Nearly time to bring Slammin' Sam on.

by englandglory4ever Sun 08 Mar 2015, 3:14 pm

Sam Burgess has made great improvements in the handful of games he has played for Bath. Last Friday he was potentially MOM. Its time to get him in the England squad for training right now. His range of skills is huge. Particularly, his wide pass is amazing. I genuinely believe he has overtaken 12Ts and possibly Luther Burrell for the 12 shirt already. Come on Lancaster just do it.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 08 Mar 2015, 3:33 pm

I didn't see the Sale match but it would have to have been very special to put him anywhere near the frame for England. He just doesn't understand the game yet.

I worry that he'll lose patience with his learning curve and go back to League. The Eggchasers podcast team wondered the other day whether he might have been better suited to the pack after all, which would mean he's lost a season of development.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun 08 Mar 2015, 3:37 pm

Just listened to the Rugaamatrix podcast this morning and they were talking to Dean Mumm.He was asked about Burgess and said that while he has the ability to be very good it'll take time,people forget that Sonny Bill Williams played with Toulon for a couple of years before he really figured the game out and became a world class player.It'll probably take Burgess a couple of seasons before he can realise his potential.

by GLove39 Sun 08 Mar 2015, 3:37 pm

If ever there was a 6Nations game to make your debut in it's this coming Saturday. We've got a habit of giving opponents pleasant first caps, hell 36 scored on debut against us!

by yappysnap Sun 08 Mar 2015, 6:58 pm

GLove39 wrote:If ever there was a 6Nations game to make your debut in it's this coming Saturday. We've got a habit of giving opponents pleasant first caps, hell 36 scored on debut against us!

That was Twelvetrees best game for England so far

by majesticimperialman Sun 08 Mar 2015, 7:15 pm

As much as i would like to see him get a run out for England. I still think it is too soon for him. But like Glove39 says, if ever there was a game to give him a start it is this week end game

by lostinwales Sun 08 Mar 2015, 8:19 pm

I think he should end up in the pack also, but playing in the centers at least he has had a good chance to get to know the game. I can't imagine that he is ready yet.

by quinsforever Sun 08 Mar 2015, 10:16 pm

stick him in. nothing like learning on the job. his basics are excellent. he isnt confident in the ruck yet, and cant turn people over as effectively as a Barritt yet, but if he's at 12, it makes the crash ball a very credible option, which makes the miss pass moves to joseph, watson et al even more scary, if 2 defenders have to line burgess up every time.

its much easier for a jj (who i am a huge fan of) to have impact in 6N because he is playing at 13 and he is not such an obvious dangerman as burgess.

i actually think burgess has done very very well so far in Union, as every time he steps on the pitch there is a target on his jersey and a siren every time he gets the ball. but he hasnt missed tackles, he hasnt gotten injured. and he's getting better every game.

sam's time is now. we dont have a settled 12. stick him in against scotland and france. he was part of the team that beat glasgow in Champs Cup, and playing against France is kind of like playing rugby league anyway. best 2 matches for him imo.

by lostinwales Sun 08 Mar 2015, 11:25 pm

Makes me giggle a little that people would have Sam at 12 and not Manu.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 08 Mar 2015, 11:40 pm

quinsforever wrote:...if he's at 12, it makes the crash ball a very credible option, which makes the miss pass moves to joseph, watson et al even more scary, if 2 defenders have to line burgess up every time..

We haven't seen much of that at Bath, when the same players are on the pitch, so it's difficult to see why it would work so much better at international level.

by offload Mon 09 Mar 2015, 6:56 am

Laughable. I did see the game against Sale and he was nowhere near mom. Since when has 'trying really hard' been enough to play an international test? He's not even the best centre at Bath let alone England. By his own admission he's on a steep learning curve and it's taking a lot longer than he expected.

by kingelderfield Mon 09 Mar 2015, 8:14 am

Burgess is a 6 or preferably an 8 and I'd imagine if he stays in the game that this is where he'll be playing next season. Ford snr was right all along.

