Ireland Attack.

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Clearly this is a weakness in the current irish team. It was frankly embarrassing to watch us get knocked further and further back so close to the welsh try line. It has already been said that if Ireland are far behind, they will find it very hard to get back into the game. This will kill us against better teams that are clinical with their chances in attack, if we do not have any way of generating points ourselves other than to force penalties.

Our tactical kicking game so far has been very good and for the most part it has been wonderfully executed, however we need to create more try scoring opportunities. We seemed to look much more dangerous when Eoin Reddan came on and quickened the service, and a lot of the substitutions generally did make an impact (not to sound too cliche) but whatever it was, the service at the breakdown was much quicker and players were taking the ball at pace. We need to do this for the full game and not just switch on at the end.

I am a big fan of Connor Murray, but there is a time and a place for marshalling the forwards into position, or preparing for a good box kick, and a time to just get the ball out quick and catch the opposition defence off guard. With the speed of service currently the opposition has far too much time to get into position and adjust to our attack. Murray needs to improve here, big time. On the occasions where we inevitably do have slow ball, we need options who can create space with very little themselves, or just power through the gain line.

It will be interesting to hear people's thoughts on how this can be achieved, what personnel changes should be made (if any) or even if people do not think it is a weakness at all and just a knee jerk reaction to the loss.

Notch,

Again maybe you are not actually reading what is being said. I am saying that Kearney looks way off form and needs to be rested but his direct replacement in Felix Jones is, in my opinion, not good enough so that leaves Ireland with Payne to play at 15 as he is the next best option given that he plays there for Ulster. That's the reason why I think the centres should be changed, not because Payne has not performed but because Kearney has not.

Payne has been solid in defense but I feel he would be better at 15 as Kearney is not performing and that Earls is in sublime form and would bring that extra attacking dimension to the Irish backline.

Sin é wrote:I'd move Jared to fullback Notch, not drop him. Henshaw's physicality is needed in the centre. I also think that the role he plays at 12 suits Henshaw's lack of international experience at the moment.

I'd agree with you there- he has less decisions to make in defence. 13 is one of the hardest positions to defend in. We also need his strength. I do think Payne could play well at 15 in games that we aren't expecting to be tight, kick dominated affairs. But actually right now his strength in terms of carrying is very important to us as well.

I've been surprised at just how strong in contact he has been.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Notch,

Again maybe you are not actually reading what is being said. I am saying that Kearney looks way off form and needs to be rested but his direct replacement in Felix Jones is, in my opinion, not good enough so that leaves Ireland with Payne to play at 15 as he is the next best option given that he plays there for Ulster. That's the reason why I think the centres should be changed, not because Payne has not performed but because Kearney has not.

Payne has been solid in defense but I feel he would be better at 15 as Kearney is not performing and that Earls is in sublime form and would bring that extra attacking dimension to the Irish backline.

You're forgetting two players who can attack extremely well from fullback; Simon Zebo and Craig Gilroy.

I actually am of the opinion in the long term, at test level, Zebo could be a better fullback than a winger.

I believe that you need a very good one on one tackler at 15 and that is Payne. Zebo and Gilroy's defense is not bad but not as good as Payne's. Zebo is fine where he is on the wing.

International is International!!!!

Has Zebo tried 15 at International yet?

Why do we rush to say that other players would work when we have no proof?

I find myself just like I was back in Kidney's day.  I ask myself why Kearney is playing so impotently and yet still getting picked.  We asked why was O'Gara playing such 'kick away' rugby at 10 when Sexton was there to improve things.  But when Sexton came in, he played the same 'kick-away' stuff because it was team orders/tactics.

So WOULD Zebo bring an extra dimension?  If he would and Schmidt sees how under the weather Kearney is then such a change should be natural to strengthen our hand.  Or even placing Payne there.

So why is it not happening and why does Kearney constantly repeat his lines over and over again and bring absolutely nothing cutting or dynamic to his role? He isn't really even challenging for the more difficult catches anymore like he used to do and which was basically his strongest selling point at one time.

Why do a lot of the players seem well off form?  Even at Provincial so far this year, most Irish players way off form.  Why?  Is it a pre-planned different form building programme we're on to the other sides?  Has Nucifora, Schmidt, or whoever is in charge, demanded that Provinces delay 'best form' production work until later with an eye on the world cup?

Why, with a new conditioning coach and a new director of rugby, do so many of our players seem just not really there at the highest levels so far?  We were winning on basic rugby and by the seat of our pants.

So I'd like those questions answered first before saying replacements will naturally make us better.

