Which is worse: Djokovic's antics or Nadal's time violation?

by Matchpoint Fri 17 Apr 2015, 8:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

In anticipation of their blockbuster semi encounter tomorrow, I thought it might be fun to revisit these two very different temper and time-between-point issues specific to Djokovic and Nadal.

We know that Djokovic apologised for his most recent outburst in Miami, which was actually aimed at at his team at the stands but had given the ball boy, who happened to be nearby, a terrific fright. Djokovic was savvy enough to know that although he didn't mean to hurt anyone, not least the ball boy, his totally loss of emotional control on the court reflected badly on him as the world's #1 tennis player. Thus he went out of his way to make peace with himself and the fans by announcing a very public apology to the boy and the boy's parents. Good.

But Nadal is still unable to play within the time rule and has become very agitated by the time constrain, often scolding and arguing with the umpires mid-match. (I heard the umpire gave him 3 time warnings today?) Not good. I personally think a lot of Nadal's downfall today is due to his inability to comply and make peace with said rule, which didn't bother him at all until a few years ago.

Defend or criticise as you see fit, I invite you to air your views. Thanks. thumbsup

by LuvSports! Sat 18 Apr 2015, 7:18 pm

Careful BB, the rafa fans will get you!

by bogbrush Sat 18 Apr 2015, 7:46 pm

It's only plain truth which, if we're honest, everyone knows.

by temporary21 Sat 18 Apr 2015, 8:51 pm

but hes more physically fit... and hes giving his usually physically weaker guys the same time to recover. He'd be more at an advantage rushing them, plus ive never seen him sucking it up during his service motion. It doesnt make much, if any sense to me. I have seen OCD though.

Fact is, it only bothers most people who dont like him for other reasons, neutrals barely ever notice it, theyre too busy watching the tennis.

by Josiah Maiestas Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:04 pm

Neutrals or sympathisers?

by bogbrush Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:04 pm

No, his muscle mass demands oxygen replenishment more urgently. A guy like Djokovic for example could play fast and long. Nadal needs the time.
That said, he's only following his orders. Perhaps he could play faster but it was decided that he would benefit from more time so Toni decreed he change his preparation and, as he has with everything else, Nadal has followed instructions to the letter.

As for neutrals, great to hear we have a handle on their opinions, though I have to say a few tennis "casuals" I know think it all takes too long to stay interested. A lady I sat next to at the 2010 Wimbledon final thought it was ridiculous, and she wasn't a tennis follower.

by temporary21 Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:09 pm

Youre both welcome to argue it amongst yourselves but I dont buy it. His ticks aren't symptomatic of just a time waster.
To this day I have never noticed any of these things, including Novaks ball bouncing, until someone pointed them out as a serious problem. As far as Im concerned the tennis speaks for itself, the buck stops there with me

by bogbrush Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:22 pm

We're not arguing, we're in agreement.

by Jahu Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:35 pm

I think Fed once said it quite loudly to DJoko, maybe at an AO match: come on, thats 15 or 20 ball bounces (not sure exact number, but it was big number) and Djoko did it in a few points on a row.

by It Must Be Love Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:40 pm

Djokovic had an argument with the umpire after a few games about it, he stood his ground and said the umpire needed to apply 'common sense' instead of criticising Djokovic.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:41 pm

temporary21 wrote:Fact is, it only bothers people who dont like him for other reasons

That's not true - it's pretty much the only thing that bothers me about Rafa, but it bothers me quite a lot. More likely it's just that if I criticise it, people think I must dislike him for other reasons.

by It Must Be Love Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:43 pm

Obviously I don't think what Temporary is saying applies to everyone, but it probably applies to the vast majority, let's be honest.

by bogbrush Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:49 pm

i really don't think that's the case to be honest.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:49 pm

I'm not that bothered about the vast majority - I'm just saying that it's not a fact, and I'd rather not have it attributed to me.

by It Must Be Love Sat 18 Apr 2015, 9:51 pm

OK, we'll agree to disagree.

by Jahu Sat 18 Apr 2015, 10:03 pm

Same here, I like Rafa as a player and the original moonballer/grinder, but hate his time wasting scratching and digging.

by Matchpoint Sat 18 Apr 2015, 10:06 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:The Djokovic and ballboy incident is a non-event to my mind.

He didn't scream at a ballboy, he screamed and made a nearby ballboy jump. If the ballboy hadn't been there, I doubt anyone would have given the moment a second thought.

