Ireland Attack.

First topic message reminder :

Clearly this is a weakness in the current irish team. It was frankly embarrassing to watch us get knocked further and further back so close to the welsh try line. It has already been said that if Ireland are far behind, they will find it very hard to get back into the game. This will kill us against better teams that are clinical with their chances in attack, if we do not have any way of generating points ourselves other than to force penalties.

Our tactical kicking game so far has been very good and for the most part it has been wonderfully executed, however we need to create more try scoring opportunities. We seemed to look much more dangerous when Eoin Reddan came on and quickened the service, and a lot of the substitutions generally did make an impact (not to sound too cliche) but whatever it was, the service at the breakdown was much quicker and players were taking the ball at pace. We need to do this for the full game and not just switch on at the end.

I am a big fan of Connor Murray, but there is a time and a place for marshalling the forwards into position, or preparing for a good box kick, and a time to just get the ball out quick and catch the opposition defence off guard. With the speed of service currently the opposition has far too much time to get into position and adjust to our attack. Murray needs to improve here, big time. On the occasions where we inevitably do have slow ball, we need options who can create space with very little themselves, or just power through the gain line.

It will be interesting to hear people's thoughts on how this can be achieved, what personnel changes should be made (if any) or even if people do not think it is a weakness at all and just a knee jerk reaction to the loss.

Gosh I can't wait to see who you blame....it should be hilarious

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_IJtVmUThY&spfreload=10 also refer to 4:20

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

So er..what did you think of Sexton when JD2 ran over him in the first half...and they say the top 14 is very physical. I am sure if we looked we could find every Irish player being run over once in a while. Maybe you should show the clips of earls clean breaks and attacking ability. Ut would be more relevant to the thread

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

Thats nonsense producing that video as evidence. I could produce videos of Earls handing off Cian Healy and Sexton and both of them are Lions, but I wouldn't be bothered.

Oh, and the Welsh try today was scored by Scott Williams with a step - he didn't run over anyone. I wonder would Roberts have run over Bowe to score that try?

ME-109 wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

So er..what did you think of Sexton when JD2 ran over him in the first half...and they say the top 14 is very physical. I am sure if we looked we could find every Irish player being run over once in a while. Maybe you should show the clips of earls clean breaks and attacking ability. Ut would be more relevant to the thread

Of course it's relevant to the thread. Earls was suggested as a possible solution to Ireland's attack and I'm arguing why he shouldn't be included. Even if you believe Sexton is actually a bad tackler (which we know is a load of hoopla), then you must agree that we can't afford to pick another one with Earls!

As I wrote earlier in the thread, he isn't physical enough to play against the brick walls of the first 50 minutes of test rugby. He makes breaks against the porous Rabo defences, but rarely has he shown that form internationally. Certainly not enough to warrant picking him at the expense of his weaknesses. Especially when you consider Ireland are often cited as a team lacking in size.

Hilarious..so having a backline all over 6foot is small. And you think Sexton getting run over is ok because it showed he was a good tackler but earls one is more telling for some odd reason...you seem like the bstard child of guns and asls ...ho ho

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

So er..what did you think of Sexton when JD2 ran over him in the first half...and they say the top 14 is very physical. I am sure if we looked we could find every Irish player being run over once in a while. Maybe you should show the clips of earls clean breaks and attacking ability. Ut would be more relevant to the thread

Of course it's relevant to the thread. Earls was suggested as a possible solution to Ireland's attack and I'm arguing why he shouldn't be included. Even if you believe Sexton is actually a bad tackler (which we know is a load of hoopla), then you must agree that we can't afford to pick another one with Earls!

As I wrote earlier in the thread, he isn't physical enough to play against the brick walls of the first 50 minutes of test rugby. He makes breaks against the porous Rabo defences, but rarely has he shown that form internationally. Certainly not enough to warrant picking him at the expense of his weaknesses. Especially when you consider Ireland are often cited as a team lacking in size.

So how do you explain his 3 international tries against Wales (and 2 wins?).

ME-109 wrote:Gosh I can't wait to see who you blame....it should be hilarious

Well, I have been patient with all you sensitive chaps (all Provinces included) who get very teary and indignant when your lads are pointed out as pretty damn 'normal' and 'bounceable'

Hey!!! We're normal is the moral of the day. We certainly play a brand of 'sub-normal'. Now let's see who needs a break?

