AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by yappysnap Wed 29 Apr - 10:44

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

by Irish Londoner Wed 29 Apr - 10:51

In other news, turkeys decide that Christmas is not a good idea, Pope remains committed to Catholic religion, etc.

Was any other outcome expected ?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 11:21

This is chuffing pathetic if true. Whatever the real state of affairs, trying to cover it up only makes it look worse.

It is because of the lack of transparency that we get speculation and rumours that probably far exaggerate the situations.

how badly must Sarries, if this is true, have broken the cap for such a cover up to be needed? Surely it means they were so far over that the points deduction would have seen them finish outside the Top6. How can we believe they will be complying next season?

If I was a Saints fan I would be furious. unlike Saracens their team operates at a profit. Keeping to the salary cap means their squad depth is not as good as others, and leads them to at times look knackered. Perhaps they shoudl just cheat instead.

Angry, so effing angry.

by Jimpy Wed 29 Apr - 11:33

yappysnap wrote:It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

I do know it was Bath as well, and they were told to get their house in order PDQ. I suspect that Craig et al have a lot of influence with PRL and a quiet word to curb them - for now - was thought in order.

Personally, I think it a harbinger of the free-for-all to come if Craig gets his way.

by TJ Wed 29 Apr - 11:49

And you are surprised? its been obvious for ages the salary cap is ignored by some if not many clubs and they want to do away with it all together. The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

by king_carlos Wed 29 Apr - 11:50

It does make me question whether the investigation revealed a more wide spread abuse of the cap from many teams with Saracens and one other (3 guesses...) the worst offenders hence them being named.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr - 11:59

Probably shot themselves in the foot with this as it damages image and leads to more, possibly unfounded, accusations. The viewpoint of TJ reveals alot, and will probably lead to more views that the English and the related oraganisations are evil.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 12:03

Well we are used to balanced, open-minded views from him and his ilk.

by nathan Wed 29 Apr - 12:04

TJ wrote:And you are surprised? its been obvious for ages the salary cap is ignored by some if not many clubs and they want to do away with it all together. The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

Proof?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 12:07

Please do not quote him Sad

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 12:07

TJ wrote: The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

As much as this looks like a cover up, Irish rugby is far more toxic to the NH than the PRL.

by Guest Wed 29 Apr - 12:09

I agree, the PRL have shot themselves in the foot.

I don't agree that it leads to views that the English are evil. Just a few within PRL....

I am fairly certain that Sarries and Bath have been spending over the cap. Why else would the AP vote to block? Because any findings will damage the reputation, and bargaining power, of the AP says it all. People aren't stupid.

by Guest Wed 29 Apr - 12:11

Chunky Norwich wrote:
TJ wrote: The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

As much as this looks like a cover up, Irish rugby is far more toxic to the NH than the PRL.

Oh Chunky. Grow up you child.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 12:12

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
TJ wrote: The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

As much as this looks like a cover up, Irish rugby is far more toxic to the NH than the PRL.

Oh Chunky. Grow up you child.

Why am I a child? Someone throws an accusation, I throw one back. If you don't like it don't read it. Name calling just exhibits your intelligence level.

by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr - 12:17

The real issue I see is that the 'Investigation Block' is a virtual 007 licence to 'Carry On'. If an Investigation runs contrary to the Welfare of the League today then it can be argued that it runs contrary to the League's best interests next year, and the year after. When would it be in the interests of fair play within the League to investigate a suspected Cap dodge? Never? If the answer is 'never' then the cap is already dead in principle as much as the practical.

That's all the ingredients some of the owners need to push on now and call for a complete end to the 'joke' salary cap that isn't even being enforced. The guys that were under suspicion will ironically use this result to strengthen their arguments. It won't coax them to be quiet or to stop stretching the cap limits.

by nathan Wed 29 Apr - 12:17

Full article:

