Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Very little experience (Haskell, Ashton, Youngs, Easter?) carried forward from the last RWC and since England have no current pedigree in round robin competition coupled with recent squad dramas they have it all to do in the autumn.

Thanks Hammer. Surprising that Corbs, Billy and Goode have so few caps.

So allowing for warm-up games, it's likely that about half the starting side will have 40+ caps, which is not a bad place to be. The big worry is that from 10-14 we'll be fielding a group with an average of 10-14 caps each, which isn't really enough to gel properly as a unit - we can only hope that an extended training camp makes a big difference.

Did Corbs start every 2012 Six Nations game? If so, that'll be the longest run of games he's ever had. Stevens had started the RWC 2011 game v France apparently and Sheridan was also around for Corbs' first year in the team.

Billy has also only been around 2 years. Should have made his debut in the 2013 Six Nations after Morgan's injury in hindsight, and indeed in a lot of people's foresight...

I know these things are completely pointless, but I'm watching the u20s so it's occurred to me to do a 2019 team prediction. What sticks out is just how many of the current team should still be around for it. Surprised Ben Youngs is only 25 for one thing.

15. Nowell
14. Watson
13. Joseph
12. Slade
11. May
10. Ford
9. Youngs

1. Marler/Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Clifford
8. Vunipola

Thoth, Billy was also returning from injury/injured at the same time as Morgan.

HammerofThunor wrote:Thoth, Billy was also returning from injury/injured at the same time as Morgan.

He had a bit of an ankle (I think) injury towards the end of the 2013 6N but was fit for the Wales game and should have already played vs Ireland or France. I think it was only the Italy game he missed through injury.

thomh wrote:I know these things are completely pointless, but I'm watching the u20s so it's occurred to me to do a 2019 team prediction. What sticks out is just how many of the current team should still be around for it. Surprised Ben Youngs is only 25 for one thing.

15. Nowell
14. Watson
13. Joseph
12. Slade
11. May
10. Ford
9. Youngs

1. Marler/Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Clifford
8. Vunipola

That looks very plausible. It's a frightening pack, especially when you consider who might be on the bench.

Thomh, he was selected for the France game and then got injured in training (at least that's what Lancaster said afterwards). I believe he was called up to the squad late after Morgan got injured. Arguably he should have been there instead of Waldrum but with Morgan not being experienced I can see why they didn't go for 2 rookie 8s (even if it was mistake with hindsight).

But this is all irrelevant. Yes, he should have been capped in 2013 6 Nations

MichaelT wrote:We need to give players a chance - especially at 12. Pick someone and stick with them. For a year at least. Its poor for me we have only ever had one player with over 100 caps, and he retired 12 years ago. Most other countries have 4 or 5 players with over 100 caps.

Haskell does have plenty of caps though, so not sure what his issue is.

This topic came up before when we were looking at who might be in the squad

https://www.606v2.com/t58453p150-your-pre-world-cup-squad-england#2998347

The other explanations here about competition between, say, Youngs and Care splitting the cap count are relevant but injury, form and selection indecision are big factors. Injury is probably the most significant, since it affected form, and the willingness of coaches to select players.

Our cap count this year isn't helped by Hartley's ill discipline. It's also likely a fit and in-form Foden would have 50 by now, and a stronger chance of making the cut. In some positions, we've done as well as we could hope. Unless we planned to rely on Flood or Hodgson, all our fly half options debuted under Lancaster (or, in Cipriani's case, only had a few caps). Getting Farrell to 29 caps and Ford to 11 isn't too bad, considering.

I see Twelvetrees and Haskell as having similar attributes and issues. On paper, they both have all the attributes, skills and physical ability to be exceptional in their roles. On the pitch, they frequently seem to be unable to make the most of those talents, usually through making decisions that aren't right for the circumstances.

Excellent summary...and I agree totally. I wouldn't have Haskell in the squad either, unless he will play that strict tough tackling, tough carrying role...forget about all else. But Lancaster doesn't like his flankers playing that way,

How does Strettle moving to france next season affect him? Flood wasn't really considered after making that decision as far as I remember and was wondering if it opened the door for Wade slightly?

