Britain vs USA- Part 2 All time greats

First topic message reminder :

Basically the same concept but this time i'm doing at a all time scale. Once again post your predictions underneath (Base your predictions on 12 round fights) and have your say if Britain are leading the way in the all time ranks or vice-versa.

Flyweight- Jimmy Wilde vs Fidel LaBarba- Wilde late KO 1-0

Bantamweight- Dick Corbett vs Kid Williams- Williams close UD 1-1

Featherweight- Jim Driscoll vs Willie Pep- Pep wide UD 1-2

Super Featherweight- Jim McDonnell vs Floyd Mayweather- Mayweather schools him 1-3

Lightweight- Ken Buchanan vs Tony Canzoneri- Canzoneri UD 1-4

Light-Welterweight- Ricky Hatton vs Aaron Pryor- Pryor late KO 1-5

Welterweight- Ted Lewis vs Henry Armstrong - Lewis close UD 2-5

Light-Middleweight- Maurice Hope vs Thomas Hearns- Hearns mid KO 2-6

Middleweight- Randy Turpin vs Sugar Ray Robinson- No brainer really Robinson by either wide UD or late KO 2-7

Super-Middleweight- Joe Calzaghe vs RJJ- RJJ UD 2-8

Light-Heavyweight- John Conteh vs Archie Moore- Moore late KO 2-9

Cruiserweight- David Haye vs Evander Holyfield- Holyfield UD 2-10

Heavyweight Lennox Lewis vs Muhammad Ali- Ali mid KO 2-11

Clearly the Americans when it comes weight by weight have the better fighters than us. But the thing i've picked up on is that now it's alot closer backing up my theory that American fighters are on the downfall.

Do you agree with my predictions?, Are the Americans on a major downfall? And Can you see the Brits overtaking the Americans in a few years time?

azania wrote:

KO-KING wrote: Ali mid KO Against lewis ???????

Ali beats Lewis 115-113 close decision no chance of Stopping Lewis

I wouldn't have it so close. Ali would lose a few rounds only because he takes a breather. I'd have it 117-112 Ali. No clance Lewis winning this fight in a million years.

Underrating lewis too much.

Hand Speed- Ali,
Footwork - Ali, not by much
Power - Lewis
Strength - Lewis
Finishing of an opponent - Equal
Chin - Ali, lewis had an underrated chin(it wasn't glass, but not great either)
Height - Lewis by 2 inches
Reach - Lewis by 2 inches
Jab - Ali = Faster, Lewis = More power, Equal
Right Hand - Lewis, although Ali = Faster, Lewis = More power
Stamina - same
Dirty Boxing - Both used to hold opponents head - Equal
Reflexes - Ali

Lewis win 3/10 for me H2H

I dont think I'm under-estimating Lewis. But to give Lewis near equal footwrok to Ali is pusing things somewhat. Lewis had very poor footwrok imo. He was ungainly and combersome. Lewis' jab was also very poor considering his reach and height. He pawed and pushed it out. It lacked snap.

Ali fought more boxers with more power that him. The results were always the same. Ali's footspeed and handspeed wins a clear and decisive UD. 99/100 Ali wins.

Might be the best you've seen Southpaw but Pacquiao isn't one of the best i've seen, his style would play right into Arguellos hands who would counter punch him and then counter punch him some more. Mayweather would probably get the better of him head to head but for me Arguello has a better record than he does.
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Pacquiao would of stopped him imo. If Pacquiao was so one dimensional, easy to counter, why didn't an excellent box-puncher like Cotto stop him? he troubled Pacquiao early, Manny turned up the gears and stopped him. Pacquiao, as most US observers, reporters will agree is a genuine ATG no matter what else happens, the guy's a freak of nature, deal with it.

Where have I said Pacquiao isn't an all time great? Simple fact of the matter is that both Pryor and Arguello are a step above anything he's ever faced whereas Cotto is a good boxer but not a great one.