From The Times:
Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.
Sources have claimed that the proposal was introduced as part of the same package of measures that includes the potential expansion of the Premiership and the scrapping of relegation from the 2016-17 season. The package was given the backing of all but two Premiership clubs at a meeting of shareholders in February, with Harlequins and Wasps the only clubs voting against the deal.
According to regulations, recommended penalties for breaches of the £5 million salary cap should range from four points for a minor breach to 40 points for a breach in excess of £250,000. For penalties to be effective in the present season, a decision on potential breaches has to be reached before the final round of matches, which is scheduled for May 16.
The suspension of investigations would enable clubs to escape a penalty this season. With two rounds of the regular season remaining, Saracens are in third place, two points ahead of Leicester Tigers and three points clear of Exeter Chiefs in a desperately tight battle for the top four play-off places. Any potential points deductions might have affected their ability to qualify for the semi-finals and to claim the top-six place that would ensure qualification for next season’s European Champions Cup. “They’re trying to sweep it under the carpet,” one source told The Times.
A number of clubs are adamant, though, that the investigation into potential salary-cap breaches will be revisited, possibly as soon as the summer. Equally, Premiership Rugby, the competition organiser, declined to comment on whether investigations had been suspended, but reaffirmed that any clubs found to have committed breaches would be made public.
Premiership Rugby said: “We don’t make any comment on any salary-cap investigations which might or might not be occurring. But to be clear there is no amnesty under Salary Cap arrangements. The Salary Cap system is an integral part of Premiership Rugby and has the support of our clubs.”
Plans to discuss the expansion of the league from 12 to 14 clubs and to abandon relegation have been publicly confirmed, but the salary-cap process remains confidential, although claims that the spending of Saracens and one other club was under investigation were made in December.
Around the same time, Ed Griffiths, the Saracens chief executive, called for the abolition of the salary cap, claiming that he had the support of six other clubs, but no other club have voiced their support in public. Saracens announced last month that Griffiths would be leaving the club at the end of the season “to pursue new opportunities”.
Nigel Wray, the Saracens chairman, has spoken more recently of his opposition to the salary cap in its present form and confirmed to The Times that the investigation has been postponed. “There is certainly no investigation at the moment,” Wray said. “I don’t know if there will be one in the future.”
Asked whether the postponement was to prevent bad publicity for the Premiership, Wray said: “I think that is a perfectly fair analysis. We are trying to build the game, build the sponsorship, build the TV rights.”
This month, the Premiership completed a record four-year extension to its broadcasting deal with BT Sport. The Premiership’s website proclaims the benefits that the salary cap brings to ensure financial viability of clubs and the competitiveness of the league.
The support of all Premiership clubs, plus Bristol, Worcester Warriors and Yorkshire Carnegie, the second tier clubs who remain shareholders, is required before plans can be agreed as policy. An amnesty was agreed in 2008 for historic breaches, but Premiership Rugby has pledged that there would be transparency over any new breaches.
Reports of salary cap investigations have created doubts in the mind of supporters over just how level the Premiership playing field may be and the suspension of investigations will do nothing to ease those doubts.

by TJ Wed 29 Apr - 12:18

As munchkin realises my statement was not an attack on the english - it was an attack on the prl. Its rather lazy to suggest an Englishman with an english name and accent (Me) hates the English.

During all the debate about the european cup it was obvious to many how toxic the PRL are. many of us said that the salary cap would be challenged and ignored and relegation and promotion ended and we are right.

Some of you still fail to realise that the PRL as personified by Craig and Wray are not in this for the good of Rugby or even their clubs - they are in it for their own glory and bank balance and do not care about anything else at all. this is why they are toxic to NH rugby

by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr - 12:18

Chunky Norwich wrote:
TJ wrote: The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

As much as this looks like a cover up, Irish rugby is far more toxic to the NH than the PRL.

God, I'm starting to enjoy Chunky's brand of dry humour.

by Guest Wed 29 Apr - 12:18

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
TJ wrote: The PRL are toxic to NH rugby - its about time the fans realised this.

As much as this looks like a cover up, Irish rugby is far more toxic to the NH than the PRL.

Oh Chunky. Grow up you child.

Why am I a child? Someone throws an accusation, I throw one back. If you don't like it don't read it. Name calling just exhibits your intelligence level.

Maybe because in just about every thread you post on you whinge about the Irish, even when it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. You're a troll.

by TJ Wed 29 Apr - 12:19

And best ignored Munckiin. basic rule - don't feed the trolls

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 12:25

TJ wrote:And best ignored Munckiin. basic rule - don't feed the trolls

This is good advice.

by nathan Wed 29 Apr - 12:27

So from reading the full article it looks like clubs have agreed to suspend the investigation - not end it.

