

Just need to focus on the basics, keep the error count low and make sure they apply enough pressure and players at the breakdown.

Ireland like England are one of the most complete sides in the competition - not many weaknesses to exploit. Need to be patient and clinical.

Oh and Ireland shouldn't target Goode if he starts - you might see him as a weakness but a player who has something to prove can be dangerous.

[SecretFly]

Watching the coverage for the Ireland-France - it was Sexton,Sexton,Sexton!

You gotta have yer media mascots. Now, clear your throat and repeat after me: Joseph, Joseph, Joseph!

[Steffan]

Ireland are definitely BBCs second favourite team after England

[SecretFly]

Is that an offence in British law? Will Ireland be dragged into the courts in London to defend it's cuddliness and loveability???

[Pot Hale]

This is one of those games where I find it a shame that both sides can't lose. I guess I hope Ireland win though as it will make the rest of the BBC coverage bearable

The problem is you see this and you think to yourself there is only one nation that this poster could come from

Italy? New Zealand?

[yappysnap]

Hask and Vunipola could both struggle against the Irish choke tackles, both go in to contact very upright and both seem to start slowly and get more aggressive as the game goes on. The opposite of the Irish who start like mad dogs and slowly go limp.

[thomh]

Hask and Vunipola could both struggle against the Irish choke tackles, both go in to contact very upright and both seem to start slowly and get more aggressive as the game goes on. The opposite of the Irish who start like mad dogs and slowly go limp.

I would argue the opposite. Vunipola will be more than happy for defenders to go high on him. He ran riot against Munster when they did so. Wales mostly nullified him by tackling him low and early.

[yappysnap]

Hask and Vunipola could both struggle against the Irish choke tackles, both go in to contact very upright and both seem to start slowly and get more aggressive as the game goes on. The opposite of the Irish who start like mad dogs and slowly go limp.

I would argue the opposite. Vunipola will be more than happy for defenders to go high on him. He ran riot against Munster when they did so. Wales mostly nullified him by tackling him low and early.

True didn't Wales do the same a couple of seasons back, where Ireland kept trying to tackle them high and Roberts and co kept busting through their tackles.

[FecklessRogue]

I wouldn't be targeting Sexton specifically if I were England, not least because they've done a reasonable job of keeping him quiet over the past couple of years without making special plans for him.

Last year they absolutely battered him until he probably didn't know what sport he was even playing anymore. He kicked out on the full, momentum swung the other way and England got the winning try.

They will do the same again. If they are successful, I hope Schmidt replaces Sexton this time.

[thomh]

Hask and Vunipola could both struggle against the Irish choke tackles, both go in to contact very upright and both seem to start slowly and get more aggressive as the game goes on. The opposite of the Irish who start like mad dogs and slowly go limp.

I would argue the opposite. Vunipola will be more than happy for defenders to go high on him. He ran riot against Munster when they did so. Wales mostly nullified him by tackling him low and early.

True didn't Wales do the same a couple of seasons back, where Ireland kept trying to tackle them high and Roberts and co kept busting through their tackles.

Can't recall but doesn't seem unlikely.

[SecretFly]

Hask and Vunipola could both struggle against the Irish choke tackles, both go in to contact very upright and both seem to start slowly and get more aggressive as the game goes on. The opposite of the Irish who start like mad dogs and slowly go limp.

I would argue the opposite. Vunipola will be more than happy for defenders to go high on him. He ran riot against Munster when they did so. Wales mostly nullified him by tackling him low and early.

True didn't Wales do the same a couple of seasons back, where Ireland kept trying to tackle them high and Roberts and co kept busting through their tackles.

Oh yeah...that was before we modified the computer program and showed you how to beat them too

[profitius]

Forget Joseph and Watson. Mike Brown is the key England back. He is their main creative threat and one of the best fullbacks in the world IMO. Him missing would be a blow to England.


Ireland can only improve. I'd love to see an Ireland backrow of SOB, Henderson and POM for this match.

Marty Moore done well at tighthead when he came on and was putting the French scrum under "moore presure" the longer the match went on. So I would say he is another in the mix to start.

[toml]

Forget Joseph and Watson. Mike Brown is the key England back. He is their main creative threat and one of the best fullbacks in the world IMO. Him missing would be a blow to England.


Ireland can only improve. I'd love to see an Ireland backrow of SOB, Henderson and POM for this match.

Marty Moore done well at tighthead when he came on and was putting the French scrum under "moore presure" the longer the match went on. So I would say he is another in the mix to start.

Yeah that would be my choice of backrow. It hasn't been mentioned much but as far as i'm aware Henderson grew up playing 8 and he looks to have a great skillet for it. He was likely pushed to lock due to his height and then 6 as it is a good entry position for a young player in a senior side.
Surely his ball carrying, pace and rucking would go well at 8

[robbo277]

As boring as it sounds, I think this game will largely be won between numbers 1 and 10. If we see anything from the backs it will likely be because those inside them have managed to get them on the front foot.