Indeed, we had Murphy and TOD working solidly and in form, and they were replaced by players who have yet to genuinely prove any form.

SecretFly wrote:International is International!!!!

Has Zebo tried 15 at International yet?

Yes, against South Africa in 2012 and he was outstanding. Thats already more experience at test level fullback play than Payne has. It may be three years ago, but he's only gotten improved every aspect of his game since then. He wouldn't bring an extra dimension under team orders, but he is more likely to step and beat a man than Kearney and more likely to pass within the same game plan.

Also more likely to be beaten in the air than a Kearney but a small change, not a big one, that could slightly change the function of our fullback. I didn't say its going to naturally make us much better or fix anything. It's just a small tweak in the great scheme of things. One of dozens of tiny things we could try to change things, most of which have nothing to do with selection.

Actually if we talk about Rob Kearney- he doesn't bring anything dynamic regardless of the game plan. He's playing the same way as he always plays for Leinster, as he played for the Lions and as he's played under three separate national coaches. If Joe Schmidt couldn't get him to pass for three years in Leinster when he was trying to be innovative in attack, what makes you think he can change Kearneys game now- regardless of the tactics we play?

Kearney brought plenty of dynamicism both to Ireland and Leinster when in much better form back in the day.  He is nowhere close to the same player in the air as he once was - like I asked before, has something happened there that makes him fearful of it now.  And in a running attacking side like Leinster he has had plenty of go forward potency when much closer to the opposition try line.  But that's not the game we're playing and he's way off personal top form.  Whether he'll ever get back there, I don't know.  I still wonder about what form programme the Irish players are on for the year.

Anyway, I still say if you and others can see Zebo or Payne at 15 then why can't Schmidt see it?

Well to be perfectly honest I would usually argue against replacing Kearney with either of those players, even when he's not playing that well- except in the scenario where we need to go out and score a load of points in the last round of the Six Nations to try and win the thing on points difference. So I don't think it's strange at all to have seen Kearney in the last four games. I'd have picked him. Next week we probably need a slightly different approach.

Thats the only reason I'm bringing it up now. I don't think Schmidt will make many changes in the back line, if any, and I'm fairly okay with that. It's the pack I'm concerned about. We can slightly increase our ball carrying power with a few changes in the tight five.

Well I see the weaknesses further back than the pack. And I haven't been convinced by Kearney for quite a while now. If he's doing Schmidt's bidding then fine. I'm not so sure its just that.

SecretFly wrote:Well I see the weaknesses further back than the pack.  And I haven't been convinced by Kearney for quite a while now.  If he's doing Schmidt's bidding then fine.  I'm not so sure its just that.

Thats what I've been saying.

?
Well I mean Notch that I wouldn't have been so ready to pick him for this 6N at all.

SecretFly wrote:?  
Well I mean Notch that I wouldn't have been so ready to pick him for this 6N at all.  

No I would, but I agree with you on his weaknesses as a player. And certainly his weaknesses as an attacking player. However his defence and fielding is still better than any other candidates and that suits the game plan we've needed to play better thus far. His form has nothing to do with Schmidts bidding. Sure, cutting back inside and all of the backs moves are all Schmidt but he generally plays the same way regardless of the game plan. He's never been able to really scythe through defences.

Once we need to try and attack more, like when we need to win by the biggest margin possible in the last round of the 6N, I would prefer Zebo (backed up by Payne or Gilroy). If the game plan changes towards a more attack-minded game then he looks the most vulnerable of our backs. Once Trimble is back a Trimble, Bowe and Zebo back three would be very close to my first choice for the RWC. I also suspect that this competition will be very good for him in terms of forcing him to rediscover top form. Starting some games on the bench will in the end be good for him.

However I do think he can play exactly how he is now against some teams who tackle poorly or we get some quick ball and suddenly people will think he's getting back to his best form again... our issue is running backs moves off slow ball against teams who have numbered up and are perfectly organised. So I'm not stressed if we keep the same team.

Kearney is not a good defender and Bowe isn't pulling up any trees (and hasn't since his injury on the Lions). He is lucky to be starting.

SecretFly wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

A lot of Irish fans took issue to English fans saying we didn't think you were that much of a better team than us, and that a lot of the problems we faced was a result of our failings. I think that is similar to many posters response to the Wales defeat.

I'm personally making the distinction though Hood.  I'm saying we were terrible at our own errors.  But I'm not saying Wales didn't beat us fair and square.  Their part in the equation was when they were playing their game against us - and it was working - and their players were hitting everything that moved - hard! - and making it all count.  That was them.  They were doing the hard work and keeping Ireland on the back foot.  
They - Wales - won the game.
We - Ireland - didn't beat ourselves.
But the parts of our game that didn't involve the Welsh - for example that time when the backs were crying for the ball to come out to them - that was us, killing our own chances.  And kicking out on the full was killing our own chances.  And not being refined enough in finding gaps was killing our chances.

