AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
and you still think that the Welsh regions joining the PRL was a runner

You're comparing splitting the existing market with a potential new competition in a greater market. And you end that with a 'laughing' childish picture.

I'm not sure that you had thought that through.

That said, salary caps are a complete waste of time, they are unenforceable and should be scrapped. Then you can have a really skewed league where one organisation with a turnover many times that of its competitors can gerrymander four teams to the point of making the competition worthless.

Whats the population of South Wales then?

Sin é wrote:
Whats the population of South Wales then?

Why just South Wales? Your loaded question is misplaced. Maybe try again?

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

What would you call this recent series of events then Phil ?

Standard business practice Cheating.

There I put it right for you.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Whats the population of South Wales then?

Why just South Wales? Your loaded question is misplaced. Maybe try again?

What do you mean by a greater market then?

yappysnap wrote:Is this good for the game in England?

It isn't good for the game anywhere.

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Whats the population of South Wales then?

Why just South Wales? Your loaded question is misplaced. Maybe try again?

What do you mean by a greater market then?

What it notes. You've limited it to a tiny geographical area rather than considered greater interest in the product.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

What would you call this recent series of events then Phil ?

Standard business practice Cheating.

There I put it right for you.

That's potentially actionable, too. If they were cheating then they'd have been caught and punished.

PhilBB wrote:That's potentially actionable, too. If they were cheating then they'd have been caught and punished.

They were caught, but they were not punished, this is where the corruption comes into it.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:That's potentially actionable, too. If they were cheating then they'd have been caught and punished.

They were caught, but they were not punished, this is where the corruption comes into it.

They were 'caught' breaking a contract that was not enforceable.

If you think that's corruption, you need to learn the meaning of that word.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Whats the population of South Wales then?

Why just South Wales? Your loaded question is misplaced. Maybe try again?

What do you mean by a greater market then?

What it notes. You've limited it to a tiny geographical area rather than considered greater interest in the product.

Greater interest from whom?

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Whats the population of South Wales then?

Why just South Wales? Your loaded question is misplaced. Maybe try again?

What do you mean by a greater market then?

What it notes. You've limited it to a tiny geographical area rather than considered greater interest in the product.

Greater interest from whom?

Across our Island.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Whats the population of South Wales then?

Why just South Wales? Your loaded question is misplaced. Maybe try again?

What do you mean by a greater market then?

What it notes. You've limited it to a tiny geographical area rather than considered greater interest in the product.

Greater interest from whom?

Across our Island.

I don't think there is much evidence to suggest that there will be Qs forming to see the Dragons playing the Falcons.

Sin é wrote:
I don't think there is much evidence to suggest that there will be Qs forming to see the Dragons playing the Falcons.

Well, I'd imagine it would certainly add more than €900,000 a year to the TV deal.

Londontiger I doubt you would be disgusted if it was Tigers who were breaking the rules.

Haven't heard you criticising Tigers for allegedly breaking the cap in the past.....

Breaking the salary cap is not right and perhaps Saracens and Bath should be punished but after the RWC.

The reason the salary cap is being swept under the carpet is that it will damage the AP and English rugby just before the RWC which is bad for business.

Also Bath and Saracens are contributing to the England team. 4 of the Saracens players from the academy in the England 31 - Goode,George,Kruis and Farrell.

You talk about poaching players. I would say Saracens have done it less than Leicester who have been infamous for taking Falcons players.

I think the difference between a side like Saracens and Leicester is that Saracens have kept most of their best players whilst Leicester have lost a few of theirs.

To be honest I think it shows more of a flaw in the English salary cap system than anything.

A side like Leicester should be able to keep their best players.

It's a shame to see a Leicester without familiar faces and a more foreign look to it.

I have never been a big fan of the salary cap system as it is.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I doubt you would be disgusted if it was Tigers who were breaking the rules.

Haven't heard you criticising Tigers for allegedly breaking the cap in the past.....

I am disgusted by Leicester's actions in this whitewash as much as anyone else. I am disgusted by the bullying. We were caught once and fined - under the old rules. If we were caught cheating under the current rules I would be demanding we be punished.

As to your implication that i am being hypocritical - well you can Frak right off.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:That's potentially actionable, too. If they were cheating then they'd have been caught and punished.

They were caught, but they were not punished, this is where the corruption comes into it.

They were 'caught' breaking a contract that was not enforceable.

