Wales will not get out of World Cup Group - Robinson

by GavinDragon Mon 16 Mar 2015, 1:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31900566

by Poorfour Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:36 am

By the way, what's the word on Samson Lee? It looked like a nasty injury and one that could keep him out for some time. I would say Wales's chances are quite badly dented by his absence, even if Adam Jones returns

by TJ Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:36 am

beshocked wrote:quinsforever you say England have improved. I don't think they have.

...................... England only pulled away from Scotland very late on the match..

I am a Scots fan. England never looked in trouble against Scotland and were by far the better team. Scotloand ran the other teams who beat them close. England were conmfortably better if wasteful

by **LondonTiger** Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:37 am

So far I think England were better against France and Scotland than they were last year and the same against Italy.

Against Ireland we were slightly worse, they were slightly better and they had home advantage.

Overall I think we have improved slightly - but over the last four years perhaps not by as much as we should, and the problem is in the backs.

At SH Care and Youngs have fallen in and out of form, and have missed matches because of either injury or discipline.

At FH we spent 3 years developing Owen Farrell (who remember looked pretty good with the Lions) and then he got broke. Ford was 17 when Lancaster took over.

In the centres Barritt and Tuilagi would have been first choice pretty much throughout, but injuries kiboshed that and we have seen so many permutations. Burrell was merely making up numbers at Sale in Bomber's first season while JJ has had two rather poor seasons at club level during his tenure and is still young.

On the wing we have chopped and changed as players have fallen in and out of form. The current wingers Nowell and Watson were 17 and 16 when Lancaster took the reins.

It is not doom and gloom, but we have not progressed anywhere near as fast as I would have liked.

by beshocked Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:37 am

Jimpy I will concede that perhaps trounce is the wrong word to use - but Ireland did comfortably beat England.

England scored 38 points vs Scotland in 2013. 42 points in 2007, 43 in 2005.

If we are talking about margin then in 2001 and 2003.

Of course all at Twickenham. A stuffing was more likely than a Scotland win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Scotland

Scotland improved? No they are not - no wins is not an improvement. They lost to Italy at home. They are bottom of the 6 nations because they are currently the weakest side in the competition.

England could have and should have thrashed Scotland. It was a very frustating performance from England.

Scotland should be an improved team but it's another false dawn. Cotter has shown himself so far to be just as clueless as other Scottish coaches.

by beshocked Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:43 am

: Londontiger England haven't played France yet.

Funnily enough England beat both Italy and Scotland by a bigger margin last season - managing to 0 Scotland. Beat Wales by a bigger margin than this year.

England beat Ireland last season too....

by Jimpy Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:49 am

beshocked wrote:Jimpy I will concede that perhaps trounce is the wrong word to use - but Ireland did comfortably beat England.

England scored 38 points vs Scotland in 2013. 42 points in 2007, 43 in 2005.

If we are talking about margin then in 2001 and 2003.

Of course all at Twickenham. A stuffing was more likely than a Scotland win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Scotland

Scotland improved? No they are not - no wins is not an improvement. They lost to Italy at home. They are bottom of the 6 nations because they are currently the weakest side in the competition.

England could have and should have thrashed Scotland. It was a very frustating performance from England.

Scotland should be an improved team but it's another false dawn. Cotter has shown himself so far to be just as clueless as other Scottish coaches.

We're getting there.

Yes, England were beaten comfortably by Ireland. Another 5 minutes in that match though would, I believe have seen England recover sufficiently to have drawn or even won it. Irrelevant now.

England beat Scotland comfortably, but left a lot of points on the field. That is frustrating but it happens. Overall, England have made progress, but it is slower than some may hope.

Scotland showed that they are much improved in terms of their overall game from last 6N. They gave the AB a scare last Autumn, for example. They haven't been 'trounced' by anyone this year either, they run everyone pretty close. It remains to be seen whether they really are the worst team in the competition - Scotland would comfortably have beaten the Italian side that turned out in Rome last weekend (do you REALLY think this French side is 29 points better than Italy at present?). Unfortunately, the Italian side that turned up against Scotland was altogether more 'animated'. I would still say Italy are the weakest side in the competition.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:50 am

beshocked wrote:: Londontiger England haven't played France yet.