But Wales won the game - fair and square.

The bits I read concerning the afters of the Irish/English game was that Irish fans got ratty that England were insinuating that their own lack of accuracy lost them the game; ie, that they beat themselves.  Some Irish fans felt that was unfair to the effort Ireland made, particularly at the breakdown and scrum - where England expected dominance didn't emerge due to Irish pressure.  I think that's where the 'disagreement' on interpretation came from.

Yeah, I think they were wrong and being very unfair in their interpretation of posters talking of English mistakes, which seemed very largely to be focused on mistakes like kicking too far and not chasing i.e. our mistakes, but also on where Ireland were plain better i.e. accurate kicking and winning their own ball back. Our kicking too far was then said to be a result of Irish pressure. So everything was a result of Irish supremacy.

I guess it's a matter of interpretation, or clearer explanation.

One thing I've noticed is Sexton doesn't seem to have an appreciation of the wider pass. he missed an dead cert try against England when he chose a short offload when two well placed backs were wider out.

Against Wales a couple of times on their line he didn't look again, favouring to shovel it to the next receiver. One of the whole reasons for the many one ups is to draw the defence in to create the space wider out.

Taylorman wrote:he didn't look again

Was he looking at all on Saturday ? At one point, Murray passed him the ball and he had his back turned, the ball hit his outstreched arm and was judged to go backwards, when he is on his game he can be class, but on Saturday he was anything but class, that is why for my liking he will never be world class as some of the Irish on here would have us beleive.

Grand. Another World Class player bites the dust under the strain of playing Wales.

No World Class players in the Welsh side last year?

Sin é wrote:Kearney is not a good defender and Bowe isn't pulling up any trees (and hasn't since his injury on the Lions). He is lucky to be starting.

I think none of the back 3 have been great in attack. But then its easy to make keen jerk reactions.

I just think Wales did to us what we did to England and France, so fair play to them and Gatland. they took our strengths and beat us at them - the arial battle, the breakdown, defence and the maul.

But even with that, and giving them the 16 point lead, we had chances to win. I don't think it was as bad as people think.

I though using O'Connell in midfield was really clevel and he made 2 line breaks. Bowe almost scored a trademark try - Reddan, Henderon and Cronin added another dimension when they came on.

Maybe the biggest thing was 4-5 key players had slightly off days - Best, Murray, Sexton, O'Mahoney and SOB and a lot of players lost the 1-1 battle with their opposites.

Think you are spot on Rodders. Ireland werent too far off the mark. Losing will probably prove to be good for Ireland in the long run though as it really highlights the things we need to work on in the WC. That game v Wales had real WC 1/4 final intensity so we know what we need to work towards.

rodders,

Do you feel that Kearney is in good enough form? I have said from the start the he looks well off the pace and out of form and should be rested. It would do him good I feel.

Heaslip and SOB were clearly not fit for such an intense match and I feel that Schmidt got it wrong by starting them especially after TOD and Murphy did well in their absence.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:rodders,

Do you feel that Kearney is in good enough form? I have said from the start the he looks well off the pace and out of form and should be rested. It would do him good I feel.

Heaslip and SOB were clearly not fit for such an intense match and I feel that Schmidt got it wrong by starting them especially after TOD and Murphy did well in their absence.

Well yes I do...in that he's playing how he always plays. He's never going to offer a lot from the back in terms of counterattacking and he's by far the best player we have under the high ball.

Like Payne would offer something totally different - a bit of x factor but the game plan would have to be ripped up.... you could try Zebo and bring Fitzgerald onto the left wing but don't think this will happen.

The timing between all the backs just seems a fraction off - we came very close to opening Wales up close to the ruck a few times, a Schmidt trademark, but just the exection wasn't 100%. Trimble and Rob K had a lot of success their last year - I can think of 3 tries at least.

I'd consider starting Reddan against Scotland but don't think we'll see any changes.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:
Heaslip and SOB were clearly not fit for such an intense match and I feel that Schmidt got it wrong by starting them especially after TOD and Murphy did well in their absence.

Yup could argue O'Donnell is in better form than SOB, but given Barnes didn't allow any contest on the deck maybe he wouldn't have made much difference.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Kearney is not a good defender and Bowe isn't pulling up any trees (and hasn't since his injury on the Lions). He is lucky to be starting.