ME-109 wrote:Hilarious..so having a backline all over 6foot is small. And you think Sexton getting run over is ok because it showed he was a good tackler but earls one is more telling for some odd reason...you aee like the bsraed child of guns and asls ...ho ho

So Earls in for Sexton?

Yeah...maybe. Debateable but an option. We'll see what we think next week when we do the sums for the Scottish game.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

Thats nonsense producing that video as evidence. I could produce videos of Earls handing off Cian Healy and Sexton and both of them are Lions, but I wouldn't be bothered.

It isn't. It is evidence of a lack of physicality, like it or not. There's also the instance of Tuilagi getting away from Earls prior to the 2011 world cup and scoring. He simply isn't a good tackler. Earls has had too many of those moments to label them as anomalies.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10  that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality

Thats nonsense producing that video as evidence. I could produce videos of Earls handing off Cian Healy and Sexton and both of them are Lions, but I wouldn't be bothered.

It isn't. It is evidence of a lack of physicality, like it or not. There's also the instance of Tuilagi getting away from Earls prior to the 2011 world cup and scoring. He simply isn't a good tackler. Earls has had too many of those moments to label them as anomalies.

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel going back to 2011. You think players don't improve their technique?

Well even if taking one example from three years ago shows earls to be a bad defender...he does score tries and makes breaks and does link very well with his wings...(its TRUE don't be fooled by your own propaganda) ..it would make a refreshing change. Especially as the Irish midfield have been extremely secure in terms of their tackle stats (look em up)

ME-109 wrote:Hilarious..so having a backline all over 6foot is small. And you think Sexton getting run over is ok because it showed he was a good tackler but earls one is more telling for some odd reason...you seem like the bstard child of guns and asls ...ho ho

Well we do lack physicality. Our gainline success rate has been poor. Height doesn't mean beef - look at "big" Dev Toner! As for the Earls misses, they are more telling because they're not uncommon! Sexton makes more big hits than he misses. He gets a pass.

I had posted weeks ago on 606 arguing with Sin against Earls playing for Ireland, citing his defensive issues before that game against Scarlets which I linked! I am not basing my argument off that - which Sin should know. But it serves to prove my point.

ME-109 - that clip isn't from 3 years ago it's from a couple of weeks back.

Edit - i see you're referring to the NZ game. ME-109 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10 this is recent. His technique hasn't improved much. Still too high.

Taylorman wrote:


With respect two months is not enough time to implement a new attack strategy that is capable of providing Ireland an alternative to beating top 3 or 4 sides. Was just reading a post Biltong posted warning of exactly this scenario after the SA win. I think Schmidt has over focussed on one trick and that has now come undone.

He's already got a team capable of beating every side bar NZ so he doesn't need to do a huge amount.The game today we used a very different style compared to what we used against England and France.We kicked far less and ran a lot more using mini plays to try to exploit the space around the ruck when the Welsh defense pushed out.It came close to working on a few occasions but our execution was just a little off.There isn't a huge amount of work to do to get it right imo.

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Hilarious..so having a backline all over 6foot is small. And you think Sexton getting run over is ok because it showed he was a good tackler but earls one is more telling for some odd reason...you seem like the bstard child of guns and asls ...ho ho

Well we do lack physicality. Our gainline success rate has been poor. Height doesn't mean beef - look at "big" Dev Toner! As for the Earls misses, they are more telling because they're not uncommon! Sexton makes more big hits than he misses. He gets a pass.

I had posted weeks ago on 606 arguing with Sin against Earls playing for Ireland, citing his defensive issues before that game against Scarlets which I linked! I am not basing my argument off that - which Sin should know. But it serves to prove my point.

ME-109 - that clip isn't from 3 years ago it's from a couple of weeks back.

Edit - i see you're referring to the NZ game. ME-109 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10 this is recent. His technique hasn't improved much. Still too high.

I just checked the last 6Ns that Earls played in 2012.

Keith Earls made 33 tackles missing 4.  Gordon D'Arcy made 22 missing 4.

You think Darce wasn't physical enough as well?

edit: I see POC missed 4 tackles today - should we drop him as well?

Hmm I don't think the attack is bad at all. We created 3-4 try scoring chances but took the wrong options a few times and got white line fever.

The attack noticeably sped up when Reddan came on but wouldn't make any changes for Scotland on the back of this game....probably just and off day for Sexton and Murray and few others.

You do wonder the difference BOD would have made though when the forwards were pummeling at the welsh line when there were massive overlaps out wide.

Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

rodders wrote:Hmm I don't think the attack is bad at all. We created 3-4 try scoring chances but took the wrong options a few times and got white line fever.

The attack noticeably sped up when Reddan came on but wouldn't make any changes for Scotland on the back of this game....probably just and off day for Sexton and Murray and few others.

You do wonder the difference BOD would have made though when the forwards were pummeling at the welsh line when there were massive overlaps out wide.

It was so good we scored how many tries thatwerent penalty tries? Just curious

Sin é wrote:
I just checked the last 6Ns that Earls played in 2012.

Keith Earls made 33 tackles missing 4.  Gordon D'Arcy made 22 missing 4.

You think Darce wasn't physical enough as well?

Probably not.

You can only be as physical as your body will allow you to be.  
People keep thinking the Irish fantasy doesn't require that fact but it does.  
If you want to play a ruthlessly physical game, you have to have players conditioned up to the physicality required.  Ireland are still in the halfway house of one game maybe, two games stretching it, three games getting tired now, four games might get beat up here.

We're still there - like we've always been.  Schmidt tactics just disguised it for a while.  The Welsh boys were eating the arses off us in the physicality stakes.  And I doubt if either Earls or D'Arcy would have offered a reprieve.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Hilarious..so having a backline all over 6foot is small. And you think Sexton getting run over is ok because it showed he was a good tackler but earls one is more telling for some odd reason...you seem like the bstard child of guns and asls ...ho ho

Well we do lack physicality. Our gainline success rate has been poor. Height doesn't mean beef - look at "big" Dev Toner! As for the Earls misses, they are more telling because they're not uncommon! Sexton makes more big hits than he misses. He gets a pass.

I had posted weeks ago on 606 arguing with Sin against Earls playing for Ireland, citing his defensive issues before that game against Scarlets which I linked! I am not basing my argument off that - which Sin should know. But it serves to prove my point.

ME-109 - that clip isn't from 3 years ago it's from a couple of weeks back.

Edit - i see you're referring to the NZ game. ME-109 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10 this is recent. His technique hasn't improved much. Still too high.

I just checked the last 6Ns that Earls played in 2012.

Keith Earls made 33 tackles missing 4.  Gordon D'Arcy made 22 missing 4.

You think Darce wasn't physical enough as well?

No THAT's not relevant to the thread D'arce is old news - and I actually did think he wasn't physical enough to play under Kidney. Which I noted on this website, or it could have been the old one, in one of my first ever posts!

Regardless, you must remember we had the same discussion a few weeks ago. I felt obliged to post the Earls video triumphantly after it occurred. I think most people, not tainted by the insatiable resolve of a Munsterman would agree that his physicality isn't up to par for the modern game.

Sure that's pretty much the reason for Joe's kicking game. No holes in defences any more. You need to be able to bash it up.

So you really don't think sexton is up to it...

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:Hmm I don't think the attack is bad at all. We created 3-4 try scoring chances but took the wrong options a few times and got white line fever.

The attack noticeably sped up when Reddan came on but wouldn't make any changes for Scotland on the back of this game....probably just and off day for Sexton and Murray and few others.

You do wonder the difference BOD would have made though when the forwards were pummeling at the welsh line when there were massive overlaps out wide.

It was so good we scored how many tries thatwerent penalty tries? Just curious

Bowe would have scored but for a great tackle by Williams.

The Healy knock on was a farce - Zebo, Payne and Bowe are all unmarked out wide calling for the ball but no one looks up.

Best botched up a few line outs close to the line and then only Barnes knows what was going on at the end when he awards a scrum to Wales with the maul collapsed heading towards the Welsh line and then penalises the dominant Irish scrum.

I'd say we had plenty of chances to score...just lots of wrong options and individual mistakes cost us...and great defence by Wales...these things happen...

Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

ME-109 wrote:Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

I have given 3 examples of bad misses. 2 of which Earls didn't even seem to break the stride of the attacker.

This tournament has shown defence is more important than attack nowadays. Unless the rules change to favour attack, defensive frailties will outweigh attacking ability. I would agree that Earls is one of the best attacking centres we have when given space. I just don't think test rugby involves space anymore. You may get lucky every now and then, but in most games it's been at a premium.

Sin é wrote:Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

The game actually reminded me of a leinster/ospreys game...with a similar outcome

Sin é wrote:Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

ah here. He's running backwards trying to position himself when Earls does it. It isn't a head on tackle.

Agreed Re Schimdt - Ospreys were his bogey team.