If you think that's corruption, you need to learn the meaning of that word.

Phil, I know exactly what corruption means, and these last series of events wreaks of it.

Tigers breaking the cap came from an academy player breaking into the first team and his salary being included in the cap calculation because he paid more than the threshold number of games. Tigers paid their fine. We have also been docked a point for fielding our own player who was coming back from loan and whose paperwork had not been completed in time.

We took our punishments. If Sarries and Bath have broken the cap they should take theirs. Not worm their way out of it and try to sweep it under the carpet.

It points to a larger problem. The lack of an independent arm of the PRL that audits the cap and reports publically on am annual basis and also has the ability to impose fines and sanctions.

Londontiger I like you. Think you're a good poster but when it comes to Tigers I get the impression you think they are better than the rest.

Also I have a lot of respect for Tigers - been one of the consistently best club sides in the AP, best supported club, great players over the years who I admire.

Though saying that Tigers aren't a squeaky clean club. Don't pretend they are.

I know Saracens aren't perfect. They are as flawed as a club can get and if probably should be punished but doesn't mean they are the only side who breaks the rules.

Same with other sides who try and take the moral high ground.

Bullying? One side or two should not be able to bully ten other sides...

Do you honestly think it's right that Tigers can't retain the likes of Salvi,Castro,Ford and 36?

Personally I think it's unfair on Tigers. You can criticise Saracens and Bath but I think the system is broken.

I very much doubt Leicester will make the Top 4 this year. We are not as good as we were, that is our problem. When have i ever pretended we are squeaky clean.

Saracens dealing with Wasps is where i am concerned about poaching. BillyV may have left anyway, but the fact that Saracens could ignore the salary cap and double his salary helps.

I am pleased that Launchbury resisted the same tactic and stayed with Wasps - on much less than Sarries offered him.

I am glad that Sarries failed in their attempt to sign Cole using the same tactic.

Our failings are our failings and Wasps and Exeter will be better than us playing by the rules.


I like the way Bath play, I respect much of Sarries activities (though the way they sacked friends of mine was cowardly and evil). However both would be bankrupt in seconds if their backers pulled out - yet they feel happy to spend even more money than they are allowed to ensure they have the squad depth they want.

Londontiger

Billy Vunipola leaving Wasps was partially down to his brother being at Saracens. The Vunipola family decided that they wanted the brothers to be at the same club.

I know you think it's just about the money but it's really not.

Yes perhaps they would be bankrupt if their backers pulled out but don't forget Saracens have only recently acquired their own stadium. They can now build a more solid platform.

As for Sarries activities - I know quite a bit about the good,bad and ugly. Well not particularly about sackings but other stuff.

After the RWC I will probably quit the forums.

beshocked wrote:After the RWC I will probably quit the forums.

Why ?

beshocked wrote:You can criticise Saracens and Bath but I think the system is broken.

Beshocked - there's nothing wrong with the system, Bath and Saracens got caught - what is wrong is that by a combination of bribery and threats they've got away with it scott free.

What I find amusing is that they think by brushing this under the carpet they are protecting the "brand" of rugby and "their businesses", when in fact they have done the complete opposite - they have showed the whole professional game in England to lack integrity and honesty by firstly cheating on the rules that they agreed to in the first place - and make no mistake this is cheating if not actually downright fraud - and then having been caught proceed to bluff and bluster their way through as though it is a matter of no import.

At some point hopefully someone from the mainstream media who's not in the PRL's pockets will pick up on this, like what happened over Bloodgate.

What has happened in the Avivia over this is no different to drug taking in athletics or cycling, it's people who have deliberately flouted the rules to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the field who broke the rules.

Next time you are watching Saracens spank Worcester or London Irish or Sale maybe instead of thinking "Another great victory for the Sarries" think of it as Lance Armstrong winning the Tour de France or Ben Johnson winning a 100m gold.e

So do we think any real information will come out of the announcement this week? There seem to be a lot of rumours flying about.

Personally I think the clubs should be punished with a points docking (even though I would assume that includes the team in my username). I also think that looking at the squads of Sarries, Bath, Tigers, Gloucester, Northampton and Wasps, they would all be close to if not over the limit, especially when you compare them to the likes of Sale, who claim they are at the cap themselves.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

What would you call this recent series of events then Phil ?

Standard business practice.

Yep, if it was the Pro12 it would be corrupt, but seeing as it's the AP/PRL it's standard business practice. What hypocrisy....