I think none of the back 3 have been great in attack. But then its easy to make keen jerk reactions.

I just think Wales did to us what we did to England and France, so fair play to them and Gatland. they took our strengths and beat us at them - the arial battle, the breakdown, defence and the maul.

But even with that, and giving them the 16 point lead, we had chances to win. I don't think it was as bad as people think.

I though using O'Connell in midfield was really clevel and he made 2 line breaks. Bowe almost scored a trademark try - Reddan, Henderon and Cronin added another dimension when they came on.

Maybe the biggest thing was 4-5 key players had slightly off days - Best, Murray, Sexton, O'Mahoney and SOB and a lot of players lost the 1-1 battle with their opposites.  

A bundle of reasonable stuff there.  Doesn't change the fact though that Kearney wouldn't be 15 on many other sides right now on his form.  Zebo was light in the physical side when the physical really got physical.  Bowe is way off his best and looks uneasy in certain areas and lacking vital pace.

So?????  Guys having off days - sure.  Guys who should let others in?  A few of those too.  And I'm not just making those conclusions around the Welsh game.

GunsGerms wrote:Think you are spot on Rodders. Ireland werent too far off the mark. Losing will probably prove to be good for Ireland in the long run though as it really highlights the things we need to work on in the WC. That game v Wales had real WC 1/4 final intensity so we know what we need to work towards.

Well we have to loose sometime Guns...better now than in a RWC QF/SF. Really gutted to the see the GS slip away but if we can bounce back next week and finish strongly I think we can take a lot of positives away from the tournament - irrespective of who finished on top now (hopefully us!).

A lot to work on too, between now and the Autumn but at least we are getting some real consistency but this game shows we have to be 100% to win these games - NZ can drop off a bit and win but we can't.

Thing is rodders, I don't think that he is that good under the high ball right now, certainly not as good as he was and his running the ball back and kicking has also dropped. On form, one of the best 15's in the world but off form (like now) can be an issue.

TOD is in better form than SOB right now and its not just about competing for the ball on the deck but the open play running, TOD offers far more there right now. Fit and in form, SOB every day of the week but right now TOD is the better option. Same goes for Murphy over Heaslip.

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:rodders,

Do you feel that Kearney is in good enough form? I have said from the start the he looks well off the pace and out of form and should be rested. It would do him good I feel.

Heaslip and SOB were clearly not fit for such an intense match and I feel that Schmidt got it wrong by starting them especially after TOD and Murphy did well in their absence.

Well yes I do...in that he's playing how he always plays. He's never going to offer a lot from the back in terms of counterattacking and he's by far the best player we have under the high ball.

I genuinely think that's an old memory that's clogged there in your present day consciousness, rodders.  If Rob Kearney is now our best player under the high ball then our supposed biggest strength all season so far (going on media hype) is in a bad condition.

Kearney is missing as much as he catches these days and isn't going nearly so high to compete as he once did.  He's well off the boil in that department and I can't see how people see otherwise.

SecretFly wrote:A bundle of reasonable stuff there.  Doesn't change the fact though that Kearney wouldn't be 15 on many other sides right now on his form.  Zebo was light in the physical side when the physical really got physical.  Bowe is way off his best and looks uneasy in certain areas and lacking vital pace.

So?????  Guys having off days - sure.  Guys who should let others in?  A few of those too.  And I'm not just making those conclusions around the Welsh game.

Yes but don't forget Bowe had a great Autumn and we were all praising Zebo and Bowe's work under the high ball and restarts a few games ago.

I'm sure both will be disappointed they aren't scoring more but apart from Joseph and maybe Ford for England no one is lighting up the competition in attack - defences are on top.

I don't think anyone is that far of their best...Bowe was a fraction from scoring and then people would view his performance differently.

I honestly don't see who would make a difference...although one thing that stood out is that Jones was left on the bench, which suggests Joe sees him as a guy to close out games and not an impact option, if things are tight, so maybe he'll have to think about bring Fitzgerald or Earls onto the bench.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Think you are spot on Rodders. Ireland werent too far off the mark. Losing will probably prove to be good for Ireland in the long run though as it really highlights the things we need to work on in the WC. That game v Wales had real WC 1/4 final intensity so we know what we need to work towards.

Well we have to loose sometime Guns...better now than in a RWC QF/SF. Really gutted to the see the GS slip away but if we can bounce back next week and finish strongly I think we can take a lot of positives away from the tournament - irrespective of who finished on top now (hopefully us!).

A lot to work on too, between now and the Autumn but at least we are getting some real consistency but this game shows we have to be 100% to win these games - NZ can drop off a bit and win but we can't.