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

I have given 3 examples of bad misses. 2 of which Earls didn't even seem to break the stride of the attacker.

This tournament has shown defence is more important than attack nowadays. Unless the rules change to favour attack, defensive frailties will outweigh attacking ability. I would agree that Earls is one of the best attacking centres we have when given space. I just don't think test rugby involves space anymore. You may get lucky every now and then, but in most games it's been at a premium.

You haven't answered the question concerning sexton. Based on your analysis sexton should not be playing international rugby. He missed one howler today and there have been a couple of other ocassions when he got run over in the last few years. So clearly he is not capable to defend the 10 channel based on your analysis..or does it only hold for earls?

Sin é wrote:Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

The only 2 things I take from that video is that Earl's never passes the ball and whoever made it has awful taste in music....

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:Hmm I don't think the attack is bad at all. We created 3-4 try scoring chances but took the wrong options a few times and got white line fever.

The attack noticeably sped up when Reddan came on but wouldn't make any changes for Scotland on the back of this game....probably just and off day for Sexton and Murray and few others.

You do wonder the difference BOD would have made though when the forwards were pummeling at the welsh line when there were massive overlaps out wide.

It was so good we scored how many tries thatwerent penalty tries? Just curious

Bowe would have scored but for a great tackle by Williams.

The Healy knock on was a farce - Zebo, Payne and Bowe are all unmarked out wide calling for the ball but no one looks up.

Best botched up a few line outs close to the line and then only Barnes knows what was going on at the end when he awards a scrum to Wales with the maul collapsed heading towards the Welsh line and then penalises the dominant Irish scrum.

I'd say we had plenty of chances to score...just lots of wrong options and individual mistakes cost us...and great defence by Wales...these things happen...  

rodders wrote:

Bowe would have scored but for a great tackle by Williams.

The Healy knock on was a farce - Zebo, Payne and Bowe are all unmarked out wide calling for the ball but no one looks up.

Best botched up a few line outs close to the line and then only Barnes knows what was going on at the end when he awards a scrum to Wales with the maul collapsed heading towards the Welsh line and then penalises the dominant Irish scrum.

I'd say we had plenty of chances to score...just lots of wrong options and individual mistakes cost us...and great defence by Wales...these things happen...  

Yes, the absolute mistake riddled shyte we played was ample evidence that there is still something there to work for with Schmidt and the boys.... given the scoreline.  Wales should have driven us into the ground playing at the tempo they played but didn't.

So far so good then.  

But absolutely not good enough from here on in.  Continually struggling over the line and then trying to heroically "hold out" has had its day. The drills on that shyte is overdone. And whilst most fans were thinking we were fantastic whilst playing it, and that the nervy 'holding out' phases at the end were 'very comfortable' is just bullschit rugby both for the 6N and whatever is coming in the WC.
We were more dynamic last year (not greatly so but enough that it counted) and it paid dividends.  This overly-cautious stuff we're playing now is becoming counter-productive.  Time now to add to the mix in a genuine way that doesn't included backs collecting static ball, taking three slow steps and crashing into the nearest opponent they see.  Christ, the Irish players were giving the Welsh guys their 'impressive' tackling stats on a plate.  They didn't even have to move.  The Irish players came to them willingly.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

The only 2 things I take from that video is that Earl's never passes the ball and whoever made it has awful taste in music....  

Its his highlights which usually contains tries being scored. If you want to see him passing, have a look at Zebo's highlights.

Sin é wrote:

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ...

What do you mean? Why?

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

ah here. He's running backwards trying to position himself when Earls does it. It isn't a head on tackle.

Agreed Re Schimdt - Ospreys were his bogey team.

Excuses, excuses! I presume you recall his handoff of Sexton & Healy - whats the excuse there?

ME-109 wrote:

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

I have given 3 examples of bad misses. 2 of which Earls didn't even seem to break the stride of the attacker.

This tournament has shown defence is more important than attack nowadays. Unless the rules change to favour attack, defensive frailties will outweigh attacking ability. I would agree that Earls is one of the best attacking centres we have when given space. I just don't think test rugby involves space anymore. You may get lucky every now and then, but in most games it's been at a premium.

You haven't answered the question concerning sexton. Based on your analysis sexton should not be playing international rugby. He missed one howler today and there have been a couple of other ocassions when he got run over in the last few years. So clearly he is not capable to defend the 10 channel based on your analysis..or does it only hold for earls?

