Ulster 2015/2016

First topic message reminder :

Thought i would give ol' GC a helping hand and try and get Ulster types looking inward at what has been a tricky season and looking forward to next season and how we should improve. Dont have time to put down all my own theories but will do so later. This thread is a matawalu free zone btw!

It is hilarious that 5th or 6th choice backrowers can happily stay at Leinster because they get plenty of PRO12 time when the Test starters are missing, yet Ulster are expected to lose a 1st or second choice Centre because they have a couple of hopefuls in reserve. Is Ulster now the development province for Leinster? Of course they aren't nor the other way round. It is fine for a player to be and Ulsterman or a Leinsterman and not want to play for another province.

Ulster need a new No8 but more importantly they need someone who wants to play for them. Nucifora's role is a nonsense as it is up to individual players to motivate themselves, plot their own career path and deal with their head/heart balance. If players like Conan, Gilsenan or Butler don't want to play for Ulster then there is really no point in trying to engineer it or incentivise it through an unbalanced swap deal.

The Irish teams are allowed a maximum of 5 NIQ players atm and in a squad of 45 that's a pretty small number. Going to four or less will not make one iota of difference to the National team's success and could actually harm it. The English and French clubs have far bigger playing pools yet they choose to import players because they improve their teams.

The IRFU NIQ restrictions have reached their limit and reducing them further will be counter productive - why can't the IRFU see this?

Agree with all of that, Aukster.

Provincial players won't want to be moved if they are getting games, and of course many will have strong ties with their Province, and want to stay with their Provinces, if possible. Ulster won't be any different to the rest in that regard.

If Nucifora/IRFU has no power to move players from one Province to the next, then yes, you would have to question his role. You would also have to question the wisdom of further reducing the NIQ quota, if that decision was based on players willingly moving from one Province to another. I can see how it might be damaging to the Provinces, and eventually the IRFU.

I applaud the ideal of further limiting the NIQ quota, but not the wisdom of it at this time. Much too soon, and an unnecessary risk.

As I said would not be swapped for a 5th, 6th choice backrower - it would have to better than that.
Marshall would be different because in reality he is behind 4 others as a centre for Ulster.

As I also mentioned in recognition of the fact that the movement of players between provinces doesn't look like it will work for Ulster we may well be allowed 3+2 as opposed to 3+1 for Leinster and Munster.
In addition that 3+2 could be 4+1 for next year if we want to retain de Merwe instead of getting in a second new backrower.

geoff999rugby wrote:As I said would not be swapped for a 5th, 6th choice backrower - it would have to better than that.
Marshall would be different because in reality he is behind 4 others as a centre for Ulster.

As I also mentioned in recognition of the fact that the movement of players between provinces doesn't look like it will work for Ulster we may well be allowed 3+2 as opposed to 3+1 for Leinster and Munster.
In addition that 3+2 could be 4+1 for next year if we want to retain de Merwe instead of getting in a second new backrower.

Geoff - I need to clarify what I mean when I say 5th or 6th choice. The starting backrow are first, second and third choice with the fourth choice on the bench, so the 5th and 6th choice are just below that.

Payne is first choice 13 for Ulster so if he were to be swapped it should be for an equivalent starting first choice No.8. Ulster will have to promote a second choice to replace him, so why shouldn't the other province also have to promote a second choice to replace their No.8?
I would dispute that Marshall has 4 other Centres ahead of him at Ulster. Firstly Olding isn't fit and no one knows how he will perform on his return.
Secondly it is arguable whether Marshall should be considered to be behind Cave or indeed whether he would be if he has an injury free run.

Just to be clear I'm not querying your information, I'm questioning the IRFU system. To me the "project player" system is flawed, because it promotes unproven foreign players ahead of unproven homegrown players. If someone has come over to qualify on residency they are given preferential selection into the provincial teams. They should be good enough to warrant selection on merit irrespective of whether they have an international cap or not. In fact I'd rather have a capped Test player to teach several academy guys than have one uncapped project who is still learning himself at the expense of several Academy players. Fair enough if someone like Ludik or White plays outside the 'project' label and incidentally qualifies, but the targeting of future Test players overseas is an indictment of the Academy system.

Obviously Ulster have Herbst in the system, but he is unavailable for Test selection so he should just be counted the same as any other NIQ player. After all SA could cap him now (like Aus did with Williamson) and he would be confirmed NIQ but still on Ulster's books. So the IRFU should simply have a limit of say 5 NIQ (capped and uncapped) and accept that the province should fill those spots if they want to with whomever they can afford in the interests of the team and the Academies.

Ulster not being able to attract players from south of the border isn't a chill factor with Belfast, because there aren't many movements happening in any direction. Ulster simply aren't producing enough quality players through the Academy, and that deficit has to be filled by recruiting. If the interfering hand of Big Brother reduces the NIQ quota further that simply damages the team.

For Payne we would take Conan, Ruddock or Murphy (given Heaslip and SOB are impossible)

For Marshall we would also taker Ryan or de Flier

Rough guess but fits what I have heard.
Those swaps would be good for us.