Funnily enough England beat both Italy and Scotland by a bigger margin last season - managing to 0 Scotland. Beat Wales by a bigger margin than this year.

England beat Ireland last season too....

And I will reserve judgement till we play France. Winning margin against Scotland and Italy may have been lower - but I feel Scotland are a much better side than last year and our performance was better.

As I said I feel we were slightly worse this year and Ireland slightly better. Last season if we the match had been in dublin we woudl probably have lost.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:51 am

Stats can only tell you so much. We ve improved in some areas struggled in others only to be expected really given the injuries and players being chopped and changed.

by beshocked Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:08 am

Jimpy can't rely on Sexton to be injured or have an off day.

I wouldn't say Scotland are much better than last year when they have 0 wins.

Scotland might have beaten that Italy team but it's ifs and buts. We know they lost to Italy at Murrayfield.

Londontiger remember that when we played Scotland last year it was appalling conditions at Murrayfield which quite clearly hampered the ability to rack up a higher points difference. In contrast this England side were playing Scotland at Twickenham (where Scotland's confidence is rock bottom and haven't beaten England there in over 30 years!)

Scotland can say they are improving but till they win matches, they aren't exactly moving forward.

Scotland gave a 2nd string NZ a good game but still lost by 8 points which is obviously more than a converted try.

Any way back to the topic -if Wales believe they can beat England and Australia and show this with the right amount of intensity then they have a good chance of qualifying for the quarter finals. As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

by lostinwales Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:15 am

beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

by SecretFly Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:18 am

Wales always do take time to warm up though.

by SecretFly Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:19 am

Problem for some of us that we use the Championship the other way round, damn it!

by beshocked Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:25 am

lostinwales the important word is CURRENT. I am saying that Wales in my opinion are currently in better form.

Secretfly you are right. Wales do take some time to warm up.

Fortunately for Wales their 2nd match is vs England and their 4th vs Australia which gives them sufficient breathing space from both games and a bit of warm up practice.

Australia will be playing England and Wales in consecutive matches, England will be playing Wales and Australia in consecutive matches too.

Advantage Wales you would think.

by Jimpy Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:53 am

beshocked wrote:lostinwales the important word is CURRENT. I am saying that Wales in my opinion are currently in better form.

Secretfly you are right. Wales do take some time to warm up.

Fortunately for Wales their 2nd match is vs England and their 4th vs Australia which gives them sufficient breathing space from both games and a bit of warm up practice.

Australia will be playing England and Wales in consecutive matches, England will be playing Wales and Australia in consecutive matches too.

Advantage Wales you would think.

Nope, England are marginally now (based on a points difference unlikely to be overhauled) and definitely will be by then, the better team.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 17 Mar 2015, 11:18 am

beshocked wrote:lostinwales the important word is CURRENT. I am saying that Wales in my opinion are currently in better form.

What have Wales done to justify that claim? Struggled past France and Scotland and beat Ireland with a phenomenal defensive display.

With 10 scrums, 15 lineouts and 11 kicks at goal we probably saw just 40 minutes with the ball in play. Wales had possession for 36% of the time, so 15 minutes. that means 250 tackles in 25 minutes of play, 10 tackles every single minute, kick the ball away have a quick breather then start again. Truly incredible - but repeatable? Ireland should be feeling pretty sick. Unlike England in 2011/13 when the opposition blew us away, Ireland had the winning of that game and in the face of the Welsh defiance (Have the Welsh been so over-run since Rourke's Drift?) they choked.

by SecretFly Tue 17 Mar 2015, 11:31 am

We did choke.... but not enough Welsh were choked to get us over the line. We must try better next time.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Mar 2015, 11:57 am

lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

by Comfort Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:08 pm

Wales, condemened for not scoring enough tries, but the difference at the weekend against Ireland..... Wales being clinical in their brief possession and Scott Williams scything through to score, something Ireland failed to do with all their possession....

