AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by yappysnap Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

by **Rugby Fan** Sun May 17, 2015 7:21 pm

If that report is accurate, I'm interested in the idea that no-one knows who is under investigation, and the only reason Saracens had been identified, is because Edward Griffiths admitted it.

Shortly afterwards, Edward Griffiths was no longer CEO of Saracens, in a move widely regarded as a sacking. It's entirely possible the club's owners decided his admission had been an unforgivable mistake.

by doctor_grey Sun May 17, 2015 7:57 pm

Hard to know what any of this means, even if everything in the report is accurate. And there arfe no guarantees of accuracy. Just because the vote was unanimous, it does not mean there was agreement. Just a temporary cessation of hostilities. And from what I hear, the hostilities are simmering just a hair below the surface.

by Guest Sun May 17, 2015 8:18 pm

Well if the report is accurate then it does appear that certain of the bigger clubs have bullied others into submission. Even if only in the short term for a couple of clubs.
I was mistaken in how I interpreted the talk about certain clubs entering talks with Irish clubs about a break-away league. I had thought some of the smaller clubs had looked at the possibility at of setting up a B&I to break away from the power of the stronger clubs. So it looks like, if true, that it is the stronger clubs using the threat of setting up a B&I as a stick to beat the smaller clubs into submission. I am against a B&I in any case, but especially so if it means entering into a partnership with bullying thugs, also meaning that those smaller clubs fighting against them have been crushed. Totally wrong.

Although it's suggested the reason some clubs voted with Craig/Wray because they also might be under investigation, it doesn't ring true for me. I think he just pulled that one out of the air. Time will tell.

Wray claimed his club wasn't under investigation. According to Griffiths account Wray is a liar.

Shock.....

by nathan Sun May 17, 2015 8:24 pm

Bullying thugs is a bit of a stretch, you should get a job at the Dailey mail Wink

by Guest Sun May 17, 2015 8:30 pm

If the story is true, then 'bullying thugs' is right on the money. How can you say otherwise? Maybe you think that behaviour is acceptable?

by HammerofThunor Sun May 17, 2015 8:34 pm

Munchkin, Wray said that after the investigation had been suspended. Technically not lying.

If the salary cap is illegal then it needs sorting. Otherwise there is no point having it.

by Guest Sun May 17, 2015 8:37 pm

I watched the interview, Hammer. Wray said that the club was not under investigation. If they were under investigation then he has lied, even if he's playing with words and the investigation into the club had been suspended.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun May 17, 2015 8:59 pm

Munchkin wrote:I watched the interview, Hammer. Wray said that the club was not under investigation. If they were under investigation then he has lied, even if he's playing with words and the investigation into the club had been suspended.

If the investigation has been suspended, then his words were accurate even allowing for the fact the investigation may be scheduled to restart (which we don't know for certain).

by **LondonTiger** Sun May 17, 2015 9:02 pm

“We are not being investigated at the moment, which is not to say we will not be in the future as is the case for all the other clubs,” said Wray

So yeah, technically not lying as at that time the investigation was suspended.

by Guest Sun May 17, 2015 9:11 pm

If the story is true then Wray knew they had been investigated, and in response to the question he could have made that clear. He instead opted to reveal a half truth "..we are not being investigated at the moment, which is not to say we will not be in the future..." If his club has been investigated, is still under investigation although that investigation is suspended, then his answer was as deceitful as it is misleading.

P.s there are all kinds of lies. Whether technical or not.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 4:44 pm

Gentlemen! Gentlemen. Please, some decorum. Wink

IF the story is true then the main issue becomes Derek Richardson. I guess he should start worrying about his position because undoubtedly this isn't 'officially' over until his June Deadline - at which time the boardroom boys will either have to cough up conclusions to the investigations OR, Mr Richardson will have retired for 'family reasons' before then and nothing will be mentioned - at least officially.

It seems the truth was never meant to get out and was always meant to be something scurrying around and operating under the radar of public knowledge. But of course it's always more difficult to get Jack back in his box than it is keeping him there by an agreed Omerta policy.

But June now becomes the Interesting month to see what transpires.

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 4:55 pm

I think the suspension of the investigation will be lifted in June, and will continue on for months. Well after the WC has ended.

by LordDowlais Mon May 18, 2015 4:57 pm

Munchkin wrote:I think the suspension of the investigation will be lifted in June, and will continue on for months. Well after the WC has ended.

And everybody will escape punishment. Yahoo

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 5:03 pm

That's certainly a possibility. Didn't know you were a Sarries fan Headscratch

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 5:03 pm

Munchkin wrote:I think the suspension of the investigation will be lifted in June, and will continue on for months. Well after the WC has ended.

I realise that, Munch. I also believe though that most of the important bits are already in some filing cabinet under the heading of Burn at Earliest Convenience. Wink

No, I believe most of what needed to be known is known, but yes, they'll string it out even after June in the hope of prolonging it enough for it again to disappear from the minds of the media and PRL members.

