AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

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It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

Chunky Norwich wrote:What's this got to do with the European competition?

It was the PRL that signed the deal with BT, and it was them that wanted the change in how we qualify for Europe, they were backed right up to the hilt by certain posters back then, are the same people going to back them now, over this ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:What's this got to do with the European competition?

It was the PRL that signed the deal with BT, and it was them that wanted the change in how we qualify for Europe, they were backed right up to the hilt by certain posters back then, are the same people going to back them now, over this ?

Why are the 2 things mutually inclusive?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are the 2 things mutually inclusive?

Because I want to know if the supporters of the PRL are still on their side, after they argued so staunchly last time, are they still going to back their organisation up after this latest debacle ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are the 2 things mutually inclusive?

Because I want to know if the supporters of the PRL are still on their side, after they argued so staunchly last time, are they still going to back their organisation up after this latest debacle ?

I supported PRL through the Euro crisis, but think this is a bad news day for them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I supported PRL through the Euro crisis, but think this is a bad news day for them.

For me Chunk, this is just another one to add to their list of lies. The European cup is a joke, there is still no big sponsors, the second tier cup is a bigger joke, and we are not all swimming in £50 notes like they promised. These lot are going to ruin European rugby along with the LNR, I hope the rest of us can survive the aftermath after they have finished doing all they can to ruin the game.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are the 2 things mutually inclusive?

Because I want to know if the supporters of the PRL are still on their side, after they argued so staunchly last time, are they still going to back their organisation up after this latest debacle ?

Latest debacle? There has been 1 report in 1 paper about this, surely you are going to wait for some more information or a conformation before jumping on the bandwagon?

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:I supported PRL through the Euro crisis, but think this is a bad news day for them.

For me Chunk, this is just another one to add to their list of lies. The European cup is a joke, there is still no big sponsors, the second tier cup is a bigger joke, and we are not all swimming in £50 notes like they promised. These lot are going to ruin European rugby along with the LNR, I hope the rest of us can survive the aftermath after they have finished doing all they can to ruin the game.

I personally think that is very short term thinking. It will be eaiser to compare 3 years down the line.

nathan wrote:Latest debacle? There has been 1 report in 1 paper about this, surely you are going to wait for some more information or a conformation before jumping on the bandwagon?

Yes, ok fair enough, but I am just going on the article you posted on here from the Times, they are pretty reliable aren't they, well, at worst they are the best of a bad bunch when it comes to writing the truth.

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:Latest debacle? There has been 1 report in 1 paper about this, surely you are going to wait for some more information or a conformation before jumping on the bandwagon?

Yes, ok fair enough, but I am just going on the article you posted on here from the Times, they are pretty reliable aren't they, well, at worst they are the best of a bad bunch when it comes to writing the truth.

best of a bad bunch isn't really a glowing review of journalists, lets be honest they all lie at times. I would rather we all wait for a bit more information before some start a slagging match (which i see a few have already)

Chunky Norwich wrote:I personally think that is very short term thinking. It will be eaiser to compare 3 years down the line.

But they were telling us it would be instantly better, the second tier would be more competitive, blah,blah, blah. Not once did they say, give us a few years and we promise it will be better, they were telling us more money than what you get now, straight away, it was a lie, and the CC this year has been rubbish.

nathan wrote:best of a bad bunch isn't really a glowing review of journalists, lets be honest they all lie at times. I would rather we all wait for a bit more information before some start a slagging match (which i see a few have already)

Nathan, to be honest, I do not care who breaks the rules in YOUR league, if certain clubs want to flounce the rules then so be it, it does not affect my teams, but what irks me is, I think these organisations are getting a little bit too big for their boots, and potentially what might have happened here is hard evidence of it. Trust me they will not stop here, the 6N will be the next thing they wade into.

I don't think the champions cup has been rubbish at all. If Saracens had scored another 5 points last week then Twickenham would be a sell out. I personally saw and attended some very good games.

As for "wading into the 6N" - that's just speculation. I am not sure what PRL could do to a tournament protected by World Rugby Ltd.

I backed the PRL stance on Europe, and if true I denounce their stance on this. I do not have to agree with everything that they do.

Chunky Norwich wrote:As for "wading into the 6N" - that's just speculation. I am not sure what PRL could do to a tournament protected by World Rugby Ltd.

It was all speculation when we were saying that they would end up wanting to scrap the salary cap, look what is happening now, also, when we said they would want to scrap relegation, there have been rumblings about that as well.