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

What would you call this recent series of events then Phil ?

Standard business practice Cheating.

There I put it right for you.

That's potentially actionable, too. If they were cheating then they'd have been caught and punished.

They were cheating. The cheating has been swept under the carpet. Is that actionable enough for you?

Bathman_in_London wrote: I also think that looking at the squads of Sarries, Bath, Tigers, Gloucester, Northampton and Wasps, they would all be close to if not over the limit, .

Really? £5.5m plus 2 marquee players?

Isn't that roughly what Toulon spent last season?

Bathman_in_London wrote: I also think that looking at the squads of Sarries, Bath, Tigers, Gloucester, Northampton and Wasps, they would all be close to if not over the limit, especially when you compare them to the likes of Sale, who claim they are at the cap themselves.

i sincerely hope we are not as our squad is pants. Two of the 3 migrants to Devon have all received hefty pay rises in recent times. But if we are over I woudl want us to be punished with the agreed punishment.

LondonTiger wrote:Well, officially the investigation will be terminated this week with no teams to be punished. Note they will not say teams were innocent.


Officially the truth of the matter will be kept under wraps, but there are enough disatisfied members of the PRL organisation for much of the story to leak out. It will get embellished of course and things will look worse than they are.

So, unofficially:

Saracens and Bath both agreed they broke the salary cap rules (by over £1m), but effectively stated the rules were illegal. They threatened to sue, refused to sign  the agreement to expand the AP, refused to sign the new TV deal with BT and all other new deals unless let off. Two other clubs, they suggested had also broken the cap by smaller amounts (Saints and Quins the names mentioned). They did however also agree to get their houses more in order.

The decision to enforce no penalties was agreed unanimously, but only after 3 clubs wer brow beaten to accept this (again names I have heard are Sale, Falcons and Wasps).

Finally what really tips me over the edge is my own club supposedly backed the cheaters if they agreed not to tap up Manu.



I am completely disgusted and angered by the process.

That sucks completely if true. Hope they put that little asterix after Bath and Saracens results from last year that they do in baseball to reflect CHEAT.

It would be great to have nfl/nba/mlb type disclosure of contracts. Put it all out on the table, all professional leagues (including any elements paid to players/clubs for Test appearances and any other financial arrangements).

The sense I get is that a couple of clubs broke the terms of a contract but all parties to the contract have agreed that no further action needs to be taken. Those that broke the terms are easy enough to understand. The motivation behind the other parties agreeing to no further action is the bit that sits uneasy.

Are they 'saving the brand' because its 'too big to fail'? Or does this rot the brand to the very core?

It was/is also a voluntary contract that everyone signed up to, so it is strange that terms that each clubs opted to adhere to are now unenforceable. Is the entire contract in fact void as a result.

Quite often in politics, it isn't the wrong deed that brings down a politician in the end but the actions to cover it up.

It is also almost Blair-esque in its timing, drop the bad news into the media when RWC and refugees are taking up the column inches in order to 'manage' the outrage. Definitely pro's.

Chunky, the claims are for the previous season I think, so with the cap at a lower level.

LT, well maybe, but your 1st team for the year in question (I know not everyone was fit etc.) would have had a majority of internationals in it and quite a few Lions too. If we believe that Sale were near the cap, then there is a big difference in quality which can't all be accounted for by a desire to play for Leicester (or any of the other clubs I mentioned).

Lorddowlais because I need to.

Irish Londoner the system is broken because the salary cap is too low.

You can't compare it to Lance Armstrong because the salary cap itself is flawed.

Just because something is in the rules doesn't mean it's logical or intelligent.

The likes of London Irish,Sale and Worcester have been dictating to the likes of Saracens and Bath. That's not right.

You say that Saracens and Bath have bullied the other clubs, on the contrary it's been the other way round. Bath and Saracens are heavily outnumbered.

Saracens and Bath and other clubs want to keep up with the French clubs, there has to be a balance, personally I think the balance is all wrong.

The lower ranked clubs have been holding back the likes of Leicester,Quins and Saints too.

The clubs have to work together - at the moment there seem to be too many divisions and there are those who are happy to lump the blame on one or two parties but don't look at the bigger picture.


no 7 & 1/2 can the same be done to Quins too for Bloodgate?

Well done my Falcons....

