AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

Just reading that Times piece: 'Derek Richardson, of Wasps, dug in his heels and demanded a date for the unfreezing of the investigation. The offer he was given was after the clubs had completed their Heads of Agreement negotiations with the RFU — which could have been more than a year. He agreed to giving his vote only on the condition that the investigation was reactivated at the end of June.'

If that's true then the World Cup and bad press hasn't come into the decision at all.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly you compared Toulon to Saracens saying that Saracens buy in players and rubbished the academy. I have said that's rubbish. Are you going to man up and admit you are wrong?


Talking about guys like Kruis,Goode,Itoje,George,Fraser,Wray and Farrell.

The fact is we've relied more over the years on Academy players (by law as much as will!) and we've proven that they win things on both fronts - League and Europe.

If you wish to claim that as proof that we keep our best players in Cottonwool then expect to get the hit back.
We paid mostly for our own.... but we trusted them to actually play.... that's a much Cheaper Model by the way than Wray's wished for blueprint, as you can then keep some of your self produced Stars and not let England or France buy them up.

But Wray doesn't want a model that any side in AP could compete with - nope, he wants earning power to decide. That will kill academies - but that's the ideal for some. Flood the market with Super Players from all corners of the world and get your buying power chequebook out to dictate who gets them and wins trophies.

SecretFly wrote:The fact is we've relied more over the years on Academy players

No you did not, you relied on your very expensive, highly paid imports. Without Rocky Elsom Leinster would not have won the European cup in 2012, players like Isa Necewa carried Leinster in the Pro12 for years. The same with all the other provinces.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just reading that Times piece: 'Derek Richardson, of Wasps, dug in his heels and demanded a date for the unfreezing of the investigation. The offer he was given was after the clubs had completed their Heads of Agreement negotiations with the RFU — which could have been more than a year. He agreed to giving his vote only on the condition that the investigation was reactivated at the end of June.'

If that's true then the World Cup and bad press hasn't come into the decision at all.

That was merely reasons given for the initial demand to freeze/cancel the investigation. No-one ever says what they really want. After all in the discussions around Europe fairness re qualification was mentioned. Now while that argument has some merit - the real reason was to end the disparity in payments (only Italy got less from ERC than England did) and to gain control/power. Of course, irrespective of the merits, admitting to the later makes you look greedy and power hungry.

Then throw into the mix the basic human nature of defending your own tribe to the hilt, despite their sins, and portraying other tribes as evil and also throw in the melting pot that is t'internet and we all get very angry.

And I am indeed one who gets angry. I am angry that clubs did not stand up to bullying from Wray.

I was also angry with our celtic cousins last year who were unable to see that there were far more than one party in the Euro fiasco that were self serving and greedy. (ie PRL and every other bugger involved)


All we have now is further re-inforcement that the administration of rugby is a pathetic joke.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The fact is we've relied more over the years on Academy players

No you did not, you relied on your very expensive, highly paid imports. Without Rocky Elsom Leinster would not have won the European cup in 2012, players like Isa Necewa carried Leinster in the Pro12 for years. The same with all the other provinces.

Really? Could have sworn he was only in the 2009 team, and while he played well in the final the refs interpretation of the lineout was a far more telling reason we were beaten that day.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The fact is we've relied more over the years on Academy players

No you did not, you relied on your very expensive, highly paid imports. Without Rocky Elsom Leinster would not have won the European cup in 2012, players like Isa Necewa carried Leinster in the Pro12 for years. The same with all the other provinces.

Really? Could have sworn he was only in the 2009 team, and while he played well in the final the refs interpretation of the lineout was a far more telling reason we were beaten that day.

Sorry I have got my finals in a twist.

NP. It was a different NIQ that won that game for them, Nigel Owens

LondonTiger wrote:NP. It was a different NIQ that won that game for them, Nigel Owens

Rocky Elsom was awsome throughout the competition, both in Europe and the league, he mad a massive difference for Leinster that season.