Novak's screaming doesn't really bother me. I think the racquet smashing is much worse. His hitting a ball in the direction of a linesman in the Karlovic match was completely unacceptable. He could justifiably have been disqualified for that.

In answer to the OP, I don't see a lot between the two behaviours. Both stem in some degree from a lack of self-control, both are done to give the individual an advantage (I think Novak venting and Rafa's routines help clear their minds).

Novak's behaviour sets a more obviously worse example but probably doesn't affect his opponent a great deal. Rafa's behaviour is more subtle but probably has a bigger effect on an opponent.

The thing in the preceding discussion that I really don't agree with is the idea that Rafa is somehow compelled by OCD to do these things.

Rafa does not have OCD. He is perhaps a bit obsessive about order and routine but that is not OCD.

Novak used to spend an age bouncing the ball before serving but he's cut that out in recent years.

Rafa could cut out all those 'tics' if he wanted but I think he is just not that bothered about them. We know he doesn't like the 20/25 second rule on serving, and I doubt he gives it much thought.

I think you're right that Djokovic didn't mean to scare the boy. He screamed and gesticulated towards the stands. The boy happened to be caught at the crossfire. (NB: I amended the OP accordingly).

Nevertheless, even if you don't, Djokovic himself took the matter seriously. He deemed your "non-event" important enough to warrant a very public and detailed apology where he repeatedly said sorry to the boy and the boy's parents as well. You must have seen his lengthy video-taped apology speech here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3028301/Tennis-star-Novak-Djokovic-publicly-apologises-ball-boy-parents-youngster-caught-outburst-lost-set-against-Andy-Murray.html

Oh, I see a lot between the 2 behaviours. I think of them in terms of the polarising development of their respective careers. I would say in the case of Djokovic, he has better damage-control skill. So overall, his outbursts haven't had a negative impact at all on his tennis achievements, but by contrast, Nadal has serious difficulty dealing with the time rule and consequently his TV issues has become the root factor bringing down
his game and thus the ranking. (I have hinted at this in the OP.)

I'm inclined to agree with the rest of your post, except that Nadal should give more consideration to the time rule not because fans don't like it, but because the time warnings are killing him and his tennis.

by bogbrush Sat 18 Apr 2015, 10:31 pm

I think the shout is a non-event in terms of a misdemeanour because it was unintentional but he was right to apologise for the effect, that's just manners.

If you think the time rule is killing Nadals tennis you find yourself siding with Tenez who always said Nadal wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful had he played within the rules.

by HM Murdock Sat 18 Apr 2015, 10:55 pm

I remember after the Australian Open final in 2012, Djokovic spoke quite openly about trying to buy some more time to get some more air.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

It's breaking a rule, so it's cheating.

But if there has been a sequence of long rallies, I'm not sure it's realistic to be strict on the 20 second rule. I'd rather see the tennis stay at a decent level than collapse in a spate of errors from exhausted players.

The counter argument is that players should be more adept at ending rallies quicker, be better at hitting winners.

There's some merit in that but I question how possible that is on a slow surface with a great defender at the other end of the court.

To which some might say that surfaces should be sped up, and there is merit in that too.

But I don't want to see the end of slow courts. We need more faster courts to enable the shot makers and the attacking skills to prosper but I still want to see surfaces that enable great defenders to do their thing too.

I feel with the 20 sec serve rule that there are circumstances where it should be relaxed. But then it's not a rule anymore.

So that's a long post from me, with no conclusion.

I told you I wasn't sure how I felt about it!

by It Must Be Love Sat 18 Apr 2015, 10:58 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:I remember after the Australian Open final in 2012, Djokovic spoke quite openly about trying to buy some more time to get some more air.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

It's breaking a rule, so it's cheating.

But if there has been a sequence of long rallies, I'm not sure it's realistic to be strict on the 20 second rule. I'd rather see the tennis stay at a decent level than collapse in a spate of errors from exhausted players.

The counter argument is that players should be more adept at ending rallies quicker, be better at hitting winners.

There's some merit in that but I question how possible that is on a slow surface with a great defender at the other end of the court.

To which some might say that surfaces should be sped up, and there is merit in that too.

But I don't want to see the end of slow courts. We need more faster courts to enable the shot makers and the attacking skills to prosper but I still want to see surfaces that enable great defenders to do their thing too.

I feel with the 20 sec serve rule that there are circumstances where it should be relaxed. But then it's not a rule anymore.

So that's a long post from me, with no conclusion.

I told you I wasn't sure how I felt about it!