England's scrum has been strong but the line out has wobbled. If we can get both those on the money and play with the intensity around the breakdown and on defence as we did in the second half against Wales, then we should go okay.

I think Ireland will look to try to use the choke tackle to affect turnovers and Sexton's boot to get them in a position to play from. You feel the back row and the back three will be important to counter this strategy.

[Nachos Jones]

Forget Joseph and Watson. Mike Brown is the key England back. He is their main creative threat and one of the best fullbacks in the world IMO. Him missing would be a blow to England.


Ireland can only improve. I'd love to see an Ireland backrow of SOB, Henderson and POM for this match.

Marty Moore done well at tighthead when he came on and was putting the French scrum under "moore presure" the longer the match went on. So I would say he is another in the mix to start.

That's it for me as well, good balanced backline with the ability to be very mobile. This is what will be needed against England and with TOD on the bench coming in as an impact sub, I think that Ireland may be ok.

Henshaw and Payne (although I would like to see Payne at 15 and maybe Earls at 13) have been very solid in defence so far and I feel will keep Burrell and Joseph honest.

If it is going to be a very forward orientated match (and I think it will be) then the back 3 will be the difference in this match. Brown, if he starts, will be a huge danger man for Ireland. Sadly, I feel that Kearney is out of form at fullback for Ireland and I would like to see him rested. If he is rested then I would like to see Zebo (Payne will stay at 13 in Schmidt's plan I feel) go to 15 and Earls come in on the wing. This will be a very kicking orientated match so its important that you have good returners of the kicks.

[GunsGerms]

Ireland are definitely BBCs second favourite team after England

Proper order.

[beshocked]

secretfly you're right - Joseph bandwagon is definitely rolling.


Personally I think the most important player for England is actually Chris Robshaw. He's pretty much our only 7 option. An injury to him would leave us clutching at straws for a 7 -

Steffon Armitage would have to be recalled I guess even though I would be hugely reluctant to do so.

Haskell
Armitage
Vunipola

Not bad on paper.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

secretfly you're right - Joseph bandwagon is definitely rolling.


Personally I think the most important player for England is actually Chris Robshaw. He's pretty much our only 7 option. An injury to him would leave us clutching at straws for a 7 -

Steffon Armitage would have to be recalled I guess even though I would be hugely reluctant to do so.

Haskell
Armitage
Vunipola

Not bad on paper.

Wood should be fit, he would I think go to 6 and Haskell 7 although they are interchangable these days

[yappysnap]

Forget Joseph and Watson. Mike Brown is the key England back. He is their main creative threat and one of the best fullbacks in the world IMO. Him missing would be a blow to England.

Hhmmmm he hasn't quite been there this season, a shocking club campaign probably hadn't helped.

I'd say for the first time in forever you can't just focus on one English back as now every single one had the potential to cause you damage.

For me Ford's still the most important player behind the pack, he won't get a comfy ride and will need to deal with a lot of pressure to be able to get us going forward.

Against Italy Ford started out sitting very deep and kicking everything, which didn't work at all and gave the Italians a lot of ball to run back which they did well. It was only after the long break for Mike Brown that we changed tactics and actually played a bit.

If we start with that kicking g game again I think Ireland will have a field day.

[SecretFly]

Yes, Robshaw is becoming the totem pole for England. Not saying he hasn't already been central. But now he's assuming that mantle that keeps his troops attention going because they are willing to be led by his tireless example.

I'd say Robshaw and Brown are the two primary warriors in England's current squad.

[Nachos Jones]

I will stick my hands up and say that I was one of those that really never rated Robshaw in the beginning of his career but when reading his stats after the match's found it amazing at just how much work he had gotten through and how effective he appeared to be on paper.

Even now I watch him and think, ok he has had a reasonable game and then read his stats and continue to be in amazement.

The guy is a great player and excellent leader, his and Bombers partnership simply works.

[beshocked]

yappysnap it's all about balance. You have to kick a bit because territory is important obviously. Can't run everything.

Secretfly you say that but to be honest Brown wasn't really missed vs Italy when he was injured. Not saying he's a bad player - far from it but it's not as if the whole backline fell apart without him.

Well past it perhaps but I am not sure I would like that backrow till I saw it in action.

[Sin é]

This will give you all a laugh! A Murray Kinsella analysis of Ireland presented by the Peoples' Republic of Cork!

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5400145&postcount=3662

[lostinwales]

Brown not being missed vs Italy may well be as much down to Italy as to how we reorganized, but it may well be that that reorganization is in part responsible for the success of the Italian attack. (Probably more down to the nature of the game/lack of 'defensive intensity' or whatever).

I would think most England fans would be happier with Brown at 15 vs Ireland than any of the other options.