It is interesting that BOD still gets wheeled out as the example of "resting" players when he has long since retired.

There can be little doubt that his career was significantly prolonged by careful management and that this, far from devaluing the league, actually enhanced it for several seasons more than would otherwise have been the case. Getting flogged for one season in France and being forced to retire might not have made economic sense to him personally anyway.

The PRL may feel they need to flog their players (until they get injured) in order to keep up their part of the TV deal, but is that really what Lancaster's England needs? Perhaps it is because he would not have unearthed players like Ford and Joseph, but I suspect he would much rather have more continuity and fewer injuries to contend with.

Of course moguls like Wray and Craig want their jewels to be on display in their own arenas, so it is likely that their Test players will be the ones flogged the most, and by extension injured the most. That puts pressure on the team so they need to have greater depth and so there must be a strong temptation to buy that in.

Rather than extending the salary cap (and the temptation to break it), to allow for more depth to cover injuries, has anyone in the PRL/RFU considered a player management programme?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The fact is we've relied more over the years on Academy players

No you did not, you relied on your very expensive, highly paid imports. Without Rocky Elsom Leinster would not have won the European cup in 2012, players like Isa Necewa carried Leinster in the Pro12 for years. The same with all the other provinces.

I would think 'very expensive' and 'highly paid' amount to the same thing. Anyway, the Provinces are entitled to sign very expensive, highly paid, imports. There is the fact that we are very limited to the amount of very expensive, highly paid, imports we can sign. At present that sits at 4 + 1, and will soon be reduced by 1. It isn't as if all our imports are of the very expensive kind either. Last season Ulster signed Ludik, Van der Merwe and Herbst. None would fit that 'very expensive' description, although all have proved great signings. True that we have spent big on Piutau, and I'm delighted that we have. It's very much a statement of intent for the season after next. It isn't as if one or two of these expensive signing for Leinster or Munster have trotted out unto the field and won these games on their own. One or two big names players won't win much with a weak team whoever they are.

Would be interesting to see a breakdown of the games played at a few clubs in either league to see whether that is true Aukster. Would be interesting to see research of what type of injuries are more statistically likely without sufficient rest ie I don't think you'd count breaks or concussion etc (or you might?).

Anyway, enough of this deflection. This thread is about super rich machiavellian AP club owners. Not the Provinces!

The Great Aukster wrote:Rather than extending the salary cap (and the temptation to break it), to allow for more depth to cover injuries, has anyone in the PRL/RFU considered a player management programme?

Please explain how you can conduct a player management program with large rest periods without increasing the size of the squad?

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:NP. It was a different NIQ that won that game for them, Nigel Owens

Rocky Elsom was awsome throughout the competition, both in Europe and the league, he mad a massive difference for Leinster that season.

Where were our stars that were putting the middle finger up to Pro12, Lord?  You told me where they were.  They were putting the finger up to the Pro12 Welsh fans that wanted to see them in Wales playing in Pro12 games.  They were responsible for Welsh Regional fans staying away in their droves yes?

So who was winning Pro12s or running up or coming third or fourth most years?  The Academies.  
Don't rewrite history to suit your Us Poor Welsh angle.  It's over sold, Lord.  
Don't you remember the Galacticos?  Who were they?  Guys that wore tanning lotion by the bucket full and coloured boots before they earned them?  I'd say those lads were getting paid more than most players in Ireland at the time.

Coaching..... not players.

LondonTiger wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rather than extending the salary cap (and the temptation to break it), to allow for more depth to cover injuries, has anyone in the PRL/RFU considered a player management programme?

Please explain how you can conduct a player management program with large rest periods without increasing the size of the squad?

???

Lesser players are paid less?

Trust lesser players more.