If that is the case (this might all be made up for a news story) they had better restart the investigation.

by Guest Wed 29 Apr - 12:27

True, TJ. I usually have fun with it. Not today mad

Maybe I just need a cup of tea angel

by The Saint Wed 29 Apr - 12:38

The plot thickens.... Where is Steve Walsh when you need him?

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 12:47

So who were the clubs that voted for the suspension?

Bath
Saracens
Saints

which other 4?

by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr - 12:57

Chunky Norwich wrote:So who were the clubs that voted for the suspension?

Bath
Saracens
Saints

which other 4?

The four that recently bought four brand new Industrial Shredders. The four where lights have been seen on late into the nights. The four that had their Admin Heads sell off their top of the range Mercs and replace them with Toyota Yarises during the last few weeks. Wink

Them four.

by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr - 13:00

I said this before, when the row over Europe was erupting, and I will say this again, the next thing that will be the subject of attack will be the 6N. The clubs/PRL/LNR are getting too big for their boots, more money means more power, they will try and dictate when the 6N should be played so that it does not affect the clubs, and they will start influencing what players the national squad can use, they will then start demanding more money from the 6N as it uses "their" players and they have a bigger audience blah, blah, blah. They will destroy European rugby.

by HammerofThunor Wed 29 Apr - 13:01

What happens if found guilty after May 16th? Do they start next season with potentially -40 points?

As for the salary cap, it's a PRL thing. If they majority of them want it higher...they raise it. If they want it scrapped...they scrap it. Neither of these things damage the image of the league. Keeping it and ignoring it is just stupid (that DOES damage the image). Of course it's not clear what has actually happened yet. Was it suspended this year to save Saracens and Bath (if it's Bath)? Or did they realise they couldn't finish the investigation properly by May 16th and specified the findings couldn't be put forward to affect this season, so they've decided not to rush it?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr - 13:01

TJ wrote:As munchkin realises my statement was not an attack on the english - it was an attack on the prl. Its rather lazy to suggest an Englishman with an english name and accent (Me) hates the English.

During all the debate about the european cup it was obvious to many how toxic the PRL are. many of us said that the salary cap would be challenged and ignored and relegation and promotion ended and we are right.

Some of you still fail to realise that the PRL as personified by Craig and Wray are not in this for the good of Rugby or even their clubs - they are in it for their own glory and bank balance and do not care about anything else at all. this is why they are toxic to NH rugby

Maybe a bit lazy but there's far too many people on here who take that view. Scotland supporter aren't you interesting you consider yourself an Englishman. The PRL clearly isn't the Empire from star wars and the Pro 12 are all goody goody, bit of balance every now and again is always welcome.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 13:10

Leicester's salary costs for the year ended June 2014.

£8,195,000 covering 191 fte staff. 118 playing and coaching (includes academy and physios) and 73 Admin and support.

How much of that was paid to the 50 man squad as covered by the cap plus marquee player is anyones guess.

by TJ Wed 29 Apr - 13:20

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:As munchkin realises my statement was not an attack on the english - it was an attack on the prl. Its rather lazy to suggest an Englishman with an english name and accent (Me) hates the English.

During all the debate about the european cup it was obvious to many how toxic the PRL are. many of us said that the salary cap would be challenged and ignored and relegation and promotion ended and we are right.

Some of you still fail to realise that the PRL as personified by Craig and Wray are not in this for the good of Rugby or even their clubs - they are in it for their own glory and bank balance and do not care about anything else at all. this is why they are toxic to NH rugby

Maybe a bit lazy but there's far too many people on here who take that view. Scotland supporter aren't you interesting you consider yourself an Englishman. The PRL clearly isn't the Empire from star wars and the Pro 12 are all goody goody, bit of balance every now and again is always welcome.

Scotland supporter. Brit by nationality, Scotland is my home, English by birth

The PRL are completely toxic to the wider interests of European rugby

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 13:23

No 7&1/2 wrote:The PRL clearly isn't the Empire from star wars and the Pro 12 are all goody goody, bit of balance every now and again is always welcome.

That is one poster you will never get a balanced view from.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 13:23

HammerofThunor wrote:What happens if found guilty after May 16th? Do they start next season with potentially -40 points?