Also gotta mention, the breakdown was a mess, thought it cleared up in the second half (apparently waving your arms about and rolling a bit more than you had been doing is enough to show Barnes you;re making every effort to get ~~in the scrumhalfs~~ out of the way). Any other day, the ref wouldn't have yellow carded Warburton and Wales would have won another 3 turnovers (which on the day were 3 shots at goal from memory? & the aforementioned yellow card)....

Anyway, I digress, as for 'current' form, I'd be a lot more confident about Wales vs England should it be taking place this wknd than when it did a few weeks back. Wales have undoubtedly improved (mentally, fitness wise and defensively) and England haven't imo.

I can understand what Robinson's saying completely, and at the moment I'd say hes probably got it about right. But, I think we'll see another strong Wales performance at the world cup, the longer Wales are with Gatland/Edwards they improve, as has been mentioned countless times.

by SecretFly Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:19 pm

Comfort wrote: Any other day, the ref wouldn't have yellow carded Warburton and Wales would have won another 3 turnovers (which on the day were 3 shots at goal from memory? & the aforementioned yellow card)....

Any other day, and ref, and Wales wouldn't have had the 12 point start Wink

But I digress too.

by Comfort Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:29 pm

Potato Potarto Fly Smile

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:33 pm

Hakuna matata, Comfort.

by Jimpy Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:40 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:42 pm

I doubt anyone in the England camp considers it a comfortable victory.

by maestegmafia Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:42 pm

Comfort wrote:Wales, condemened for not scoring enough tries, but the difference at the weekend against Ireland..... Wales being clinical in their brief possession and Scott Williams scything through to score, something Ireland failed to do with all their possession....

Also gotta mention, the breakdown was a mess, thought it cleared up in the second half (apparently waving your arms about and rolling a bit more than you had been doing is enough to show Barnes you;re making every effort to get ~~in the scrumhalfs~~ out of the way). Any other day, the ref wouldn't have yellow carded Warburton and Wales would have won another 3 turnovers (which on the day were 3 shots at goal from memory? & the aforementioned yellow card)....

Anyway, I digress, as for 'current' form, I'd be a lot more confident about Wales vs England should it be taking place this wknd than when it did a few weeks back. Wales have undoubtedly improved (mentally, fitness wise and defensively) and England haven't imo.

I can understand what Robinson's saying completely, and at the moment I'd say hes probably got it about right. But, I think we'll see another strong Wales performance at the world cup, the longer Wales are with Gatland/Edwards they improve, as has been mentioned countless times.

Inclined to agree.

When Heeley dropped the ball it should have gone wide as Wales were outnumbered. That was where Ireland lost the game.

The red was an idiot but his calls have little advantage to either side, bar the two yellow cards Wales received that Ireland could have conceded in other areas...

With regards to the group. Wales are in good form at the moment. If fitness and form improves for the squad I think they can handle anyone they meet.

At the moment it's just a forty minute blip against England that means we are missing fighting for a grand slam right now.

Time will tell.

Robinson comes from an era where Wales were not as competitive as england. Guys like him often never move forward.

by Gooseberry Tue 17 Mar 2015, 12:52 pm

Comfort wrote:Wales, condemened for not scoring enough tries, but the difference at the weekend against Ireland..... Wales being clinical in their brief possession and Scott Williams scything through to score, something Ireland failed to do with all their possession....

Also gotta mention, the breakdown was a mess, thought it cleared up in the second half (apparently waving your arms about and rolling a bit more than you had been doing is enough to show Barnes you;re making every effort to get ~~in the scrumhalfs~~ out of the way). Any other day, the ref wouldn't have yellow carded Warburton and Wales would have won another 3 turnovers (which on the day were 3 shots at goal from memory? & the aforementioned yellow card)....

Anyway, I digress, as for 'current' form, I'd be a lot more confident about Wales vs England should it be taking place this wknd than when it did a few weeks back. Wales have undoubtedly improved (mentally, fitness wise and defensively) and England haven't imo.