I think it should be a guideline, and the umpire should apply it with common sense at his discretion.

by TRuffin Sat 18 Apr 2015, 11:02 pm

If it was OCD compulsion though he would not be able to control it. Yet he does... In one game yesterday- he did all his tics,etc and got to the line and served within 17 seconds. After a 5 or 6 shot rally in same game, he did his same tics, then slowed down, toweled off longer and bounced the ball more times and took 30 seconds. That's him controlling the time he's taking not OCD. The times he was warned were well past 30 seconds as well.

Today, he had no issues with the times that I saw. After one unreturnable serve, he just stepped back up to the line after given the balls, picked his shorts, ran his finger on each side of his forehead and served. As quick as Federer takes to serve- prob 10-15 seconds max. IF it was OCD or something he can't control- he would not be able to break the compulsion and at will serve quicker.

It's the opposite of what you guys claim he has. He wavers his times based on how long the rallies are, how tired he is, what the score is, whether he wants to delay the opponent, whether he wants to rush the opponent. That is willful control of what he's doing between points. He might have tics and rituals but they are done within seconds.. Beyond that- if he breaks the rule- he's breaking it because he wants to.

by temporary21 Sat 18 Apr 2015, 11:12 pm

but he still did his tics? Then its still OCD, he went through them quicker because he was probably aware of his time. After a while though he probably does slow down and forget, and it wanders

Remember, this is assuming that he knows exactly how long he is taking every time, something Murray mentioned he often only has a very vague idea about.

If the ATP wants to crack down then do so, fair enough, until then im not going to pretend to be outraged when someone, when tired loses their timing and takes what 5 more seconds? I mean 5 seconds...

Its either hes a poor baby, or some sort of serial cheat whos only good because the extra 5 seconds allows him to magically recover all his tiredness from his hulk like limbs. The truth, as per usual, is probably something fair more reasonable,

by temporary21 Sat 18 Apr 2015, 11:29 pm

I'm just a little tired of this war of extremes. It's been so long since theres been a nice easy conversation...

by LuvSports! Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:11 am

Ye but how boring is that.

by TRuffin Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:51 am

[quote="temporary21"]but he still did his tics? Then its still OCD, "

This is not necessarily true- just because someone has tics or habit does not make it Ocd, just like someone who has a beer everynigjt is not an alcoholic. Frankly, I've bit my tongue in this discussion because my younger brother was severely crippled by OCD to the point he could no longer work and my parents and later I had to support him. It was a miserable life(started before people even knew about OCD or how to treat it. Certainly there are mild forms of it, but to my knowledge Nadal nor anyone in his camp has ever claimed he has OCD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Probably 75% of top athletes I've ever known had rituals, tics, superstitions just as obvious or severe as Nadals and a tiny % would be diagnosed with the mental disorder OCD. In the absence of someone in the know saying he is afflicted with OCD, i think it trivializes what this disorder does to people to see fans saying is should be pitied and how sad it is he can't stay within the time limits rules.

The only facts we know is he can stay within the time rules or close enough to not get warned as he's done so in countless matches. He did so today. We know his actual tics whether OCD or not do not take up even near the time limit he has to serve. we know he seems to be able to pick and choose the moments he takes the most time.

by bogbrush Sun 19 Apr 2015, 7:19 am

It sounds from your use of past tense that your brother overcame the problem. I hope that's the case.

In the same way, if Rafa had this mildest expression of OCD, and it was causing him harm in the game, I'm sure they could overcome it.

It's clear to me that far from inadvertently causing the delay, it's a device to regulate time. Sure, he can run through fast if he wants but more usually the ritual forces him to calm his heartbeat and let his muscles recover, ready for the extraordinary effort required to put all those revs on the ball. That they developed the rituals to hide delaying behind an affliction is a touch distasteful, but like I say he follows orders to the letter.

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 8:41 am

bogbrush wrote:they developed the rituals

Interesting. Source?

I'm beginning to feel very sorry for Nadal. He's stuck and can't think outside the box Toni molded for him.

by Jahu Sun 19 Apr 2015, 9:11 am

Yes, Nadal has been confined to Toni's strict regime growing up like a robot.

Though with all that money, I'm not feeling sorry for him at all Laugh

He can compensate and buy anything he missed growing up.

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 9:34 am

you can keep the money. Give me back my freedom to think for myself and be my own boss. thumbsup

But mind you, he can still beat most today playing like a robot. Cheer power and endurance just not good enough vs Djokovic.