Steven_89 wrote:Might be the best you've seen Southpaw but Pacquiao isn't one of the best i've seen, his style would play right into Arguellos hands who would counter punch him and then counter punch him some more. Mayweather would probably get the better of him head to head but for me Arguello has a better record than he does.
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Pacquiao would of stopped him imo. If Pacquiao was so one dimensional, easy to counter, why didn't an excellent box-puncher like Cotto stop him? he troubled Pacquiao early, Manny turned up the gears and stopped him. Pacquiao, as most US observers, reporters will agree is a genuine ATG no matter what else happens, the guy's a freak of nature, deal with it.

Simply put, Cotto isn't in the same league as Arguello. In fact, he's not on the same planet as Arguello. Better still, he's not in the same stratosphere as Arguello. Cotto's style was made for a quick in and out fighter like Pacquiao; Cotto is far from chinny, but once he's been clipped heavily he has no idea how to adapt and turn the tide. He was game against Pacquiao, but played in to his hands by trying to engage him constantly from round four onwards.

Arguello was as clever a fighter as there was and I don't think the Cotto fight is much of a measuring stick to consider when trying to decide how Pacquiao would do against him. Cotto is a good fighter, but if he ever makes the Hall of Fame it's simply because the bar is set far, far too low.

88Chris05 wrote:

Steven_89 wrote:Might be the best you've seen Southpaw but Pacquiao isn't one of the best i've seen, his style would play right into Arguellos hands who would counter punch him and then counter punch him some more. Mayweather would probably get the better of him head to head but for me Arguello has a better record than he does.
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Pacquiao would of stopped him imo. If Pacquiao was so one dimensional, easy to counter, why didn't an excellent box-puncher like Cotto stop him? he troubled Pacquiao early, Manny turned up the gears and stopped him. Pacquiao, as most US observers, reporters will agree is a genuine ATG no matter what else happens, the guy's a freak of nature, deal with it.

Simply put, Cotto isn't in the same league as Arguello. In fact, he's not on the same planet as Arguello. Better still, he's not in the same stratosphere as Arguello. Cotto's style was made for a quick in and out fighter like Pacquiao; Cotto is far from chinny, but once he's been clipped heavily he has no idea how to adapt and turn the tide. He was game against Pacquiao, but played in to his hands by trying to engage him constantly from round four onwards.

Arguello was as clever a fighter as there was and I don't think the Cotto fight is much of a measuring stick to consider when trying to decide how Pacquiao would do against him. Cotto is a good fighter, but if he ever makes the Hall of Fame it's simply because the bar is set far, far too low.

Excellent summary and bang on the money, in my opinion.

Simply put, Cotto isn't in the same league as Arguello. In fact, he's not on the same planet as Arguello. Better still, he's not in the same stratosphere as Arguello. Cotto's style was made for a quick in and out fighter like Pacquiao; Cotto is far from chinny, but once he's been clipped heavily he has no idea how to adapt and turn the tide. He was game against Pacquiao, but played in to his hands by trying to engage him constantly from round four onwards.

Arguello was as clever a fighter as there was and I don't think the Cotto fight is much of a measuring stick to consider when trying to decide how Pacquiao would do against him. Cotto is a good fighter, but if he ever makes the Hall of Fame it's simply because the bar is set far, far too low.
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If Pryor found Arguello, who wasn't nearly as fast as Pacquiao or as good, Pacquiao would, and not with the help of a bottle of water. I rate Cotto as an ATG

Malignaggi - Cotto schooled him, went on to win world title
Quintana - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title
Judah - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title
Torres - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title
Ndou - Cotto outboxed him, went on to win world title
Mosley - Cotto outboxed him, went on to win world title
Maussa - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title

Quality boxer, devestating body puncher, has schooled Mosley 4 years ago, destroyed Judah, Quintana who went on to batter Williams, got off the floor to KO a genuine banger in Torres, then bounced back from 2 devesating defeats to batter a decent champ in Foreman.

I usually respect opinions, not this one though, a 4 time, 3 weight world champ will make the grade because the bar is set far, far too low? gimme a break thats nonsense. Cotto is a brilliant fighter, who would of won world titles in any era imo.

Where have I said Pacquiao isn't an all time great? Simple fact of the matter is that both Pryor and Arguello are a step above anything he's ever faced whereas Cotto is a good boxer but not a great one.
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I dont think Arguello would of beat Marquez, and i think Marquez is overrated.