I predict now, in a few years time, these power hungry organisations will be calling for more money from the 6N as more people watch "their" players. They will want the 6N moved to alternative dates, because it is disrupting their clubs at the start of the year, Autumn internationals will be gone as they will get fed up of releasing players for them, unless they get more money, that is when these organisations will kill the European game.

I agree the unions needed a shake up, but we should never have let these organisations become as powerful as they are today, these organisations will end up running the game, and the unions will become a thing of the past, well, in England and in France, but they will hold the rest of us to ransom, and ALL our rugby will suffer.

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:best of a bad bunch isn't really a glowing review of journalists, lets be honest they all lie at times. I would rather we all wait for a bit more information before some start a slagging match (which i see a few have already)

Nathan, to be honest, I do not care who breaks the rules in YOUR league, if certain clubs want to flounce the rules then so be it, it does not affect my teams, but what irks me is, I think these organisations are getting a little bit too big for their boots, and potentially what might have happened here is hard evidence of it. Trust me they will not stop here, the 6N will be the next thing they wade into.

I do not see how you relate the PRL suspending (note, that the wording is suspending and not cancelling) an investigation into one of the members of its own organisation as them getting too big for their boots and it being hard evidence.

Then you go onto mention the 6 nations, it has absolutely nothing to do with it!

Chunky Norwich wrote:If Saracens had scored another 5 points last week then Twickenham would be a sell out

And if "IF" was a donkey we would all have a ride.

See we can all do speculation.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:As for "wading into the 6N" - that's just speculation. I am not sure what PRL could do to a tournament protected by World Rugby Ltd.

It was all speculation when we were saying that they would end up wanting to scrap the salary cap, look what is happening now, also, when we said they would want to scrap relegation, there have been rumblings about that as well.

I predict now, in a few years time, these power hungry organisations will be calling for more money from the 6N as more people watch "their" players. They will want the 6N moved to alternative dates, because it is disrupting their clubs at the start of the year, Autumn internationals will be gone as they will get fed up of releasing players for them, unless they get more money, that is when these organisations will kill the European game.

I agree the unions needed a shake up, but we should never have let these organisations become as powerful as they are today, these organisations will end up running the game, and the unions will become a thing of the past, well, in England and in France, but they will hold the rest of us to ransom, and ALL our rugby will suffer.

What has happened now? We've had clubs say they would be against scrapping the salary cap. Just because they have supposedly asked PRL to suspend investigating into breaches doesn't mean they want the cap gone.

You are jumping to far to many conclusions to meet your already made up opinion.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:If Saracens had scored another 5 points last week then Twickenham would be a sell out

And if "IF" was a donkey we would all have a ride.

See we can all do speculation.

Speculation huh!

nathan wrote: do not see how you relate the PRL suspending (note, that the wording is suspending and not cancelling) an investigation into one of the members of its own organisation as them getting too big for their boots and it being hard evidence.

Because, if it is true, it means they have the power to cover up cheating. That alone is too much power if you ask me.

LordDowlais wrote:

It was all speculation when we were saying that they would end up wanting to scrap the salary cap, look what is happening now, also, when we said they would want to scrap relegation, there have been rumblings about that as well.

It's their competition. They have that right.

I predict now, in a few years time, these power hungry organisations will be calling for more money from the 6N as more people watch "their" players. They will want the 6N moved to alternative dates, because it is disrupting their clubs at the start of the year, Autumn internationals will be gone as they will get fed up of releasing players for them, unless they get more money, that is when these organisations will kill the European game.

Then it's up to world rugby to counter it.

I agree the unions needed a shake up, but we should never have let these organisations become as powerful as they are today, these organisations will end up running the game, and the unions will become a thing of the past, well, in England and in France, but they will hold the rest of us to ransom, and ALL our rugby will suffer.

Disagree. These organisations are sorely needed to wrestle out the blazers that hold back the game.

Anyway, that's enough from me, I will wait to see what the outcome of this is in a few years/decades time.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It was all speculation when we were saying that they would end up wanting to scrap the salary cap, look what is happening now, also, when we said they would want to scrap relegation, there have been rumblings about that as well.

It's their competition. They have that right.

I predict now, in a few years time, these power hungry organisations will be calling for more money from the 6N as more people watch "their" players. They will want the 6N moved to alternative dates, because it is disrupting their clubs at the start of the year, Autumn internationals will be gone as they will get fed up of releasing players for them, unless they get more money, that is when these organisations will kill the European game.

Then it's up to world rugby to counter it.

I agree the unions needed a shake up, but we should never have let these organisations become as powerful as they are today, these organisations will end up running the game, and the unions will become a thing of the past, well, in England and in France, but they will hold the rest of us to ransom, and ALL our rugby will suffer.