You see in English rugby it seems the idea is always that the winning teams always need their top players playing because it's SOOO competitive. It may BE competitive but why is that a reason not to trust and risk to grow academy players of the future? That's how anything cyclical works. Those academy guys shouldn't simply be the battering rams or crash test dummies on training fields. They should be blooded. And as you blood them they're learning and as they're learning they are still being paid less

It's a different philosophy I guess.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Secretfly you compared Toulon to Saracens saying that Saracens buy in players and rubbished the academy. I have said that's rubbish. Are you going to man up and admit you are wrong?


Talking about guys like Kruis,Goode,Itoje,George,Fraser,Wray and Farrell.

The fact is we've relied more over the years on Academy players (by law as much as will!)  and we've proven that they win things on both fronts - League and Europe.

If you wish to claim that as proof that we keep our best players in Cottonwool then expect to get the hit back.  
We paid mostly for our own.... but we trusted them to actually play.... that's a much Cheaper Model by the way than Wray's wished for blueprint, as you can then keep some of your self produced Stars and not let England or France buy them up.

But Wray doesn't want a model that any side in AP could compete with - nope, he wants earning power to decide.  That will kill academies - but that's the ideal for some.  Flood the market with Super Players from all corners of the world and get your buying power chequebook out to dictate who gets them and wins trophies.

You talk about super players. Who are supposedly the super players at Saracens?

Wray tried the superstar names in the 90s and only had a tetley's bitter cup in 98' to show for it.

Vunipola, Ashton, Brits? Obviously big Jim Hamilton.

I talk about 'Super Players' being his ideal Future for a non-cap-restrained Saracens - competing with Toulon and their Harlem Gobetrotting signings and of course Leinster and its 22 multinational Superstars in their squad from all over the Woyld

I'm talking about Wray's wished for Future.

Secretfly I already said he tried the superstar approach. It failed. You're suggesting he would want to do it again? Based on what exactly? More speculation?

LondonTiger wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rather than extending the salary cap (and the temptation to break it), to allow for more depth to cover injuries, has anyone in the PRL/RFU considered a player management programme?

Please explain how you can conduct a player management program with large rest periods without increasing the size of the squad?

I was talking about the salary cap as opposed to squad size. Can it be assumed that young development players are 'cheaper' than experienced cover players?

Planning when players are out allows the team to minimise its weakness by not losing all their key players at the same time. Young players will develop faster with an experienced team around them, so they can be trusted to come into games as they develop. This precludes the need to have as many experienced cover players in the squad and so should help stay within the salary cap.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I already said he tried the superstar approach. It failed.  You're suggesting he would want to do it again? Based on what exactly? More speculation?

He doesn't want to buy up a hoard of SA, NZ, AUS, Welsh, even French superstars of the now or the future if the death of the capping laws allowed him to?  He wouldn't love to get into some serious bidding wars with biggest Top14 sides?

(PS - and to steal best English players off some rivals.....)

Of course he would, it's why he's always campaigned for the capping rules to go.  He needs them gone for him and his fellow backers to take Saracens to the next level.  Free Open Skies Policy on players salaries worldwide.  You seriously think that's not on his agenda?

My God, you're not telling me he only wants to pay his Academy players better....

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rather than extending the salary cap (and the temptation to break it), to allow for more depth to cover injuries, has anyone in the PRL/RFU considered a player management programme?

Please explain how you can conduct a player management program with large rest periods without increasing the size of the squad?

I was talking about the salary cap as opposed to squad size. Can it be assumed that young development players are 'cheaper' than experienced cover players?

Planning when players are out allows the team to minimise its weakness by not losing all their key players at the same time. Young players will develop faster with an experienced team around them, so they can be trusted to come into games as they develop. This precludes the need to have as many experienced cover players in the squad and so should help stay within the salary cap.

If the size of squad remains the same how would the players be playing less?

Before the salary cap was introduced, Sarries splashed a lot of dosh on people like Lynagh, Piennaar, Sella, Casteignede - but it largely failed.

they have now created some success through building a team that fights for each other and are now evolving into a side with a real core of homw-grown english talent. does Wray wish to go down the toulon route - probably not as they tried that and failed at it. they would however like to be able to sprinkle a little stardust on their team and compete with the salaries being spent on the likes of Piutau etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rather than extending the salary cap (and the temptation to break it), to allow for more depth to cover injuries, has anyone in the PRL/RFU considered a player management programme?