As for the salary cap, it's a PRL thing. If they majority of them want it higher...they raise it. If they want it scrapped...they scrap it. Neither of these things damage the image of the league. Keeping it and ignoring it is just stupid (that DOES damage the image). Of course it's not clear what has actually happened yet. Was it suspended this year to save Saracens and Bath (if it's Bath)? Or did they realise they couldn't finish the investigation properly by May 16th and specified the findings couldn't be put forward to affect this season, so they've decided not to rush it?

Why would the clubs get a vote if that were the case?

I note that PRL still haven't confirmed that any of this is true.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr - 13:24

You should probably be supporting England if you consider yourself English.

To be fair how are the Pro 12 looking out for English rugby exactly? How are the PRL toxic?

by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr - 13:30

After thinking about this Bath must be seriously sailing close to the wind. What with Sam Burgess on a reported 500k a year, Priestland going there for a reported 300k per year, Niko Matawalu signing for next season. They have got to be stretching the rules, surely ?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 13:37

Burgess is this years Marquee so can be ignored. Priestland probably next years - though if he is on that amount I would be truly astonished.

by SecretFly Wed 29 Apr - 13:48

No 7&1/2 wrote:You should probably be supporting England if you consider yourself English.

To be fair how are the Pro 12 looking out for English rugby exactly? How are the PRL toxic?

He IS English, 7&1/2. He's not saying he thinks he's English. He's as English as any other English man who lives 'abroad'..... Bloody David Beckham is creating a football team in Florida! The weasel traitor Wink

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr - 13:53

I have a friend who was born and bred in Leeds and considers himself a Welshman. He's not a traitor but also doesn't use the fact he's got an English name as some way to 'prove' he's not biased against all things English. Hence my sentence on whether TJ considers himself English or whether he's just using the fact he was born here as some sort of protection against accusations of bias.

by TJ Wed 29 Apr - 13:58

No 7&1/2 wrote:You should probably be supporting England if you consider yourself English.

To be fair how are the Pro 12 looking out for English rugby exactly? How are the PRL toxic?

I don't consider myself English - did you actually bother to read what I wrote for you - and you cannnot change what is in your heart.

pro 12 as they are mainly union run look out for the wider interests of rugby - the club game, player welfare and wishes ( see matowalo being released to play for Fiji - not one english club released it players)

How are the PRL toxic - the continual empahsis on the AP only - and begger the rest. The concentration of power and money into a few hands. The putting tyhe4 international game second - see their blackmail over the WC and the damage done to the european cup

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 14:02

TJ wrote:
pro 12 as they are mainly union run look out for the wider interests of rugby

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Apr - 14:10

TJ wrote: ( see matowalo being released to play for Fiji - not one english club released it players)

I usually ignore you, as you are incapable of holding a balanced view on things English Club Rugby based.

However when you choose to lie, I have to respond.

http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/240809.html

Could I point to the men starting at 13 and 11.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Apr - 14:13

TJ, I read it but as you mention the fact you're an Englishman as defence against accusing you of being anti English in your stance, it starts to confuse the issue. See above LTs post. Bit wide of the mark?

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 14:21

LondonTiger wrote:
TJ wrote: ( see matowalo being released to play for Fiji - not one english club released it players)

I usually ignore you, as you are incapable of holding a balanced view on things English Club Rugby based.

However when you choose to lie, I have to respond.

http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/240809.html

Could I point to the men starting at 13 and 11.

The dope also doesn't realise that USA agreed this with the RFU.

http://tier2rugby.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/usa-get-prl-player-release-agreement.html

by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr - 14:26

LondonTiger wrote:Burgess is this years Marquee so can be ignored. Priestland probably next years - though if he is on that amount I would be truly astonished.

This is the only thing I can find reported:-

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/550587/Rugby-union-salary-cap-joke-Steve-Diamond

That one says that Priestland will be on 300k per year.

This one says that Burgess is on 500k per year:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10645003/England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-backs-Sam-Burgess-to-challenge-for-World-Cup-squad.html

I know they are only newspapers, but unless I either ask the players themselves or look at Baths wage bill, that is all I have to go by, that is why I used the words reportedly.

by The Great Aukster Wed 29 Apr - 14:48

This is a problem for all rugby supporters from whatever league or nationality.

Why did Wasps and Quins not support the block? Could that have been related to their finishing positions this season? Quins could have ended up in the ERC Cup possibly and that has to be worth a lot of money to them.

