AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by yappysnap Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:44 am

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

by Pot Hale Wed 20 May 2015, 12:30 am

LordDowlais wrote:Lads, it's pointless trying to debate tidy with our Irish friends on here, they are the fonts of all knowledge when it comes to rugby, and they will not take another point of view for an answer.

Really?

So your point of view is that all the Irish posters on here will not take another point of view for an answer?

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 20 May 2015, 1:36 am

Sin é wrote:Saying the website is out of date is just an excuse. Saracens are not very good at encouraging interest from your youthful players if Saracens can't be bothered to list them as being members of their academy.

Unsurprisingly, that flies in the face of everything you've been told in this thread.

by Sin é Wed 20 May 2015, 9:20 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Saying the website is out of date is just an excuse. Saracens are not very good at encouraging interest from your youthful players if Saracens can't be bothered to list them as being members of their academy.

Unsurprisingly, that flies in the face of everything you've been told in this thread.

And my guess is as good as anyone's here. Actions (not listed on the website) speaks louder than words. If I was a young kid who had worked hard to get into the so-called Saracens 'Academy', I'd be put out that they couldn't even be bothered to list me as being in their academy.

Very poor from Saracens if that is the case. They are well able to update their website on the Sarcens Global Network and all they are doing for these very lucky clubs in faraway places who benefit from all the training expertise of the Saracens Academy staff.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 May 2015, 9:41 am

Get in touch with Saracens and request it then Sin if it bothers you so much.

by SecretFly Wed 20 May 2015, 9:51 am

"Dear Nigel,

I'm writing to you from over here in Munster. And I must express my profound concer.............................."

Nige: "Bin that schit. Another begging letter from some charity organisation"

by HammerofThunor Wed 20 May 2015, 10:02 am

Sin é wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Saying the website is out of date is just an excuse. Saracens are not very good at encouraging interest from your youthful players if Saracens can't be bothered to list them as being members of their academy.

Unsurprisingly, that flies in the face of everything you've been told in this thread.

And my guess is as good as anyone's here. Actions (not listed on the website) speaks louder than words. If I was a young kid who had worked hard to get into the so-called Saracens 'Academy', I'd be put out that they couldn't even be bothered to list me as being in their academy.

Very poor from Saracens if that is the case. They are well able to update their website on the Sarcens Global Network and all they are doing for these very lucky clubs in faraway places who benefit from all the training expertise of the Saracens Academy staff.

So you'd be in it for the fame? You'd give a damn what a bunch of losers on a forum think? Fair dos, each to their own. I'd be happy just to be in their academy.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 20 May 2015, 10:10 am

Sin é wrote:And my guess is as good as anyone's here.

So far, your guesses have been the worst on show.

by lostinwales Wed 20 May 2015, 11:44 am

SecretFly wrote:
I keep saying Sin is a smart one.

So being smart means taking a single position and repeating your same argument ad nauseum whilst ignoring anybody else's point of view until they all quit?

by SecretFly Wed 20 May 2015, 11:51 am

I also said his persistence annoys people... Wink

Take it from me, he's smart. Not always right - but smart.

by broadlandboy Wed 20 May 2015, 12:28 pm

Depends on your definition of smart.
"The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind"

by Guest Wed 20 May 2015, 12:37 pm

So it isn't that sin e is so smart. Just the rest of us are thick. I can deal with that Very Happy

by HammerofThunor Wed 20 May 2015, 12:43 pm

So to be smart you have to be relentless annoying (whether you're right or wrong is irrelevant). I guess Nigel Wray must be considered a genius.

by Guest Wed 20 May 2015, 12:47 pm

Wray is an evil genius, and as every good movie shows, evil loses in the end.

broadlandboy thinks we're all a bit thick. Won't disagree, but I trust he includes himself in that little gem Very Happy

by Jimpy Wed 20 May 2015, 1:12 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:So to be smart you have to be relentless annoying (whether you're right or wrong is irrelevant). I guess Nigel Wray must be considered a genius.