Please explain how you can conduct a player management program with large rest periods without increasing the size of the squad?

I was talking about the salary cap as opposed to squad size. Can it be assumed that young development players are 'cheaper' than experienced cover players?

Planning when players are out allows the team to minimise its weakness by not losing all their key players at the same time. Young players will develop faster with an experienced team around them, so they can be trusted to come into games as they develop. This precludes the need to have as many experienced cover players in the squad and so should help stay within the salary cap.

If the size of squad remains the same how would the players be playing less?

Isn't the idea that English sides utilise their lesser players less, therefore they require either their best players to play longer through a season or they prefer having less 'green' players as cover?
The Irish way, it is said, is to use academy (green) players more and rest Best players until big games?

The difference of principle seems to suggest the English sides look for more experience through a squad and therefore feel compelled to push their cap to the very limit.... whereas we're saying if truly academy players were trusted more to weave in and take some of the heat of the season (learning the hard way as they go) that would allow more of them and require less of the big name experienced players - therefore in theory cheaper squads but the same numbers in squads roughly speaking.

LondonTiger wrote:Before the salary cap was introduced, Sarries splashed a lot of dosh on people like Lynagh, Piennaar, Sella, Casteignede - but it largely failed.

they have now created some success through building a team that fights for each other and are now evolving into a side with a real core of homw-grown english talent. does Wray wish to go down the toulon route - probably not as they tried that and failed at it. they would however like to be able to sprinkle a little stardust on their team and compete with the salaries being spent on the likes of Piutau etc.

He tried it and he failed?

He doesn't like failing it seems so I'd say a new try is what he wants.

Plus, he's still not cutting into French supremecy in Europe.  He wants his Saracens Brand to grow and he knows the only way to grow it in a world wide context is winning the Big European contests.  That and money is what attracts the world Superstars that then put bums on seats at stadiums that require to be paid for and depts. serviced etc etc. Business.

This is a new world.  It's too easy to say Wray tried it before and now wants to concentrate on building a team up.  He wants to compete against the best and beat them because that seems to be his competitive nature.  The new way is big stars getting paid big amounts.  That Genie doesn't seem to be close to going back in its lamp any time soon.

I get that line of theory Fly, but wasn't the initial point that the PRL flog their players? If that's the case you'd need more players in your squad rather than a different mix of experience.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get that line of theory Fly, but wasn't the initial point that the PRL flog their players? If that's the case you'd need more players in your squad rather than a different mix of experience.

Well 7&1/2 the lines get mixed up as people argue this one over and back.

The Theory is that the English flog their best players.  But that Theory only exists because of the other Theory that Irish save their best players for Europe and nothing else.  Both Theories are a little too stringent to be absolutely true.  Both theories are obviously not absolutely true and have been proven not to be true here often enough in stat battles.

BUT...as we argue the issues, we keep getting dragged back to the Theories and using them

All I can say is that its a fact that English sides have roughly the same number of squad players per team as the Irish.  
All I can say is that it's true that Irish sides have used their Academy/lesser players in games that other sides/Nations claimed they 've always used their best players in - not just the English btw - it seems some Welsh make the accusation too.  
And all I can say is that Irish sides (allegedly using cottonwool theory to the Max - CWMax as it were - have a respectable record both in Europe AND in their League.  

So if it's considered a sacrifice protocol - giving up competitiveness in Pro12 to concentrate in Europe - then in practice it's proven to be little in the way of sacrifice at all but a good way to battle harden the upcoming generations and keep a cycle going reasonably successfully.

SecretFly wrote: Isn't the idea that English sides utilise their lesser players less, therefore they require either their best players to play longer through a season or they prefer having less 'green' players as cover?
The Irish way, it is said, is to use academy (green) players more and rest Best players until big games?