I can understand what Robinson's saying completely, and at the moment I'd say hes probably got it about right. But, I think we'll see another strong Wales performance at the world cup, the longer Wales are with Gatland/Edwards they improve, as has been mentioned countless times.

Just a quick point...one side had more than twice as many rucks to defend as the other, if anyone got away with rolling around on the wrong side its pretty clear which team that was, the one that also didnt get carded for cynically pulling down a maul on the try line.

Bleat all you want, Wales did well to come away with a victory in the end but were within a few minutes of getting steam rolled into oblivion. Hell of a defensive performance and the tackling and workrate of some forwards was amongst the best I hve ever seen. Wales clearly do have some ability in attack, the Scott Williams try showed that. Theyve got the best goal kicker in the tournament, and pretty good back up in Biggar and Preistland.
Theres a lot of good in Wales, but their inability to win and keep the ball as the game wore on has to be a worry, even more so with so many front row players missing for Italy. Its hard to make a case that they are the best side in the competition, or the better side than Ireland but they bought their A game in defense and took advantage of Irelands poor start to take a deserved victory.
Id still expect them to overwhelm Italy, should win by 20. If they can make it 30 the pressure is very much on Ireland and England to win by margins, and thats were bananaskins come in.

by lostinwales Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:25 pm

Jimpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

It was close on the scoreboard, no question, but Wales had roughly one chance for a try all game (and that was from a welsh scrum that got marmalised). They created nothing at all in the second half, or in fact any time from about mid way through the first. That is why it was comfortable. In a 'close' game you expect the losing team to be fighting and putting on pressure at the end of the game, not ending with a wimper. That is why that Friday night was a comfortable win.

Evidence suggests that Wales would be much more 'up for it' now compared to where they were for the first game, but they would still be behind in the set piece (although Charteris would help at the line out)

So far England beat Wales who beat Ireland who stuffed England. Rock paper scissors

by Comfort Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:31 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Comfort wrote:Wales, condemened for not scoring enough tries, but the difference at the weekend against Ireland..... Wales being clinical in their brief possession and Scott Williams scything through to score, something Ireland failed to do with all their possession....

Also gotta mention, the breakdown was a mess, thought it cleared up in the second half (apparently waving your arms about and rolling a bit more than you had been doing is enough to show Barnes you;re making every effort to get ~~in the scrumhalfs~~ out of the way). Any other day, the ref wouldn't have yellow carded Warburton and Wales would have won another 3 turnovers (which on the day were 3 shots at goal from memory? & the aforementioned yellow card)....

Anyway, I digress, as for 'current' form, I'd be a lot more confident about Wales vs England should it be taking place this wknd than when it did a few weeks back. Wales have undoubtedly improved (mentally, fitness wise and defensively) and England haven't imo.

I can understand what Robinson's saying completely, and at the moment I'd say hes probably got it about right. But, I think we'll see another strong Wales performance at the world cup, the longer Wales are with Gatland/Edwards they improve, as has been mentioned countless times.

Just a quick point...one side had more than twice as many rucks to defend as the other, if anyone got away with rolling around on the wrong side its pretty clear which team that was, the one that also didnt get carded for cynically pulling down a maul on the try line.

Bleat all you want, Wales did well to come away with a victory in the end but were within a few minutes of getting steam rolled into oblivion. Hell of a defensive performance and the tackling and workrate of some forwards was amongst the best I hve ever seen. Wales clearly do have some ability in attack, the Scott Williams try showed that. Theyve got the best goal kicker in the tournament, and pretty good back up in Biggar and Preistland.
Theres a lot of good in Wales, but their inability to win and keep the ball as the game wore on has to be a worry, even more so with so many front row players missing for Italy. Its hard to make a case that they are the best side in the competition, or the better side than Ireland but they bought their A game in defense and took advantage of Irelands poor start to take a deserved victory.
Id still expect them to overwhelm Italy, should win by 20. If they can make it 30 the pressure is very much on Ireland and England to win by margins, and thats were bananaskins come in.