But it will be interesting to track that man Richardson.....

by LordDowlais Mon May 18, 2015 5:08 pm

Munchkin wrote: That's certainly a possibility. Didn't know you were a Sarries fan

I was trying to be sarcastic, but it is the PLR way isn't it, and people like Chunky want to jump into bed with these gangsters.

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 5:13 pm

Not sure how much Richardson will be prepared to rock the boat post WC. Plenty more time for Craig and Wray to work on him, methinks.
I can see this being buried, but still remain a cause of tension for seasons to come.

by Sin é Mon May 18, 2015 5:16 pm

Richardson is a Corkman by birth. He won't give in easily.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:Not sure how much Richardson will be prepared to rock the boat post WC. Plenty more time for Craig and Wray to work on him, methinks.
I can see this being buried, but still remain a cause of tension for seasons to come.

That's exactly what I mean. He's the man now that defines the future. If he's worked on then he'll give in privately and nothing will be said in or post June. If he's not moving but worked on then he might disappear under pressures from others in wasps who don't want to rock no boats and worry about concrete boots and fisheses Wink

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 5:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote: That's certainly a possibility. Didn't know you were a Sarries fan

I was trying to be sarcastic, but it is the PLR way isn't it, and people like Chunky want to jump into bed with these gangsters.

Ah, sorry, LD. Slow on the uptake this morning. Yes, I can see it being buried, but the likes of Richardson have an axe to grind now and we will see how that works out. I'm sure Richardson is not alone in his opposition to how this has been handled.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 5:19 pm

It's funny you talk about bullying thugs.

The smaller clubs have been imposing the salary cap. It's natural for wealthier clubs to want a higher salary cap.

It's not as straightforward as wealthy clubs are evil and bullying the smaller clubs.

The smaller clubs can band together and impose their will.

You have some clubs who want to have the ability to challenge the Irish who have no salary cap at all and the French who can buy up all the talent because their salary cap is far higher than that of any English side.

You forget that it's not easy for clubs who have to fight on three fronts - Europe, the AP and internationals. These teams have to have a squad that can handle that.

The likes of Bath and Saracens are contributing significantly to the international team and Saracens flew the flag in the ERCC semi finals as the only AP representative.

Some teams don't need to worry about these things.

A strong Bath or Saracens is not bad for the AP IMO.

It's not even as if Saracens are buying up all the talent - their focus has been on retention more so than bringing in more and more players.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to hold onto your players and I want every team to have that ability.

I don't think it's right that Tigers can't retain the likes of Salvi,Waldrom,Twelvetrees and Ford if indeed it was money that was the issue.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 5:21 pm

Sin é wrote:Richardson is a Corkman by birth. He won't give in easily.

Had to be!

You couldn't write this stuff.

Had to be a rough, stubborn f**king donkey of an Irish man to resist the swingometer to secrecy.

One of the IRFU's many spies/double agents

by LordDowlais Mon May 18, 2015 5:24 pm

For me the trend is as clear as day,the only clubs that can compete with the French, are the clubs with enough money to spend as much as them, it is of no secret why Leinster were there or there about's, they have a massive budget to work off, and that for me is why Saracens were there or there about's, because it is obvious that they are spending more than they are supposed to so that they can compete with the big spending French.

by No 7&1/2 Mon May 18, 2015 5:40 pm

We still don't know if any club have been breaking the rules. You could easily point to different priorities LD, Saracens have done well to compete in Europe this year but the best team in the Aviva didn't do as well as them in Europe.

It is disappointing that if there was any cheating by the teams most mentioned (Bath and Saracens) that they won't be punished this year so have gained initially at least from others.

Still a massive if though.

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 5:43 pm

beshocked wrote:It's funny you talk about bullying thugs.

The smaller clubs have been imposing the salary cap. It's natural for wealthier clubs to want a higher salary cap.

It's not as straightforward as wealthy clubs are evil and bullying the smaller clubs.

The smaller clubs can band together and impose their will.

You have some clubs who want to have the ability to challenge the Irish who have no salary cap at all and the French who can buy up all the talent because their salary cap is far higher than that of any English side.

You forget that it's not easy for clubs who have to fight on three fronts - Europe, the AP and internationals. These teams have to have a squad that can handle that.

The likes of Bath and Saracens are contributing significantly to the international team and Saracens flew the flag in the ERCC semi finals as the only AP representative.

Some teams don't need to worry about these things.

A strong Bath or Saracens is not bad for the AP IMO.

It's not even as if Saracens are buying up all the talent - their focus has been on retention more so than bringing in more and more players.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to hold onto your players and I want every team to have that ability.

I don't think it's right that Tigers can't retain the likes of Salvi,Waldrom,Twelvetrees and Ford if indeed it was money that was the issue.

