Welsh World Cup Squad

First topic message reminder :

Dragons not playing until tomorrow and quiet on here so just wondered what early thoughts are on the Welsh WC squad.  I think a lot of it will pick itself unless injury or shock retirements dictate.  I have gone with a 30 man squad 16/14 forwards/back split same as last world cup so here's my thought.

Here's the 47 man Training Squad, Players in bold are the ones I think are already inked in:

Props (5) JENKINS,JAMES,LEE, Evans, Francis, Jarvis, Andrews
Hookers (3) BALDWIN,OWENS, Dacey
2 Row (3) AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball, Davies, Day
Backrow (5) FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, TIPURIC,Moriarty, King

No9s (3) WEBB, Davies, Ll Williams
No10s (3) BIGGAR, PRIESTLAND, Anscombe, Morgan
Centres (3) ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan, Allen
Back 3 (5) NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos, James (Then 2 from Cuthbert, Amos, Walker) For me Cuthbert and Amos

As I said the ones in Bold are the ones I feel are already pencilled in to go. Updated squad as we stand now

Gwlad wrote:Owens is my bench pick and we need Hibbard for his tackling and defensive scrummaging. Harsh on Baldwin but i think Hibbs will get picked assuming he can hit a barn door

That's the issue for me with Hibbard out of the 3 I think his line out work is the worst where as Owens' I feel is the best.  The other issue I have with Hibbard lies within his tackling, he often goes for the 'big' hit and when they come off they look great and really give momentum but a lot of the time he rushes out so intent on it he misses then leaves a gap in the defensive line.

For once though it's nice to have 3 hookers all capable of playing at top level and none of them will let us down when called upon.

Even since I saw Hibbard line up a big hit on Aaron Shingler and get put on his rear allowing Shingler to carry on running, I he has gone down in my estimation. He does occasionally put in a huge tackle, but to be honest that does not make him a good tackler. A good tackler get his man every time (or near enough).

SS,

That's my feelings when he gets it right it looks spectacular but more often or not he doesn't get it right.

If he concentrated on just making the tackle rather than the big hit he would be more effective.

With or without Lee, Rhodri would never count as a big loss. He's the sort of player who makes you facepalm when you see his name in the starting XV ala Scott Andrews i.e. "Is this the best we can offer just now??"

Without Lee and since Adam Jones got hit by me-me-fever, we're pretty fooked at tighthead either way barring a stroke of genius.

Agree with that and Rh Jones was never going to be first choice at L/Head either what with Jenkins, James, Smith and Evans all in the mix.

Like I said if Lee doesn't make it or stay fit then lets hope Francis is up to the job because if we have to rely on Jarvis or Andrews then we are royally screwed

Maybe we should decide Warby is a centre and then Tips can step up where he belongs.

Really hope to see Tips and Warby 6 and 7 v Uruguay when we need to put on a cricket score.

I noticed that BBC and S4C have the live rights for the 2 home warm up games, but only the highlights of the away game against Ireland, does anybody know if one of the Satellite companies have the live rights to that game?

Hibbard has become a bit of a quandry at international level, with the Ospreys pack he was untouchable, he was number 1 despite how well Owens played, yet since his move to Gloucester his style hasn't suited and he's been in and out.

I think with Wales he has been succesfull, with the blitz suiting his style of play he becomes an effective weapon at C / 3rd pillar / ultimate defender / whatever you want to call it. Too often though has he overestimated his abilities and been found out outside C in the wider chanells, which is where the problem lies.

In my opinion 90% of the tackle is in where you make contact, with another 9% where the ball goes to ground, it matters not a jot if you dominate or are dminated as long as that ball dies 1cm behind the gameline.

If I were making the call I'd be using Owens in the starting XV with Hibbards impact off the bench, infact thinking about it I would probably use Hibbard for 45/50, to do the physical damage before having Owens enter as the technically better player to bring us home... or maybe..

I don't know what the best option is, thank god I'm not making the decision!

I know its a great position to be in but I would put Hibbard as 3rd choice at mo. Baldwin has really raised his game and Owens would be my 1st choice.

Like most have agreed on when Hibbard pulls off big hit its great but he also misses a lot going for that big hit.

Shane 'who?' Williams has backed Sanjay for 15 if fit and Halfpenny at 14.

I think a lot of people would agree with him.

I like Baldwin, but he's still a bit raw and sloppy now and then, I think Owens has the experience over him, and Hibbard has the same, a good RWC run and a succesfull lions tour under his belt, he knows how to win under Gatland.

I think Hibbards scrummaging might be the deciding factor with TH being a worry

Fanster wrote:I like Baldwin, but he's still a bit raw and sloppy now and then, I think Owens has the experience over him, and Hibbard has the same, a good RWC run and a succesfull lions tour under his belt, he knows how to win under Gatland.

I think Hibbards scrummaging might be the deciding factor with TH being a worry

Fanster,

Fair one agree with that point but good to know either of them could do the job.

Very much so, if I look at the squad pre kick off and 2 of those 3 names are in the lineup i'm pretty relaxed about hooker.

I'm very much less relaxed about 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 2nd choice options behind what we have right now.

Fanster wrote:Very much so, if I look at the squad pre kick off and 2 of those 3 names are in the lineup i'm pretty relaxed about hooker.

I'm very much less relaxed about 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 2nd choice options behind what we have right now.

6, 8 and 9 I am comfortable with as you could move Sam across and bring Tipuric in. Baker despite being in experienced at this level has proven I think he could hack it likewise Davies at 9.

12 and 13 yeah I agree though I think Dixon and Morgan wouldn't let us down.

T/head is the big concern.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Fanster wrote:Very much so, if I look at the squad pre kick off and 2 of those 3 names are in the lineup i'm pretty relaxed about hooker.

I'm very much less relaxed about 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 2nd choice options behind what we have right now.

6, 8 and 9 I am comfortable with as you could move Sam across and bring Tipuric in.  Baker despite being in experienced at this level has proven I think he could hack it likewise Davies at 9.

12 and 13 yeah I agree though I think Dixon and Morgan wouldn't let us down.

T/head is the big concern.

See I think Lydiate has been off the boil for a little while, and well Warburton hardly plays club rugby, and when he does it's poor from him, almost half hearted.

I would very much worry about Baker and Davies, if Davies gets in ahead of Phillips (shudder). I don't think Dixon or Morgan are anywhere near ready, and I worry North is our centre cover (another shudder)

TH I am less worried about, Lee is a very talented lad, but still inexperienced, I think James would be a better option, and to be honest England will be the key scrum battle to progress through.

The scrum won't be the reason we are beaten by Australia.

I actually think Gatland has pulled another master stroke in getting Francis to commit to Wales. Clearly the guy is talented as even England tried to get him back once they realized he was being targeted by Wales.

For me I reckon the starting 15 will be pretty much be rested against Ireland for the opening friendly during which time he can still select whoever he likes. I suspect we may see Francis starting for Wales in that one. I reckon how some of the people play will likely dictate if they will be selected. So here's what I think will be Wales vs Ireland at home at the MS:-

1 P. James
2 K. Dacey
3 T. Francis
4 B. Davies
5 D. Day
6 J. King
7 J. Tipuric
8 D. Baker

9 G. Davies
10 R. Priestland
11 H. Amos
12 J. Dixon
13 T. Morgan
14 A. Cuthbert
15 G. Anscombe

16 R. Evans
17 A. Jarvis
18 R. Hibbard
19 R. Thornton
20 R. Moriarty
21 M. Phillips
22 J. Hook
23 C. Allen

I also reckon they will probably look at N. Smith, L. Williams, M. Morgan, Patchell, T. James & E. Walker during the away match and probably select between these and the 23 above (but rotated) to gage how everyone goes in those games.

The only ones I really cant see making the cut is R. Jones (Injury) and S. Andrews his replacement. I also think they will probably rest 2 additional players (so 17 in total) which will include Jake Ball and Ken Owens, partly because I think Gats already knows he will take them.

So to summarize I reckon its a straight shoot out in the friendlies between Hibs and Dacey.

I also think they will probably look at Anscome, Patchell and Morgan are probably fighting for the 10/15 utility spot.

Hook's possibly a cover at centre so I reckon he might be fighting both Dixon and Allen for that spot. Personally I reckon Hook's a long shot as well at this stage.

WM,

Unless Ireland pick a massively experimental side like your selection for that game I hope that isn't the side he goes with as we will get stuffed.

He does have to give players a chance but for me that's way to much, I agree about Francis though and I would give him as much game time as possible.

I have heard that there is a deal that we both field second string sides in the away games, so that we both win at home, and neither of us take a confidence knock prior to the RWC..........

(P.S. I am not saying it is fact or anything. Just one that I have heard).

Not sure that there would be an official deal made, but you have to think losing at home would hurt, and trying to win away would be foolish.

You'd expect the away games would be experimental teams.

If there would have been an unofficial deal however it could be dangerous, neither team is likely to start a full 23 in either game, and with plenty of talent on show there is the chance of an upset of the weaker away team taking the win from the perceived stronger home team.

I still think Wales and Ireland were niaive setting these games up, 2 teams of equal ability who could possibly face each other at some point.

bedfordwelsh wrote:WM,

Unless Ireland pick a massively experimental side like your selection for that game I hope that isn't the side he goes with as we will get stuffed.

He does have to give players a chance but for me that's way to much, I agree about Francis though and I would give him as much game time as possible.

Given both these sides can potentially meet in a semi final, I don't see any side giving anything away. I also think Ireland will not turn up to the MS at anywhere near full strength. They too will protect players from action and look at fringe squad players.

Also from my memory generally (unless we are playing the All Blacks), we don't get stuffed. I certainly don't see Ireland putting a cricket score on us even if this was fielded. Personally we have enough strength in depth and given our success over recent years am fairly confident the players wont fear any team. If anything they are playing for their squad places so I don't see Ireland turning up at the MS and us not giving them a game regardless of selection. Gatland would be nuts to go anywhere near full strength in case he loses key players. Equally Ireland can ill afford any injuries to key players so I don't even expect to see Sexton (and a few others) on the plane to Cardiff.

I also don't think the coaches will particularly care about the results of the games and I don't see Ireland using this as anything other than experimental selection and to get the players match fit. I'd imagine more of our first team players coming into contention for the Italy (3rd friendly).

I know in the big picture these games won't mean a lot of winning breeds confidence and that's what we need to build up again.

For me I would like to see something like this

James
Owens
Francis
Davies
Charteris
King (though not his biggest fan)
Baker
Tipuric

Davies
Priestland

Amos
Dixon
Sc Williams
Cuthbert

Hook (again not his biggest fan but just don't see why Anscombe is in squad)

Bench

Smith, Hibbard, Jarvis, Moriarty, Faletau, Phillips, T Morgan, Allen (if fit).

Not saying that's any better than your XV WM or would fair any better just the side I would go for

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know in the big picture these games won't mean a lot of winning breeds confidence and that's what we need to build up again.

For me I would like to see something like this

James
Owens
Francis
Davies
Charteris
King (though not his biggest fan)
Baker
Tipuric

Davies
Priestland

Amos
Dixon
Sc Williams
Cuthbert

Hook (again not his biggest fan but just don't see why Anscombe is in squad)

Bench

Smith, Hibbard, Jarvis, Moriarty, Faletau, Phillips, T Morgan, Allen (if fit).  

Not saying that's any better than your XV WM or would fair any better just the side I would go for

I don't disagree with your sentiment about Anscombe.  The thing for me though I think Hook has been tested at full back already and he didn't really offer any proper attacking threat back there.  Full back / Fly Half Back up will become a straight up test between Morgan / Anscombe / Patchell.  

I wouldn't be totally surprised with them opting for Morgan at 15 because of his pace and skill.  Reckon Anscombe is the front runner there though knowing Gats.  

Hook's only chance is as Centre cover in my opinion.  They may even opt to put him at 12.  That said Gats has always gone for size and power so unless Allen & Dixon have nightmare games, its probably safe to assume Hook will miss out altogether.

The only real thing I cant see happening in that selection you posted is S. Williams at 13.  I just cant see Gats risking him given he has already lost JD.  If JD would have been about he would have played for sure but I see the management putting him on match day gardening leave until the Italy match.  

To be fair I think Gats already know what his starting 15 looks like so this is a chance to look at people outside to see if anyone is able to oust his starting selection.

[quote="Welshmushroom"]

bedfordwelsh wrote:.  

To be fair I think Gats already know what his starting 15 looks like so this is a chance to look at people outside to see if anyone is able to oust his starting selection.

Yeah I would agree with that I think the only uncertain areas in his 1st XV for the big games are possibly hooker and the doubts over Lee and Li Williams.

Everywhere else will be as normal I think, bench may throw up a few options but for the Eng and Aus game if all are fit I expect to see:

Jenkins
Not sure which way he will go here though guessing Hibbard
Lee
AWJ
Charteris
Lydiate
Faletau
Warburton

Webb
Biggar

North
Roberts
Sc Williams
Li Williams

Halfpenny

Welsh mushroom - interesting selection but it seems a bit of a rag-tag team at the moment. I think Gatland will stick with his usual team for all matches, with perhaps 3 or 4 player changes. It's the way he has always been. Plus this years World Cup blueprint comes across as very similar to the 2011 one which seems to back up my assumption.

I rate the dragons backs very highly, but this World Cup might be too soon. If needs be I would be confident with Morgan being thrust into the squad at centre or wing, more so than Dixon. He may be world class some day, he certainly seems to have the potential.

If called upon I don't think either Morgan or Dixon would let us down but I think we will all have fingers crossed that nothing happens to Roberts or Sc Williams before the two big games which is why I think we will see a few of the others used in the warm up and smaller group games.

As ever though it's a juggling act between holding players back and giving them game time.

Anyone know when the squad for the Ireland match is announced ? I don't see us sending out a weak team

I think the question is who takes the places of Lee and L Williams in the warm-up games? If these two are ahead of schedule (Lee already is) then they might make the bench. munkian, I think it will be our best available team. If we are to rest players, wouldn't it most likely be against Italy at home? Our next up game is Uruguay by the way...

The Huge Wenglish prop to replace Lee maybe ? Not hugely concerned about the Irish front row without Healey.

I hope Amos replaces Sanjay on the wing personally but wouldn't be too aggrieved if it were Morgan or Walker.

munkian wrote:The Huge Wenglish prop to replace Lee maybe ? Not hugely concerned about the Irish front row without Healey.

I hope Amos replaces Sanjay on the wing personally but wouldn't be too aggrieved if it were Morgan or Walker.

Cuthbert guarentee'd

Not sure, Cuthbert is well known. Feel it will go to a newbie.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the question is who takes the places of Lee and L Williams in the warm-up games? If these two are ahead of schedule (Lee already is) then they might make the bench. munkian, I think it will be our best available team. If we are to rest players, wouldn't it most likely be against Italy at home? Our next up game is Uruguay by the way...

I think I read on bbc that Lee is only likely to make the Uraguay match not the three build up games.

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the question is who takes the places of Lee and L Williams in the warm-up games? If these two are ahead of schedule (Lee already is) then they might make the bench. munkian, I think it will be our best available team. If we are to rest players, wouldn't it most likely be against Italy at home? Our next up game is Uruguay by the way...

I think I read on bbc that Lee is only likely to make the Uraguay match not the three build up games.

Uruguay is perfect as the 4th warm up game

Gwlad wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the question is who takes the places of Lee and L Williams in the warm-up games? If these two are ahead of schedule (Lee already is) then they might make the bench. munkian, I think it will be our best available team. If we are to rest players, wouldn't it most likely be against Italy at home? Our next up game is Uruguay by the way...

I think I read on bbc that Lee is only likely to make the Uraguay match not the three build up games.

Uruguay is perfect as the 4th warm up game

Not necessarily - its a very close group and other sides will be aiming to put a cricket score on them - could well come down to points difference.

Gatland - Cut down to 38 after the first warm up game.

When you've got a squad of 47 is quite hard to work with, it's a bit more manageable when you cut it down.

A number of younger players will have an opportunity next weekend against Ireland.

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the question is who takes the places of Lee and L Williams in the warm-up games? If these two are ahead of schedule (Lee already is) then they might make the bench. munkian, I think it will be our best available team. If we are to rest players, wouldn't it most likely be against Italy at home? Our next up game is Uruguay by the way...

I think I read on bbc that Lee is only likely to make the Uraguay match not the three build up games.

Uruguay is perfect as the 4th warm up game

Not necessarily - its a very close group and other sides will be aiming to put a cricket score on them - could well come down to points difference.

It's definitely not a warm-up, but given the calibre of Uruguay you can see where he is coming from. Wales might make just a couple changes, but I still expect us to score 60-70+ points. I would probably rest North and Roberts for this game, possibly the halfbacks too. I especially believe our 9, 10, 12 need to be wrapped in cotton wool!

That article about Lee doesn't fill me with any confidence. Yes he might be able to play against Uruguay and it could be an easy run out for him but he is playing in propably the hardest positon on the pitch (i'm sure a lot of scrum halfs and outside halfs would disagree on that though ) and need to be able to sustain the pressure put on his achilies when scrummaging; these injuries take a lot of time and im just a bit concerned. Gatland will know this and I know he won't do anything to put Lee in harms way but these sort of injuries are so bluddy unpredictable.
We can't really afford to take him as an injured players either can we? seing as we can only take 31 players/ 5 of who will be prop.
I'm just praying that Francis can show his premiership form in the warm up matches and stay fit untill the england game because that would be a big worry crossed off

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the question is who takes the places of Lee and L Williams in the warm-up games? If these two are ahead of schedule (Lee already is) then they might make the bench. munkian, I think it will be our best available team. If we are to rest players, wouldn't it most likely be against Italy at home? Our next up game is Uruguay by the way...

I think I read on bbc that Lee is only likely to make the Uraguay match not the three build up games.

Uruguay is perfect as the 4th warm up game

Not necessarily - its a very close group and other sides will be aiming to put a cricket score on them - could well come down to points difference.

It's definitely not a warm-up, but given the calibre of Uruguay you can see where he is coming from. Wales might make just a couple changes, but I still expect us to score 60-70+ points. I would probably rest North and Roberts for this game, possibly the halfbacks too. I especially believe our 9, 10, 12 need to be wrapped in cotton wool!

Our 3rd string should be able to put a tone on these guys. Of course PD is key but i have confidence that we will put them away; expect Tips to start and for us to throw it around all day.

Fanster wrote:

munkian wrote:The Huge Wenglish prop to replace Lee maybe ? Not hugely concerned about the Irish front row without Healey.

I hope Amos replaces Sanjay on the wing personally but wouldn't be too aggrieved if it were Morgan or Walker.

Cuthbert guarentee'd

No need for an apostrophe. And in any case, it's not guaranteed.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Fanster wrote:

munkian wrote:The Huge Wenglish prop to replace Lee maybe ? Not hugely concerned about the Irish front row without Healey.

I hope Amos replaces Sanjay on the wing personally but wouldn't be too aggrieved if it were Morgan or Walker.

Cuthbert guarentee'd

No need for an apostrophe. And in any case, it's not guarantee'd.

Williams took over a season of outperforming Cuthbert before it took Cuthbert a drunken phone throwing for him to get a start, you really think anyones going to ghost in now? No chance!

my starting xv vs Ireland

Smith
Dacey
Francis
Davies
Day
Moriarty
Tipuric
Baker

Davies
Anscombe
Amos
Dixon
T Morgan
Cuthbert
M Morgan

I'd switch out Dacey for Hibbard, Day for Ball, Moriarty for Lydiate, and have Dixon on the wing and Amos at FB.

GavinDragon wrote:my starting xv vs Ireland

Smith
Dacey
Francis
Davies
Day
Moriarty
Tipuric
Baker

Davies
Anscombe
Amos
Dixon
T Morgan
Cuthbert
M Morgan

I can see that beign quite close to the side being selected. If Ireland put out a relatively strong side they will cruise to victory.

Fanster wrote:I'd switch out Dacey for Hibbard, Day for Ball, Moriarty for Lydiate, and have Dixon on the wing and Amos at FB.

Why would you put a centre on the wing?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Fanster wrote:I'd switch out Dacey for Hibbard, Day for Ball, Moriarty for Lydiate, and have Dixon on the wing and Amos at FB.

Why would you put a centre on the wing?

Matthew Morgan will definately not make the squad, Williams is injured and a 2nd choice FB is not guarenteed! Amos may turn out to be that player, Dixon has played on the wing plenty before moving back to centre, why not give him a chance to start?

Why would Gatland play Liam Williams on the wing despite him only playing FB for seasons?

Widen your view, give players a chance, things sometimes work out, especially with the wing options being either injured or Cuthbert!

Dixon is not going to play on the wing in the world cup. So there is no point in playing him out of position. He's an inside centre and perhaps the succesor to a Jamie Roberts type role.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Dixon is not going to play on the wing in the world cup. So there is no point in playing him out of position. He's an inside centre and perhaps the succesor to a Jamie Roberts type role.

He has played more at wing than inside centre trust me, and he's suprisingly quick! He won't travel as a centre option IMO, as Morgn is the better player, and Allan has a bit of inspiration about him, Even Patchell can play 12. Whereas on the wing there is an opening, Amos stands a good chance IMO, Dixon might just be the bolter at wing.

Dixon won't be in the RWC squad as a centre?

PS I'm not a fan of playing a 2nd choice team at all, it disrupts players, and doesn't give the fringe players a platform for success...

I would select a first team then select certain fringe players to include in certain small unit systems.