Yeah thats it really. A lose to this Wales side in Cardiff isnt the end of the world. It does mean he have work to do though.

If we win the championship it wont matter a massive amount really but my gut feeling is that we will come second or third.

I liked how Wales used a lot of depth in their backs moves it seemed to be the key to unlocking Irelands defense so perhaps it is something we could look at using for certain plays.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:rodders,

Do you feel that Kearney is in good enough form? I have said from the start the he looks well off the pace and out of form and should be rested. It would do him good I feel.

Heaslip and SOB were clearly not fit for such an intense match and I feel that Schmidt got it wrong by starting them especially after TOD and Murphy did well in their absence.

Well yes I do...in that he's playing how he always plays. He's never going to offer a lot from the back in terms of counterattacking and he's by far the best player we have under the high ball.

I genuinely think that's an old memory that's clogged there in your present day consciousness, rodders.  If Rob Kearney is now our best player under the high ball then our supposed biggest strength all season so far (going on media hype) is in a bad condition.

Kearney is missing as much as he catches these days and isn't going nearly so high to compete as he once did.  He's well off the boil in that department and I can't see how people see otherwise.

Best fullback under the high ball I meant. He's not in great form I agree but wouldn't see Jones or Payne as better options, given the gameplan.

If Trimble was fit then maybe Zebo could switch to 15 but really don't see a change for next week.

Maybe its time to consider a backrow of TOD at 7 SOB at 6 and Heaslip at 8. Has a nice look to it. Think that may have been more effective v Wales.

Either way Lydiate and Warburton ran the show on Saturday. They were immense.

I am not basing my opinions based on the one loss to Wales. I have actually been saying these things for a few weeks now. I saw the weakness' in Ireland's performance against Italy on the opening day. Two very cagy wins over England and France did nothing more to change my views and I believed Ireland were there for the taking by a team that exposed their weakness'. Wales did that and did it well.

People who say, oh well it could have been a draw and was very close in the end are the same people that were saying that Ireland won against France and England comfortably. Thing is, Wales finished off Ireland in the exact same manner as Ireland did to France and England.

I cant understand why people cannot see that Ireland are not performing, winning yes, but not performing to the capabilities. This is not down to 'off days' by certain players, its down to the selection of players who are underperforming (maybe due to injury) or out of form. When Ireland have players who performed well only to be dropped back to the bench for players under form and carrying injuries, it worries me.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:A bundle of reasonable stuff there.  Doesn't change the fact though that Kearney wouldn't be 15 on many other sides right now on his form.  Zebo was light in the physical side when the physical really got physical.  Bowe is way off his best and looks uneasy in certain areas and lacking vital pace.

So?????  Guys having off days - sure.  Guys who should let others in?  A few of those too.  And I'm not just making those conclusions around the Welsh game.

Yes but don't forget Bowe had a great Autumn and we were all praising Zebo and Bowe's work under the high ball and restarts a few games ago.

Many people, fans and the media were.  I wasn't.  And haven't been.  Bowe especially was often in good positions for a collection but instead has decided to mostly slap back rather than catch this season. 
That neither convinces me he's comfortable catching, nor do I think it a safe method as that's often when the opposition can steal and counter. Plus it's often not accurate enough and the slaps can risk going forward.
I've been saying for ages that Bowe is very suspect in catching these 50/50s and those 'Margins' - as Joe likes to keep calling them - are important at the top level.

LordDowlais wrote:

Taylorman wrote:he didn't look again

Was he looking at all on Saturday ? At one point, Murray passed him the ball and he had his back turned, the ball hit his outstreched arm and was judged to go backwards, when he is on his game he can be class, but on Saturday he was anything but class, that is why for my liking he will never be world class as some of the Irish on here would have us beleive.

Anyone can have a bad game, for my money he's the best fly half about, or if not then a very close second to Cruden, did you miss his games against France and England?

I'm not Irish either

GunsGerms wrote:

I liked how Wales used a lot of depth in their backs moves it seemed to be the key to unlocking Irelands defense so perhaps it is something we could look at using for certain plays.

That's why everything I say, I actually have second thoughts on.  But you can't keep giving two thoughts on everything.  People get to thinking you're loopy

But that's the point.  What the hell is Joe playing at?  
He must see the absolute fundamental benefits of what Wales did in attack as being a blueprint for getting backs into a game.  He ain't dumb, he's played running from depth at pace before.  So you wonder why so sluggish, why the desire not to keep the opposition guessing?  Why everything the Irish backs attempt is from standing still, flat, nose-to-nose contact with the opposition defence spread out and smoking a cigarette as they await the inevitable collision?