I can understand why there is tension between the clubs when it comes to the salary cap. The wealthy AP club owners will want to compete with the wealthy T14 club owners. The less wealthy AP clubs will want to compete with their wealthy AP partners. None of that takes away from the fact, if the story is true, that in this instance it is the wealthy clubs owners bullying the weaker.
As far as I'm aware decisions within AP/PRL are decided by vote, a democracy of sorts, and so it was the majority of clubs casting their vote that determined the level of salary cap. I don't believe that is in any sense bullying. According to the story, that democratic process has been abused by at least two clubs, two clubs with wealthy backers, who have imposed their will on that process by means of threatening less wealthy clubs. That is a clear case of bullying.
This isn't so much about the level of salary cap as it is about the behaviour of certain clubs.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 5:48 pm

Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

You have the likes of Sin E and Secretfly living in their ivory towers. Lecturing to us about the salary cap when there's not one in Ireland.

Richardson is likely more upset because his team failed to make the playoffs. Instead of blaming the cap, he should look more at why Wasps failed to beat Tigers and Sarries at home.

The situation at the moment seems to be too skewed to the advantage of the smaller clubs IMO.

I am not surprised if Tigers supported Saracens and Bath - they have struggled to retain players, a raising of the salary cap would help.

As for Quins - it's no surprise they are upset - they have been well off the pace this season. Conor O Shea can use the salary cap as an excuse but tactically Quins have been naive and haven't recruited sufficiently well. They too would benefit from a higher salary cap.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 5:49 pm

beshocked wrote:

You have some clubs who want to have the ability to challenge the Irish who have no salary cap at all and the French who can buy up all the talent because their salary cap is far higher than that of any English side.

You forget that it's not easy for clubs who have to fight on three fronts - Europe, the AP and internationals. These teams have to have a squad that can handle that.

Who forgets? Three of our only four Provinces have to do it. Not easy to forget that a side like Leinster, Munster and Ulster hold the bulk of our hopes in Pro12, Europe and International. The Welsh try to do it too. The Scots try to do all those things with even less sides.

I seriously don't know who you are talking to sometimes Shocked. We know how tough modern professional rugby is. All of us do. We don't need lessons.

Wray had the ability to make things less tough by concentrating more on French Advantages during the Europe negotiations instead of fixating on Pro12. Of course we now know why the French were never questioned about their major perceived Advantages. We could have all talked about a Europe wide salary capping mechanism for European competition. I brought it up often but no...no go.

So if we talk perceived 'Advantages' - Pro12 were accused of having many of them by the very man who now stepped in hard to bully an end to an investigation into his undeclared, secret Advantages over the bulk of his own AP partners!!! And the bulk of them, it seems, miraculously agreed with him that the rules were only curtain dressing to throw at the debate when talk of 'unfairness' was about. In practice we now no longer can safely say how many of them do or have in the past abided by their own supposed written-in-stone rules.

You can't see the irony that this man was one of the cogs in changing European rugby to reflect 'fairness' whilst at the same time he was manipulating his own team to outgun the competition in AP by breaking player salary rules that he was under contract to obey?

by Sin é Mon May 18, 2015 5:50 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:Richardson is a Corkman by birth. He won't give in easily.

Had to be!

You couldn't write this stuff.

Had to be a rough, stubborn f**king donkey of an Irish man to resist the swingometer to secrecy.

One of the IRFU's many spies/double agents

Richardson grew up in Dublin and is/was a Leinster fan up to the time he bought Wasps.

by **LondonTiger** Mon May 18, 2015 5:50 pm

beshocked wrote:Said Stuff

Salary cap was introduced after the demise of Richmond when their wealthy backer withdrew, dragging down London Scottish too. Two years ago bath owed Craig £12m and had a further £8m of debt, they have lost around £7m in the two years since. Saracens are currently losing £4m per season and in debt to their owners to the tune of £40m. Irrespective of the wealth of these backers, it will not be ready cash, and there is always the risk they could walk away - causing two more clubs to fold.

Allowing billionaires to spend to the level Boudjellal has will not benefit English rugby in general. Removing the salary cap would be a very bad thing. annual increases as we get, to reflect increased income streams is the only sensible way to go.

by No 7&1/2 Mon May 18, 2015 5:51 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

You have the likes of Sin E and Secretfly living in their ivory towers. Lecturing to us about the salary cap when there's not one in Ireland.

Richardson is likely more upset because his team failed to make the playoffs. Instead of blaming the cap, he should look more at why Wasps failed to beat Tigers and Sarries at home.

The situation at the moment seems to be too skewed to the advantage of the smaller clubs IMO.

I am not surprised if Tigers supported Saracens and Bath - they have struggled to retain players, a raising of the salary cap would help.

As for Quins - it's no surprise they are upset - they have been well off the pace this season. Conor O Shea can use the salary cap as an excuse but tactically Quins have been naive and haven't recruited sufficiently well. They too would benefit from a higher salary cap.