You do know I was referring to refereeing as a whole? Both sides were as guilty of ofences as eachother at the breakdown, especially getting in the scrum half's way although it slightly (as mentiond) improved in the second half.

If we want to go through all the decisions we'd be here forever, I honestly thought the Irish maul rotated back towards the touchline as it was disrupted and the maul started moving forward but they fell over Irish bodies from the previous disruption that had stopped said maul.... its all perspective.

Who's bleating? Get out in the sunshine man! Happy St Patricks day.

by **Notch** Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:45 pm

If Samson Lee is out of the World Cup, that could be decisive

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_37596,00.html

Adam Jones to come riding to the rescue, perhaps...

by Jimpy Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:45 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

It was close on the scoreboard, no question, but Wales had roughly one chance for a try all game (and that was from a welsh scrum that got marmalised). They created nothing at all in the second half, or in fact any time from about mid way through the first. That is why it was comfortable. In a 'close' game you expect the losing team to be fighting and putting on pressure at the end of the game, not ending with a wimper. That is why that Friday night was a comfortable win.

Evidence suggests that Wales would be much more 'up for it' now compared to where they were for the first game, but they would still be behind in the set piece (although Charteris would help at the line out)

So far England beat Wales who beat Ireland who stuffed England. Rock paper scissors

Oh for goodness sake, you're starting to sound like Beshocked.

Okay, so if Ireland 'stuffed' England by 10 points, what do we call the 12 point win over Scotland? 'drubbing'? 'Massacre'?

Scotland weren't going to roll over you know, they weren't there to just make up the numbers.

by Jimpy Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:47 pm

Notch wrote:If Samson Lee is out of the World Cup, that could be decisive

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_37596,00.html

Adam Jones to come riding to the rescue, perhaps...

Jones, once considered a world class prop, failed to get to grips with the revised scrummaging laws and got left behind by his contemporaries. For Wales to be even thinking about him again would be regressive.

by lostinwales Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:53 pm

Jimpy wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

It was close on the scoreboard, no question, but Wales had roughly one chance for a try all game (and that was from a welsh scrum that got marmalised). They created nothing at all in the second half, or in fact any time from about mid way through the first. That is why it was comfortable. In a 'close' game you expect the losing team to be fighting and putting on pressure at the end of the game, not ending with a wimper. That is why that Friday night was a comfortable win.

Evidence suggests that Wales would be much more 'up for it' now compared to where they were for the first game, but they would still be behind in the set piece (although Charteris would help at the line out)

So far England beat Wales who beat Ireland who stuffed England. Rock paper scissors

Oh for goodness sake, you're starting to sound like Beshocked.

Okay, so if Ireland 'stuffed' England by 10 points, what do we call the 12 point win over Scotland? 'drubbing'? 'Massacre'?

Scotland weren't going to roll over you know, they weren't there to just make up the numbers.

I used 'stuffed' based on the same criteria that I used for Wales England. England were so far behind and making so many dumb mistakes (mainly due to Irish pressure) that they were obviously not going to win that game from early on. Mind you I did give up on watching England vs Ireland and missed England's best spell (and -from the one clip I saw- how they disallowed Nowell's try I'll never know).

The one big difference was that England did come back strongly at the end. Had the game gone on for maybe another hour or two then England might have won or at least drawn close. England Wales - well it would probably take an extra week or so before Wales would have constructed another scoring chance.

by Jimpy Tue 17 Mar 2015, 1:59 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

It was close on the scoreboard, no question, but Wales had roughly one chance for a try all game (and that was from a welsh scrum that got marmalised). They created nothing at all in the second half, or in fact any time from about mid way through the first. That is why it was comfortable. In a 'close' game you expect the losing team to be fighting and putting on pressure at the end of the game, not ending with a wimper. That is why that Friday night was a comfortable win.

Evidence suggests that Wales would be much more 'up for it' now compared to where they were for the first game, but they would still be behind in the set piece (although Charteris would help at the line out)

So far England beat Wales who beat Ireland who stuffed England. Rock paper scissors

Oh for goodness sake, you're starting to sound like Beshocked.