I have given 3 examples that we all know. Give me 2 more examples of Sexton missing as badly. I'll give 2 recent examples of Sexton's defence off the top of my head - 1) the George Ford Hit, 2) his first tackle v France to set up a choke tackle on Basteraud.

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Gosh I can't wait to see who you blame....it should be hilarious

Well, I have been patient with all you sensitive chaps (all Provinces included) who get very teary and indignant when your lads are pointed out as pretty damn 'normal' and 'bounceable'

Hey!!!  We're normal is the moral of the day.  We certainly play a brand of 'sub-normal'.  Now let's see who needs a break?

I'm genuinely interested to hear who you are going to pinpoint. Do I have to wait a week?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ...

What do you mean?  Why?

Its their trademark - huge, physical backs and the rush defence. Mind you, they picked up a few injuries today!

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:Go to 58 secs on this video and watch Earls flatten a Welsh player here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ... luckily they are not in our group. Hopefully Schmidt will come up with something (though I doubt it, the Ospreys usually beat Leinster up as well).

ah here. He's running backwards trying to position himself when Earls does it. It isn't a head on tackle.

Agreed Re Schimdt - Ospreys were his bogey team.

Excuses, excuses! I presume you recall his handoff of Sexton & Healy - whats the excuse there?

I genuinely can't! From what I think I remember, the hand off v Healy wasn't a straight on tackle, but more a case of Earls getting away from him and burning him for pace - which I don't dispute he's good at. Can't remember the Sexton one at all.

The only bright spot in attack for us today was Jared Payne at 13. In fact, for me he was the only player in the team to really play well. He was good on the switch, made half-breaks, made yards and was the only back out there who showed good hands. I think the people who doubted him as a 13 will be feeling pretty silly after todays game- if we can get him and Henshaw more space they can do damage for sure

I think the problem is our lack of ball carriers in the forwards and in the backs as well to a certain extent. We just aren't getting any front foot ball. We play quite a structured game and because we are not able to create overlaps we constantly cut back inside which is the smart thing to do, because forcing it on the outside will result in more turnovers. But we get stopped on the gain line every time! The point is, we need to make yards in contact or we can't break down defences. Thats the bottom line. Right now we are not able to recycle the ball faster than the defence can get organised. There's nothing you can do at this level against an organised defence, the only way is to get the ball through the phases faster than we are right now and that can only happen if we cross the gain line. Until we start winning the collisions and putting pressure on teams, the gaps simply won't appear. We'll be running into brick walls until we start crossing the gain line.

I think to improve our attack, we're going to need our forwards to offload the ball more- for forwards to take the ball into contact and then offload to people running hard angles off them. But I think it will always be difficult for us to be a good attacking team given the physical profile of our pack.

I might consider Dan Tuohy for Devin Toner as he's got a better offloading game as they only change we can make to realistically improve our attack. The other idea I would have is moving Zebo to 15 and Earls to the wing. I think Payne has nailed down the 13 shirt now- just wish we could get him and Henshaw more space to operate in.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Bowe would have scored but for a great tackle by Williams.

The Healy knock on was a farce - Zebo, Payne and Bowe are all unmarked out wide calling for the ball but no one looks up.

Best botched up a few line outs close to the line and then only Barnes knows what was going on at the end when he awards a scrum to Wales with the maul collapsed heading towards the Welsh line and then penalises the dominant Irish scrum.

I'd say we had plenty of chances to score...just lots of wrong options and individual mistakes cost us...and great defence by Wales...these things happen...  

Yes, the absolute mistake riddled shyte we played was ample evidence that there is still something there to work for with Schmidt and the boys.... given the scoreline.  Wales should have driven us into the ground playing at the tempo they played but didn't.

So far so good then.  

But absolutely not good enough from here on in.  Continually struggling over the line and then trying to heroically "hold out" has had its day.  The drills on that shyte is overdone. And whilst most fans were thinking we were fantastic whilst playing it, and that the nervy 'holding out' phases at the end were 'very comfortable' is just bullschit rugby both for the 6N and whatever is coming in the WC.
We were more dynamic last year (not greatly so but enough that it counted) and it paid dividends.  This overly-cautious stuff we're playing now is becoming counter-productive.  Time now to add to the mix in a genuine way that doesn't included backs collecting static ball, taking three slow steps and crashing into the nearest opponent they see.  Christ, the Irish players were giving the Welsh guys their 'impressive' tackling stats on a plate.  They didn't even have to move.  The Irish players came to them willingly.