Do you think Saracens have broken the cap beshocked?

by Sin é Mon May 18, 2015 5:57 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

You have the likes of Sin E and Secretfly living in their ivory towers. Lecturing to us about the salary cap when there's not one in Ireland.

Richardson is likely more upset because his team failed to make the playoffs. Instead of blaming the cap, he should look more at why Wasps failed to beat Tigers and Sarries at home.

The situation at the moment seems to be too skewed to the advantage of the smaller clubs IMO.

I am not surprised if Tigers supported Saracens and Bath - they have struggled to retain players, a raising of the salary cap would help.

As for Quins - it's no surprise they are upset - they have been well off the pace this season. Conor O Shea can use the salary cap as an excuse but tactically Quins have been naive and haven't recruited sufficiently well. They too would benefit from a higher salary cap.

Of course there is a salary cap in Ireland - how it operates is that the books have to be balanced. Ireland run an alternative cap in Ireland - not more than 4 NIQ per SQUAD (not team).

Richardson's resistance was way before he would have known whether Wasps would have played the playoff (back in Feb/March I think).

I doubt very much if George Ford left Leicester for Bath for money Wink

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 5:59 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

You have the likes of Sin E and Secretfly living in their ivory towers. Lecturing to us about the salary cap when there's not one in Ireland.

Richardson is likely more upset because his team failed to make the playoffs. Instead of blaming the cap, he should look more at why Wasps failed to beat Tigers and Sarries at home.

The situation at the moment seems to be too skewed to the advantage of the smaller clubs IMO.

I am not surprised if Tigers supported Saracens and Bath - they have struggled to retain players, a raising of the salary cap would help.

As for Quins - it's no surprise they are upset - they have been well off the pace this season. Conor O Shea can use the salary cap as an excuse but tactically Quins have been naive and haven't recruited sufficiently well. They too would benefit from a higher salary cap.

No salary cap, but then we can only sign 4 NIQ's +1, and that is to be reduced by 1 for the 2016 season. So although we don't have a salary cap, as they do in AP, we are still not free to spend all available funds on top signings. It's a salary cap of sorts.

EDIT: Sin e got there before me mad

by LordDowlais Mon May 18, 2015 5:59 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

Yes and that is one of the main reasons why they are often winning things, It would make me shudder too see what Ulster are currently spending on players, but they also make no secret of it either, although you are right about Irish posters getting on their high horse about Saracens, but you have to admit, they do look very guilty. If there is a rule, then it is not there to be broken, it is there to be followed.

Look,it makes no difference to me whether English clubs are cheating within their own set-up, but what does bother me is why people would like to get involved with this gangster esque philosophy that is the PRL.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 6:00 pm

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

You have the likes of Sin E and Secretfly living in their ivory towers. Lecturing to us about the salary cap when there's not one in Ireland.

Richardson is likely more upset because his team failed to make the playoffs. Instead of blaming the cap, he should look more at why Wasps failed to beat Tigers and Sarries at home.

The situation at the moment seems to be too skewed to the advantage of the smaller clubs IMO.

I am not surprised if Tigers supported Saracens and Bath - they have struggled to retain players, a raising of the salary cap would help.

As for Quins - it's no surprise they are upset - they have been well off the pace this season. Conor O Shea can use the salary cap as an excuse but tactically Quins have been naive and haven't recruited sufficiently well. They too would benefit from a higher salary cap.

No, it's you using your bucket full of excuses to claim Saracens were just playing better and not cheating - and it's the others who should all pull up their skirts - and be loyal to Omerta.... Wink

I'll say again - loudly - for the continuously Hard Of Hearing - I agree with Wray that a Cap ties one hand behind you back. I agree with him now, I agreed - in writing - with him back last year when the whole European debate was kicking off.

I am not against English rugby dropping its cap. It seems the sensible thing now to do when you consider they never tried to rein in the French during the European negotiations. Wray never wanted to rein in big money spending on players anyway because he knew the truth...and he knew where he wants the future to go. He doesn't want 'fairness' - he wants money talking without limits and he knows that when he forces an end to the cap he'll be there to ensure Saracens are one of the Wealthiest clubs in the world. That's his goal. Not Fairness - wealth and the glory it hopefully buys.

What I reject to now and then is being lectured to about 'Fairness' by a group of men who even then were tricking and dancing their ways around their own 'fairness' contracts in their own very League.

by **LondonTiger** Mon May 18, 2015 6:06 pm

beshocked wrote:Richardson is likely more upset because his team failed to make the playoffs. Instead of blaming the cap, he should look more at why Wasps failed to beat Tigers and Sarries at home.

Dumb accusation. Richardson in FEBRUARY was angry that Saracens wished the investigation into the club be cancelled. So it was several months ago and at no point did he blame the cap for anything.