I suspect that with the delay in him being able to start the return to play protocols that he wont be there for Ireland.

[BamBam]

Has there been a delay? Isn't it 6 days before he is due to start again anyway or have I just made that up

[lostinwales]

Has there been a delay? Isn't it 6 days before he is due to start again anyway or have I just made that up

The last thing I saw (yesterday) was that he was still showing some symptoms and had not been able to start the graduated return to play protocols. Given that these last, what, 6 days or so there is every reason to believe that he might just about be fit and available on the day of the match or thereabouts but will not have been able to take a full part in training. Given how we seem to operate these days that will mean he will miss out this time.

If he is not right then he shouldn't play.

[Poorfour]

I will stick my hands up and say that I was one of those that really never rated Robshaw in the beginning of his career but when reading his stats after the match's found it amazing at just how much work he had gotten through and how effective he appeared to be on paper.

Even now I watch him and think, ok he has had a reasonable game and then read his stats and continue to be in amazement.

The guy is a great player and excellent leader, his and Bombers partnership simply works.

Lancaster is a lucky general in that regard - if Wood hadn't been injured in his first 6N, he may never have picked Robshaw at all. The last coach to have similar luck was Woodward, when Dallaglio got stung by the papers and he had to choose a new captain...

Conor O'Shea has said on several occasions that he watches replays of Quins matches in amazement at just how much work Robshaw gets through... but the fans have known it for a very long time. When a crucial tackle or turnover gets made, the surprise is when it's not him doing it.

Brown is still waiting to start the return to play protocol - needs to be symptom free for 24 hours and wasn't at the start of yesterday. I think there is still time for him to make the squad but it's getting close to the deadline. If he's not been announced as back in training by the weekend, I'd not expect him to play.

In terms of his form this season, he took a bad hit (in the air) against Exeter early in the season and struggled for form after that. Was looking close to his best during the Leinster RCC games and in the run up to the 6N, though, so it will be a shame if he's out.

[BamBam]

Has there been a delay? Isn't it 6 days before he is due to start again anyway or have I just made that up

The last thing I saw (yesterday) was that he was still showing some symptoms and had not been able to start the graduated return to play protocols. Given that these last, what, 6 days or so there is every reason to believe that he might just about be fit and available on the day of the match or thereabouts but will not have been able to take a full part in training. Given how we seem to operate these days that will mean he will miss out this time.

If he is not right then he shouldn't play.

Agreed he shouldn't play if he's not right.

I thought he was due to sit out completely for 6 days, then gradually return to training over the next week with a view to full participation in the few days beforehand

[Rory_Gallagher]

Forget Joseph and Watson. Mike Brown is the key England back. He is their main creative threat and one of the best fullbacks in the world IMO. Him missing would be a blow to England.


Ireland can only improve. I'd love to see an Ireland backrow of SOB, Henderson and POM for this match.

Marty Moore done well at tighthead when he came on and was putting the French scrum under "moore presure" the longer the match went on. So I would say he is another in the mix to start.

Yeah that would be my choice of backrow. It hasn't been mentioned much but as far as i'm aware Henderson grew up playing 8 and he looks to have a great skillet for it. He was likely pushed to lock due to his height and then 6 as it is a good entry position for a young player in a senior side.
Surely his ball carrying, pace and rucking would go well at 8

I don't know why people keep saying this, Hendy played 8 a lot at school up to medallion level but in senior rugby he made the switch to second row apart from the year BRA got to the schools cup final, and especially after that for the U20s he did not play at number 8 in any game I recall. Mike McComish played at out-half for school, but you wouldn't play him there now.

[nathan]

Manu Tuilagi has consistently been a dangerous strike runner for England but I have generally thought that his service to the wingers has been very poor.

Would be interesting to see how often the wingers get the ball with Joseph at 13 or Burrell at 13 compared to Manu.

I have criticised Twelvetrees a lot but he seemed to be very involved in the England attacks on the weekend. Seems to have had real hunger when he's been playing.

I think who plays at 10 has something to do with it as well.

[doctor_grey]

Has there been a delay? Isn't it 6 days before he is due to start again anyway or have I just made that up

The last thing I saw (yesterday) was that he was still showing some symptoms and had not been able to start the graduated return to play protocols. Given that these last, what, 6 days or so there is every reason to believe that he might just about be fit and available on the day of the match or thereabouts but will not have been able to take a full part in training. Given how we seem to operate these days that will mean he will miss out this time.

If he is not right then he shouldn't play.

Agreed he shouldn't play if he's not right.