There has got to be method to Joe's limited attitude to attack so far.  I'm trying to work it out but it's frustrating because it isn't rocket science to see what's needed but his coaching team seem to be doggedly resistant so far.

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Taylorman wrote:he didn't look again

Was he looking at all on Saturday ? At one point, Murray passed him the ball and he had his back turned, the ball hit his outstreched arm and was judged to go backwards, when he is on his game he can be class, but on Saturday he was anything but class, that is why for my liking he will never be world class as some of the Irish on here would have us beleive.

Anyone can have a bad game, for my money he's the best fly half about, or if not then a very close second to Cruden, did you miss his games against France and England?

I'm not Irish either

I am not saying he not any good, he is one of the best in the 6N, but the way some of our Irish butties on here wax lyrical about him sometimes is a little wide of the mark to say the least. When he is on his game he is class, but he is prone to having a bad day at the office, which is why I would not call him world class like some people on here would have us beleive.

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Taylorman wrote:he didn't look again

Was he looking at all on Saturday ? At one point, Murray passed him the ball and he had his back turned, the ball hit his outstreched arm and was judged to go backwards, when he is on his game he can be class, but on Saturday he was anything but class, that is why for my liking he will never be world class as some of the Irish on here would have us beleive.

Anyone can have a bad game, for my money he's the best fly half about, or if not then a very close second to Cruden, did you miss his games against France and England?

I'm not Irish either

Noted Bam Thanks for the vote of confidence. Some of us don't do it too well for ourselves

LordDowlais wrote:

I am not saying he not any good, he is one of the best in the 6N, but the way some of our Irish butties on here wax lyrical about him sometimes is a little wide of the mark to say the least. When he is on his game he is class, but he is prone to having a bad day at the office, which is why I would not call him world class like some people on here would have us beleive.

Again, Lord, we'll await some of the Welsh boys having a bad day at the office.  But I seem to recall that's already happened only a few weeks ago?  Some of those World Class guys who had the bad day not now eligible to be 'World Class'?  

What are you on about lad!!!???  Make logical sense please.  My head is loopy enough trying to work Ireland out without a Welsh lad entering the mix with his definitions of 'World Class' in his pokitz!!!!!

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I am not basing my opinions based on the one loss to Wales. I have actually been saying these things for a few weeks now. I saw the weakness' in Ireland's performance against Italy on the opening day. Two very cagy wins over England and France did nothing more to change my views and I believed Ireland were there for the taking by a team that exposed their weakness'. Wales did that and did it well.

People who say, oh well it could have been a draw and was very close in the end are the same people that were saying that Ireland won against France and England comfortably. Thing is, Wales finished off Ireland in the exact same manner as Ireland did to France and England.

I cant understand why people cannot see that Ireland are not performing, winning yes, but not performing to the capabilities. This is not down to 'off days' by certain players, its down to the selection of players who are underperforming (maybe due to injury) or out of form. When Ireland have players who performed well only to be dropped back to the bench for players under form and carrying injuries, it worries me.

That isnt exactly true. Ireland looked in control v England and France and the result wasnt ever really in doubt because Ireland dominated both those teams in all areas including the scoreboard. However, in the Wales game Ireland battered the Wales line going through over 30 phases of play to potentially draw the game. Neither France nor England came that close at all.

Ireland dominated the posession and territory stats in all three games so I really dont think Wales' win v Ireland was as comfortable or clinical as Irelands wins v France and England. Against Wales the game plan did not work and we performed below par in a few key areas, lineout, attack, breakdown and in the air. Our restarts werent up to scratch either.

Wales were good value for their win but your comment is off the mark IMO.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:
I cant understand why people cannot see that Ireland are not performing, winning yes, but not performing to the capabilities.

Because performing is a relative term - relative to yourself and relative to the oposition. It also depends on the measurable and I think a lot of people are being fixated on a few aspects of the game which aren't functioning 100%.

Generally the set piece has been very good, better than expected. The breakdown very good -discipline and defence excellent -very few handling errors or penalties.

Even in attack I think we've some decent carries, some innovation in midfield (setting up the maul against France, the 2 breaks from O'Connell against Wales.

I think we actually did really well at creating space against Wales but then went one or 2 phases too many back against the grain and then blew the overlap - a throw back to the Kidney era - but this can be rectified, I just think Henshaw and Payne need to be more vocal and not afraid to overrule POC and Sexton.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I am not saying he not any good, he is one of the best in the 6N, but the way some of our Irish butties on here wax lyrical about him sometimes is a little wide of the mark to say the least. When he is on his game he is class, but he is prone to having a bad day at the office, which is why I would not call him world class like some people on here would have us beleive.