Flood wasn't considered after agreeing the move yes, but that was because the moment Lancaster knew he wouldn't be available for the World Cup he decided he couldn't afford to waste any more caps on him, rather than a case of the future move ruling him out automatically.

Not sure on Strettle, but one report said that Lancaster has indicated off the record that he might have chosen differently if he'd known.

Things could change dramatically in 4 years.

Look at Nowell - He looks a cracking player....but he's seen as a 15,14,13. Where will he end up.

Players like Sam Hill coming through at 12.

The back row will probably change post wc. Many of the other positions have youngsters in as it it. That's scary.

But others like Sinkler could put themselves in the mix.

Im convinced we wont win this WC...but we will be immensely strong come the next one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How does Strettle moving to france next season affect him? Flood wasn't really considered after making that decision as far as I remember and was wondering if it opened the door for Wade slightly?

Ive been a bit concerned about Wades defensive issues...but ive had a change of mind.

You need game changers and try scorers in there...and for me Wade should be included. I think its criminal that he's not.

Geordiefalcon I agree Wade has defensive issues but so does May,Ashton,Yarde and Watson.

Would have preferred to see Wade instead of Strettle. Strettle had a better season than Wade but he's 31 - he's had his chances in my opinion.

He's just a completely different option and does what no other English winger can do, just creates from nothing.People would target him of course but may be worth the risk, don't think his tackling is bad but positioning still lets him down, albeit much improved this season.

Do you think anyone might be added to the finals squad who hasn't been in the 50?

Someone like Wade or Clifford etc or a total wild card. Or is it likely that the only minor surprises will be from Itoje, Burgess or Slade making the finals squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think anyone might be added to the finals squad who hasn't been in the 50?

Someone like Wade or Clifford etc or a total wild card. Or is it likely that the only minor surprises will be from Itoje, Burgess or Slade making the finals squad.

Foden seemed to indicate that he will be travelling to the US for the high altitude training camp - that suggested to me that a number of players outside the initial 50 might also be involved. Foden aside, the guys who played in the BaaBaas game but weren't in the squad would look like the obvious candidates, especially the ones who played well.

I assume they will only be able to make the final 31 if someone drops out of the 50 through injury, though.

Poorfour wrote:...Foden seemed to indicate that he will be travelling to the US for the high altitude training camp - that suggested to me that a number of players outside the initial 50 might also be involved...

I thought Lancaster's plan was to have the named 50, plus the any long-term crocks, like Croft and Foden, who could make it back. At this stage, then, that wouldn't include Wade. He would have to be specifically called up.

Lancaster has hinted that he might not have gone for Strettle, had he known of the player's move overseas, but he can't in good conscious kick him out of the squad now. I don't know if that means Wade has to wait on an injury, if the coaches can just decide they want to see something else at a later stage. Of course, there's no guarantee that Wade is actually the next winger in line.

Curiously,

How many of you guys would have selected Wade?

I would have selected Wade in my 50 man training squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Curiously,

How many of you guys would have selected Wade?

Not I, for one. The Barbarians game only confirmed what we already knew: he's a great finisher and creator of individual opportunities, but his defence still needs a lot of work. I think it's a vicious circle: he doesn't position himself correctly, relies on his speed to make up the gap, but that leads to him regularly going into the tackle from a less effective angle and getting bounced or brushed off. He was very reliant on Cipriani to make the cover tackle, which is not a good sign.

It's not as if Wade has been completely ignored by England. He has been in and around the setup and has had opportunities like the Barbarians game.

Think about it this way: what would you do in training if you were the coach? What I would do is to play games where I would focus on attacking down his channel and giving him opportunities against my defensive system. Do you honestly think that Lancaster won't have tried that and won't have based his selection decision on what he learned from it?

(As an aside, I sometimes think that posters on here think Lancaster's an idiot, so I tried to look into what it takes to get a Level 5 coaching qualification. I couldn't find any detail, but there is some on Level 4 (which is what most DoRs are supposed to have). In England, it's 1150 hours of training and QCA Level 7, which is equivalent to a Masters degree. Level 5 presumably goes a meaningful distance beyond that, which implies that it should be QCA Level 8, or PhD level in terms of depth)

Interesting stuff Poorfour....but that's still some way behind Armchair Pundit

I'd have had him in. His defence is mediocre but no worse than Ashton and he offers more going forward than anyone else we've got.