The problem has always been the quart in a pint pot world cup time scale that is simply unrealistic when the player in question dosn't have an immediately transferable field position. Now if it were Greg Inglis one of the best RL wingers going then the situation could be very different......though there are no guarantee's.

by englandglory4ever Mon 09 Mar 2015, 8:24 am

I wish people would forget about all this rubbish about Sam playing in the back row. He is a thoroughbred. It would be like putting a race horse to the plough. Ridiculous.

by kingelderfield Mon 09 Mar 2015, 8:42 am

'thoroughbred' my bottom, I can't remember a cart horse ever winning the Derby however many times it could repeatedly run the course

by Exiledinborders Mon 09 Mar 2015, 8:51 am

englandglory4ever wrote:Sam Burgess has made great improvements in the handful of games he has played for Bath. Last Friday he was potentially MOM. Its time to get him in the England squad for training right now. His range of skills is huge. Particularly, his wide pass is amazing. I genuinely believe he has overtaken 12Ts and possibly Luther Burrell for the 12 shirt already. Come on Lancaster just do it.

i
He has improved. I think give him a year and he could get to be average.

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 12:30 pm

Wham, Bam, Slam, Thank ya kindly, Ma'am

England have some bundle of Out of this World players at the moment.... both in the side and due to come in.

If all of them get on at once, it'll be white flags from the lot of us to save on the hospital bills.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 09 Mar 2015, 12:52 pm

He'll go back to League before long, he seems fairly bored with Union and it's not something that surprises me. He was never far from the action in League and carried the ball something ridiculous like 5 times more than he is in Union, not to mention making big hit after big hit where the use of arms is often optional.

There was a very good point above above about Inglis, a winger can switch between the codes far easier than any other position in League. Whether it's Robinson, Rogers, Tuqiri etc. the best cross code players were and are in the back three.

by lostinwales Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:01 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He'll go back to League before long, he seems fairly bored with Union and it's not something that surprises me. He was never far from the action in League and carried the ball something ridiculous like 5 times more than he is in Union, not to mention making big hit after big hit where the use of arms is often optional.

There was a very good point above above about Inglis, a winger can switch between the codes far easier than any other position in League. Whether it's Robinson, Rogers, Tuqiri etc. the best cross code players were and are in the back three.

Apart from Brad Thorn but I get your point

by **rodders** Mon 09 Mar 2015, 4:54 pm

Sonny Bill would be up there too.... I thought Sam looked lost against Sale to be honest, he looks like he's trying desperately to get into games by following the ball around but just can't read what's going on, in attack or defense, to get himself involved...

by quinsforever Mon 09 Mar 2015, 7:55 pm

modern 12s dont do anything particularly noticeable. critically important yes, but eye-catching no. its why everyone has trouble picking the standout 12 in the 6Ns team of the week each round.

so i completely disagree with everyone saying burgess doesnt get it. he does, but 12 is just not the position you get to showcase you talents.

when burgess starts crashing and offloading, all of a sudden everyone is going to be gasping at how effective he is at bursting open the rush defense. it only takes one offload against a rush defense to make a clean break.

by kingelderfield Mon 09 Mar 2015, 9:59 pm

quinsforever wrote:modern 12s dont do anything particularly noticeable. critically important yes, but eye-catching no. its why everyone has trouble picking the standout 12 in the 6Ns team of the week each round.

so i completely disagree with everyone saying burgess doesnt get it. he does, but 12 is just not the position you get to showcase you talents.

when burgess starts crashing and offloading, all of a sudden everyone is going to be gasping at how effective he is at bursting open the rush defense. it only takes one offload against a rush defense to make a clean break.

Well maybe with Barritt and Burrell both doubtful and this being a home debut, just maybe this is the match to try him at IC between Ford and Joseph?

