Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Come on folks, chunky's a very special person. Don't engage him in his meaningless, whinging debates any more. I feel for him, I really do

So why comment on the thread?

A question that could well be aimed at you every time you gate crash any topic. You're a peurile WUM but hey, we all get our kicks in different ways. You seem to enjoy whinging and bitterness more than anyone else on 606.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pro12 should now demand Regions get their house in order and stop bringing the Product into disrepute with the constant moaning and bickering about not-enough-money.   Their constant drone endangers sponsorship and broadcasting fees.  (The very goal of some of the moaners     We ain't dumb)

If the Regions want out.... call WRU's bluff again and refuse to play next season.  'Celtic' rugby has no issues - it doesn't exist.  Welsh rugby is the issue.

Can you give an example of these?

Still waiting

TJ wrote:No indeed they do not.  However the fact that some do reinforces the divide between the have and the have nots and concentrates talent at the top.  It does not make gfor a good league long term - it will end up like the football premiership where the same few teams are at the top and the rest are second rank.  I prefer a league where spending power is equalised as much as possible.  Once the wage cap goes as it surely will then this is what will happen.  Its a real shame.  In ten years you will have a much poorer product.  Sure your top teams will do very well in europe but the league will no longer be competative adn smaller teams will have no chance of doing well.

You are aware it's only Sarecens and Bath that are ran like that, Tigers, Exeter, Saints are not. Thats less than 50% of the current big teams.

Why will the wage cap go? why do you think it surely will?

Your spouting nonsense to qualify you to spout even more nonsense.

I presume thats what you think of the Pro12 then as it's only really the Irish teams that do well in Europe.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Come on folks, chunky's a very special person. Don't engage him in his meaningless, whinging debates any more. I feel for him, I really do

So why comment on the thread?

A question that could well be aimed at you every time you gate crash any topic. You're a peurile WUM but hey, we all get our kicks in different ways. You seem to enjoy whinging and bitterness more than anyone else on 606.

I'm gatecrashing this thread?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I'm interested to see by what evidence you can conclude that English club rugby is currently better than Scottish club rugby.

Seriously? You think the combined average strength, power, financial situation, academy prospects and value of Glasgow and Edinburgh are on a par with Leicester, Saints, Bath, Saracens, Sale, Gloucester, L iIrish, Exeter, Newcastle, Wasps etc?

Really?

We have a population of 5 million, England has a population of 53 million.

So we have one tenth of the population, ergo 2 teams is all we can sustain. The fact that one of these teams is in the semi final of a European championship and the other is leading the domestic league suggest that Scottish club rugby is doing fairly well.

Hence debunking your foolish post that suggests the amount of money associated with a league dictates how well it's teams perform or how sustainable it is.

Where is your evidence that the pro12 nations are lagging behind France and England?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Falling behind England? No, not yet. If PRL get their way they will destroy NH rugby, but as things stand, no. The AP and the Pro12, are behind the T14, and there is no real solution to the problem, unless the T14 implodes, which I hope it eventually will.

Scottish and Irish domestic rugby not falling behind England? Fair do's, you're in for a shock in the next few years. I'll have fun revisiting these threads.

No, I don't believe we are. What progress have the AP teams made this season? Sure, they had 4 quarter finalists, but that's in a year were 3 Irish teams have been in transition, and in a year leading to the world cup. I'm confident enough all 3 will get back on track 2016/17 season onwards.

The PRL teams are mostly in debt. Is it sustainable? Will a couple of the top clubs go to the wall? Will investors run? So many questions, but you appear confident enough to know the answers.

Don't you worry about the Scots, and the Irish, Chunky. Just you concentrate on Welsh rugby.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

We have a population of 5 million, England has a population of 53 million.

So we have one tenth of the population, ergo 2 teams is all we can sustain. The fact that one of these teams is in the semi final of a European championship and the other is leading the domestic league suggest that Scottish club rugby is doing fairly well.

I think it's a tremendous effort from Edinburgh to beat the likes of mighty London Welsh but I'm not sure that competition is a barometer when you see the Dragons in a semi final. Glasgow are going great guns, good luck to them. I don't believe that any celtic rugby nation is even treading water when compared with England and France domestically.

Hence debunking your foolish post that suggests the amount of money associated with a league dictates how well it's teams perform.