The difference of principle seems to suggest the English sides look for more experience through a squad and therefore feel compelled to push their cap to the very limit.... whereas we're saying if truly academy players were trusted more to weave in and take some of the heat of the season (learning the hard way as they go) that would allow more of them and require less of the big name experienced players - therefore in theory cheaper squads but the same numbers in squads roughly speaking.

Interesting point of view, but when you look at the national sides, you would see a far older and more experienced Irish team than England at the moment. I can only think of Henshaw and Zebo under 25 off the top of my head right now for Ireland. I could practically name a full 15 for England under 25. So looks to me like England do use 'greener' players in big matches more than Ireland.

I fully stand by the opinion the only reason England have came 2nd in the last four Six Nations is they have called upon less experienced players than both Ireland or Wales.

Whether England expects more from their players, you could be right with that. We play more than other countries - 12 tests plus Barbarian and Canterbury Crusaders matches last year. I think thats more than other countries played in 2014. So that, plus domestic plus Europe might be too much at the current way the game is ran in England. Something is going to have to change, and I think we are seeing it now.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Our players Lord.  Mostly Our produced players

Erm I do not think so. How much are Ulster paying Ruan Piennar, Nick Williams, Franco Van Der Merve, Wiehan Herbst and Luis Ludik amongst other ?

How much are Leinster paying Kane Douglas, Jimmy Gopperth, Zane Kirchner, Richardt Struass and Ben Teo amongst others ?

How much are Munster paying Tyler Bleyendaal, BJ Botha, Eusebio Guinazu, CJ Stander, Gerhard van den Heever, ?

How much are Connacht paying Tom McCartney, Aly Muldowney, Mils Muliaina, George Naoupu, Miah Nikora, Danie Poolman, Quinn Roux, Micheal Swift, and Nathan White ?

So come on now SF, there is a lot of players to be had with a bigger budget, not that the Irish provinces are doing anything wrong though, unlike the English clubs, but add the wages to the players listed above to the multitudes of Irish players you have and the salary bill gets quite the bit higher than most. But in saying that, Saracens and Bath still look as guilty as sin.

But why no reply to this post, I would hazard a guess that what Ulster are paying their imports alone are almost half of what the Welsh regions work at. So squad size aside, the provinces must be working at a higher budget than that of the English.

LordDowlais wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Our players Lord.  Mostly Our produced players

Erm I do not think so. How much are Ulster paying Ruan Piennar, Nick Williams, Franco Van Der Merve, Wiehan Herbst and Luis Ludik amongst other ?

How much are Leinster paying Kane Douglas, Jimmy Gopperth, Zane Kirchner, Richardt Struass and Ben Teo amongst others ?

How much are Munster paying Tyler Bleyendaal, BJ Botha, Eusebio Guinazu, CJ Stander, Gerhard van den Heever, ?

How much are Connacht paying Tom McCartney, Aly Muldowney, Mils Muliaina, George Naoupu, Miah Nikora, Danie Poolman, Quinn Roux, Micheal Swift, and Nathan White ?

So come on now SF, there is a lot of players to be had with a bigger budget, not that the Irish provinces are doing anything wrong though, unlike the English clubs, but add the wages to the players listed above to the multitudes of Irish players you have and the salary bill gets quite the bit higher than most. But in saying that, Saracens and Bath still look as guilty as sin.

But why no reply to this post, I would hazard a guess that what Ulster are paying their imports alone are almost half of what the Welsh regions work at. So squad size aside, the provinces must be working at a higher budget than that of the English.

Because it suits your argument to guess? Instead of having another go at the Provinces on this thread, why not create a sparkly new one instead of clogging this thread up with distraction?

I aint clogging anything up, I reckon Saracens and Bath are both cheating the English league, I think that is obvious, but why are the Irish on here preaching to them about it when their provinces spend more ?