I don't see it myself, but if thats Farrells/Lancasters plan, well I can't see a better opportunity than this saturday before the WC.

by quinsforever Mon 09 Mar 2015, 10:05 pm

i just wish england would try using burgess like wales do roberts. crash hard, then see what happens, and if he can offload, the rush defense is broken.

and if they are worried about the burgess crash ball, joseph, watson etc get more space and are more likely to score.

by majesticimperialman Mon 09 Mar 2015, 10:10 pm

I am coming round to the idea that the game this week might be a good time to give him a start. If Burrell and Barrit are both injured. then it could just work in Englands favour.

Given that Ford, JJ, and Burges, all play for the same team. it might a good time after all.

I still feel it is too soon though to be honest.

by quinsforever Mon 09 Mar 2015, 11:29 pm

might be too soon, but we dont have a nailed on 12 even if everyone is fit.

will give opposition teams something to think about, and that yard of extra space for jj and the wingers might prove crucial. it really is a game of inches these days at intl level with the top teams.

by Gwlad Tue 10 Mar 2015, 12:47 am

Sam v Jamie Roberts. Now that would be a collision I would love to see.

by cb Tue 10 Mar 2015, 10:46 am

Too soon for Burgress, but he is improving though not there yet. Needs more time starting for Bath.

by englandglory4ever Tue 10 Mar 2015, 7:43 pm

Well I'm glad to hear that Lancaster has called Sam in to the squad this week. Good news . Sam needs to be near the best to learn from them quickly. I've no doubt he will.

by quinsforever Tue 10 Mar 2015, 8:03 pm

cb wrote:Too soon for Burgress, but he is improving though not there yet. Needs more time starting for Bath.

hasnt he started 4 out of the last 5 games for bath or something like that?

by rosbif Tue 10 Mar 2015, 8:13 pm

Its a joke Sam Hill out played him at Exeter and Slade is the next coming thing at 12

by Gwlad Tue 10 Mar 2015, 11:03 pm

Tactical to make him a 12 at bath…he will NEVER play for England at 12 (although pickings aren't great ) and should have been made a 6 - tackle carry and watch the blindisd; a simplistic remit perhaps but by comparison with 12 he is far better suited for it….he wants to be stuck in and hitting people, that is why he plays rugby, not combing his hair with the other fairies in the 3/4 line. By making him a 12 Bath have ensured his services will be in Bath and not in the white shirt.

by quinsforever Wed 11 Mar 2015, 12:09 am

jason robinson agrees with me. and i'll take his opinion over most peoples, as the only truly successful league to union convert for his country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31819182

12 at international level is not a flair position. it is a brute force one. in attack and defense. barritt is probably our current first choice 12. if slade is anywhere near the RWC side i will sell my tickets, as it is way way too early for him.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 11 Mar 2015, 1:11 am

quinsforever wrote:jason robinson agrees with me..

He doesn't suggest Burgess is ready now for an England place.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 Mar 2015, 8:30 am

We're looking at Burgess and what he achieved in league and looking at this potential. We're pretty much ignoring his form as it's average.

We're looking at Slade and his skill set and looking at his potential. We're thinking his form is bloody good and can he translate that to the England setup.

Personally I think Slade deserves a shot before Burgess.

by offload Wed 11 Mar 2015, 1:00 pm

quinsforever wrote: 12 at international level is not a flair position

I'm not sure I agree with this, but if you're right - what a depressing state of affairs.

by rosbif Wed 11 Mar 2015, 2:09 pm

Who was 12 in the 2003 team ..........Catt,Tindell or Greenwood?

by lostinwales Wed 11 Mar 2015, 2:23 pm

rosbif wrote:Who was 12 in the 2003 team ..........Catt,Tindell or Greenwood?

Tindall played at 13. Greenwood or Catt played at 12. I believe Greenwood had a superstition about the shirt number so wore 13 even if he lined up at 12. I hope that is the right way around Whistle

by offload Wed 11 Mar 2015, 2:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:
rosbif wrote:Who was 12 in the 2003 team ..........Catt,Tindell or Greenwood?