The situation at the moment seems to be too skewed to the advantage of the smaller clubs IMO.

Love sacks. It is set up to stop clubs spending too far above their means. Has failed though as without constant loans Sarries and Bath would be bankrupt.

I am not surprised if Tigers supported Saracens and Bath - they have struggled to retain players, a raising of the salary cap would help.

If you read the article, you will see that they did not support the desire to cancel the investigation. they were in the middle ground, willing to support a suspension. The cap has gone up for next season, and indications are that Leicester as a club who can only spend what they earn may not be up to the cap this nest season.

As for Quins - it's no surprise they are upset - they have been well off the pace this season. Conor O Shea can use the salary cap as an excuse but tactically Quins have been naive and haven't recruited sufficiently well. They too would benefit from a higher salary cap.

There are indeed things quins could have done better, still does not excuse any team, if any are guilty, who will have committed systematic fraud to achieve their results.

As an aside, if Sarries are indeed guilty of breaking the cap in a large way, surely Wasps and Quins fans could be justified in losing two very important players (BillyV and JJ) that Sarries could only afford by deliberatley breaking the cap. A cap they agreed to abide to.

If not guilty - well they should have let the investigation run it's course.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 6:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's funny you talk about bullying thugs.

The smaller clubs have been imposing the salary cap. It's natural for wealthier clubs to want a higher salary cap.

It's not as straightforward as wealthy clubs are evil and bullying the smaller clubs.

The smaller clubs can band together and impose their will.

You have some clubs who want to have the ability to challenge the Irish who have no salary cap at all and the French who can buy up all the talent because their salary cap is far higher than that of any English side.

You forget that it's not easy for clubs who have to fight on three fronts - Europe, the AP and internationals. These teams have to have a squad that can handle that.

The likes of Bath and Saracens are contributing significantly to the international team and Saracens flew the flag in the ERCC semi finals as the only AP representative.

Some teams don't need to worry about these things.

A strong Bath or Saracens is not bad for the AP IMO.

It's not even as if Saracens are buying up all the talent - their focus has been on retention more so than bringing in more and more players.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to hold onto your players and I want every team to have that ability.

I don't think it's right that Tigers can't retain the likes of Salvi,Waldrom,Twelvetrees and Ford if indeed it was money that was the issue.

I can understand why there is tension between the clubs when it comes to the salary cap. The wealthy AP club owners will want to compete with the wealthy T14 club owners. The less wealthy AP clubs will want to compete with their wealthy AP partners. None of that takes away from the fact, if the story is true, that in this instance it is the wealthy clubs owners bullying the weaker.
As far as I'm aware decisions within AP/PRL are decided by vote, a democracy of sorts, and so it was the majority of clubs casting their vote that determined the level of salary cap. I don't believe that is in any sense bullying. According to the story, that democratic process has been abused by at least two clubs, two clubs with wealthy backers, who have imposed their will on that process by means of threatening less wealthy clubs. That is a clear case of bullying.
This isn't so much about the level of salary cap as it is about the behaviour of certain clubs.

The thing you forget is that generally the better AP clubs contribute more to the international side and they also have to fight harder in Europe which means more resources are used during the season. Another point is that - every AP club gets the same payment in Europe despite some teams being much stronger.

You talk about majority. The majority wanted a suspension of the investigation (allegedly). Supposedly one or two clubs bullied the rest? I find that quite funny to be honest.

The majority enforced the salary cap on a minority.

Everyone wants their cake and to eat it. Ultimately I think every club is selfish and wants what is best for them.

It's best for the weaker clubs to have a tough salary cap irrespective of how much damage it does to the wealthier clubs.

You have to look at both sides.

Both sides have their own issues.

The smaller clubs have a smaller wage bill but they have less to focus on - they can put out a full strength team throughout the season without worrying about the IW. As they are not in top tier European rugby they can put more effort into the AP.

It makes it so much easier when you fight on less fronts. Is it a coincidence that Saracens won the AP when they went out of the HC early? Is it a coincidence that Quins won the AP when they missed almost the fewest amount of players during the RWC? Coincidence that a fresher Saints side beat Saracens last season? No of course not.

Secretfly you Irish don't fight on three fronts. You wrap your top players in cotton wool for your bread and butter - the top tier European rugby and internationals.

Both the Irish and French have advantages. Just different ones.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/squad_leinster_first_team.php?includeref=dynamic&player=4038

Look at BOD - for example. It's ridiculous. He played more HC games for Leinster than PRO12/Celtic League.

Just tells you what his priority was.....

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 6:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais there's no salary cap in Ireland - what do you expect?

Yes and that is one of the main reasons why they are often winning things, It would make me shudder too see what Ulster are currently spending on players, but they also make no secret of it either, although you are right about Irish posters getting on their high horse about Saracens, but you have to admit, they do look very guilty. If there is a rule, then it is not there to be broken, it is there to be followed.