He's as persistent as a dose of the clap, and twice as annoying.

by broadlandboy Wed 20 May 2015, 1:14 pm

by doctor_grey Wed 20 May 2015, 6:04 pm

Munchkin wrote:Wray is an evil genius, and as every good movie shows, evil loses in the end.

broadlandboy thinks we're all a bit thick. Won't disagree, but I trust he includes himself in that little gem

AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation! - Page 15 DarthVader-CotF

by Guest Wed 20 May 2015, 7:01 pm

Ha! May the Force be with you angel

by SecretFly Wed 20 May 2015, 10:26 pm

As expected - big discussion now on the definition of 'smart' Laugh

Wray + Sin = Smart?

Yeah. I guess that'll do.

by doctor_grey Thu 21 May 2015, 12:30 am

SecretFly wrote:As expected - big discussion now on the definition of 'smart'

Wray + Sin = Smart?

Yeah. I guess that'll do.

Well, we already agreed Wray is evil. AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation! - Page 15 DarthVader-CotF

What else is there to talk about?

by SecretFly Thu 21 May 2015, 9:38 am

Evil + Darth = Sexy
Wray = Sexy
Wray = Smart
Wray + Sin = Smart
Sin = Sexy

Sin'll be delighted to hear how the equations worked out! Wink

And all scientifically and mathematically proven as factual for a change.

by beshocked Thu 21 May 2015, 10:40 am

Sin e I am sorry. I really don't understand your point.

The way I see it I don't think there is an issue with the way Saracens have developed players irrelevant whether you call it "academy" or not.

Plenty of them are young and English. Yes some of them are English but you know what - Saracens actually have helped players of other countries too.

Also if a team can turn someone into a better player I don't see what's wrong with that.

Most of the current Saracens players have made their reputations at the club.

Even Mako who was brought in from Bristol was just an ex U20s prospect. Saracens have helped him become a B & I Lion.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:18 am

Well, officially the investigation will be terminated this week with no teams to be punished. Note they will not say teams were innocent.

Officially the truth of the matter will be kept under wraps, but there are enough disatisfied members of the PRL organisation for much of the story to leak out. It will get embellished of course and things will look worse than they are.

So, unofficially:

Saracens and Bath both agreed they broke the salary cap rules (by over £1m), but effectively stated the rules were illegal. They threatened to sue, refused to sign the agreement to expand the AP, refused to sign the new TV deal with BT and all other new deals unless let off. Two other clubs, they suggested had also broken the cap by smaller amounts (Saints and Quins the names mentioned). They did however also agree to get their houses more in order.

The decision to enforce no penalties was agreed unanimously, but only after 3 clubs wer brow beaten to accept this (again names I have heard are Sale, Falcons and Wasps).

Finally what really tips me over the edge is my own club supposedly backed the cheaters if they agreed not to tap up Manu.

I am completely disgusted and angered by the process.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:25 am

LT, I cannot believe what I have just read, please tell me that you have over egged what went on due to your frustrations.

That all sounds so corrupt. The clubs in England are getting a little bit too powerful, this is not good for rugby union. thumbsdown

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:42 am

This was all in the rugby paper yesterday.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:45 am

Hopefully more will become clearer on Wednesday - but my "informant" was not a happy bunny. not sure anything is particularly over egged, but we may have both been guilty of that.

As this is a completely internal matter affecting only the clubs, not so sure this is a case of the clubs being too powerful. More a case of one club lawyer being bigger than another. Or possibly benefactors becoming too powerful. Clubs that can sustain massive losses care nothing about having commercial payments delayed. Clubs run on a genuine affordability basis could have been bankrupted by this.

The only slither of hope for me is that the actions in the "transfer market" this summer do suggest that the guilty parties are taking measures to reduce their salary excesses.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:46 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:This was all in the rugby paper yesterday.

Phew, that must mean it is wrong.

Not where I got my info from, but just maybe my source is wrong.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:53 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:This was all in the rugby paper yesterday.

Phew, that must mean it is wrong.

Not where I got my info from, but just maybe my source is wrong.

I think your info seems about right. The only bit I would raise my eyebrows at is "3 clubs were brow beaten to accept this". I would think they were appeased rather than brow beaten.