Tindall played at 13. Greenwood or Catt played at 12. I believe Greenwood had a superstition about the shirt number so wore 13 even if he lined up at 12. I hope that is the right way around

Catt replace Tindall for extra time.

by marty2086 Wed 11 Mar 2015, 5:38 pm

quinsforever wrote:modern 12s dont do anything particularly noticeable. critically important yes, but eye-catching no. its why everyone has trouble picking the standout 12 in the 6Ns team of the week each round.

so i completely disagree with everyone saying burgess doesnt get it. he does, but 12 is just not the position you get to showcase you talents.

when burgess starts crashing and offloading, all of a sudden everyone is going to be gasping at how effective he is at bursting open the rush defense. it only takes one offload against a rush defense to make a clean break.

No need to its Robbie Henshaw everytime thumbsup

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 11 Mar 2015, 7:46 pm

quinsforever wrote:
12 at international level is not a flair position. it is a brute force one. in attack and defense. barritt is probably our current first choice 12. if slade is anywhere near the RWC side i will sell my tickets, as it is way way too early for him.

by thomh Wed 11 Mar 2015, 8:38 pm

quinsforever wrote:
12 at international level is not a flair position. it is a brute force one. in attack and defense. barritt is probably our current first choice 12. if slade is anywhere near the RWC side i will sell my tickets, as it is way way too early for him.

What is he lacking in your view as a result of it being too early? I'd not necessarily advocate playing him this weekend but he looks like a class act.

by Blanko Wed 11 Mar 2015, 10:29 pm

Robbie Henshaw and Jared Payne. Best midfield partnership in the the NH. As we will all see this weekend

by englandglory4ever Thu 12 Mar 2015, 10:20 am

Sam is a winner. His whole psyche is about winning. England need players with that kind of outlook. Men who are often quiet and softly spoken off the pitch but change in to raging lions when they get on the pitch. Brown is another. England have one or two more. Sam needs to be in the squad. SL will find selecting him irresistible.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 12 Mar 2015, 10:25 am

englandglory4ever wrote:Sam is a winner. His whole psyche is about winning.

Michael Jordan was a winner but it didn't make him a top baseball player when he switched to the sport.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Mar 2015, 3:51 pm

Basketball to baseball? Is that how different u think league and union are?

Slade has potential. Burgess has experience. And he plays with ford, JJ and Watson. So he is also gaining familiarity.

Pointless to use Slade now IMO as he is a good prospect for next RWC. Burgess has that big game mentality, experience and hunger. He is our only player who would fel genuinely comfortable lining up against SBW at RWC

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Mar 2015, 3:56 pm

But he's not playing particularly well.

by quinsforever Thu 12 Mar 2015, 4:00 pm

Neither are any others at 12 for England. No one owns the shirt

by lostinwales Thu 12 Mar 2015, 4:37 pm

Assuming (and yes its a big assumption) Manu is fit, can anyone come up with something that Burgess at 12 can do that Manu can't do at least as well?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Mar 2015, 4:39 pm

The others involved would be mentionedf or their current club form or past international form. Burgess has yet to demonstrate any in union. I ve been more impressed by Devoto.

by englandglory4ever Thu 12 Mar 2015, 8:22 pm

Devoto is a donkey. Burgess is a class rugby player getting better every week. Last week he looked very comfortable playing Union. He is a talent that just needs support and a little time. BUT he needs to be included in the England squad he is that good and should be fast tracked.

At last (only in one game last week) are Bath starting to utilise Burgess. They have just started to actually pass the ball to him. Mike Ford needs his bumps felt. To have such a quality player in the team and not get the ball to him at almost every opportunity is a crime.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Mar 2015, 8:51 pm

A donkey! Oh dear. Granted he s got a helluva way to go. So s Burgess from his current performances. Now being pushed to13; 6 next season?

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