GF,

Are you asking if he woudl have made our cut for the 50 man squad or the 31? I would have had him in my 50 man - but probably as 5th choice winger. As we are probably only taking 3 in the 31 man squad, he would not make that cut.


Against Barbarians I thought Yarde played much better - with Wade being more showy.

LondonTiger wrote:GF,

Are you asking if he woudl have made our cut for the 50 man squad or the 31? I would have had him in my 50 man - but probably as 5th choice winger. As we are probably only taking 3 in the 31 man squad, he would not make that cut.


Against Barbarians I thought Yarde played much better - with Wade being more showy.

That's a good point - Yarde seems to be finding his form and did a lot of work in both attack and defence - including creating opportunities for Wade.

The 50 man squad LT

He does seem to divide opinions.

Would people say it would be May or Wade as the ones who can make thing happen...and Lancaster appears to prefer May?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would people say it would be May or Wade as the ones who can make thing happen...and Lancaster appears to prefer May?

Seems a fair assessment.

Poorfour wrote:...It's not as if Wade has been completely ignored by England...

Not completely, but he's been unlucky with injury, and left out on other occasions. His sole cap came on the Argentina tour in 2013. It might have been better for his England career if he's stayed through but he got a Lions call-up.

He was selected to play in the 2013 Autumn Internationals but was injured. He then got another injury in November to put him out for the 2013/4season - including the NZ tour - and hasn't been seriously considered since. He hasn't failed at Test level, then, just not had a decent opportunity

Another player who got caps on the Argentina tour, only to be ignored for a while afterwards is Jonathan Joseph. I don't see Wade catching a similar selection break, though.

Just out of interest who would people go for in the back 3 selections and do u think Lancaster will pick 4 or 5 players? Brown nowell and Watson seem certain to go. I'd go yarde and if we go for a 5th then foden(if fit)

Brown
Nowell (Ultimately a wing, but he covers 13,14,15)
Watson (14,15)
May (13,14,15)

There will probably be 5 players covering wing and Fb. Assuming foden not fit Lancaster will go with:

Brown
Nowell
Watson
Goode
Yarde/May

If foden fit, well Bomber will probably take him instead of Yarde/May, as we all know he does love a FB

In fact I sometimes think his dream back line would be:

9: Foden
10: Goode
11: May
12: Daly
13: Nowell
14: Watson
15: Brown

all capable of playing FB, and hey would probably beat Scotland

That's a good backline

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's a good backline

That's a fun backline. Not quite so sure of the 'good' bit

I just hope Lancaster doesn't pick both Goode and Brown as i don't trust either to cover another position and I just don't see space for. two specialist full backs. At least foden has the pace to cover wing to a decent standard

Whats not to like about it...?

Pace galore, .....says tries tries tries to me

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats not to like about it...?

Pace galore, .....says tries tries tries to me

Trouble is they are likely to be at both ends.

May has one massive advantage over Wade, re-starts, he has the speed to get to even deep kicks and the hieght to challenge for the ball. Even if he does not win it, he disrupts the defense and stops a clean catch most times. His positioning is better defensively as well, playing a bit at 15 seems to have helped there.

I would rather Watson be seen as cover for Brown rather than having a (second) specialist fullback in the final squad of 31.  Nowell could probably do a job as well, though Watson has played more in the premiership in that position this season and I do see fullback as his real position.

If Brown was injured then he could be replaced by another specialist.  So for me, no Goode in the final 31.

cb wrote:I would rather Watson be seen as cover for Brown rather than having a (second) specialist fullback in the final squad of 31.  Nowell could probably do a job as well, though Watson has played more in the premiership in that position this season and I do see fullback as his real position.

If Brown was injured then he could be replaced by another specialist.  So for me, no Goode in the final 31.