If you read the thread you'll see that is incorrect. The amount of money associated with a league determines how teams can budget, how they are run and who they can sign etc.

If you're happy with being in a league that is a quarter as attractive to people as the nearest rival, then good luck to you. I'm not.

ME-109 wrote:Where is your evidence that the pro12 nations are lagging behind France and England?

The opening post.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Falling behind England? No, not yet. If PRL get their way they will destroy NH rugby, but as things stand, no. The AP and the Pro12, are behind the T14, and there is no real solution to the problem, unless the T14 implodes, which I hope it eventually will.

Scottish and Irish domestic rugby not falling behind England? Fair do's, you're in for a shock in the next few years. I'll have fun revisiting these threads.

No, I don't believe we are. What progress have the AP teams made this season? Sure, they had 4 quarter finalists, but that's in a year were 3 Irish teams have been in transition, and in a year leading to the world cup. I'm confident enough all 3 will get back on track 2016/17 season onwards.

The PRL teams are mostly in debt. Is it sustainable? Will a couple of the top clubs go to the wall? Will investors run? So many questions, but you appear confident enough to know the answers.

Don't you worry about the Scots, and the Irish, Chunky. Just you concentrate on Welsh rugby.

You are concentrating on performance on the field in the last few months. I am concentrating on the financials which will affect the celtic domestic game in the seasons to come.

There's more to the finance of each league than TV money no?

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's more to the finance of each league than TV money no?

Absolutely. But the figures tell an interesting story. If an unexpected one.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pro12 should now demand Regions get their house in order and stop bringing the Product into disrepute with the constant moaning and bickering about not-enough-money.   Their constant drone endangers sponsorship and broadcasting fees.  (The very goal of some of the moaners     We ain't dumb)

If the Regions want out.... call WRU's bluff again and refuse to play next season.  'Celtic' rugby has no issues - it doesn't exist.  Welsh rugby is the issue.

Can you give an example of these?

Still waiting

All of Last year and now Hore this year and your CEO of yonder Welsh Regional Rugby organisation doing the number crunching on all the loadsa money the Pro12 is missing out on?  

Don't you even read your own posts or threads related to this topic...................  hundreds of thousands of words last year in all media from all strands of official Welsh rugby - threatening, whining, moaning, giving out, back biting.

IF the Regions want out - then I'm sure there is a door there for them somewhere.  IF the Regions are fine with being in then maybe you should follow your Region of choice and settle down and be fine with them?  I don't think you really know who your enemy is, Chunky.  Anything that moves and doesn't seek a B&I League

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Falling behind England? No, not yet. If PRL get their way they will destroy NH rugby, but as things stand, no. The AP and the Pro12, are behind the T14, and there is no real solution to the problem, unless the T14 implodes, which I hope it eventually will.

Scottish and Irish domestic rugby not falling behind England? Fair do's, you're in for a shock in the next few years. I'll have fun revisiting these threads.

No, I don't believe we are. What progress have the AP teams made this season? Sure, they had 4 quarter finalists, but that's in a year were 3 Irish teams have been in transition, and in a year leading to the world cup. I'm confident enough all 3 will get back on track 2016/17 season onwards.

The PRL teams are mostly in debt. Is it sustainable? Will a couple of the top clubs go to the wall? Will investors run? So many questions, but you appear confident enough to know the answers.

Don't you worry about the Scots, and the Irish, Chunky. Just you concentrate on Welsh rugby.

You are concentrating on performance on the field in the last few months. I am concentrating on the financials which will affect the celtic domestic game in the seasons to come.

And you don't think the financials have an impact on performance on the field?

What about getting behind the Pro12, Chunky? Support it fully, and instead of putting off potential Region fans, encourage them to turn up and support the clubs......... Financially!

SecretFly wrote:

All of Last year and now Hore this year and your CEO of yonder Welsh Regional Rugby organisation doing the number crunching on all the loadsa money the Pro12 is missing out on?  

What on earth are you talking about?

Mark Davies: "Now we need to focus on the Pro12. From a PRW perspective, that is my number one priority. We need to go to the market early, secure the right value for that product and make sure we are in the same ball park as other leagues in Europe. There is a real drive there to realise the value of the Pro12."