Again, Lord, we'll await some of the Welsh boys having a bad day at the office.  But I seem to recall that's already happened only a few weeks ago?  Some of those World Class guys who had the bad day not now eligible to be 'World Class'?  

What are you on about lad!!!???  Make logical sense please.  My head is loopy enough trying to work Ireland out without a Welsh lad entering the mix with his definitions of 'World Class' in his pokitz!!!!!

I think Wales have one or two world class players, and when I say this I mean they would get into any side in the world, Ireland have one or two as well, but Johnny Sexton is not one of them.

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I am not basing my opinions based on the one loss to Wales. I have actually been saying these things for a few weeks now. I saw the weakness' in Ireland's performance against Italy on the opening day. Two very cagy wins over England and France did nothing more to change my views and I believed Ireland were there for the taking by a team that exposed their weakness'. Wales did that and did it well.

People who say, oh well it could have been a draw and was very close in the end are the same people that were saying that Ireland won against France and England comfortably. Thing is, Wales finished off Ireland in the exact same manner as Ireland did to France and England.

I cant understand why people cannot see that Ireland are not performing, winning yes, but not performing to the capabilities. This is not down to 'off days' by certain players, its down to the selection of players who are underperforming (maybe due to injury) or out of form. When Ireland have players who performed well only to be dropped back to the bench for players under form and carrying injuries, it worries me.

That isnt exactly true. Ireland looked in control v England and France and the result wasnt ever really in doubt because Ireland dominated both those teams in all areas including the scoreboard. However, in the Wales game Ireland battered the Wales line going through over 30 phases of play to potentially draw the game. Neither France nor England came that close at all.

Ireland dominated the posession and territory stats in all three games so I really dont think Wales' win v Ireland was as comfortable or clinical as Irelands wins v France and England. Against Wales the game plan did not work and we performed below par in a few key areas, lineout, attack, breakdown and in the air. Our restarts werent up to scratch either.

Wales were good value for their win but your comment is off the mark IMO.

I beg to differ, both against France and England, Ireland got the points on the board and tried to shut up shop with 15-20minutes to go and both France and England had Ireland under extreme pressure towards the end of those matches. In no way, in my mind, was Ireland comfortable in the last 15-20mins of either of those matches. France and England threw everything and but for some handling error's and better decision making, may have beaten Ireland just as Ireland may have done against Wales.

The similarities between Wales win over Ireland and Ireland's wins over France and England were exactly the same in my opinion. I did not see either of those 3 matches were one team was totally in control for the closing periods of the matches.

I see our kicking and chasing stats as good because other sides (pre-Wales) were crap at competing there or defending there.  So we choose to read - 'Great wins'.

But go back and look at the fluffs.  Don't just look at the good catches and claims - look at the giving-hope-a-chance tricks when players went for balls with their eyes off the ball, heads down, grasping , clasping, fingering.

It wasn't all sweet.  The Sweetest Kick and Chase this season by far was coming from Wales.  Resolute - confident - courageous, determined to do it right - eyes on the ball all the way.

We're really not even the best at our alleged Best Bit.  We're not.  If I thought we were, I'd say so.

So we need additions to the game that beat France or England.  And those additions need to be streamed in from here on in - IF they are three on the training field already.  We need a return to genuine variety - at pace.
Last year was better.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I am not saying he not any good, he is one of the best in the 6N, but the way some of our Irish butties on here wax lyrical about him sometimes is a little wide of the mark to say the least. When he is on his game he is class, but he is prone to having a bad day at the office, which is why I would not call him world class like some people on here would have us beleive.

Again, Lord, we'll await some of the Welsh boys having a bad day at the office.  But I seem to recall that's already happened only a few weeks ago?  Some of those World Class guys who had the bad day not now eligible to be 'World Class'?  

What are you on about lad!!!???  Make logical sense please.  My head is loopy enough trying to work Ireland out without a Welsh lad entering the mix with his definitions of 'World Class' in his pokitz!!!!!

I think Wales have one or two world class players, and when I say this I mean they would get into any side in the world, Ireland have one or two as well, but Johnny Sexton is not one of them.

Bull Lord.  You got caught out and are retracing.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I am not saying he not any good, he is one of the best in the 6N, but the way some of our Irish butties on here wax lyrical about him sometimes is a little wide of the mark to say the least. When he is on his game he is class, but he is prone to having a bad day at the office, which is why I would not call him world class like some people on here would have us beleive.