I thought he was due to sit out completely for 6 days, then gradually return to training over the next week with a view to full participation in the few days beforehand

Brown can't start the graduated return to play protocols until he is medically assessed and evaluated as fit to start those protocols. Not sure how that is progressing. However, I would not want him to play against Ireland even if he passes the protocols. He would not have practiced for two weeks, not what I think we want prior to a huge match like this. I believe this match will be won/lost by small margins, and a player who has not practiced for two weeks immediately prior will likely not have the edge or physicality. England will be OK with Andy Goode back there (and maybe with Alex Goode).

[Nachos Jones]

Manu Tuilagi has consistently been a dangerous strike runner for England but I have generally thought that his service to the wingers has been very poor.

Would be interesting to see how often the wingers get the ball with Joseph at 13 or Burrell at 13 compared to Manu.

I have criticised Twelvetrees a lot but he seemed to be very involved in the England attacks on the weekend. Seems to have had real hunger when he's been playing.

I think who plays at 10 has something to do with it as well.

Very much agree with this, it helps the whole England backline to have a more endeavouring 10 than Farrell.

Manu still has a very big job to get back in the team though as JJ and Burrell have looked a very good pairing with an excellent understanding.

[geoff999rugby]

Lets face it Farrell 10, Barritt 12, Tuilagi 13 and the wingers might as well join knitting classes for all the ball they will see

Ford, ANOther, Joseph totally changes the dynamic

[SecretFly]

yappysnap it's all about balance. You have to kick a bit because territory is important obviously. Can't run everything.

Secretfly you say that but to be honest Brown wasn't really missed vs Italy when he was injured. Not saying he's a bad player - far from it but it's not as if the whole backline fell apart without him.

Well past it perhaps but I am not sure I would like that backrow till I saw it in action.

Italy is Italy, shocked. Italy is Italy.

[doctor_grey]

Lets face it Farrell 10, Barritt 12, Tuilagi 13  and the wingers might as well join knitting classes for all the ball they will see

Ford, ANOther, Joseph totally changes the dynamic

I agree signs are positive, but not ready to anoint Georgie as the second coming, or even as a big time International.  I think he does provide energy which appears lacking when Farrell is in the pivot.  England has seemed to be going forwards whether Ford touched the ball or not.  So, it appears to me the team is growing together  rather than riding the number 10.  And, yes, I know he is young and developing, so please don't take this as criticism of Georgie. It is just that I am not sure about him yet.

Now, I am not saying Georgie ain't the best choice for England, because he appears to be at the moment.  Just saying I am not as impressed and some people seem to be.  And frankly, I don't care who is fly half as long as England win their next three matches, win their RWC pool matches, and then win their next three matches.  Simples.

[beshocked]

doctor grey can't argue with that.

Still can't understand how the pundits could give Ford man of the match against Wales. I would have given him 7/10, there were others like Watson,Robshaw and Haskell who I thought had better games.

secretfly Italy have suffered because they've taken on the two strongest sides first - we'll see what they do against the others. I think Italy would fancy their chances against Scotland in particular at the moment.

[TightHEAD]

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions and loyal servant to the TRUE emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next. oh and Sam Burgess should be playing for England.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31547115

Nah you're alright Maximus, not yet.

[Barney McGrew did it]

He's nothing to crow about (yet)

[LondonTiger]

Still can't understand how the pundits could give Ford man of the match against Wales. I would have given him 7/10, there were others like Watson,Robshaw and Haskell who I thought had better games.

Same Pundits that gave Farrell MotM and marks like 9/10 in his early matches at 10. When I stated that they were no more than 7/10 marks you told me to take his age into account and got upset with me when I said it was Love sacks.

Now again I agree, Georgy-boy was not MotM, though unlike Haskell he did not concede a try with a dreadfull missed tackle, but pundits often give it to the goal kicker. Usually because rather than watch the game they are too busy trying to think up their next "clever" observation.

[BamBam]

doctor grey can't argue with that.

Still can't understand how the pundits could give Ford man of the match against Wales. I would have given him 7/10, there were others like Watson,Robshaw and Haskell who I thought had better games.

secretfly Italy have suffered because they've taken on the two strongest sides first - we'll see what they do against the others. I think Italy would fancy their chances against Scotland in particular at the moment.

Scotland are no mugs, if they had Russell playing I'd be putting money on a 20 point win for them against Italy, as it is I reckon a 10 pointer will have to do

[rodders]

Even now I watch him and think, ok he has had a reasonable game and then read his stats and continue to be in amazement.

Don't trust the stats - its all part of the RFU anti-armitage conspiracy.

It's the same in Ireland with Munster goldenboy, and Ireland captain in waiting Pete O'Mahoney....does feic all for 80min then the stats will say they carried for 600metres and made 50 turn overs.

[GunsGerms]

Shussssssh. You arent allowed criticise Munster players.

[SecretFly]

Pete is a Dark-Arts Sith Lord. You don't actually see most of his work because it's usually illegal and well covered up in the mauls. Ear biting, beard pulling, eye gouging etc. All in the very best possible taste of course.

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