Don't you even read your own posts or threads related to this topic...................  hundreds of thousands of words last year in all media from all strands of official Welsh rugby - threatening, whining, moaning, giving out, back biting.

IF the Regions want out - then I'm sure there is a door there for them somewhere.  IF the Regions are fine with being in then maybe you should follow your Region of choice and settle down and be fine with them?  I don't think you really know who your enemy is, Chunky.  Anything that moves and doesn't seek a B&I League

I haven't read anything of the sort. I'm afraid. Some quotes to back up your accusations would be nice.

Munchkin wrote:

What about getting behind the Pro12, Chunky? Support it fully, and instead of putting off potential Region fans, encourage them to turn up ad support the clubs......... Financially!

I do. I go to every game I can. Doesn't mean I don't want change.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's more to the finance of each league than TV money no?

Absolutely. But the figures tell an interesting story. If an unexpected one.

So you're making an assumption on future performance by focusing only on 1 aspect of finance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's more to the finance of each league than TV money no?

Not for Chunky - no.
For Chunky, the logic is clear:

if a city has a population of say five million. And has regular rugby crowds at the representative rugby club of some 30,000 a week - and gets a nice TV deal from a hungry broadcaster that wants to interest some of the other 5M......................

................. then - according to Chunky logic - a town of 20,000 should be able to have a local rugby club supported by about 19,500, and have a Equal TV deal as the big city club for the remaining 500 people that the broadcasters want to attract and gain advertising revenue from.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What about getting behind the Pro12, Chunky? Support it fully, and instead of putting off potential Region fans, encourage them to turn up ad support the clubs......... Financially!

I do. I go to every game I can. Doesn't mean I don't want change.

Great that you do, Chunky. Now maybe encourage others to do the same, instead of complaining about this "joke of a league".

Every little bit helps.

Munchkin wrote: Now maybe encourage others to do the same.

I do. Doesn't mean I can't criticise the product I see.

You seem to want to live in some sort of facist rugby regime where criticism is not allowed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I haven't read anything of the sort. I'm afraid. Some quotes to back up your accusations would be nice.

Denial, Denial, Denial. Yeah, that'll work. Last year never happened. The Regions are happy. It's just a fan of one of them that still wants it all to change!!!!!! Like I said, you haven't a clue who your enemy is - us Irish, the Scots, the Celts, your own Region, the players, the money, the TV people....................... it's all up in the air. Angry at everything.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I haven't read anything of the sort. I'm afraid. Some quotes to back up your accusations would be nice.

Denial, Denial, Denial.  Yeah, that'll work.  Last year never happened.  The Regions are happy.  It's just a fan of one of them that still wants it all to change!!!!!!  Like I said, you haven't a clue who your enemy is - us Irish, the Scots, the Celts, your own Region, the players, the money, the TV people.......................  it's all up in the air.  Angry at everything.

I still haven't seen 1 example of a quote by the Welsh regions that has "brought the pro12 into disrepute".

I actually laughed out loud when I read your accusation.

Sin é wrote:After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

A quote another poster from a forum:

In Wales, where we are told that we dislike the Prolapse12, the TV contract is worth £3.5m. In Scotland it is worth £150k. In Ireland it is worth €900k.

We could, therefore, easily rise the "value of the product" to its Welsh "value" simply by doing one of two things:

1 - forcing the lazy blazers at the SRU and IRFU to properly sell TV rights
or
2 - force the Prolapse12 to ensure that broadcast revenues are kept per territory

Food for thought.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Now maybe encourage others to do the same.

I do. Doesn't mean I can't criticise the product I see.

You seem to want to live in some sort of facist rugby regime where criticism is not allowed.

I genuinely love the Pro12. Sure it could be better, and i believe it will be. Welsh rugby getting its house in order would be a start, along with the Italians finding a competitive edge.

How do you encourage others, Chunky? By telling them it's a joke of a league, and you would much prefer the AP? Maybe telling them that it's fixed in favour of the Irish, by the Irish? How many potential fans would be encouraged to turn up after reading that sort of nonsense? Not many I would think.

To be fair to the Scottish clubs they actually look like they are improving which is good for the Pro12.

7th in the Pro12 and an Amlin semi final is a very good season for Edinburgh.
Top in the Pro12 is brilliant for Glasgow.