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 9:50 am

And to add his nagging TV issues during every match now only makes things worse for the clay king, imo.

by Born Slippy Sun 19 Apr 2015, 9:57 am

bogbrush wrote:It sounds from your use of past tense that your brother overcame the problem. I hope that's the case.

In the same way, if Rafa had this mildest expression of OCD, and it was causing him harm in the game, I'm sure they could overcome it.

It's clear to me that far from inadvertently causing the delay, it's a device to regulate time. Sure, he can run through fast if he wants but more usually the ritual forces him to calm his heartbeat and let his muscles recover, ready for the extraordinary effort required to put all those revs on the ball. That they developed the rituals to hide delaying behind an affliction is a touch distasteful, but like I say he follows orders to the letter.

Agree with most of that. Generally I don't think its physical though. Given he is clearly far fitter than 99% of players, it would make more sense for him to play quickly and avoid them having a chance to recover. It always seems to me he takes far longer in crucial games/points - hence why that tends to be when he gets most warnings.

by LuvSports! Sun 19 Apr 2015, 10:44 am

Matchpoint wrote:
bogbrush wrote:they developed the rituals
Interesting. Source?

I'm beginning to feel very sorry for Nadal. He's stuck and can't think outside the box Toni molded for him.

Here he picks his shorts now and again.... that's it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX30JIMNITk

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 11:48 am

Thanks. I don't know the details of Nadal's early history. The video you posted still doesn't tell us if it's true his team actually "developed the routine".

Do you know when he added the hair and shirt fixing routines?

by LuvSports! Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:15 pm

I know he began to get slower between points but in wimby 08 he was barely doing much and aus 09.
He deffo had it for wimby '10. So in between there I guess.

by It Must Be Love Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:19 pm

There's no evidence that Nadal's team developed the rituals, absolutely none whatsoever.
And these tics do develop, and they're harder to get rid off than people here seem to think. One success story doesn't mean everyone has the same experience.

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:24 pm

I got a really REALLY far-fetched hunch. I know it sounds crazy, but when I see Nadal's routine touching his nose (after picking his pants) and then going right and left (fixing hair) across his head and than across his shoulders (fixing shirt)' it looks so much like he's simulating the Sign of the Cross: ..."or blessing oneself or crossing oneself, is a ritual blessing made by members of many branches of Christianity. This blessing is made by the tracing of an upright cross or + across the body with the right hand..."
Given the depth of Spain's Christian roots and Nadal's own well-known superstition, I'm thinking the origin of his routine might have been based on a religious motif and motive.

by Jahu Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:30 pm

Only a rich Shangi-La guest with an permanent apartment there, can come up with a religious 4 Point Cross that Nadal does Laugh

The bottles he plays with, must be related to Devil and the Gate to Hell Yahoo

Not bad MP, a worthy add on to Rafas analysis thumbsup

by It Must Be Love Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:36 pm

Matchpoint wrote:I got a really REALLY far-fetched hunch. I know it sounds crazy, but when I see Nadal's routine touching his nose (after picking his pants) and then going right and left (fixing hair) across his head and than across his shoulders (fixing shirt)' it looks so much like he's simulating the Sign of the Cross: ..."or blessing oneself or crossing oneself, is a ritual blessing made by members of many branches of Christianity. This blessing is made by the tracing of an upright cross or + across the body with the right hand..."
Given the depth of Spain's Christian roots and Nadal's own well-known superstition, I'm thinking the origin of his routine might have been based on a religious motif and motive.

Nadal is an atheist.

by Jahu Sun 19 Apr 2015, 12:39 pm

No, he is Agnostic.

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 1:01 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
Matchpoint wrote:I got a really REALLY far-fetched hunch. I know it sounds crazy, but when I see Nadal's routine touching his nose (after picking his pants) and then going right and left (fixing hair) across his head and than across his shoulders (fixing shirt)' it looks so much like he's simulating the Sign of the Cross: ..."or blessing oneself or crossing oneself, is a ritual blessing made by members of many branches of Christianity. This blessing is made by the tracing of an upright cross or + across the body with the right hand..."
Given the depth of Spain's Christian roots and Nadal's own well-known superstition, I'm thinking the origin of his routine might have been based on a religious motif and motive.
Nadal is an atheist.

Blame his uncle/coach. Toni made him do it! Laugh

by TRuffin Sun 19 Apr 2015, 1:45 pm

bogbrush wrote:It sounds from your use of past tense that your brother overcame the problem. I hope that's the case.