Personally I could not give a monkeys hooting toot whether those two clubs are cheating, it does not affect me, or the teams I support, I do now hope though that people are going to see the PLR for what they really are though, I am just giving another point of view on here, but as always the Irish wolf packs on here all attack when people do not agree with them.

LordDowlais wrote:I aint clogging anything up, I reckon Saracens and Bath are both cheating the English league, I think that is obvious, but why are the Irish on here preaching to them about it when their provinces spend more ?

Personally I could not give a monkeys hooting toot whether those two clubs are cheating, it does not affect me, or the teams I support, I do now hope though that people are going to see the PLR for what they really are though, I am just giving another point of view on here, but as always the Irish wolf packs on here all attack when people do not agree with them.

I believe "Irish Wolfhounds" is the preferred moniker.

Beshocked is your current position:

If Sarries did anything wrong they should be punished, just not before the RWC, and also small clubs are also bad for voting for their interests, and maybe the cap should be gotten rid of to be on a level playing field with the Irish?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Our players Lord.  Mostly Our produced players

Erm I do not think so. How much are Ulster paying Ruan Piennar, Nick Williams, Franco Van Der Merve, Wiehan Herbst and Luis Ludik amongst other ?

How much are Leinster paying Kane Douglas, Jimmy Gopperth, Zane Kirchner, Richardt Struass and Ben Teo amongst others ?

How much are Munster paying Tyler Bleyendaal, BJ Botha, Eusebio Guinazu, CJ Stander, Gerhard van den Heever, ?

How much are Connacht paying Tom McCartney, Aly Muldowney, Mils Muliaina, George Naoupu, Miah Nikora, Danie Poolman, Quinn Roux, Micheal Swift, and Nathan White ?

So come on now SF, there is a lot of players to be had with a bigger budget, not that the Irish provinces are doing anything wrong though, unlike the English clubs, but add the wages to the players listed above to the multitudes of Irish players you have and the salary bill gets quite the bit higher than most. But in saying that, Saracens and Bath still look as guilty as sin.

All those are on Super salaries?  

Irish Sides DO NOT pay more for their players than top five or six English sides... Period.  You get me the overall salary budgets - real ones! - and we'll discuss.  For now, you simply can't claim something to be true when you can't prove it.  I'm saying to you I don't believe it for - an - instant.  You show me I'm wrong.

I repeat.  Quins told me for a fact that English clubs had much bigger squads than Irish Provinces.  Had I just accepted what he said as true and tried to argue my way past it I'd have been left dead in the water.  But I didn't decide to believe him and looked it up - a simple thing to do.  Turns out he was very ill informed or just lying.  So his argument died with his assertion that proved wrong.

You yourself claimed that Welsh sides have to deal with more Irish refs than the other way round in Pro12.  A big slice of your argument at the time was constructed around the 'truth' of it.  I did the research and found you wrong.  Irish sides had had more Welsh refs than the other way round at the time you were making the claim.  So you were making arguments based on untruths.  

I say again - Irish Provinces are NOT spending more on their squads than the top five or six English sides.  That's my claim.  You stick to your one if it suits you, but this time I obviously can't do my research as Real Income of English AP Players is now a big grey area that nobody knows the truth of.

Plus.  If all these guys you mention above are BIG Names, getting Big bucks and playing Big time rugby.... why were you moaning that welsh fans still wanted to see the Big Irish stars that never allegedly showed? Why was your taunt that the Provinces didn't take the Pro12 seriously?

For a start we are not preaching to them about the salary cap! Next; it isn't just the Irish that think, if the story is true, the cheating and bullying is totally unacceptable.

To think that those two clubs don't effect you, if the stories are true, is rather short sighted.

My point about starting a new thread was just a suggestion, LD. This discussion is off topic and does clog the thread up. In an earlier discussion I apologised for going off topic. So I'm not picking on you.