Okay, so if Ireland 'stuffed' England by 10 points, what do we call the 12 point win over Scotland? 'drubbing'? 'Massacre'?

Scotland weren't going to roll over you know, they weren't there to just make up the numbers.

I used 'stuffed' based on the same criteria that I used for Wales England. England were so far behind and making so many dumb mistakes (mainly due to Irish pressure) that they were obviously not going to win that game from early on. Mind you I did give up on watching England vs Ireland and missed England's best spell (and -from the one clip I saw- how they disallowed Nowell's try I'll never know).

The one big difference was that England did come back strongly at the end. Had the game gone on for maybe another hour or two then England might have won or at least drawn close. England Wales - well it would probably take an extra week or so before Wales would have constructed another scoring chance.

Try 5 or 10 minutes at most....

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:12 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

It was close on the scoreboard, no question, but Wales had roughly one chance for a try all game (and that was from a welsh scrum that got marmalised). They created nothing at all in the second half, or in fact any time from about mid way through the first.

And yet it was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

by maestegmafia Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:20 pm

Notch wrote:If Samson Lee is out of the World Cup, that could be decisive

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_37596,00.html

Adam Jones to come riding to the rescue, perhaps...

He is 50:50 for the RWC not out mate..

by Gwlad Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:22 pm

beshocked wrote:quinsforever you say England have improved. I don't think they have.

I thought England played better in last year's 6 nations.

So far it's 11 tries for England in 2015 in 4 matches, England got 14 tries in 2014 in 5 matches.

To surpass last year - England will need to score 4 tries vs France - I will concede England might have improved if they can do that.

England also had a much better points difference and have conceded the same amount of points in 5 games that the 2015 team has conceded in 4.

Jimpy sometimes some teams are winning comfortably then ease off - making a match look closer than it was. Sometimes scorelines do flatter sides.

You're not very good at listening are you? Scotland were beating England at one point. England weren't ever close to beating Ireland. England only pulled away from Scotland very late on the match. Ireland in comparison were comfortably ahead of England for the entire match. I would say that Ireland's win was more comfortable on this basis. England managed to get within 10 of Ireland because Ireland lost their star man on the day and lost shape.

You say England were never going to put 30-40 on Scotland - easy to say that with hindsight isn't it! England beat Italy by 30, beating Scotland by a similar margin was not unrealistic.

It was a hugely frustating performance from England.

I was more happy with England in the 2014 6 nations bar the game vs France.

We'll see what England do vs France.

Improved? Based on past performance improvement would require better performance. For England in the 6 Nations that means a Grand Slam as they have consistently come 2nd and, according to quins, are happy to do so.

England have stuttered again this year after a more than promising start they should have kicked on, they haven't and have looked woeful at times in execution. QED they have not improved but remained the same: with potential but you need to apply yourself, B-

by lostinwales Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:26 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:... As for current form I would say Wales are ahead of England at the moment.

And yet England won comfortably in Cardiff

Comfortably? Really? It was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

And what was the result in the 80th minute?

Maybe not as comfortable as some would have you think, but given England's 2nd half performance, it was comprehensive in any case.

It was close on the scoreboard, no question, but Wales had roughly one chance for a try all game (and that was from a welsh scrum that got marmalised). They created nothing at all in the second half, or in fact any time from about mid way through the first.

And yet it was only a two-point lead until the 78th minute.

Yes, and had it stayed at 2 points it will still have been the most comfortable 2 pt win you'll see

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:29 pm

Okay. You keep telling yourself that.

by **Notch** Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:30 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Notch wrote:If Samson Lee is out of the World Cup, that could be decisive

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_37596,00.html

Adam Jones to come riding to the rescue, perhaps...

He is 50:50 for the RWC not out mate..

If Samson Lee is out of the World Cup

by lostinwales Tue 17 Mar 2015, 3:55 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Okay. You keep telling yourself that.