Not better than the English clubs though. Still 2 semi finalists in the Amlin and 1 semi finalist in the ERCC.

Biggest problem for the Pro12 is that the Italians are still stuck to the bottom of the table.

Pro12 needs a strong Italy to really improve value.

Munchkin wrote: Welsh rugby getting its house in order would be a start, along with the Italians finding a competitive edge.

Welsh rugby has got it's house in order. And will continue to do so once October 31st is out of the way.

How do you encourage others, Chunky? By telling them it's a joke of a league, and you would much prefer the AP? Maybe telling them that it's fixed in favour of the Irish, by the Irish? How many potential fans would be encouraged to turn up after reading that sort of nonsense? Not many I would think.

No matter what the competition, you've got to turn up to support your local first class side. That's what I tell 'em.

gcBlues wrote:

Sin é wrote:After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

A quote another poster from a forum:

In Wales, where we are told that we dislike the Prolapse12, the TV contract is worth £3.5m. In Scotland it is worth £150k. In Ireland it is worth €900k.

We could, therefore, easily rise the "value of the product" to its Welsh "value" simply by doing one of two things:

1 - forcing the lazy blazers at the SRU and IRFU to properly sell TV rights
or
2 - force the Prolapse12 to ensure that broadcast revenues are kept per territory

Food for thought.

Figure don't really add up. SKY pay £5m + Welsh £3.5m = £8.5 leaving another £3m to account for. Do the Italians not get to keep their broadcast fees? What about whatever it is BBC pay Ulster?

I think the key issue with the Pro12 in Wales has been down to the moron who is/was the CEO. A man so hell bent on control (going way beyond rugby with that influence too) that he deliberately caused hardship for the regions.

With him out of the way, a WRU board which actually wants to govern rather than being marginalised by an egomaniac should mean growth of the game in Wales. They've already sold 35k tickets for JD3, sure its only £10 a ticket but its a way to get people hooked.

I reckon the RSA will be renegotiated once Cardiff Airport's commander in chief leaves and the regions and welsh rugby will benefit. And this also goes beyond the pro12 and regional rugby, all the players and fans of club rugby have been disillusioned by league restructures, low funding and fall in playing numbers.

My personal issue with the Pro12 is that it just doesn't catch my attention. I think the new qualification system is a good idea but should be done on merit not country. How italy can have a team in the RCC automatically is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the whole league position criteria.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Welsh rugby getting its house in order would be a start, along with the Italians finding a competitive edge.

Welsh rugby has got it's house in order. And will continue to do so once October 31st is out of the way.

How do you encourage others, Chunky? By telling them it's a joke of a league, and you would much prefer the AP? Maybe telling them that it's fixed in favour of the Irish, by the Irish? How many potential fans would be encouraged to turn up after reading that sort of nonsense? Not many I would think.

No matter what the competition, you've got to turn up to support your local first class side. That's what I tell 'em.

Then what is Hore moaning about?

We are talking about attracting new fans, potential, Chunky. You don't sell a product by telling your potential customers it's rubbish....

Munchkin wrote:

gcBlues wrote:

Sin é wrote:After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

A quote another poster from a forum:

In Wales, where we are told that we dislike the Prolapse12, the TV contract is worth £3.5m. In Scotland it is worth £150k. In Ireland it is worth €900k.

We could, therefore, easily rise the "value of the product" to its Welsh "value" simply by doing one of two things:

1 - forcing the lazy blazers at the SRU and IRFU to properly sell TV rights
or
2 - force the Prolapse12 to ensure that broadcast revenues are kept per territory

Food for thought.

Figure don't really add up. SKY pay £5m + Welsh £3.5m = £8.5 leaving another £3m to account for. Do the Italians not get to keep their broadcast fees? What about whatever it is BBC pay Ulster?

Part of that £3million would be, i assume, the 1.5 million between irish and scots and then ulster/italians.

I posted it up here to see if anyone had seen those figures before and clarify if they were indeed true or not.

Munchkin wrote: You don't sell a product by telling your potential customers it's rubbish....

Who has said that to their customers?

Hore's point was that the RSA is good but probably not good enough when compared with other teams. He wasn't having a go at the league, unless I missed something.

beshocked wrote:To be fair to the Scottish clubs they actually look like they are improving which is good for the Pro12.

7th in the Pro12 and an Amlin semi final is a very good season for Edinburgh.
Top in the Pro12 is brilliant for Glasgow.

Not better than the English clubs though. Still 2 semi finalists in the Amlin and 1 semi finalist in the ERCC.

Biggest problem for the Pro12 is that the Italians are still stuck to the bottom of the table.

Pro12 needs a strong Italy to really improve value.

It fairness your comparing apples and organes. England get 6 ERC entrants every year guranteed. Granted the teams from England vary but the nationality does not.

By contrast Scotland now get one only with the other only option having to qualify against other nations to do so. So just purely speaking mathematically here England have a greater success chance simply by the amount of teams it gets to enter if you are comparing them to Scotland.

Your sentiment regarding the Italians will improve the product immensily but then again I remember a few years back the scottish sides where in a similar position to where italy are now. They managed to consolodate and then start developing. Give the italians the equal amount of time the scots had and im sure progress will come. But I think if the Italians can become competitive then it will more than likely surpass the Aviva in terms of quality on display simply as there are so many national team players involved with all parts of the league. The Aviva might be able to strengthen its bottom table if they do abolish relegation and move to 14 teams but I have no idea if they could actually push a change like this through....

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I still haven't seen 1 example of a quote by the Welsh regions that has "brought the pro12 into disrepute".

I actually laughed out loud when I read your accusation.

That was the right response.  Laughing.   I thought I'd introduce a counter strike of bombast to add to the occasion but of course, your bombast metre doesn't compute bombast.

You talk about the League not attracting money and yet sit by as the Regions and WRU went at it last year like a cage fight - blood, guts, cheap shots and teeth lost.  The lot.  

And after all that show, and now Hore and CEO start mouthing again, you have the 'chunky' to say it's all the Pro12s fault that not enough money is coming in???  

What right minded investor would approach such a hornet's nest of moans.  Let the moans settle for a year or two and we'll see where the money goes then.  You certainly won't be helping the settle down period though, will you?  No, not Mr B&I League Chunky.  No sir.  He'll keep the fires of his 'Crap League' crusade going.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I still haven't seen 1 example of a quote by the Welsh regions that has "brought the pro12 into disrepute".

I actually laughed out loud when I read your accusation.

That was the right response.  Laughing.   I thought I'd introduce a counter strike of bombast to add to the occasion but of course, your bombast metre doesn't compute bombast.

You talk about the League not attracting money and yet sit by as the Regions and WRU went at it last year like a cage fight - blood, guts, cheap shots and teeth lost.  The lot.  

And after all that show, and now Hore and CEO start mouthing again, you have the 'chunky' to say it's all the Pro12s fault that not enough money is coming in???  

What right minded investor would approach such a hornet's nest of moans.  Let the moans settle for a year or two and we'll see where the money goes then.  You certainly won't be helping the settle down period though, will you?  No, not Mr B&I League Chunky.  No sir.  He'll keep the fires of his 'Crap League' crusade going.

France and England have had similar internal squabbles. They seem to be doing alright.

gcBlues wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

gcBlues wrote:

Sin é wrote:After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

A quote another poster from a forum:

In Wales, where we are told that we dislike the Prolapse12, the TV contract is worth £3.5m. In Scotland it is worth £150k. In Ireland it is worth €900k.

We could, therefore, easily rise the "value of the product" to its Welsh "value" simply by doing one of two things:

1 - forcing the lazy blazers at the SRU and IRFU to properly sell TV rights
or
2 - force the Prolapse12 to ensure that broadcast revenues are kept per territory

Food for thought.

Figure don't really add up. SKY pay £5m + Welsh £3.5m = £8.5 leaving another £3m to account for. Do the Italians not get to keep their broadcast fees? What about whatever it is BBC pay Ulster?

Part of that £3million would be, i assume, the 1.5 million between irish and scots and then ulster/italians.

I posted it up here to see if anyone had seen those figures before and clarify if they were indeed true or not.

€900k Euro is about £650k + £150k (Scottish) = £800k leaving £2.2m, and I'm not sure the Italians share their fee. Maybe Ulster contribute £2.2m



It's not fair!!!!

gcBlues wrote:

Sin é wrote:After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

A quote another poster from a forum:

In Wales, where we are told that we dislike the Prolapse12, the TV contract is worth £3.5m. In Scotland it is worth £150k. In Ireland it is worth €900k.