Beshocked you seem to think that everyone is disgusted because its Saracens, and everyone thinks Wray is a knobhead and Ashton is a bell end etc so are using this as an opportunity to take a shot at Sarries

Its not. I have no club allegiance at all, and think this is unbelievable.

I'm 99.99% sure that LT, 7.5, GF, Bathman etc would all want to see punishment handed out no matter which sides it were. Bathman even says that he wants to see the teams punished, including Bath!!!

This is just another example of you battening down the hatches and fighting a battle that doesn't exist on behalf of Sarries

The likes of London Irish,Sale and Worcester have been dictating to the likes of Saracens and Bath. That's not right.

How have they been dictating?

Suppose you could do similar with QUins beshocked, was that in only one instance though? Still * it should be.

Well yes I do Bambam think it seems like a shot at Sarries.

To be honest I shouldn't really care. I am no longer a season ticket holder at Saracens. As far as I am concerned they have burnt their bridges with me. It's just hard to let go of the allegiance even though they don't deserve my loyalty.

The reason why I will quit the forum is I need to shut myself from everything to do with rugby union. Watching rugby and following Saracens and rugby union.It's taken up too much of my life. I will do it after the RWC.

It's really not worth it. It's about changing my lifestyle.

The reason I defend Wray is because I respect what he's tried to do and done at Saracens as a fan for a long time.

It's not as straightforward as black and white. To be honest I could just nod my head and say give Saracens a kicking -there are certain individuals I would love to see get their come uppance.

Geordiefalcon restricting the salary cap.

They deserve a kicking beshocked if they have cheated like this.

Beshocked, as you know I have no axe to grind with Saracens, they are the partner club to my own team, they are generous in their sponsorship of the junior leagues and do what they can to help us.

I'm not disputing that there may be a problem with the size of the salary cap, indeed there may be an arguement that for the AP clubs to compete against the French it may need to be greatly increased or just scrapped.

However I'm sorry I can't agree with you on this one - all the clubs signed up to the salary cap together and therefore all the clubs should have stuck to it, that's how in the term that gets bandied around here "a business agreement" works, you don't agree to a set of rules and then go straight out and break them because you had you fingers crossed behind your back when you were signing up to it.

The rules may not be logical or intelligent however the fact remains that they are "the rules".

Much of what you then say about the "lower ranked (i.e. poorer teams) supposedly controlling the two big rich teams is the sort of rubbish you expect from the apologists for the Premier League in football where money talks and devil takes the hindmost - do you really think the Aviva is going to have a product in five years if the only determinant of a team is who has the most money so we're stuck with Bath and Sarcacens coming top in perpetuity unless another club finds a Nigel Wray/Roman Abramovich figure to propel them up the table - it's going to be hard for the "lower ranked clubs that hold everyone back" to stay in the league from a finance point of view and even the better supported clubs will start to lose support - do you think that Gloucester V Bath is going to have the same intensity after a few years when Bath start coming out with bonus point wins season after season, due to their purchasing power?

The bigger picture is that the Aviva is corrupt and the teams at the top are there by cheating - they broke the rules and appear to be getting away with it.

Geordiefalcon restricting the salary cap.

But Saracens, Bath , Quins and Saints have simply ignored the cap anyway...so the other clubs haven't been dictating.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I don't think there is much evidence to suggest that there will be Qs forming to see the Dragons playing the Falcons.

Well, I'd imagine it would certainly add more than €900,000 a year to the TV deal.

I'd say that particular fixture would add nothing.

No axe to grind with Saracens? You seem to criticise them a lot for someone who doesn't.


I do have a problem with what you've just said. Even smaller clubs can outvote bigger ones.

10 vs 2. Think you are overexaggerating the power of Saracens and Bath they cannot overpower the wishes of 10 other clubs.

Well obviously Bath and Saracens haven't agreed with the rules hence this...

The spending in rugby union is nothing like football.



I don't think Gloucester are doing badly because of the salary cap. I just think that's an excuse.

Gloucester signed the likes of Hibbard,Afoa,Laidlaw,Hook last season - not unknown players.

A Gloucester XV

1.Wood
2.Hibbard
3.Afoa
4.Stooke
5.Savage
6.Moriarty
7.Ksevic
8.Morgan

9.Laidlaw
10.Hook
11.May
12.Twelvetrees
13.Trinder
14.Sharples
15.Cook

Pretty good XV I would say. 11 internationals.

Is the cap to blame for them not performing to their utmost ability?