Disagree. These organisations are sorely needed to wrestle out the blazers that hold back the game.

Yet those same blazers manage the most successful (financially) rugby tournament in the world - the 6Ns. (not to mention the Lions Tour)!

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are the 2 things mutually inclusive?

Because I want to know if the supporters of the PRL are still on their side, after they argued so staunchly last time, are they still going to back their organisation up after this latest debacle ?

Latest debacle? There has been 1 report in 1 paper about this, surely you are going to wait for some more information or a conformation before jumping on the bandwagon?

You hardly think Rees, Clery, Kitson and co are going to have a go at their bread and butter. They are all in BT Sport back pocket. As they say over on this side of the water, they 'took the soup and dropped the 'O'.''

We can only hope that the eRFU grows a pair when the World Cup is over. In the meantime a South African owned club is dictating how rugby is run in England. Those guys would never get the same chance to do what they are doing in their own country.

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote: do not see how you relate the PRL suspending (note, that the wording is suspending and not cancelling) an investigation into one of the members of its own organisation as them getting too big for their boots and it being hard evidence.

Because, if it is true, it means they have the power to cover up cheating. That alone is too much power if you ask me.

They have the power to cover up cheating their self imposed rules? And that's too much power? It's not too much power, it's stupidity (if that is what's was done).

As for your wise predictions

1) The same people have been talking about scrapping the cap for years and years. The fact you said they would it, after they had already done, does not make you insightful when they do it again. The point that was raised was that the cap was self imposed and if they wanted rid of it they wouldn't have it. they have it because most of those involved want to keep it.

b) The same people have been talking about scrapping relegation for years and years. Same as above except it's not up to them. Most of the comments about this was that it's no surprise if they (or part) wanted to do it but it's not up to them.

III) Can't remember

Sin é, how much work does the 6 nations require? What's changed in the last decade? Or since the 6 nations began? Or is their masterful management just not doing anything? Other than the Friday night games, which by most accounts are horrific for travelling fans.

Who's the eRFU? If you mean the English RFU then it's just RFU. The ERFU is the Egyption Rugby Football Union and you're just adding confusion. And here comes to wonderful Rees bashing (unless he says something you agree with, then he's bang on).

HammerofThunor wrote:They have the power to cover up cheating their self imposed rules? And that's too much power? It's not too much power, it's stupidity (if that is what's was done).

Hammer,if they are self imposed rules, then it is up to them to enforce them, not suspend any breaching of them, it does not matter who made the rules, they were all agreed to, if they were broken, then they should be investigated and punished accordingly, you cannot make up rules then decide not to enforce them, this just shows the PRL for what they really are about.

If true, its hardly a surprise, English rugby always had its sights set on taking on the top 14, and their big money spending. The PRL is doing what many of us thought would happen (and were told by many posters would not happen) and that's fine, the sweetness of "i told you so" is nothing compared to the bitterness of being right about this.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é, how much work does the 6 nations require? What's changed in the last decade? Or since the 6 nations began? Or is their masterful management just not doing anything?  Other than the Friday night games, which by most accounts are horrific for travelling fans.

Who's the eRFU? If you mean the English RFU then it's just RFU.  The ERFU is the Egyption Rugby Football Union and you're just adding confusion. And here comes to wonderful Rees bashing (unless he says something you agree with, then he's bang on).

The 6Ns makes as much money for the 6Ns rugby unions as the World Cup makes for World Rugby (IRB).

The masterful management earn about e90m per year (tax free) through tv & sponsorship) which is split between the 6 Unions. They also have merit payments - i.e., 5th in the tournament gets 0.598m and 6th gets about half that to prevent the teams from doing a French 'couldn't be bothered' on it.

As for Rees bashing - I'll apologise for misjudging him when/if he reports it.

As for Friday nights - its what the fans want

edit: they obviously make it all look easy ... so easy that your boys thought they could emulate them with their smash and grab of the European Cup.

Not so easy now, is it?

edit again: it was reported in Irish media that the IRFU made 20m from this last 6Ns - 16m media & sponsorship and 4m as prize money. Each international game was worth 3.2m alone to the IRFU (and that excludes ticket sales etc. ).

Not bad, is it?

LordDowlais wrote:

Because I want to know if the supporters of the PRL are still on their side, after they argued so staunchly last time, are they still going to back their organisation up after this latest debacle ?

Well you see most mature people are capable of deciding to back someone up based purely on the merits of their argument. In fact the idea of being a supporter of an organisation like the PRL is a bit strange to me.