Fly -

Notch wrote:The only bright spot in attack for us today was Jared Payne at 13. In fact, for me he was the only player in the team to really play well. He was good on the switch, made half-breaks, made yards and was the only back out there who showed good hands. I think the people who doubted him as a 13 will be feeling pretty silly after todays game- if we can get him and Henshaw more space they can do damage for sure

I think the problem is our lack of ball carriers in the forwards and in the backs as well to a certain extent. We just aren't getting any front foot ball. We play quite a structured game and because we are not able to create overlaps we constantly cut back inside which is the smart thing to do, because forcing it on the outside will result in more turnovers. But we get stopped on the gain line every time! The point is, we need to make yards in contact or we can't break down defences. Thats the bottom line. Right now we are not able to recycle the ball faster than the defence can get organised. There's nothing you can do at this level against an organised defence, the only way is to get the ball through the phases faster than we are right now and that can only happen if we cross the gain line.

I think to improve our attack, we're going to need our forwards to offload the ball more- for forwards to take the ball into contact and then offload to people running hard angles off them. But it will be difficult for us to be a good attacking team given the physical profile of our pack.

I might consider Dan Tuohy for Devin Toner as he's got a better offloading game as they only change we can make to realistically improve our attack. The other idea I would have is moving Zebo to 15 and Earls to the wing. I think Payne has nailed down the 13 shirt now- just wish we could get him and Henshaw more space to operate in.

Payne played very well at 13 today - but I don't feel silly. What I do realise is that our back line hasn't clicked and that one good performance from one of our backs doesn't undo the previous 3 games this championship. No, I think that is a very simplistic view of things.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Bowe would have scored but for a great tackle by Williams.

The Healy knock on was a farce - Zebo, Payne and Bowe are all unmarked out wide calling for the ball but no one looks up.

Best botched up a few line outs close to the line and then only Barnes knows what was going on at the end when he awards a scrum to Wales with the maul collapsed heading towards the Welsh line and then penalises the dominant Irish scrum.

I'd say we had plenty of chances to score...just lots of wrong options and individual mistakes cost us...and great defence by Wales...these things happen...  

Yes, the absolute mistake riddled shyte we played was ample evidence that there is still something there to work for with Schmidt and the boys.... given the scoreline.  Wales should have driven us into the ground playing at the tempo they played but didn't.

So far so good then.  

But absolutely not good enough from here on in.  Continually struggling over the line and then trying to heroically "hold out" has had its day.  The drills on that shyte is overdone. And whilst most fans were thinking we were fantastic whilst playing it, and that the nervy 'holding out' phases at the end were 'very comfortable' is just bullschit rugby both for the 6N and whatever is coming in the WC.
We were more dynamic last year (not greatly so but enough that it counted) and it paid dividends.  This overly-cautious stuff we're playing now is becoming counter-productive.  Time now to add to the mix in a genuine way that doesn't included backs collecting static ball, taking three slow steps and crashing into the nearest opponent they see.  Christ, the Irish players were giving the Welsh guys their 'impressive' tackling stats on a plate.  They didn't even have to move.  The Irish players came to them willingly.

I don't accept we are playing Poopie rugby - I think there is a lot of innovation there in what we are trying to do but there are new combinations in midfield and some go to guys in the past aren't quite 100% due to injuries and lack of gametime(Healy, SOB, Bowe, Sexton). People need a bit more perspective and patience - this is the most consistent run of results and performances maybe we've ever seen.

If I was Schmidt I'd clear off back to the SH where they appreciate the nuances of game because the negativity and BS around the performances must be pretty demoralizing.

This Welsh side are 4 time winners and many Lions test players, they aren't mugs and not easy to beat at home.

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

I have given 3 examples of bad misses. 2 of which Earls didn't even seem to break the stride of the attacker.

This tournament has shown defence is more important than attack nowadays. Unless the rules change to favour attack, defensive frailties will outweigh attacking ability. I would agree that Earls is one of the best attacking centres we have when given space. I just don't think test rugby involves space anymore. You may get lucky every now and then, but in most games it's been at a premium.

You haven't answered the question concerning sexton. Based on your analysis sexton should not be playing international rugby. He missed one howler today and there have been a couple of other ocassions when he got run over in the last few years. So clearly he is not capable to defend the 10 channel based on your analysis..or does it only hold for earls?