I dont think Pryor or Arguello are above Cotto or a prime Mosley either. I dont get caught up in all this old era bull, fighters now are great too. Ie Cotto, Pacquiao, i think Pacquiao would absolutely destroy Aaron Pryor within 8 rounds. I just dont think the way he jumped on people but ran in like a bull would of worked, i can only see one thing them unbelievably fast and easily fastest filipino fists landing flush on his tash and knocking him SPARK out. Arguello, he goes quicker imo.

He may have won a title at light heavyweight in an other eras but he was lucky to be around at a time when the Welterweight division was in relative decline, he wouldn't have lived with De La Hoya, Trinidad, Mosley or Quartey 10 years ago. That is a spectacular list of wins there Southpaw and not one of them was over a great fighter, to become an ATG you do need to beat someone of a high caliber which is something Cotto has yet to do. Pryor found Arguello because he was a relentless pressure fighter with an iron chin, he also carried a fair old wallop on him and for my money is a bigger puncher than Pacquiao. Cervantes and Arguello are better wins than anything Pacquiao or Cotto managed, that doesn't take into account Arguello who's record trumps the pair of them even more convincingly.

Didn't really batter Foreman either did he, retired due to a knee injury if my memory serves me right, just randomly using the word schooled or destroyed doesn't make your point any more credible.

Steven_89 wrote:Where have I said Pacquiao isn't an all time great? Simple fact of the matter is that both Pryor and Arguello are a step above anything he's ever faced whereas Cotto is a good boxer but not a great one.
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I dont think Arguello would of beat Marquez, and i think Marquez is overrated.

I dont think Pryor or Arguello are above Cotto or a prime Mosley either. I dont get caught up in all this old era bull, fighters now are great too. Ie Cotto, Pacquiao, i think Pacquiao would absolutely destroy Aaron Pryor within 8 rounds. I just dont think the way he jumped on people but ran in like a bull would of worked, i can only see one thing them unbelievably fast and easily fastest filipino fists landing flush on his tash and knocking him SPARK out. Arguello, he goes quicker imo.

You clearly know what your talking about so i'll steer clear of this one

He may have won a title at light heavyweight in an other eras but he was lucky to be around at a time when the Welterweight division was in relative decline, he wouldn't have lived with De La Hoya, Trinidad, Mosley or Quartey 10 years ago. That is a spectacular list of wins there Southpaw and not one of them was over a great fighter, to become an ATG you do need to beat someone of a high caliber which is something Cotto has yet to do. Pryor found Arguello because he was a relentless pressure fighter with an iron chin, he also carried a fair old wallop on him and for my money is a bigger puncher than Pacquiao. Cervantes and Arguello are better wins than anything Pacquiao or Cotto managed, that doesn't take into account Arguello who's record trumps the pair of them even more convincingly.

Didn't really batter Foreman either did he, retired due to a knee injury if my memory serves me right, just randomly using the word schooled or destroyed doesn't make your point any more credible.
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I raise you - Shane Mosley
genuine world class fighter, and was still a good fighter in 2007.

Pryor was iced off the unbelievable Bobby Joe Young, that pressure would of been his undoing against Pacquiao, look at Hatton, Pryor was no better defensively and just as brainless, he would of been knocked spark out of Pacquiao.

Cervantes, don't mention him in the same breath as Mosley, Pacquiao or Cotto please.

You clearly know what your talking about so i'll steer clear of this one
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No, because you cant find nothing to back up that my opinion isn't legit, not being funny but your talking about the best p4p fighter in the world and a genuine throwback as though he isn't great, he is, im sorry but he genuinely, 125% is, and that means dealing with Arguello and Pryor. Cotto's beat many quality fighters, he will be in the HOF, deal with it.

Good logic there Southpaw lets use fights that occurred after a fighter had returned from retirement makes a lot of sense. Problem you have is your opinion is based on these guys being as your prior post confirmed and i'm guessing you have no real clue about Arguello, Pryor or Cervantes so i'll leave you to it genius.