Look,it makes no difference to me whether English clubs are cheating within their own set-up, but what does bother me is why people would like to get involved with this gangster esque philosophy that is the PRL.

Our players Lord. Mostly Our produced players. Fighting the market (French dominated) to keep them. Correct. No apologies if we can do that to you, the English or the French. We're struggling at it thoug as French buying power increases by the month!
We didn't break any Contractually agreed League Based Salary caps though. But someone somewhere that had a big mouthy part to play in the new Europe - that stubborn Welsh regions had a part in helping along - Did. Wink

So High Horses? Here - I've kept a Saddle warm for you to join us. Wink

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 6:16 pm

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you Irish don't fight on three fronts. You wrap your top players in cotton wool for your bread and butter - the top tier European rugby and internationals.

Both the Irish and French have advantages. Just different ones.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/squad_leinster_first_team.php?includeref=dynamic&player=4038

Look at BOD - for example. It's ridiculous. He played more HC games for Leinster than PRO12/Celtic League.

Just tells you what his priority was.....

His Priority was Europe and International...Yes.
You have a problem with that? Biggest rugby Union competitions yes?
He was one man. - a good one man but still one. He played long and required something called Rest now an then to keep his batteries charged. Leinster didn't require him for Pro12 - blame the opposition or blame Leinster's own academy structure AND the desire and willingness to use Academy players in the way they should be used - getting real hard edged experience in a real League. Saracens prefers to buy theirs in off the shelf of course.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 6:17 pm

Lorddowlais I agree the Irish posters get on their high horse quite a lot.

They blamed Wayne Barnes for their loss to Wales instead of acknowledging that the better team on the day, Wales won. Ireland had their chances but failed to take them.

Blame you Welsh for supposedly bending over in the European negotiations.

no 7 & 1/2 they might well have. I don't know.

Secretfly you talk about cheating. We don't know what Saracens have been found guilty of yet.

Londontiger one of the reasons Billy left Wasps was because of family pressure - Billy and Mako's dad wanted them to be in the same team.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 6:24 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you Irish don't fight on three fronts. You wrap your top players in cotton wool for your bread and butter - the top tier European rugby and internationals.

Both the Irish and French have advantages. Just different ones.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/squad_leinster_first_team.php?includeref=dynamic&player=4038

Look at BOD - for example. It's ridiculous. He played more HC games for Leinster than PRO12/Celtic League.

Just tells you what his priority was.....

His Priority was Europe and International...Yes.
You have a problem with that? Biggest rugby Union competitions yes?
He was one man. - a good one man but still one. He played long and required something called Rest now an then to keep his batteries charged. Leinster didn't require him for Pro12 - blame the opposition or blame Leinster's own academy structure AND the desire and willingness to use Academy players in the way they should be used - getting real hard edged experience in a real League. Saracens prefers to buy theirs in off the shelf of course.

Secretfly stop talking rubbish. Saracens' academy is good these days.

It's still a fair point that Leinster's arguably most profile player cared more about the bread and butter which was the HC and internationals.

Sure he's just one player but surely fans of rugby want to see Leinster's most high profile player in a league game?

Devalues a league and competition when a player of that calibre doesn't really care.

It's why the perception of the Pro12 and Irish players being wrapped in cotton wool has been so strong.

I just proved an example of this with stats.

Personally I think it's clever tactics by you Irish but it still gives you an advantage.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 6:27 pm

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you talk about cheating. We don't know what Saracens have been found guilty of yet.

Trying to kill the debate again? I'll discuss this topic on the only thing we have - heavy rumours and much rumour detail coming from English journalists. So I'll discuss this on the assumption that a lot of journalists have contacts and are putting their reputations on the line if they are keeping an absolute fantasy of a story going.

Shocked you've simply been forced by the owner of your team into a tough position of defending the indefensible. I applaud the loyalty but the arguments used to justify a contract break and then throwing the 'Guilt' for any wrong doing back at the weaker sides that you allege are just moaning now because they couldn't compete this year.... well, it's weak.

by LordDowlais Mon May 18, 2015 6:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:Our players Lord. Mostly Our produced players

Erm I do not think so. How much are Ulster paying Ruan Piennar, Nick Williams, Franco Van Der Merve, Wiehan Herbst and Luis Ludik amongst other ?

How much are Leinster paying Kane Douglas, Jimmy Gopperth, Zane Kirchner, Richardt Struass and Ben Teo amongst others ?

How much are Munster paying Tyler Bleyendaal, BJ Botha, Eusebio Guinazu, CJ Stander, Gerhard van den Heever, ?

How much are Connacht paying Tom McCartney, Aly Muldowney, Mils Muliaina, George Naoupu, Miah Nikora, Danie Poolman, Quinn Roux, Micheal Swift, and Nathan White ?