Anyway, I guess the Regions are spending twice the amount on their players and the tea lady, than that of the Provinces. All under the table of course, and can't be proven. It is fact and you will just have to trust me

SecretFly wrote:Plus. If all these guys you mention above are BIG Names, getting Big bucks and playing Big time rugby.... why were you moaning that welsh fans still wanted to see the Big Irish stars that never allegedly showed? Why was your taunt that the Provinces didn't take the Pro12 seriously?

What has that got to do with this thread ? And I get accused of clogging things up.

Anyway,I will concede that the Irish provinces are not spending as much as the Saracens and Baths of this world, but they are up there with the Leicesters of this world and a lot more than the Wasps and Newcastles of this world. But for you and your chums to start preaching to people like beshocked for they amounts Saracens spend on players and tell him they are like Toulon, I will remind you of players like Raun Piennar who are on a few hundred thousand a year,and Sexton who will be probably the highest paid player in Britain and Ireland when he comes home. So like it or not, the Irish provinces spend as much as the English teams, if you ask me the Pro12 needs a salary cap as well.

Munchkin wrote:For a start we are not preaching to them about the salary cap! Next; it isn't just the Irish that think, if the story is true, the cheating and bullying is totally unacceptable.

To think that those two clubs don't effect you, if the stories are true, is rather short sighted.

My point about starting a new thread was just a suggestion, LD. This discussion is off topic and does clog the thread up. In an earlier discussion I apologised for going off topic. So I'm not picking on you.

Anyway, I guess the Regions are spending twice the amount on their players and the tea lady, than that of the Provinces. All under the table of course, and can't be proven. It is fact and you will just have to trust me

You do not true I wish that was, we could do with a few quality players at our regions, just so that we could compete a little better against the big boys.

Munchkin wrote:
Anyway, I guess the Regions are spending twice the amount on their players and the tea lady, than that of the Provinces. All under the table of course, and can't be proven. It is fact and you will just have to trust me

I heard that...and saw the evidence too just yesterday. Good work there, Munch. That's about the only Actual Fact that's been mentioned on this thread so far.

I await the controversy when it goes public this Thursday in The Rugby Paper

Back to exclusively AP Salary Cap talk.....

SecretFly wrote:Back to exclusively AP Salary Cap talk.....

Fair enough, onwards and upwards, lets drag the PLR through this as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

Anyway,I will concede that the Irish provinces are not spending as much as the Saracens and Baths of this world, but they are up there with the Leicesters of this world .

I hope the hell we are! I only wish we were closer to Toulon, Toulouse and Clermont!

I want to win!!!! I'm not against ending English Caps ( I can understand the reasoning)... But I said I'd love a Pro12 Cap... if the other two Leagues agreed to a similar one.. How clear do I have to be? We all want to compete. Welsh rugby will find ways to find more money too because it seems it is essential to compete in this professional world. But we have kept most of our own players and played them, Lord. For that, I'll never apologise. Join us

SecretFly wrote:I say again - Irish Provinces are NOT spending more on their squads than the top five or six English sides.

With centrally contracted players I would hope not.

LondonTiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I say again - Irish Provinces are NOT spending more on their squads than the top five or six English sides.

With centrally contracted players I would hope not.

What's a Centrally Contracted player. The IRFU own them all Union V Clubs again.... We don't want to go there

Secretfly there is no cap in Ireland. You can say that you don't spend more than team X but you have no limit.

Lorddowlais well said.

Also Secretfly in particular doesn't seem to understand anything about Saracens. To say that Saracens are like Toulon is completely ignorant.


Wolfball

My stance:

Nigel Wray is not the devil incarnate. I think it's unfair to criticise him so much when no one has all the facts. Wray has been attacked a lot. I don't think it's fair for him to get such a verbal kicking.

Saracens have been highlighted as a guilty party before anything has been done. Saracens as the only team named have been singled out - is that fair? I don't think so.

Don't hear anyone screaming out for any other potential alleged breakers of the salary cap to be named. Just happy to lay into the only club named.

Irish shouldn't try and preach about the salary cap when you don't have one. You can spend what you want - it's your choice.