I have given 3 examples that we all know. Give me 2 more examples of Sexton missing as badly. I'll give 2 recent examples of Sexton's defence off the top of my head - 1) the George Ford Hit, 2)  his first tackle v France to set up a choke tackle on Basteraud.  

A missed tackle, is a missed tackle. Sexton missed 3 today. Kearney missed 2 (only making 3)! POC missed 4 (making 4).
Sexton also missed 2 against England and Kearney also missed 2 (making 3).

The team seem very willing to carry Kearney's poor defence

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

I have given 3 examples of bad misses. 2 of which Earls didn't even seem to break the stride of the attacker.

This tournament has shown defence is more important than attack nowadays. Unless the rules change to favour attack, defensive frailties will outweigh attacking ability. I would agree that Earls is one of the best attacking centres we have when given space. I just don't think test rugby involves space anymore. You may get lucky every now and then, but in most games it's been at a premium.

You haven't answered the question concerning sexton. Based on your analysis sexton should not be playing international rugby. He missed one howler today and there have been a couple of other ocassions when he got run over in the last few years. So clearly he is not capable to defend the 10 channel based on your analysis..or does it only hold for earls?

I have given 3 examples that we all know. Give me 2 more examples of Sexton missing as badly. I'll give 2 recent examples of Sexton's defence off the top of my head - 1) the George Ford Hit, 2)  his first tackle v France to set up a choke tackle on Basteraud.  

Very good I am sure I could give you a few examples as sin e did On earls tackling. I am just curious as to why sextons miss today doesn't count in your analysis

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:The only bright spot in attack for us today was Jared Payne at 13. In fact, for me he was the only player in the team to really play well. He was good on the switch, made half-breaks, made yards and was the only back out there who showed good hands. I think the people who doubted him as a 13 will be feeling pretty silly after todays game- if we can get him and Henshaw more space they can do damage for sure

I think the problem is our lack of ball carriers in the forwards and in the backs as well to a certain extent. We just aren't getting any front foot ball. We play quite a structured game and because we are not able to create overlaps we constantly cut back inside which is the smart thing to do, because forcing it on the outside will result in more turnovers. But we get stopped on the gain line every time! The point is, we need to make yards in contact or we can't break down defences. Thats the bottom line. Right now we are not able to recycle the ball faster than the defence can get organised. There's nothing you can do at this level against an organised defence, the only way is to get the ball through the phases faster than we are right now and that can only happen if we cross the gain line.

I think to improve our attack, we're going to need our forwards to offload the ball more- for forwards to take the ball into contact and then offload to people running hard angles off them. But it will be difficult for us to be a good attacking team given the physical profile of our pack.

I might consider Dan Tuohy for Devin Toner as he's got a better offloading game as they only change we can make to realistically improve our attack. The other idea I would have is moving Zebo to 15 and Earls to the wing. I think Payne has nailed down the 13 shirt now- just wish we could get him and Henshaw more space to operate in.

Payne played very well at 13 today - but I don't feel silly. What I do realise is that our back line hasn't clicked and that one good performance from one of our backs doesn't undo the previous 3 games this championship. No, I think that is a very simplistic view of things.

He's been getting better and better every game. But until the backs aren't crashing up slow ball we're not going to see them 'click'. Them 'clicking' is more about forwards winning gain lines than anything else. The All Blacks, Wallabies... any team that is known for scoring tries do so because they give their backs very quick ball. I wouldn't have a single word of blame for anyone wearing 11-15 in terms of our attack. Not one word of criticism. Our problem is a lack of ball carriers.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ...

What do you mean?  Why?

Its their trademark - huge, physical backs and the rush defence. Mind you, they picked up a few injuries today!

No Sin, not enough.  They are conditioned to those levels.  Neither Warburton nor Halfpenny nor even North are trademark anything - they're created in a meaner spirited environment than it seems Ireland ever wants to mimic.

You don't look at physicality knocking you pretty much out of a game and automatically think 'we'll shaft them with kicks'.  This is world rugby, I'm blue in the face saying we ain't the ABs, we don't have the handling skills or space finding instincts or natural pace to break down teams creatively.  That's why ABs can afford to go less full on on the conditioning - they have other skills that protect them and impede the opposition.
We always seem to revert to a more physical game because basically it's our only hope.  And in a sense, Schmidt has brought us back to square one again - physical collision gameplay winning out over brains and evasion.

BUT...if you need that game and insist on playing it, you need the conditioning to go with it.  If Wales is the benchmark - and you seem to suggest it is, then that's where our players have to go. They ain't there.