Again, Lord, we'll await some of the Welsh boys having a bad day at the office.  But I seem to recall that's already happened only a few weeks ago?  Some of those World Class guys who had the bad day not now eligible to be 'World Class'?  

What are you on about lad!!!???  Make logical sense please.  My head is loopy enough trying to work Ireland out without a Welsh lad entering the mix with his definitions of 'World Class' in his pokitz!!!!!

I think Wales have one or two world class players, and when I say this I mean they would get into any side in the world, Ireland have one or two as well, but Johnny Sexton is not one of them.

Bull Lord.  You got caught out and are retracing.

But do you agree with me SF ?

I don't think Johnny Sexton would get into any side in the world, he wouldn't get into NZ. But he would get into the match day squad at least of any other side in the world.

Tbh, we know Sexton. We know his strengths and his weaknesses. We also know he's been the player who has had the most over the top hype in the media directed at him.

Don't listen to journalists hype and hyperbole about a player and assume that all fans share the same inflated opinion.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I am not basing my opinions based on the one loss to Wales. I have actually been saying these things for a few weeks now. I saw the weakness' in Ireland's performance against Italy on the opening day. Two very cagy wins over England and France did nothing more to change my views and I believed Ireland were there for the taking by a team that exposed their weakness'. Wales did that and did it well.

People who say, oh well it could have been a draw and was very close in the end are the same people that were saying that Ireland won against France and England comfortably. Thing is, Wales finished off Ireland in the exact same manner as Ireland did to France and England.

I cant understand why people cannot see that Ireland are not performing, winning yes, but not performing to the capabilities. This is not down to 'off days' by certain players, its down to the selection of players who are underperforming (maybe due to injury) or out of form. When Ireland have players who performed well only to be dropped back to the bench for players under form and carrying injuries, it worries me.

That isnt exactly true. Ireland looked in control v England and France and the result wasnt ever really in doubt because Ireland dominated both those teams in all areas including the scoreboard. However, in the Wales game Ireland battered the Wales line going through over 30 phases of play to potentially draw the game. Neither France nor England came that close at all.

Ireland dominated the posession and territory stats in all three games so I really dont think Wales' win v Ireland was as comfortable or clinical as Irelands wins v France and England. Against Wales the game plan did not work and we performed below par in a few key areas, lineout, attack, breakdown and in the air. Our restarts werent up to scratch either.

Wales were good value for their win but your comment is off the mark IMO.

I beg to differ, both against France and England, Ireland got the points on the board and tried to shut up shop with 15-20minutes to go and both France and England had Ireland under extreme pressure towards the end of those matches. In no way, in my mind, was Ireland comfortable in the last 15-20mins of either of those matches. France and England threw everything and but for some handling error's and better decision making, may have beaten Ireland just as Ireland may have done against Wales.

The similarities between Wales win over Ireland and Ireland's wins over France and England were exactly the same in my opinion. I did not see either of those 3 matches were one team was totally in control for the closing periods of the matches.

I think the fact that Wales had set a new Six Nations record with 250 tackles tells you all you need to know and indeed proof that you are wrong. When was the last time you saw an International team hammer at a line with over 32 phases?

England lost by 10 points. Pressure or not they were never going to win.

Equally France were pretty limp in attack for most of the game and looked pretty lost. Ireland in no way had to endure anything remotely close to the onslaught they put on Wales in the last 10 minutes. So no your comments are clearly not correct.

Well Sexton was the highest paid player in France for a while so its not just the Irish who rate him and was test fly half for the Lions.

I'd take him over any of the SH fly halves... other than a fully fit Carter, which we haven't seen in a few years.

I'd say by the next Lions tour Ford will be numero uno along with the SA fella(?) but right here, right now I wouldn't swap him.

Handre Pollard?

Ford is shaping up nicely alright. Hope he isnt the next Matthew Tait.

GunsGerms wrote:

I think the fact that Wales had set a new Six Nations record with 250 tackles tells you all you need to know and indeed proof that you are wrong.

England lost by 10 points. Pressure or not they were never going to win.

Equally France were pretty limp in attack for most of the game and looked pretty lost. Ireland in no way had to endure anything remotely close to the onslaught they put on Wales in the last 10 minutes. So no your comments are clearly not correct.

No it shows just how much pressure Ireland were forcing on Wales at the end, just as France and England did to Ireland in the closing stages. The tackle count stats is great but there was a very similar closing stages in all three matches whereby the side leading were closing out the match and the sides behind were applying great pressure.

Well I am off to a pre Paddy's day BBQ and drinks now. Will be back 1 or 2 days after Paddy's day, depending on how much I drink and if I even survive

Enjoy tomorrow lads.