Everyone has their own interests at heart including the small clubs. I don't think it's straightforward as the good guys vs the bad guys. The small clubs can band together and force the other clubs to bow to their terms.

I want a Europe wide salary cap - want for it to be a level playing field in Europe.

beshocked wrote:
Irish shouldn't try and preach about the salary cap when you don't have one. You can spend what you want - it's your choice.

Personally I haven't preached about any cap. That's up to the PRL. None of my issue.

However not only can the provinces not spend what they want. They can't even buy the players they want. at ANY price. All signings have to be approved by the IRFU.

If Richie McCaw agreed to play for Leinster for nothing and pay his own expenses the IRFU could (and probably would) veto it.

Different strokes.

We don't need a cap because we have no control. The union have zero interest in Leinster winning the HC. They like to see us in a home QF because it generates a few sheckels but that's as far as it goes.

We exist only to supply players to the national team.

The IRFU are currently looking to distribute the contents of our academy among the other provinces to that end.

There are swings and roundabouts for Leinster in the situation. Our players get rested for international duty, sometimes at inopportune times for example. Also beyond our control

Personally I think it is a good system over all, but there is a balance to be struck between province and country.

It is impossible to compare what is spent on Irish and English teams as both make it hard to find exact info on wages etc. and the systems are so different.

According to those in the know the IRFU spend roughly the same on the 4 provinces wage bill as 4 PRL teams would.

beshocked wrote:

I want a Europe wide salary cap - want for it to be a level playing field in Europe.

Best of luck with that one.

Un.. enforceable. Un.. workable Un.. able to even set criteria to base it on with all the different situations in different countries.

Anyone who says (paraphrased) 'we haven't broken the cap, the lawyers have made sure' is breaking at least he spirit of it. I don't care if they technically or not but if they're taking advantage of loopholes (which they helped to write) then they're scum in my book.

EDIT: Got it. Didn't read it right the first time

beshocked wrote:Secretfly there is no cap in Ireland. You can say that you don't spend more than team X but you have no limit.

You're again trying to pass the buck.  Irish sides can spend what they can afford.... true.  Never denied it.  As can Welsh Regions! 
I DO deny that their wage bills are much greater than the top five or six English sides.  So I argue the relativity of the Cappless Irish versus the 'Capped' English.

Like I said to Lord... prove me wrong.  I'm not making the claim.  You and Lord are suggesting it's the case.  Then prove it.  But of course we can't prove anything anymore, can we, because the potential truth has been suppressed.

Also Secretfly in particular doesn't seem to understand anything about Saracens. To say that Saracens are like Toulon is completely ignorant.

I say Saracens, through their ambitious boss and SA fellow funders, want to compete with the best in Europe (not the best in AP - the best in Europe) in being able to engage in a bidding war for present and future considered world's best players.  You think that's not his ambition?  Well we strongly disagree then because that's what I believe the incremental steps have all been about.  First Europe, then ending the cap.  I said it last year, I still say it this year.

Nigel Wray is not the devil incarnate.  

No he's not the devil - he's a ruthlessly ambitious coach with an eye on taking Professional rugby into Professional football territory.

Irish shouldn't try and preach about the salary cap when you don't have one. You can spend what you want - it's your choice.

And Wray's..... AND, since the investigation was suppressed, mostly all AP teams now could pay what they want behind the scenes in violation of supposed Rule.  If the rule is only propaganda and not meant to be enforced then the Rule is obsolete.

The small clubs can band together and force the other clubs to bow to their terms.

Going on 'speculation' then obviously not.  One big owner can threaten this that and the other, indeed the top four or five owners can threaten to chase after a 'Super League' and the smaller clubs feel the heat and sign the Omerta contract.

I want a Europe wide salary cap - want for it to be a level playing field in Europe.

We Agree on one thing at least!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Were you saying that last year though when we all could have put mucho pressure on Top14 to make it part of negotiations then?

One more time.... back to exclusively AP Salary Cap talk.....