At Ulster I can confirm Cave, Olding, Payne and McCloskey are all above Marshall in the pecking order

The Great Aukster wrote:  To me the "project player" system is flawed, because it promotes unproven foreign players ahead of unproven homegrown players. If someone has come over to qualify on residency they are given preferential selection into the provincial teams. They should be good enough to warrant selection on merit irrespective of whether they have an international cap or not. In fact I'd rather have a capped Test player to teach several academy guys than have one uncapped project who is still learning himself at the expense of several Academy players. Fair enough if someone like Ludik or White plays outside the 'project' label and incidentally qualifies, but the targeting of future Test players overseas is an indictment of the Academy system.

Obviously Ulster have Herbst in the system, but he is unavailable for Test selection so he should just be counted the same as any other NIQ player. After all SA could cap him now (like Aus did with Williamson) and he would be confirmed NIQ but still on Ulster's books. So the IRFU should simply have a limit of say 5 NIQ (capped and uncapped) and accept that the province should fill those spots if they want to with whomever they can afford in the interests of the team and the Academies.

Ulster not being able to attract players from south of the border isn't a chill factor with Belfast, because there aren't many movements happening in any direction. Ulster simply aren't producing enough quality players through the Academy, and that deficit has to be filled by recruiting. If the interfering hand of Big Brother reduces the NIQ quota further that simply damages the team.

I find some of this muddled. You mentioned Project players having caps - if they had caps they would not be a project player and could hardly be described as unproven.
If Herbst got capped by SA he would out the door.

Allowing Provinces free reign to sign 5 NIQ players in any position would be a big mistake.
So 3 Provinces have 3 NIQ TH's for example and that returns us to the position, after Simon Best retired, of us all praying John Hayes was indestructible because the only alternative was that chocolate teapot Tony Buckley. We simply cant afford that situation to arise again

There are not movements elsewhere, I think there will be.

Who are the academy players who are being denied a chance by Project players at Ulster  ?

You are correct the Academy is not producing.
Our aged, club and schools records this year are W1 L10. At those levels we are the worst province in Ireland and given our aging side, at least 1 to 9, that is a huge worry.

geoff999rugby wrote:For Payne we would take Conan, Ruddock or Murphy (given Heaslip and SOB are impossible)

For Marshall we would also taker Ryan or de Flier

Rough guess but fits what I have heard.
Those swaps would be good for us.

At Ulster I can confirm Cave, Olding, Payne and McCloskey are all above Marshall in the pecking order

Geoff, I understand you are just passing on what you have heard.

I find it ridiculous that someone at Ulster is so desperate to sign a second string Leinster backrow that they are prepared to swap Ulster's best IQ back. The principle is that Ulster have Centres and Leinster have backrows therefore the players swapped should be of equal standing. Payne shouldn't be going anywhere unless it's for say SOB (which I agree isn't going to happen).
Marshall is 24 and has 6 caps for Ireland, Ruddock is 24 and has 5 caps for Ireland (Conan is 23 with 1 cap) - neither is a first choice starter: if such a thing existed that would be a fair swap.

Perhaps the swap deals aren't working because they are so heavily weighted in favour of Leinster?

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:  To me the "project player" system is flawed, because it promotes unproven foreign players ahead of unproven homegrown players. If someone has come over to qualify on residency they are given preferential selection into the provincial teams. They should be good enough to warrant selection on merit irrespective of whether they have an international cap or not. In fact I'd rather have a capped Test player to teach several academy guys than have one uncapped project who is still learning himself at the expense of several Academy players. Fair enough if someone like Ludik or White plays outside the 'project' label and incidentally qualifies, but the targeting of future Test players overseas is an indictment of the Academy system.

Obviously Ulster have Herbst in the system, but he is unavailable for Test selection so he should just be counted the same as any other NIQ player. After all SA could cap him now (like Aus did with Williamson) and he would be confirmed NIQ but still on Ulster's books. So the IRFU should simply have a limit of say 5 NIQ (capped and uncapped) and accept that the province should fill those spots if they want to with whomever they can afford in the interests of the team and the Academies.

Ulster not being able to attract players from south of the border isn't a chill factor with Belfast, because there aren't many movements happening in any direction. Ulster simply aren't producing enough quality players through the Academy, and that deficit has to be filled by recruiting. If the interfering hand of Big Brother reduces the NIQ quota further that simply damages the team.

I find some of this muddled. You mentioned Project players having caps - if they had caps they would not be a project player and could hardly be described as unproven.
If Herbst got capped by SA he would out the door.

Allowing Provinces free reign to sign 5 NIQ players in any position would be a big mistake.
So 3 Provinces have 3 NIQ TH's for example and that returns us to the position, after Simon Best retired, of us all praying John Hayes was indestructible because the only alternative was that chocolate teapot Tony Buckley. We simply cant afford that situation to arise again

There are not movements elsewhere, I think there will be.

Who are the academy players who are being denied a chance by Project players at Ulster  ?

You are correct the Academy is not producing.
Our aged, club and schools records this year are W1 L10. At those levels we are the worst province in Ireland and given our aging side, at least 1 to 9, that is a huge worry.

Apologies for my lack of clarity.

I can't find where I have said project players are capped but I think I may have confused you when I say "They should be good enough to warrant selection on merit irrespective of whether they have an international cap or not."
What I mean is that a NIQ player should be good enough to start for the first team on merit. If they have been capped they should still be good enough to be starters - I don't see the point in having second string NIQs at all. