Which is worse: Djokovic's antics or Nadal's time violation?

CAS wrote:

This is a good video if anyone hasn't seen it, regarding this subject

socal1976 wrote:The  thing I don't understand about the accusations that Nadal uses the lengthy time between serves to regain energy is that in conjunction some of the same critics claim that his principal weapon is his fitness. As BS, already stated on the thread if Nadal's strategy is to grind his opponents into mulch and wear them down with superior fitness he should be in a rush to play as fast as possible and really apply the cardiovascular screws.

The thing that bothers me more is the illegal coaching to be frank. I don't understand why he so flagrantly abuses this rule despite being cited for it over and over again. The thing is that he plays 98 percent of the tour the exact same way. So what are they telling Rafa hit to his backhand?

Matchpoint wrote:

CAS wrote:

This is a good video if anyone hasn't seen it, regarding this subject

Thanks, CAS. What's YOUR view on this video? C'mon, tell us. 

Born Slippy wrote:I would like to see something like golf - with a player been put on the clock first for slow play. That could be by the umpire advising them at a change of ends if they have gone over 25 seconds 3 or more times. Once "on the clock" then the current system kicks in.

Born Slippy wrote:I don't agree with Petchey on this. The rule has been in place throughout these players' careers. It isn't like say in golf where players are having to adjust to not being able to putt in a certain way.

Murray's point is a good one though. How are the players meant to know if they are taking 24 or 26 seconds? It seems to be they suddenly get warnings out of the blue, usually on big points.

I would like to see something like golf - with a player been put on the clock first for slow play. That could be by the umpire advising them at a change of ends if they have gone over 25 seconds 3 or more times. Once "on the clock" then the current system kicks in.

TRuffin wrote:

socal1976 wrote:The  thing I don't understand about the accusations that Nadal uses the lengthy time between serves to regain energy is that in conjunction some of the same critics claim that his principal weapon is his fitness. As BS, already stated on the thread if Nadal's strategy is to grind his opponents into mulch and wear them down with superior fitness he should be in a rush to play as fast as possible and really apply the cardiovascular screws.

The thing that bothers me more is the illegal coaching to be frank. I don't understand why he so flagrantly abuses this rule despite being cited for it over and over again. The thing is that he plays 98 percent of the tour the exact same way. So what are they telling Rafa hit to his backhand?

Isn't that the reason nAdal has given for not liking the time rule though?  I'm going from memory here but I remember when there was a lot of talk in ealry 2013 about enforcing the rule that nadal said that the fans wanted to see his top tennis and long rallies and it wasn't possible to do so without longer rests than allowed.  I even remember nadal fans getting some grief from Djoko fans becaue Djoko said in a presser that he knew he was one of the ones people talk about as being slower, but if the atp was enforcing the rule then he had no problem playing faster,  while nadal shortly after in his presser used their long AO Match as a reason why they shouldnt play faster.  
I can't recall nadal ever saying his rituals were why he played slow, it's always about resting or needing time to recover from tough points.   Now as others say, I certainly think the rituals and tics are real, and it's not fair for some to say they are made up. What i see though, they don't take up much time. It's what he does with the rest of the time he has that is the issue.

I also don't think your looking at the why would he want to rest when he's also giving the other guy a rest angle correctly.  Ali was well known for laying on the ropes to rest and also clinching to get a rest.  He knew he would give the other fighter a rest to- especially clinching- but Ali's theory was any rest he got would help him much more than the other guy because Ali's level was alway higher. He'd rather feel better and be able to flurry his punches than caring if the other guy felt Better too- becaue Ali felt his best flurries which were only capable when he had some breath and oxygen recovery was going to beat out the other guy no matter if that guy got a break too.    I would think nadal would feel that with his superior fitness anyway- any advantage he would get from a break is going to be more than the other guy can get.  It may even be mental-  if he thinks he can keep his best tennis up with longer breaks- thats prob most improtnst to him because like fed, like djoko- most of his matches are on his racquet.  As long he produces near his best, he feels he will win.

socal1976 wrote:

TRuffin wrote:

socal1976 wrote:The  thing I don't understand about the accusations that Nadal uses the lengthy time between serves to regain energy is that in conjunction some of the same critics claim that his principal weapon is his fitness. As BS, already stated on the thread if Nadal's strategy is to grind his opponents into mulch and wear them down with superior fitness he should be in a rush to play as fast as possible and really apply the cardiovascular screws.