We could, therefore, easily rise the "value of the product" to its Welsh "value" simply by doing one of two things:

1 - forcing the lazy blazers at the SRU and IRFU to properly sell TV rights
or
2 - force the Prolapse12 to ensure that broadcast revenues are kept per territory

Food for thought.

That was the old deal. There is a new TV deal now. It should be noted that the old deal was also based on Ireland providing the Title Sponsor (Rabo only operated in ROI and would probably only sponsor the league if every Irish game was on tv to get any benefit from it).

Roger got the good deal for Wales because of his excellent connections with BBC.

It should also note that income for the PRO12 gets the sporting tax exemption (i.e., that is worth an extra 15+% of PRO12 income.

Sin é wrote:

Roger got the good deal for Wales because of his excellent connections with BBC.

.

He didn't get a good deal for Wales. He got a good deal for the Scottish, Italians and Irish, while those nations did bugger all in terms of getting tv revenue. He let BBC Wales subsidise the rest of celtic and Italian rugby.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Roger got the good deal for Wales because of his excellent connections with BBC.

.

He didn't get a good deal for Wales. He got a good deal for the Scottish, Italians and Irish, while those nations did bugger all in terms of getting tv revenue. He let BBC Wales subsidise the rest of celtic and Italian rugby.

So what about the 3m that the Italians were paying to the league? How were they being subsidised.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Roger got the good deal for Wales because of his excellent connections with BBC.

.

He didn't get a good deal for Wales. He got a good deal for the Scottish, Italians and Irish, while those nations did bugger all in terms of getting tv revenue. He let BBC Wales subsidise the rest of celtic and Italian rugby.

So what about the 3m that the Italians were paying to the league? How were they being subsidised.

You're right, they helped the Irish and Scots do bugger all too.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

France and England have had similar internal squabbles. They seem to be doing alright.

They are doing alright because they fervently believe in their leagues. You go tell an English poster or a French poster that their League is bullshcit, that it's crap, that its a joke and I'll tell you where their 'internal squabbles' will hit you - directly between the legs as hard as they can.

But you Chunky.  You're not satisfied with Internal squabbles - you simply want OUT.  Your ultimate dream is back playing the English teams week in and week out in your Anglo/Welsh League.  

So there is nothing 'Internal Squabbling' about your squabbles.  You simply don't want your Region or Regions to be part of Pro12.  And that's your prerogative of course. But like I always tell you, don't cloak that heartfelt wish under this disguise that the Pro12 is crap and nothing it can do is right.  You don't care whether its crap or great - you simply want OUT. The more you can advance the idea that it's crap, the closer you get to your goal of ending it.

Ulster brought in BBC NI.

Welshmushroom wrote:

beshocked wrote:To be fair to the Scottish clubs they actually look like they are improving which is good for the Pro12.

7th in the Pro12 and an Amlin semi final is a very good season for Edinburgh.
Top in the Pro12 is brilliant for Glasgow.

Not better than the English clubs though. Still 2 semi finalists in the Amlin and 1 semi finalist in the ERCC.

Biggest problem for the Pro12 is that the Italians are still stuck to the bottom of the table.

Pro12 needs a strong Italy to really improve value.

It fairness your comparing apples and organes.  England get 6 ERC entrants every year guranteed.  Granted the teams from England vary but the nationality does not.

By contrast Scotland now get one only with the other only option having to qualify against other nations to do so.  So just purely speaking mathematically here England have a greater success chance simply by the amount of teams it gets to enter if you are comparing them to Scotland.  

Your sentiment regarding the Italians will improve the product immensily but then again I remember a few years back the scottish sides where in a similar position to where italy are now.  They managed to consolodate and then start developing.  Give the italians the equal amount of time the scots had and im sure progress will come.  But I think if the Italians can become competitive then it will more than likely surpass the Aviva in terms of  quality on display simply as there are so many national team players involved with all parts of the league.  The Aviva might be able to strengthen its bottom table if they do abolish relegation and move to 14 teams but I have no idea if they could actually push a change like this through....