Some clubs tried the big bucks approach - Sale did - they almost got relegated.

Now that Diamond and Sale are playing less high profile players the results have improved because focus has been more on teamwork than individual star power.

Have to be careful to not fall into the trap of blaming the so called breach of the salary cap for underperformance of certain sides.

Someone has to take the other side of the argument.

'Well obviously Bath and Saracens haven't agreed with the rules hence this...'

IE they've cheated and should be kicked.

BamBam wrote:Beshocked you seem to think that everyone is disgusted because its Saracens, and everyone thinks Wray is a knobhead and Ashton is a bell end etc so are using this as an opportunity to take a shot at Sarries

Its not. I have no club allegiance at all, and think this is unbelievable.

I'm 99.99% sure that LT, 7.5, GF, Bathman etc would all want to see punishment handed out no matter which sides it were. Bathman even says that he wants to see the teams punished, including Bath!!!

This is just another example of you battening down the hatches and fighting a battle that doesn't exist on behalf of Sarries

Well, at least one out of three is true at any rate.

Thing with Saracens is that they work hard in the local community at all age levels, to promote the sport, they have a good academy which is now providing some key players for England. Lots of things they do are good. They should be applauded. But....you know what.... Then they're implicated in this sort of thing and you just can't respect them.

Jimpy don't disagree with that.

no 7 & 1/2 fine, they should do it then. I guess the reason they haven't is because it would be cutting off their nose to spite their face, especially just before the RWC.The amount of damage you would do is the reason it hasn't come out.

Yeah that was the response before the world cup. Personally didn't like that but fine, should still have the investigation and release the findings though. If guilty Bath and Saracens should punished. Would make the winners of the prem hard to say, probably just have to award it to Saints.

beshocked wrote:

Have to be careful to not fall into the trap of blaming the so called breach of the salary cap for underperformance of certain sides.

Some teams have clearly underperformed, but if you are suggesting that there is no correlation between that and others breaking the rules of the salary cap then you are either deluded or on the wind up!  Bath and Saracens were apparently about a million pounds each over the cap.  That's potentially 3 or 4 international class players.  you don't think that makes a difference and gives them an advantage?

Yeah, yeah, I get it's all the fault of the likes of Irish, Sale and Worcester holding them back, I really do.  I absolutely feel for Bath and Saracens not being able to legitimately throw their money around like Toulon, to the detriment of every other rugby club in this country.  How simply awful for them!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Chunky, the claims are for the previous season I think, so with the cap at a lower level.

LT, well maybe, but your 1st team for the year in question (I know not everyone was fit etc.) would have had a majority of internationals in it and quite a few Lions too. If we believe that Sale were near the cap, then there is a big difference in quality which can't all be accounted for by a desire to play for Leicester (or any of the other clubs I mentioned).

If Sale were butting right up to the cap - they are paying over the odds.

As to whether we breached the cap - do not know for last season, but having reviewed the accounts for the year ended summer 2014 the only way we would have breache dthe 2013/14 cap is to have made payments that were undisclosed to the Taxman. If that occurred - well we are in much bigger poo-poo than merely rugby.

I will accept that we are very fast to put players on the long term injured list - and sometime wonder if that ius a deliberate ploy to stay under the cap (last season the bulk of money paid to Allen and Manu will not have fallen under the cap as they were on the long term injured list)

Ozzy3213Well no I don't think Gloucester and London Irish were poor because of the salary cap

Gloucester in particular should have been much better with the players I mentioned.

IMO most of London Irish's top prospects left because London Irish have been performing poorly in the last 3 seasons - 9th,10th and 10th plus they wanted to rejoin with Toby Booth at Bath. A talent drain was unfortunate but if LI had performed better I am not convinced it would have happened.

You could add so called world class players but it doesn't mean they'll perform.

So there is no correlation between London Irish losing 4 of their best prospects to the team paying over the salary cap, and breaches of the salary cap affecting the performance of London Irish?!!!

I'll repeat, for the sake of clarity, you are either deluded or on the wind up, because I know you're not stupid.

Ozzy3213 do you think those players moved to Bath just because of the money?

You don't think they partially moved because they felt that Bath were on the up? Would be reunited with former LI coach Toby Booth? Left so they could achieve something together in a different environment?

Why do most posters think that moving to another club is just about money? It's not. Could be plenty of factors.

No it didn't help but it's not as if London Irish were performing well with those prospects at the club.