I'm confident most posters will look at all the information available when making up their minds, not on some prior opinions of the PRL. I only wish I could trust you to do the same.

It's almost as if the PRL is devoid of any principles. I'd even go so far as to say that I wouldn't like them to have any control over how European rugby is run.

It's probably a much simpler explanation.  

The investigation was getting nowhere but the consultants running the investigation knew they couldn't finish the process in time for the May 16 deadline. So some bright spark said - the investigation is going nowhere, but has to be completed - let's postpone its completion until the summer rather than unfairly taint the league in the eyes of potential backers/sponsors, etc which would affect ALL of us.

Ok - let's vote.  All in favour?  Carried.

This is the bit of the report that interested me most:

".....The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended...... Sources have claimed that the proposal was introduced as part of the same package of measures that includes the potential expansion of the Premiership and the scrapping of relegation from the 2016-17 season. The package was given the backing of all but two Premiership clubs at a meeting of shareholders in February, with Harlequins and Wasps the only clubs voting against the deal."

So does that mean the proposal to postpone the investigation was voted on in February?  Or the proposal to investigate was voted on in February?

LondonTiger wrote:This is chuffing pathetic if true. Whatever the real state of affairs, trying to cover it up only makes it look worse.

It is because of the lack of transparency that we get speculation and rumours that probably far exaggerate the situations.

how badly must Sarries, if this is true, have broken the cap for such a cover up to be needed? Surely it means they were so far over that the points deduction would have seen them finish outside the Top6. How can we believe they will be complying next season?

If I was a Saints fan I would be furious. unlike Saracens their team operates at a profit. Keeping to the salary cap means their squad depth is not as good as others, and leads them to at times look knackered. Perhaps they should just cheat instead.

Angry, so effing angry.

I am prepared to spare being royally cranked off for the moment against the (naive) possibility there is a rational explanation.  But it better come soon and be totally clear and honest.  Otherwise, it's exactly as you said, frustrated and pissedoff.  And this move does make the Premiership overall look stupid and small.  Openness and transparency are the key.  

Hypothetically, if Saracens and Bath were the two teams implicated, that would change the playoff picture dramatically.  And drop them out of the top Euro competition next season.  But I can't imagine their success is so critical for the success of the league that they can skirt being revealed publicly and punished in accordance with the agreed penalties.  Hypothetically, mind.

The Times is running an article (behind paywall) which claims that the players are furious -

Leading professional rugby players in England reacted with incredulity yesterday to the news that the investigation into a possible breach of the salary cap by Saracens had been officially suspended at the highest level. It was said that breaking the salary cap was little different to taking performance-enhancing drugs.

It also says that the reason why the inquiry was dropped is because Saracens are going to test the legality of the having a salary cap system in the first place!

It also says that the PRL clubs voted to suspend the enquiry back in February.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4426534.ece

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why are the 2 things mutually inclusive?

Because I want to know if the supporters of the PRL are still on their side, after they argued so staunchly last time, are they still going to back their organisation up after this latest debacle ?

This is a good point. Many of us predicted that something like this would happen along with getting rid of relegation

TJ wrote:
This is a good point.  Many of us predicted that something like this would happen along with getting rid of relegation

Read back and you would find out. You would also find evidence that English clubs did release fijian players, despite your allegations they did not.

Did you see the links I gave you regarding Bath LT ?

LondonTiger wrote:

TJ wrote:
This is a good point.  Many of us predicted that something like this would happen along with getting rid of relegation

Read back and you would find out. You would also find evidence that English clubs did release fijian players, despite your allegations they did not.

I apologise for getting that wrong. I know some fijians were not released as the game was outside the international window and that there were many complaints at the time.

The Times' article suggests that the proposals also include the expansion of the Premiership to 14 teams. The players already play too many games and I don't think most AP playing squads would survive an extra 4 games per season. The squads will have to be bigger hence a higher salary cap. In addition the cash from the extended broadcasting deal has to go somewhere.

LondonTiger wrote:

If I was a Saints fan I would be furious. unlike Saracens their team operates at a profit. Keeping to the salary cap means their squad depth is not as good as others, and leads them to at times look knackered. Perhaps they shoudl just cheat instead.
.

How do you know Saints don't keep to the salary cap? Just because they make a profit doesn't mean they spend less than those that make a loss.

TJ wrote:
I apologise for getting that wrong.  I know some fijians were not released as the game was outside the international window and that there were many complaints at the time.