Welshmushroom the rules have only changed this year. Coincidentally this has seen an improvement from both Glasgow and Edinburgh - perhaps this is partly because they have to earn a ERCC place instead of having it handed to them on a platter.

Perhaps but the advantage of smaller countries is you can channel your resources into less clubs which should lead to a boost in quality.

I agree a competitive Italy could well see the Pro12 surpassing the AP but Treviso and Zebre must retain their best players.

Another problem that the Pro12 inevitably faces is a loss of some of their best players. The Pro12 would be stronger if it still had the likes of K.Brown,North,Parisse,Davies,Roberts,Halfpenny,Sexton (I know he's coming back), Hibbard,Masi,Charteris etc.

Compare this to the AP which hasn't really lost too many players of note abroad.

Whilst I do not agree entirely with chunky, I do agree to some extent, I like the Pro12 and the concept of 4 different countries coming together, but I think we need a shake up, I think that the Scots and Italians should be putting more teams in and I think we need a serious look at how the refs are decided for each game, we CANNOT have referees from the same country as the teams they are reffing, we should either be in a situation where it is a different national ref or go back to the old way, where the away side had the same national ref, there is just too much grounds for the argument FOR bias in our league, we need to get away from it.

SecretFly wrote:

They are doing alright because they fervently believe in their leagues.  You go tell an English poster or a French poster that their League is bullshcit, that it's crap, that its a joke and I'll tell you where their 'internal squabbles' will hit you - directly between the legs as hard as they can.

As much as I'd love my opinion to carry that much weight I don't think it does.

But you Chunky.  You're not satisfied with Internal squabbles - you simply want OUT.  Your ultimate dream is back playing the English teams week in and week out in your Anglo/Welsh League.  

The mere thought just made me go weak at the knees. Probably won't happen, but we've all got to have a dream right?

So there is nothing 'Internal Squabbling' about your squabbles.  You simply don't want your Region or Regions to be part of Pro12.  And that's your prerogative of course.  But like I always tell you, don't cloak that heartfelt wish under this disguise that the Pro12 is crap and nothing it can do is right.  You don't care whether its crap or great - you simply want OUT.  The more you can advance the idea that it's crap, the closer you get to your goal of ending it.

Again, it's just me and my opinions.

Disrepute. LOL.

It would be a huge mistake for the Scots or the Italians to bring in extra teams right now, LD. They couldn't afford it, and the Pro12 would need a second tier.

Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

Don Alfonso wrote:Why would the English want the Welsh to join the AP?

What would they get out of it?

We've done this a million times. They probably wouldn't. So take it to another thread, this one's about the pathetic ability of the pro12 to make any money.

Beshocked, bringing those players back will do absolutely sweet fa for the league, the Irish provinces have NEVER played their central contracted players that often in the league, and with these new DC players that we are getting back will have limits on their games as well, but I am hearing that the amount of games for each DC player might be a bit vague to say the least.

LordDowlais wrote:Whilst I do not agree entirely with chunky, I do agree to some extent, I like the Pro12 and the concept of 4 different countries coming together, but I think we need a shake up, I think that the Scots and Italians should be putting more teams in and I think we need a serious look at how the refs are decided for each game, we CANNOT have referees from the same country as the teams they are reffing, we should either be in a situation where it is a different national ref or go back to the old way, where the away side had the same national ref, there is just too much grounds for the argument FOR bias in our league, we need to get away from it.

Three cheers for Lord. Reasonable post. How you make what we have Better. Now there is a novel thought. Another Scots team. Another Italian team. Pro14. The reffing issue - who would disagree with a 'fairness' factor factored into an alleged 'biased' present? I don't think any of us would - provided it IS fair to all - that the conditions apply to all - Welsh, Irish, Scots, Italians. Not something designed to only keep the Irish and Welsh parts happy. This isn't and shouldn't be a two tier league in any of the rulings.

Munchkin wrote:It would be a huge mistake for the Scots or the Italians to bring in extra teams right now, LD. They couldn't afford it, and the Pro12 would need a second tier.

Well for a start they need them, Scotland and Italy are already making a joke out of the 6N, it is no surprise that the two nations with only two pro sides are the worst, they need extra teams, they are not poor countries they should be doing more, and more teams will be a bigger incentive to get more sponsors, if it means a second tier, then so be it.