So come on now SF, there is a lot of players to be had with a bigger budget, not that the Irish provinces are doing anything wrong though, unlike the English clubs, but add the wages to the players listed above to the multitudes of Irish players you have and the salary bill gets quite the bit higher than most. But in saying that, Saracens and Bath still look as guilty as sin.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 6:38 pm

Secretfly I use stats. You use speculation as your weapon. I know which I believe in more.

What I am saying is that you're incredibly naive - thinking that it's good vs evil. Evil Wray and good Richardson.

Evil PRL and good ol' IRFU who can do no wrong. I find your viewpoint is twisted.

Personally I think there's lots of murky grey. I don't see many facts coming from you.

We don't know what Saracens are guilty of till they are charged. I will concede - yes they might well be guilty but we don't have all the facts in front of us. If they are found guilty then yes they should be punished.

We don't know what's been happening in the meetings, behind closed doors etc.

You say defending the indefensible - nope. I am trying to break your rumours, lies and half truths.

You say Saracens just buy in players off the shelf - wrong. You said that Saracens are just like Toulon - wrong.

During the ERCC debates - I said that everyone had their own self interest at heart. I think this is a similar situation.

You talk about bullying. I don't think it's easy to say that with confidence without all the facts.

Actually just like you I want a salary cap consistent throughout Europe but that's unrealistic and unworkable.

If Saracens are punished then fair enough but we don't know what exactly they are guilty of.

by Guest Mon May 18, 2015 6:39 pm

beshocked wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
beshocked wrote:

The thing you forget is that generally the better AP clubs contribute more to the international side and they also have to fight harder in Europe which means more resources are used during the season. Another point is that - every AP club gets the same payment in Europe despite some teams being much stronger.

You talk about majority. The majority wanted a suspension of the investigation (allegedly). Supposedly one or two clubs bullied the rest? I find that quite funny to be honest.

The majority enforced the salary cap on a minority.

Everyone wants their cake and to eat it. Ultimately I think every club is selfish and wants what is best for them.

It's best for the weaker clubs to have a tough salary cap irrespective of how much damage it does to the wealthier clubs.

You have to look at both sides.

Both sides have their own issues.

The smaller clubs have a smaller wage bill but they have less to focus on - they can put out a full strength team throughout the season without worrying about the IW. As they are not in top tier European rugby they can put more effort into the AP.

It makes it so much easier when you fight on less fronts. Is it a coincidence that Saracens won the AP when they went out of the HC early? Is it a coincidence that Quins won the AP when they missed almost the fewest amount of players during the RWC? Coincidence that a fresher Saints side beat Saracens last season? No of course not.

Secretfly you Irish don't fight on three fronts. You wrap your top players in cotton wool for your bread and butter - the top tier European rugby and internationals.

Both the Irish and French have advantages. Just different ones.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/squad_leinster_first_team.php?includeref=dynamic&player=4038

Look at BOD - for example. It's ridiculous. He played more HC games for Leinster than PRO12/Celtic League.

Just tells you what his priority was.....

I could fire that right back at you after your comment on no salary cap for the Provinces, which isn't entirely true, but your point isn't relevant to this discussion. AP clubs have more freedom in who they sign, are aware of players international commitments, and so it's up to them in how they manage their resources.

If I was a Sarries fan I wouldn't find it funny that my club is alleged to have cheated other clubs and threatened them in the process of attempting to brush it under the carpet. Yes, it's a majority vote, but that process has been, allegedly, abused by at least two clubs in having threatened those clubs which may have voted to expose their cheating of the salary cap. I'm sure you understand how it works, as I'm sure you understand that although the majority voted for the current level of salary cap, those who were against it have damaged that process by ignoring the wishes of the majority and cheated.

I have looked at both sides in this, and I can only find one side cheating. Again, it's not so much about the salary cap as it is about how some clubs have behaved. Your argument suggests that if any club so wishes, any club is right to cheat the agreed rules voted on by the majority. I in turn would suggest that if any club is not prepared to abide by the rules agreed too within that democratic process, then that club is not fit to be part of that process and its membership revoked.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 6:42 pm

Beshocked wrote:

Secretfly stop talking rubbish. Saracens' academy is good these days.

Cheating is an Advantage.

And define 'These days'? Afterall, you're alluding to periods when Leinster were winning League and winning Europe. Thus proving the system of giving their academy players Pro12 experience - real experience not just snippets in non-competitive games against the weakest Pro12 sides - no, playing against Welsh Internationals.

So what does 'These days' mean?

We're talking about lesser players playing in serious competitions, taking the risk of playing them, teaching them and honing their skills to have them then break into Europe with sufficient skills to progress in it - and Then onto International.

That's the cycle - that's the one that works for sustainability rather than having to contemplate buying in most of the players you need every few years for higher and higher wages.