I think people should watch some super rugby - some of the attacking rugby from the ozzie sides in particular would make you weep in despair.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

kunu wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Run that in comparison to Sexton today and let me know where the most damage was done in relation to each game. Your example is spurious..at best ..try showing some exciting centre attacking play now. Bet you won't find any besides earls in the recent past...

I have given 3 examples of bad misses. 2 of which Earls didn't even seem to break the stride of the attacker.

This tournament has shown defence is more important than attack nowadays. Unless the rules change to favour attack, defensive frailties will outweigh attacking ability. I would agree that Earls is one of the best attacking centres we have when given space. I just don't think test rugby involves space anymore. You may get lucky every now and then, but in most games it's been at a premium.

You haven't answered the question concerning sexton. Based on your analysis sexton should not be playing international rugby. He missed one howler today and there have been a couple of other ocassions when he got run over in the last few years. So clearly he is not capable to defend the 10 channel based on your analysis..or does it only hold for earls?

I have given 3 examples that we all know. Give me 2 more examples of Sexton missing as badly. I'll give 2 recent examples of Sexton's defence off the top of my head - 1) the George Ford Hit, 2)  his first tackle v France to set up a choke tackle on Basteraud.  

A missed tackle, is a missed tackle. Sexton missed 3 today. Kearney missed 2 (only making 3)! POC missed 4 (making 4).
Sexton also missed 2 against England and Kearney also missed 2 (making 3).

The team seem very willing to carry Kearney's poor defence

Sin I'll leave it there! I am no Earls fan, but I think Schmidt thinks he's good. I'll happily be proven wrong if he puts in a few good performances for us any time soon. I just wouldn't pick him myself. Good eve.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Wales are fairly unique with their physicality ...

What do you mean?  Why?

Its their trademark - huge, physical backs and the rush defence. Mind you, they picked up a few injuries today!

No Sin, not enough.  They are conditioned to those levels.  Neither Warburton nor Halfpenny nor even North are trademark anything - they're created in a meaner spirited environment than it seems Ireland ever wants to mimic.

You don't look at physicality knocking you pretty much out of a game and automatically think 'we'll shaft them with kicks'.  This is world rugby, I'm blue in the face saying we ain't the ABs, we don't have the handling skills or space finding instincts or natural pace to break down teams creatively.  That's why ABs can afford to go less full on on the conditioning - they have other skills that protect them and impede the opposition.
We always seem to revert to a more physical game because basically it's our only hope.  And in a sense, Schmidt has brought us back to square one again - physical collision gameplay winning out over brains and evasion.

BUT...if you need that game and insist on playing it, you need the conditioning to go with it.  If Wales is the benchmark - and you seem to suggest it is, then that's where our players have to go.  They ain't there.

The SH teams are not as big into defence as the NH teams. They concentrate on scoring tries. Thats why the SH teams always beat Wales.

If a lack of ball carriers is the main issue with the team, then drop one of Henshaw/Payne and bring in McCloskey (he does a much better job as a battering ram). However I would rather see us rely on more creative rugby, than a mark II Bigger-Roberts-Davies axis. Wales will always outdo us in the physicality department. I guess McCloskey is the closest we have to that sort of player though.

I do agree we need more gain-line breakers in the forwards to generate momentum. The question is who do we have to do this? Healy is a cert if he is 100 percent fit. Cronin and Henderson help as well, but they would be replacing some very big names.. could Ruddock help on his return?

rodders wrote:

I don't accept we are playing Poopie rugby - I think there is a lot of innovation there.

There was a lot of crap, rodders.  If innovation was in there it was smothered by crap.  Let's not colour it any other way.  I say again, the dicey wins to date with the late late by-the-seat-of-you-pants holdouts are not innovative, it's dicey rugby that needs more.  

I said on this thread or on another one a little while ago that I'm ok with that game today against Wales, because I truly believe our coaches can't be so blind as to ignore the limitations of how we manage things so far.  So, I'm confident - I hope not fooled - that this 6N is a campaign to work on a limited bag of tricks that is not the full bag.  
I have to believe that because I believe Schmidt is a calculating coach.  But the time for practicing a more fuller variety pack game WITH GENUINE TEETH is upon us.  Five or six games left to WC, that is all.  We saw how rusty the players were in even attempting something more fluid than the last few games.  Handling errors and mixed messages all over the place.  The Kick Chase needs to be banked and something else brought to this circus.