What are they complaining about if ti is outside the international window?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

If I was a Saints fan I would be furious. unlike Saracens their team operates at a profit. Keeping to the salary cap means their squad depth is not as good as others, and leads them to at times look knackered. Perhaps they shoudl just cheat instead.
.

How do you know Saints don't keep to the salary cap? Just because they make a profit doesn't mean they spend less than those that make a loss.

I believe they spend up to the Cap and no higher. I believe they would spend more if the rules permitted, and could do so as they make a profit.

Of course the Cap effectively increases by £1m for next season as it is.

LondonTiger wrote:

I believe they spend up to the Cap and no higher. I believe they would spend more if the rules permitted, and could do so as they make a profit.

Of course the Cap effectively increases by £1m for next season as it is.

Is this from a "source" or just a guess?

LondonTiger wrote:I backed the PRL stance on Europe, and if true I denounce their stance on this. I do not have to agree with everything that they do.

However, I do think it's fair to say the PRL have the public relations skill of an atom bomb.  They could screw up a wet dream.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I backed the PRL stance on Europe, and if true I denounce their stance on this. I do not have to agree with everything that they do.

However, I do think it's fair to say the PRL have the public relations skill of an atom bomb.  They could screw up a wet dream.

Perhaps they are not the ultra professionals people would have us believe.

LordDowlais wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I backed the PRL stance on Europe, and if true I denounce their stance on this. I do not have to agree with everything that they do.

However, I do think it's fair to say the PRL have the public relations skill of an atom bomb.  They could screw up a wet dream.

Perhaps they are not the ultra professionals people would have us believe.

C'mon, mate.  You think Rugby almost anywhere is managed by hard core professional sports businessmen?  
Working with NFL teams and some other sports (on occasion) I see what real big time sport is like.  We have a long, long way to go.  

I see the benefits of openness in contracts, injuries, etc., which are a hallmark of American sport.  This is needed in Rugby, especially since it is a business which is still developing.  With that level of openness so much nonsense would not happen.

doctor_grey wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I backed the PRL stance on Europe, and if true I denounce their stance on this. I do not have to agree with everything that they do.

However, I do think it's fair to say the PRL have the public relations skill of an atom bomb.  They could screw up a wet dream.

Perhaps they are not the ultra professionals people would have us believe.

C'mon, mate.  You think Rugby almost anywhere is managed by hard core professional sports businessmen?  
Working with NFL teams and some other sports (on occasion) I see what real big time sport is like.  We have a long, long way to go.  

I see the benefits of openness in contracts, injuries, etc., which are a hallmark of American sport.  This is needed in Rugby, especially since it is a business which is still developing.  With that level of openness so much nonsense would not happen.

I am only going on what I was told by the supporters of the PRL on here when they brokered a brand new deal for Europe with BT. I was told how amateurish the unions were and how modern an professional the PRL were. Where are we now? No big sponsors for the CC, a crap European competition both 1st and 2nd tier, and no extra ££££££'s that we are only supposed to be swimming in, the PRL are the ones that look like amateurs at the moment.

Why can't people see beyond this childish we're always right you're always wrong viewpoint?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why can't people see beyond this childish we're always right you're always wrong viewpoint?

Why can't people see that the PRL has been highjacked by a couple of spivs who are hellbent on destroying the sport of rugby and turning into a cheap imitation of premiership soccer?

This is what the Players Union has to say about the salary cap:

Damian Hopley, the chief executive of the Rugby Players’ Association (RPA), said yesterday that feedback from his members had been heavy, that there was a sense of “huge frustration” and that “the news has been met with incredulity”.

“Everyone buys into the principle of the salary cap, we recognise its worth and the purpose it is serving for English rugby,” Hopley said. “So there is a sense that people might be cheating. We’ve had comments from leading players in the Premiership that breaking the salary cap is akin to being on the field with someone who is taking performance-enhancing supplements. It’s just not fair: either you play by the rules or you don’t.

“There is a growing sense of frustration amongst the players. We talk about the values of rugby, well there needs to be mutual respect here about what we are all buying into.

“We want transparency and accountability across everything that we do. As the players are held accountable every weekend in front of the viewers and the fans in the grounds, we want to make sure that is the same across the industry.”

Yeah the view that the PRL are out to destroy rugby. Just silly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah the view that the PRL are out to destroy rugby

I would not say they were out to destroy rugby, I would say they will end up destroying it the way they are going, they have already buggered up our European competitions, they will now turn the AP into the French league, and look how that is working for the French national side.

The PRL are getting too powerful too quickly, they need to be reigned in a little before they do more damage than what can be repaired.