If the fans want to always see the best then that's what they'll demand; and Academy theory will fall by the way side completely as the players the public want to see keep being bought for bigger and bigger prices. Each team then has to try to compete with that spend, spend model or die. Wray hopes for that model thoughout Europe because he trusts his buying potential. He knows that teams that rely on academies in that climate will fail or simply survive on the handout money that their academy players are worth to the Big Sides.

Enjoy the ride. Wink

The future is bright for Saracens because your boss has modelled the future to suit his resources.

by SecretFly Mon May 18, 2015 6:44 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I use stats. You use speculation as your weapon. I know which I believe in more.

What I am saying is that you're incredibly naive - thinking that it's good vs evil. Evil Wray and good Richardson.

Evil PRL and good ol' IRFU who can do no wrong. I find your viewpoint is twisted.

You're doing an awful lot of debating yourself on No-Facts.

You're evading. I repeat, your boss has given you the toughest task for any fan. But you are manning the battle-stations admirably Wink

I trust Wray would do the same for you.

by Sin é Mon May 18, 2015 6:49 pm

beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you Irish don't fight on three fronts. You wrap your top players in cotton wool for your bread and butter - the top tier European rugby and internationals.

Both the Irish and French have advantages. Just different ones.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/squad_leinster_first_team.php?includeref=dynamic&player=4038

Look at BOD - for example. It's ridiculous. He played more HC games for Leinster than PRO12/Celtic League.

Just tells you what his priority was.....

His Priority was Europe and International...Yes.
You have a problem with that? Biggest rugby Union competitions yes?
He was one man. - a good one man but still one. He played long and required something called Rest now an then to keep his batteries charged. Leinster didn't require him for Pro12 - blame the opposition or blame Leinster's own academy structure AND the desire and willingness to use Academy players in the way they should be used - getting real hard edged experience in a real League. Saracens prefers to buy theirs in off the shelf of course.

Secretfly stop talking rubbish. Saracens' academy is good these days.

It's still a fair point that Leinster's arguably most profile player cared more about the bread and butter which was the HC and internationals.

Sure he's just one player but surely fans of rugby want to see Leinster's most high profile player in a league game?

Devalues a league and competition when a player of that calibre doesn't really care.

It's why the perception of the Pro12 and Irish players being wrapped in cotton wool has been so strong.

I just proved an example of this with stats.

Personally I think it's clever tactics by you Irish but it still gives you an advantage.

Beshocked - Saracens have 6 (six) players in their academy. All of the Irish Provinces have about 20 (twenty) each.

by **LondonTiger** Mon May 18, 2015 6:54 pm

Sin é wrote:

Beshocked - Saracens have 6 (six) players in their academy.

not true, those 6 are the ones with first team experience.

Sarries won the Premiership Academy title - winning 5 of 6 in the southern ~Conference and beating Saints on finals day.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 6:55 pm

Secretfly you compared Toulon to Saracens saying that Saracens buy in players and rubbished the academy. I have said that's rubbish. Are you going to man up and admit you are wrong?

Talking about guys like Kruis,Goode,Itoje,George,Fraser,Wray and Farrell.

More facts than you - not that it's hard when you're arguments are based on rumours and speculation.

Evading what?

You're the one doing the dodging and weaving.

by beshocked Mon May 18, 2015 6:57 pm

Sin é wrote:
beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Secretfly you Irish don't fight on three fronts. You wrap your top players in cotton wool for your bread and butter - the top tier European rugby and internationals.

Both the Irish and French have advantages. Just different ones.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/squad_leinster_first_team.php?includeref=dynamic&player=4038

Look at BOD - for example. It's ridiculous. He played more HC games for Leinster than PRO12/Celtic League.

Just tells you what his priority was.....

His Priority was Europe and International...Yes.
You have a problem with that? Biggest rugby Union competitions yes?
He was one man. - a good one man but still one. He played long and required something called Rest now an then to keep his batteries charged. Leinster didn't require him for Pro12 - blame the opposition or blame Leinster's own academy structure AND the desire and willingness to use Academy players in the way they should be used - getting real hard edged experience in a real League. Saracens prefers to buy theirs in off the shelf of course.

Secretfly stop talking rubbish. Saracens' academy is good these days.

It's still a fair point that Leinster's arguably most profile player cared more about the bread and butter which was the HC and internationals.

Sure he's just one player but surely fans of rugby want to see Leinster's most high profile player in a league game?

Devalues a league and competition when a player of that calibre doesn't really care.

It's why the perception of the Pro12 and Irish players being wrapped in cotton wool has been so strong.

I just proved an example of this with stats.

Personally I think it's clever tactics by you Irish but it still gives you an advantage.

Beshocked - Saracens have 6 (six) players in their academy. All of the Irish Provinces have about 20 (twenty) each.

More high horse talk from an Irishman!

Not comparing the supposedly superior Irish academy.

I am comparing Saracens' academy to Toulon's academy and destroying the myth that Saracens buy in every player.

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