OK please tell me how Wales were ever going to score the 3 points needed to get back in the lead in that particular game. Because in the 2nd half they never got close to scoring anything at all.

by Guest Tue 17 Mar 2015, 4:04 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Okay. You keep telling yourself that.

OK please tell me how Wales were ever going to score the 3 points needed to get back in the lead in that particular game. Because in the 2nd half they never got close to scoring anything at all.

All it takes is a brain fart, or a refereeing interpretation, anywhere up to 5 metres inside Wales own half and we could have kicked it. I admit we were smashed in that second half. But then we went in 16-8 up. A first half smashing to us, you could say (I jest of course)! To suggest there is no way on god's earth that England could conceivable concede a penalty in kicking distance is a bit rich I think.

But England were the much better team, admittedly.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Mar 2015, 4:06 pm

There's no denying England were the better side. They should have won comfortably.

by Comfort Tue 17 Mar 2015, 4:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Okay. You keep telling yourself that.

OK please tell me how Wales were ever going to score the 3 points needed to get back in the lead in that particular game. Because in the 2nd half they never got close to scoring anything at all.

Lostin, whilst I agree with what you're saying (clear difference in performance in the second half between the sides), LP is right awell. All it takes is an interception, a turnover or a few refereeing decisions and suddenly everythings changed. A 2 point lead is not comfortable in any situation on the rugby field!

by Guest Tue 17 Mar 2015, 7:45 pm

Gosper gave his opinion

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/67430724/Pro-England-Rugby-World-Cup-tweet-clumsy

by majesticimperialman Tue 17 Mar 2015, 8:01 pm

If you look at the Wales team that played against England. they have been together for a number of years now. 3/4 years at most with the odd change here and there. Rys Webb Liam Williams to name just 2 of them.

If you look at the England most of the players are "new" to the international rugby set up.

So i would say that at this moment England are a better team than Wales. ( at this moment) come the World Cup. Who knows? it will all depend on who it fit and who is injured. For either team.

by quinsforever Tue 17 Mar 2015, 8:08 pm

Gwlad wrote:
beshocked wrote:quinsforever you say England have improved. I don't think they have.

I thought England played better in last year's 6 nations.

So far it's 11 tries for England in 2015 in 4 matches, England got 14 tries in 2014 in 5 matches.

To surpass last year - England will need to score 4 tries vs France - I will concede England might have improved if they can do that.

England also had a much better points difference and have conceded the same amount of points in 5 games that the 2015 team has conceded in 4.

Jimpy sometimes some teams are winning comfortably then ease off - making a match look closer than it was. Sometimes scorelines do flatter sides.

You're not very good at listening are you? Scotland were beating England at one point. England weren't ever close to beating Ireland. England only pulled away from Scotland very late on the match. Ireland in comparison were comfortably ahead of England for the entire match. I would say that Ireland's win was more comfortable on this basis. England managed to get within 10 of Ireland because Ireland lost their star man on the day and lost shape.

You say England were never going to put 30-40 on Scotland - easy to say that with hindsight isn't it! England beat Italy by 30, beating Scotland by a similar margin was not unrealistic.

It was a hugely frustating performance from England.

I was more happy with England in the 2014 6 nations bar the game vs France.

We'll see what England do vs France.

Improved? Based on past performance improvement would require better performance. For England in the 6 Nations that means a Grand Slam as they have consistently come 2nd and, according to quins, are happy to do so.

England have stuttered again this year after a more than promising start they should have kicked on, they haven't and have looked woeful at times in execution. QED they have not improved but remained the same: with potential but you need to apply yourself, B-

not quite old bean.

improved results are different from improved performance and improved team.

will let you ponder that one. let me know if you need a hint Wales will not get out of World Cup Group - Robinson - Page 3 1347041234

Wales will not get out of World Cup Group - Robinson - Page 3 1347041234

by Gwlad Tue 17 Mar 2015, 8:48 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
beshocked wrote:quinsforever you say England have improved. I don't think they have.

I thought England played better in last year's 6 nations.

So far it's 11 tries for England in 2015 in 4 matches, England got 14 tries in 2014 in 5 matches.