Can't see that happening, No Goode is no good to SL

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

cb wrote:I would rather Watson be seen as cover for Brown rather than having a (second) specialist fullback in the final squad of 31.  Nowell could probably do a job as well, though Watson has played more in the premiership in that position this season and I do see fullback as his real position.

If Brown was injured then he could be replaced by another specialist.  So for me, no Goode in the final 31.

Can't see that happening, No Goode is no good to SL

Goode is seen as cover for 10 and 15 and allows Brown to move to 11. Not saying I agree with that, but I agree with WELL-PAST-IT that he's very likely to make the squad unless Foden and Slade gang up to push him down the stairs or something,

Poorfour wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

cb wrote:I would rather Watson be seen as cover for Brown rather than having a (second) specialist fullback in the final squad of 31.  Nowell could probably do a job as well, though Watson has played more in the premiership in that position this season and I do see fullback as his real position.

If Brown was injured then he could be replaced by another specialist.  So for me, no Goode in the final 31.

Can't see that happening, No Goode is no good to SL

Goode is seen as cover for 10 and 15 and allows Brown to move to 11. Not saying I agree with that, but I agree with WELL-PAST-IT that he's very likely to make the squad unless Foden and Slade gang up to push him down the stairs or something,

Sounds like an excellent idea. Failing that, can we arrange a night out for Goode, Manu, Dylan and Danny?

BamBam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

cb wrote:I would rather Watson be seen as cover for Brown rather than having a (second) specialist fullback in the final squad of 31.  Nowell could probably do a job as well, though Watson has played more in the premiership in that position this season and I do see fullback as his real position.

If Brown was injured then he could be replaced by another specialist.  So for me, no Goode in the final 31.

Can't see that happening, No Goode is no good to SL

Goode is seen as cover for 10 and 15 and allows Brown to move to 11. Not saying I agree with that, but I agree with WELL-PAST-IT that he's very likely to make the squad unless Foden and Slade gang up to push him down the stairs or something,

Sounds like an excellent idea. Failing that, can we arrange a night out for Goode, Manu, Dylan and Danny?

Need to hire a bus as well, having said that, he tackles better than DC so make it a double decker.

Good news - Jo Simpson is back running after his MCL injury and is ready to join up with Wasps for preseason training Wednesday.

He was the form SH last season and hopefully will get the call from England.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Good news - Jo Simpson is back running after his MCL injury and is ready to join up with Wasps for preseason training Wednesday.

He was the form SH last season and hopefully will get the call from England.

He's certainly the form running threat, but are his kicking and passing up to scratch? Lancaster has a strong (and not unreasonable) preference for scrum halves who can clear their own lines.

Poorfour wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Good news - Jo Simpson is back running after his MCL injury and is ready to join up with Wasps for preseason training Wednesday.

He was the form SH last season and hopefully will get the call from England.

He's certainly the form running threat, but are his kicking and passing up to scratch? Lancaster has a strong (and not unreasonable) preference for scrum halves who can clear their own lines.

Yes Poorfour those that watched Jo last season would have seen marked improvements in those aspects of his game. He has a long accurate kick and his passing was a lot more crisp & accurate last season. His running game as you say is second to none & he deserves a shot.

That's a nasty injury...see how he returns from it.

AS for the SH's...it simply depends on their form.

Danny Care and Ben Youngs are both top class when they're on it....but can be extremely average when they're not. That's one of the criticism thrown at them...they inconsistency. Lets hope they can both find top form and maintain it.

Strettle has withdrawn from the squad to settle in with Clermont, Rokoduguni called up to replace him

BamBam wrote:Strettle has withdrawn from the squad to settle in with Clermont, Rokoduguni called up to replace him

Good. Sad we didn't see more of the Strettle who was so much fun to watch when he first played for England, but he was an outside bet for the final 31 and hadn't shown anything for England in the chances he had had for a long time.

Glad for Roko. Sorry for Wade...

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Yes Poorfour those that watched Jo last season would have seen marked improvements in those aspects of his game. He has a long accurate kick and his passing was a lot more crisp & accurate last season. His running game as you say is second to none & he deserves a shot.

There were good noises about him all season, but I can only go on the matches I saw. I saw him play twice and he was poor twice.