The whole point of the PRL is to be a collective entity working for the betterment of all parties. I undnerstand that I'd be peed off mightily if I was a Sale fan, and my club had adhered to the regs and others hadn't. But sometimes I think English club rugby fans don't realise how lucky they are to be in such a fantastically organised comeptition whose collective clout is so much that they will always be in a fantastically organised comeptition.

Others aren't so lucky. Crying or Very sad

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:55 am

I would call it organised corruptness. Rolling Eyes

by **LondonTiger** Mon 07 Sep 2015, 9:56 am

I think fans of any club that have seen players poached by a team that blithely ignores the cap to be able to do so would be peed off.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:02 am

So are we to expect an announcement of the Aviva Premeirship expansion on Thursday then?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:08 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:So are we to expect an announcement of the Aviva Premeirship expansion on Thursday then?

I suspect so, and the end of the LV cup probably.

by Guest Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:10 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:This was all in the rugby paper yesterday.

Phew, that must mean it is wrong.

Not where I got my info from, but just maybe my source is wrong.

I think your info seems about right. The only bit I would raise my eyebrows at is "3 clubs were brow beaten to accept this". I would think they were appeased rather than brow beaten.

The whole point of the PRL is to be a collective entity working for the betterment of all parties. I undnerstand that I'd be peed off mightily if I was a Sale fan, and my club had adhered to the regs and others hadn't. But sometimes I think English club rugby fans don't realise how lucky they are to be in such a fantastically organised comeptition whose collective clout is so much that they will always be in a fantastically organised comeptition.

Others aren't so lucky.

Chunky, you are a complete and utter hypocrite. If this had have happened with the Pro12, you would be consumed with rage at how unjust this wholly corrupt organised competition is.

As for the news; no surprise at all. It isn't as if many didn't strongly suspect that it would all be swept under the carpet. If those guilty clubs have now amended their ways, then great. I don't believe they have though. I believe this issue will resurface again in the future. Why wouldn't it?

by Sin é Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:18 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:This was all in the rugby paper yesterday.

Phew, that must mean it is wrong.

Not where I got my info from, but just maybe my source is wrong.

I think your info seems about right. The only bit I would raise my eyebrows at is "3 clubs were brow beaten to accept this". I would think they were appeased rather than brow beaten.

The whole point of the PRL is to be a collective entity working for the betterment of all parties. I undnerstand that I'd be peed off mightily if I was a Sale fan, and my club had adhered to the regs and others hadn't. But sometimes I think English club rugby fans don't realise how lucky they are to be in such a fantastically organised comeptition whose collective clout is so much that they will always be in a fantastically organised comeptition.

Others aren't so lucky.

and you still think that the Welsh regions joining the PRL was a runner laughing

The Rugby Paper wrote:Some Premiership clubs were known to be lukewarm over expansion proposals, with Leicester chief executive Simon Cohen recently expressing concern over splitting £41m in central revenues 14 ways instead of 12.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:20 am

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky, you are a complete and utter hypocrite. If this had have happened with the Pro12, you would be consumed with rage at how unjust this wholly corrupt organised competition is.

As I've just said, if I was a fan of Sale I'd be peed off. I'm not sure if you managed to read that bit.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:21 am

Sin é wrote:
and you still think that the Welsh regions joining the PRL was a runner

Not joining the PRL. That's imposible. Expanding the Anglo Welsh league.

by PhilBB Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:22 am

Sin é wrote:
and you still think that the Welsh regions joining the PRL was a runner

You're comparing splitting the existing market with a potential new competition in a greater market. And you end that with a 'laughing' childish picture.

I'm not sure that you had thought that through.

That said, salary caps are a complete waste of time, they are unenforceable and should be scrapped. Then you can have a really skewed league where one organisation with a turnover many times that of its competitors can gerrymander four teams to the point of making the competition worthless.

by Irish Londoner Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:31 am

Welcome to another step towards Premiership Rugby becoming more like it's football counterpart, the rich can do what they like and the remainder are either bought off or pressured into going along with it.

If there ever was some form of moral superiority over football in our sport it's just been dead and buried.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:35 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Welcome to another step towards Premiership Rugby becoming more like it's football counterpart, the rich can do what they like and the remainder are either bought off or pressured into going along with it.