Steven_89 wrote:You clearly know what your talking about so i'll steer clear of this one
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No, because you cant find nothing to back up that my opinion isn't legit, not being funny but your talking about the best p4p fighter in the world and a genuine throwback as though he isn't great, he is, im sorry but he genuinely, 125% is, and that means dealing with Arguello and Pryor. Cotto's beat many quality fighters, he will be in the HOF, deal with it.

Cotto isn't great, which great fighter did he ever beat?
Pacquiao is great but he's not as great as Arguello who didn't have the benefit of having one of four titles to go for

Good logic there Southpaw lets use fights that occurred after a fighter had returned from retirement makes a lot of sense. Problem you have is your opinion is based on these guys being as your prior post confirmed and i'm guessing you have no real clue about Arguello, Pryor or Cervantes so i'll leave you to it genius.
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Hahaha
I've seen Arguello fights, Pryor fights and Pryor's fight with Cervantes, i don't make opinions on what i haven't seen, im not arguing with you no more. Pacquiao destroys the reckless Pryor in 8 rounds, gets to Arguello with a stoppage. Cotto would of iced Cervantes as well, at any weight.

Can I just interject ever so slightly in order to point out one thing:

that pressure would of been his undoing

That should be 'have'. Pet peeve, sorry.

Carry on.

I'll willingly let you run along

I think Pac and Cotto beat Arguello at LWW. We seen the best of Arguello at LW and SFW apart from his brave performance against Pryor Arguello wasn't great at LWW.

Pryor would destroy Cotto imo. Pryor and Pac would be a different story I think Pryor would win but I think we seen the best of Pac at SFW. Pryor had a solid chin and would have been able to take Pacs best not so sure Pac could takes Pryors though because he could seriously punch and Pac doesn't have a solid chin like Pryor. It would be a great fight though.

Steven_89 wrote:Cotto isn't great, which great fighter did he ever beat?
Pacquiao is great but he's not as great as Arguello who didn't have the benefit of having one of four titles to go for
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i've explained why i think Cotto, Pacquiao, Mosley, are all great and better, end of. Goodnight

And i've explained why I don't think Cotto is great or should I take your opinion as gospel?

Steven, the fact that Cotto's a four time, three weight champion means much less now than it would have done thirty odd years ago. Cotto's very good, but I do think he's a way to go before he's a dead very genuine HOF candidate.

Steven_89 wrote:I usually respect opinions, not this one though, a 4 time, 3 weight world champ will make the grade because the bar is set far, far too low? gimme a break thats nonsense.

Duke McKenzie and Iran Barkley won titles in three weights, too, but they sure as hell aren't truly 'great' fighters or Hall of Fame worthy. If you think Cotto is in the same bracket as Arguello then that's up to you, but as far as I'm concerned he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

Steven_89 wrote:Simply put, Cotto isn't in the same league as Arguello. In fact, he's not on the same planet as Arguello. Better still, he's not in the same stratosphere as Arguello. Cotto's style was made for a quick in and out fighter like Pacquiao; Cotto is far from chinny, but once he's been clipped heavily he has no idea how to adapt and turn the tide. He was game against Pacquiao, but played in to his hands by trying to engage him constantly from round four onwards.

Arguello was as clever a fighter as there was and I don't think the Cotto fight is much of a measuring stick to consider when trying to decide how Pacquiao would do against him. Cotto is a good fighter, but if he ever makes the Hall of Fame it's simply because the bar is set far, far too low.
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If Pryor found Arguello, who wasn't nearly as fast as Pacquiao or as good, Pacquiao would, and not with the help of a bottle of water. I rate Cotto as an ATG

Malignaggi - Cotto schooled him, went on to win world title
Quintana - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title
Judah - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title
Torres - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title
Ndou - Cotto outboxed him, went on to win world title
Mosley - Cotto outboxed him, went on to win world title
Maussa - Cotto destroyed him, went on to win world title

Quality boxer, devestating body puncher, has schooled Mosley 4 years ago, destroyed Judah, Quintana who went on to batter Williams, got off the floor to KO a genuine banger in Torres, then bounced back from 2 devesating defeats to batter a decent champ in Foreman.