Why aren't those teams who have stayed under the cap not pointing the finger at those who are and shouting 'unfair'? I don't know if London Welsh were under the cap or not but it is fairly likely to assume they were, so could they claim that they were at an unfair disadvantage and the rules of the league did nothing to protect them? Should they sue the PRL for abiding by it's rules when it's patently obvious that others haven't and the PRL have ignored the situation. Are the PRL hoping to get such incongruities delayed until it is too late for anyone to do much about it?

If the supposed moral high ground is in equality and everyone having an equal chance then this whole season's AP is devalued because it hasn't been a level playing field. Covering up the extent of how unlevel it is just reinforces the idea that there is no fairness or transparency.

This devalues the good name of rugby in sponsors eyes irrespective of what country or League they happen to subscribe to, especially in the cross-league European competition. If some AP teams have qualified unfairly at someone else's expense then the teams they play against are tarnished by association.

Further than this the RFU who obviously want to support a cap to encourage local player development must find it galling that some teams are treating them with so little respect - and by extension the National team that is relying on the exposure of indigenous talent at club level.

The IRB should really be stepping in to avoid the game being brought into disrepute like this by insisting that the PRL abides by its own rules and produces accounts for them of the relative adherence by all the individual clubs.

by Irish Londoner Wed 29 Apr - 14:53

What is going to suffer is the integrity of the game - whilst I don't mind London Irish getting a stuffing from a team better than us - there's quite a few of them Very Happy

, I do mind very much getting stuffed by a team that has to cheat to do so.
Let's not be mealy mouthed here - any club that has breached the salary cap are cheats - they have stolen points, league position, cup places and revenue from other teams and should be penalised accordingly.
I'm old school in regard to rugby and a great believer in the maxim on the field that "it's not cheating unless the referee says it is" however the other half of that is "when you are caught you put your hands up and say 'sorry sir' and not whinge about it".
That certain clubs and chairmen/owners appear to want it brushed under the carpet becuase it might affect TV deals and their public image says everything about what has gone wrong in the game.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 14:54

The Great Aukster wrote: I don't know if London Welsh were under the cap or not but it is fairly likely to assume they were, so could they claim that they were at an unfair disadvantage and the rules of the league did nothing to protect them? Should they sue the PRL for abiding by it's rules when it's patently obvious that others haven't and the PRL have ignored the situation. Are the PRL hoping to get such incongruities delayed until it is too late for anyone to do much about it?

My guess is that London Welsh didn't even have a vote. Are they a member PRL club?

If the supposed moral high ground is in equality and everyone having an equal chance then this whole season's AP is devalued because it hasn't been a level playing field. Covering up the extent of how unlevel it is just reinforces the idea that there is no fairness or transparency.

This devalues the good name of rugby in sponsors eyes irrespective of what country or League they happen to subscribe to, especially in the cross-league European competition. If some AP teams have qualified unfairly at someone else's expense then the teams they play against are tarnished by association.

Further than this the RFU who obviously want to support a cap to encourage local player development must find it galling that some teams are treating them with so little respect - and by extension the National team that is relying on the exposure of indigenous talent at club level.

The IRB should really be stepping in to avoid the game being brought into disrepute like this by insisting that the PRL abides by its own rules and produces accounts for them of the relative adherence by all the individual clubs.

I do agree though that this stinks a bit.

by LordDowlais Wed 29 Apr - 14:56

Irish Londoner wrote:That certain clubs and chairmen/owners appear to want it brushed under the carpet becuase it might affect TV deals and their public image says everything about what has gone wrong in the game.

Only in England mind. Wink

Where are all the people who were supporting the PRL during the European fight ? Are they still going to stand by them over this ?

by Irish Londoner Wed 29 Apr - 14:57

The Great Aukster wrote:I don't know if London Welsh were under the cap or not but it is fairly likely to assume they were, so could they claim that they were at an unfair disadvantage and the rules of the league did nothing to protect them?.

If I was the chairman of LW I'd be on to "m'learned friends" this very morning proposing exactly that.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 29 Apr - 14:59

LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:That certain clubs and chairmen/owners appear to want it brushed under the carpet becuase it might affect TV deals and their public image says everything about what has gone wrong in the game.

Only in England mind.

Where are all the people who were supporting the PRL during the European fight ? Are they still going to stand by them over this ?

What's this got to do with the European competition?

by Sponsored content