In the same way, if Rafa had this mildest expression of OCD, and it was causing him harm in the game, I'm sure they could overcome it.

It's clear to me that far from inadvertently causing the delay, it's a device to regulate time. Sure, he can run through fast if he wants but more usually the ritual forces him to calm his heartbeat and let his muscles recover, ready for the extraordinary effort required to put all those revs on the ball. That they developed the rituals to hide delaying behind an affliction is a touch distasteful, but like I say he follows orders to the letter.

No, he passed away, but thanks for the sentiment.

by LuvSports! Sun 19 Apr 2015, 2:24 pm

Really sorry to hear that Truffin.

by temporary21 Sun 19 Apr 2015, 2:32 pm

My condolences Truff, that must have been awful.
I used to have pretty nasty OCD and anxiety, it took medication and years for me to finally control mine. Nowadays I only have minor things like checking the door is locked a few times, things I can deal with, but it can be awful.

To that end you would perhaps then understand why I find the suggestion that someone who displays tics outside of his service rythme, his bottles his warmup ritual etc, must be deliberately faking it all and planning it, and cheating just to get an extra 3 seconds of time profoundly offensive.

I think I will take my leave of this conversation permanently, it has left a very nasty taste in my mouth.

All the best Truff, Ill see you all when Madrid shuffles itself along.

by Matchpoint Sun 19 Apr 2015, 3:36 pm

P.E.A.C.E

by Haddie-nuff Sun 19 Apr 2015, 3:38 pm

My condolences to Truffin.. my cousin almost committed suicide because of her OCD. I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

I too find this offensive that there is the suggestion if not accusation that this is a plan to cheat.

Rafa has so many friends among the players on tour.Including Federer are you seriously suggesting these players would wish to be friends OFF COURT with a man who wishes to cheat them on.??? There are those on here who leap at the chance of accusing Rafa of cheating because of his time violation. This thread has become a Nadal bashing thread and nothing else.. that was I believe the intention.
Show me where he has ever thrown a bottle at ball girl, yelled at a ball boy or smashed a racquet. No those misdemeanours are not discussed I see and far more serious in my opinion.

I too will leave you to your cynical twisted opinion. I hope you never have to live or see OCD at close quarters ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

by It Must Be Love Sun 19 Apr 2015, 3:42 pm

temporary21 wrote:My condolences Truff, that must have been awful.
I used to have pretty nasty OCD and anxiety, it took medication and years for me to finally control mine. Nowadays I only have minor things like checking the door is locked a few times, things I can deal with, but it can be awful.

To that end you would perhaps then understand why I find the suggestion that someone who displays tics outside of his service rythme, his bottles his warmup ritual etc, must be deliberately faking it all and planning it, and cheating just to get an extra 3 seconds of time profoundly offensive.

I think I will take my leave of this conversation permanently, it has left a very nasty taste in my mouth.

All the best Truff, Ill see you all when Madrid shuffles itself along.

+1

by Jahu Sun 19 Apr 2015, 3:47 pm

Truff, keep it up buddy thumbsup

by CAS Sun 19 Apr 2015, 4:15 pm

This is a good video if anyone hasn't seen it, regarding this subject

by TRuffin Sun 19 Apr 2015, 4:24 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:My condolences to Truffin.. my cousin almost committed suicide because of her OCD. I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

I too find this offensive that there is the suggestion if not accusation that this is a plan to cheat.

Rafa has so many friends among the players on tour.Including Federer are you seriously suggesting these players would wish to be friends OFF COURT with a man who wishes to cheat them on.??? There are those on here who leap at the chance of accusing Rafa of cheating because of his time violation. This thread has become a Nadal bashing thread and nothing else.. that was I believe the intention.
Show me where he has ever thrown a bottle at ball girl, yelled at a ball boy or smashed a racquet. No those misdemeanours are not discussed I see and far more serious in my opinion.

I too will leave you to your cynical twisted opinion. I hope you never have to live or see OCD at close quarters ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you! Sorry to hear about your cousin as well.

I'm a little confused though- the first line of well wishes is to me, but the next lines aren't directed to me are they? I never said any of those things you are talkong about.

by Haddie-nuff Sun 19 Apr 2015, 4:31 pm

OH NO

I should have made it clearer, it was really following on from what Temp
said ..I just feel so offended by the accusations made on here that I
didn't realise it could be misinterpreted..forgive me

by TRuffin Sun 19 Apr 2015, 6:04 pm

no problem haddie- thanks

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