If there ever was some form of moral superiority over football in our sport it's just been dead and buried.

The English league will end up like the French league before long, and that means another half a dozen teams with the potential to poach the best players from Wales. Crying or Very sad

This is going to be the death knell of rugby union. Between the rich owners and clubs in France and England they will end up killing the international game.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:37 am

LordDowlais wrote:

The English league will end up like the French league before long, and that means another half a dozen teams with the potential to poach the best players from Wales.

That's not the English clubs fault. They have a successful, booming product. If the Irish, Scots and Welsh really want to avoid your scenario, then they need to get their collective brain in gear and lobby for a British and Irish League. I've been spouting this for 2 years now, yet nobody seems to care about the impending doom until it's too late

Blazertastic.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:38 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

The English league will end up like the French league before long, and that means another half a dozen teams with the potential to poach the best players from Wales.

That's not the English clubs fault. They have a successful, booming product. If the Irish, Scots and Welsh really want to avoid your scenario, then they need to get their collective brain in gear and lobby for a British and Irish League. I've been spouting this for 2 years now, yet nobody seems to care about the impending doom until it's too late

Blazertastic.

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

by Heaf Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:39 am

LondonTiger wrote:I think fans of any club that have seen players poached by a team that blithely ignores the cap to be able to do so would be peed off.

Put me on that list ...

by Chunky Norwich Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

We're already in one for a kick off.

You either get wth the programme or as you say, you cease to exist as a pro sport. What would you choose?

by Guest Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:40 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Chunky, you are a complete and utter hypocrite. If this had have happened with the Pro12, you would be consumed with rage at how unjust this wholly corrupt organised competition is.

As I've just said, if I was a fan of Sale I'd be peed off. I'm not sure if you managed to read that bit.

It was the sickly sweet nauseating remainder of your reply that I was commenting on.

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:43 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

We're already in one for a kick off.

You either get wth the programme or as you say, you cease to exist as a pro sport. What would you choose?

So, out of the frying pan, into the fire then ? Rolling Eyes

by king_carlos Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:43 am

LondonTiger wrote:Finally what really tips me over the edge is my own club supposedly backed the cheaters if they agreed not to tap up Manu.

That would be idiotic and infuriating not only from a long term view point, with regards to the cap, but also in the short term, i.e. keeping Manu, given there is no way to make said club keep to such an agreement.

This would seem to be already getting proven given that rumours of Manu's possible departure are far from going away. In fact they have only picked up pace with Brian Tuilagi signing given he and Manu share an agent - Brians dad and Manu's uncle if I am correct!

by PhilBB Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Welcome to another step towards Premiership Rugby becoming more like it's football counterpart, the rich can do what they like and the remainder are either bought off or pressured into going along with it.

If there ever was some form of moral superiority over football in our sport it's just been dead and buried.

The English league will end up like the French league before long, and that means another half a dozen teams with the potential to poach the best players from Wales.

This is going to be the death knell of rugby union. Between the rich owners and clubs in France and England they will end up killing the international game.

Hyperbolic, naturally, but it can only be a good thing if the game is wrestled away from the Blazers at Union level. There is far, far too much international rugby played.

by PhilBB Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

by LordDowlais Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:52 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

What would you call this recent series of events then Phil ?

by PhilBB Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:54 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Why would we want to join a league that has corrupt owners and clubs ?

That's the second actionable post I've read on here in a week.

What is it with this place?

What would you call this recent series of events then Phil ?

Standard business practice.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 07 Sep 2015, 10:59 am

king_carlos wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Finally what really tips me over the edge is my own club supposedly backed the cheaters if they agreed not to tap up Manu.

That would be idiotic and infuriating not only from a long term view point, with regards to the cap, but also in the short term, i.e. keeping Manu, given there is no way to make said club keep to such an agreement.

This would seem to be already getting proven given that rumours of Manu's possible departure are far from going away. In fact they have only picked up pace with Brian Tuilagi signing given he and Manu share an agent - Brians dad and Manu's uncle if I am correct!

There were some other players mentioned. Bath may be in the market for a SH next year, Sarries and Bath for second row forwards. Whatever the reasons, tigers have singed up to the plan not to punish the cheaters.

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