I usually respect opinions, not this one though, a 4 time, 3 weight world champ will make the grade because the bar is set far, far too low? gimme a break thats nonsense. Cotto is a brilliant fighter, who would of won world titles in any era imo.

I don't have anything against Cotto but you massively overrate him. All those fighters listed are decent but nothing special, highlighting the fact they won titles post Cotto isn't that relevant bearing in mind how many world titles are available these days and fighters as average as David Diaz and Ricky Burns can call themselves world champions.

You say you don't rate Marquez but I'd suggest you look at how much better Marquez performed against pacquiao than Cotto, and use that when considering how Arguello would fare against pacquiao. Put simply, Marquez is a more intelligent fighter than Cotto and gave pacquiao hell over 2 fights (beat him 114-113 in the first IMO). Arguello was a more intelligent fighter than Marquez is, and was also quicker with a bigger punch. I'd definitely back him to beat pacquiao. Pacquiao v Pryor wouldve been a war, hard to call but if I had to gamble on it I'd back Pryor to edge manny out in a hard fought battle. Both Arguello and Pryor beat Cotto handily, he's a level below the other guys we're talking about here - vert very good, but not quite a great.

Is it a hobby to underrate Ricky Burns on here? He beat the best in his division, give him some due at least.

Burns takes more digs on here than Ali did in the Holmes fight.

prettyboykev wrote:Burns takes more digs on here than Ali did in the Holmes fight.

PB your Scottish and even you have a dig at him

Is he THAT badly under-rated? If he beats another highly-rated opponent or two and still receives criticism, then he'd be under-rated, but at the moment he has a somewhat unexpected win over Martinez and not much else to his name, on the world scene at least.

Liam_Main wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Burns takes more digs on here than Ali did in the Holmes fight.

PB your scotish and even you have a dig at him

I think you mean Scottish!

I have said he is lucky to be a World champion if his division wasn't so poor he wouldn't be. But I have also said he has worked very hard on his skills over the last couple of years and has got better after every fight up until Martinez. That's not really a dig. That's like saying he doesn't have much in way of a dig.

prettyboykev wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Burns takes more digs on here than Ali did in the Holmes fight.

PB your scotish and even you have a dig at him

I think you mean Scottish!

I have said he is lucky to be a World champion if his division wasn't so poor he wouldn't be. But I have also said he has worked very hard on his skills over the last couple of years and has got better after every fight up until Martinez. That's not really a dig. That's like saying he doesn't have much in way of a dig.

Edited just for you PB.

His improvement seems to have stalled since the Martinez fight. Has Burns reached his limit?

I think we've seen the best of him and if we are to see it again it will be someone of the standard of Martinez who brings it back out in him again.

prettyboykev wrote:I think we've seen the best of him and if we are to see it again it will be someone of the standard of Martinez who brings it back out in him again.

Someone who at least poses a threat too him not the likes Laryea and Evensen who have only won 27 fights between them. Nicky Cook won't be much of a step-up either.

I dont think Burns is lucky to be a world champ. The guy lost 2 fights back to back whilst with previous trainers. Joined Billy Nelson, won the Commonwealth title, defended that a few times, destroying a guy who took Funeka all 12 rounds. Then he won a title against a proper champ in Martinez, he wasn't gifted nothing.

I meant lucky in the sense that a few lbs either way and he isn't a World champion imo.

azania wrote:I dont think I'm under-estimating Lewis. But to give Lewis near equal footwrok to Ali is pusing things somewhat. Lewis had very poor footwrok imo. He was ungainly and combersome. Lewis' jab was also very poor considering his reach and height. He pawed and pushed it out. It lacked snap.

Ali fought more boxers with more power that him. The results were always the same. Ali's footspeed and handspeed wins a clear and decisive UD. 99/100 Ali wins.

Ali had better footwork, mistake in my post,
But saying lewis had poor footwork??, he wasn't the best against fighter that didn't provide him a threat but against the fighters that were good and posed a threat he had very good footwork. Lewis had one of the best jabs in the business (all-time) not going to even bother arguing about his jab which you somehow see as being poor.