To surpass last year - England will need to score 4 tries vs France - I will concede England might have improved if they can do that.

England also had a much better points difference and have conceded the same amount of points in 5 games that the 2015 team has conceded in 4.

Jimpy sometimes some teams are winning comfortably then ease off - making a match look closer than it was. Sometimes scorelines do flatter sides.

You're not very good at listening are you? Scotland were beating England at one point. England weren't ever close to beating Ireland. England only pulled away from Scotland very late on the match. Ireland in comparison were comfortably ahead of England for the entire match. I would say that Ireland's win was more comfortable on this basis. England managed to get within 10 of Ireland because Ireland lost their star man on the day and lost shape.

You say England were never going to put 30-40 on Scotland - easy to say that with hindsight isn't it! England beat Italy by 30, beating Scotland by a similar margin was not unrealistic.

It was a hugely frustating performance from England.

I was more happy with England in the 2014 6 nations bar the game vs France.

We'll see what England do vs France.

Improved? Based on past performance improvement would require better performance. For England in the 6 Nations that means a Grand Slam as they have consistently come 2nd and, according to quins, are happy to do so.

England have stuttered again this year after a more than promising start they should have kicked on, they haven't and have looked woeful at times in execution. QED they have not improved but remained the same: with potential but you need to apply yourself, B-
not quite old bean.

improved results are different from improved performance and improved team.

will let you ponder that one. let me know if you need a hint

Oh yes please Wales will not get out of World Cup Group - Robinson - Page 3 3933776953

by quinsforever Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:26 pm

the opposition are not of identical quality from year to year and match to match.

england can be a stronger team than the year prior even if they come second, first, or third vs last year's second. its is perfect possible to be slightly improved in absolute terms (although subjective) while being better, the same or worse in relative terms.

i actually think wales are better this year than last. and ireland too. which is perfectly logically consistent with each team finishing in exactly the same position as last year.

clear as mud?

by The Saint Tue 17 Mar 2015, 9:45 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
The Saint wrote:
When? Before the RWC we beat you 3 times consecutively. Then after the RWC we had beaten you 3 times consecutively... If it wasn't for our slumps in form we wouldn't have lost a single game...

When?

2007, 2008, 2009. Funnily enough I did actually forget about that 07 RWC warm-up 'blip', and just counted the 6 Nations games during that period. However for the 2011 RWC (the one I was referring to in my post that you quoted) we began our winning streak by notching up a victory in our second RWC warm-up against you, and then won two 6 Nations games consecutively. Get it? Very Happy

by Gwlad Tue 17 Mar 2015, 10:23 pm

quinsforever wrote:the opposition are not of identical quality from year to year and match to match.

england can be a stronger team than the year prior even if they come second, first, or third vs last year's second. its is perfect possible to be slightly improved in absolute terms (although subjective) while being better, the same or worse in relative terms.

i actually think wales are better this year than last. and ireland too. which is perfectly logically consistent with each team finishing in exactly the same position as last year.

clear as mud?

Should each para be taken as isolated arguments or is the whole caboodle a single argument? Even if the opposition standard has changed that does not deflect from the fact that during the competition itself i don't feel England's have improved, rather they have failed to kick on and flourish in the way the opening match suggested they might

If you aren't in politics, you should be. I particularly liked

' its is perfect possible to be slightly improved in absolute terms (although subjective) while being better, the same or worse in relative terms.'

Just superb spin. Hats off. thumbsup

Also, if the standard of opposition has changed then Wales cannot have improved as the same rule applies to them as to England

This is therefore very depressing. Sad

by Steve_rugby Tue 17 Mar 2015, 11:09 pm

The Saint wrote:

When? Before the RWC we beat you 3 times consecutively. Then after the RWC we had beaten you 3 times consecutively... If it wasn't for our slumps in form we wouldn't have lost a single game...

I presume you're forgetting the 62-5 hammering at Twickenham that was in that 3 match "consecutive" winning streak ?

Wales have never beaten England 3 times in a row after a RWC.

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