The thing that bothers me more is the illegal coaching to be frank. I don't understand why he so flagrantly abuses this rule despite being cited for it over and over again. The thing is that he plays 98 percent of the tour the exact same way. So what are they telling Rafa hit to his backhand?

Isn't that the reason nAdal has given for not liking the time rule though?  I'm going from memory here but I remember when there was a lot of talk in ealry 2013 about enforcing the rule that nadal said that the fans wanted to see his top tennis and long rallies and it wasn't possible to do so without longer rests than allowed.  I even remember nadal fans getting some grief from Djoko fans becaue Djoko said in a presser that he knew he was one of the ones people talk about as being slower, but if the atp was enforcing the rule then he had no problem playing faster,  while nadal shortly after in his presser used their long AO Match as a reason why they shouldnt play faster.  
I can't recall nadal ever saying his rituals were why he played slow, it's always about resting or needing time to recover from tough points.   Now as others say, I certainly think the rituals and tics are real, and it's not fair for some to say they are made up. What i see though, they don't take up much time. It's what he does with the rest of the time he has that is the issue.

I also don't think your looking at the why would he want to rest when he's also giving the other guy a rest angle correctly.  Ali was well known for laying on the ropes to rest and also clinching to get a rest.  He knew he would give the other fighter a rest to- especially clinching- but Ali's theory was any rest he got would help him much more than the other guy because Ali's level was alway higher. He'd rather feel better and be able to flurry his punches than caring if the other guy felt Better too- becaue Ali felt his best flurries which were only capable when he had some breath and oxygen recovery was going to beat out the other guy no matter if that guy got a break too.    I would think nadal would feel that with his superior fitness anyway- any advantage he would get from a break is going to be more than the other guy can get.  It may even be mental-  if he thinks he can keep his best tennis up with longer breaks- thats prob most improtnst to him because like fed, like djoko- most of his matches are on his racquet.  As long he produces near his best, he feels he will win.

I don't buy it that the reason is the fitness issue. The Ali analogy is a little misleading in that Ali later in his career did the dope a rope in one specific fight against Frazier. That wasn't his style from his youth, it developed later on in his career as a result of fighting a big strong guy in the heat of Africa. It simply isn't an apples to apples comparison. If you are fitter physically, and that is what we hear about Nadal is that he survives by physically grinding down your opponents you would also recover faster from cardiovascular exertion and the exertion involved in a long point would impact you less than other players on tour. That is kind of the definition of physical fitness. You can't simultaneously claim Nadal is super fit and then claim that he needs more time to recover than his opponents after every point.

Nadal wins the vast majority of his matches from the first set on. Even against players who he has clearly overmatched he still takes a long time between points and often gets warned. And regarding those comments about needing longer time between points I think Djokovic said the same thing that sometimes after a long rally the umpire should use discretion but that he had no problem and would follow the rule. I think for Nadal he likes to do things his way and he likes to do things out of habit. That is also why I think he just disregards the coaching rule when it doesn't suit him. I mean what benefit does he get from the coaching? He plays 99 percent of the tour exactly the same way for the last few years. I mean what is his coaching going to tell him tactically, "Rafa hit to his backhand with your forehand, or kick your serve to his backhand". I think he has gotten used to taking his time that is how he feels comfortable playing and he wants to do it his way.

CAS wrote:
to be completely honest I'm torn, I think 55 seconds is crazy to spend that much time between the next point, however look how much the crowd enjoyed that point and all the replays shown after. The crowd didn't seem to care how long he took and thats the most important thing. This is where I think umpires need to use common sense, if its 15-15 at 3-3 in the first set, its different at 5-5 in the 3rd set after a 30 stroke rally.

I heard Petchey say something interesting, chuck the rule out the window for now but enforce it in the juniors so the new generation do it, its harsh to enforce it on players who have played a certain way their whole lives.

That being said, I don't like it when it's done on purpose, and I do feel Rafa does sometimes as well as others but not ALL the time

CAS wrote:
In the final yesterday I actually did hear the umpire warn Berdych on the changeover, "Tomas you are going over the 25 seconds"
"By how much?"
"3 seconds on 3 occasions"
Berdych nods his head in approval, that needs to happen much more often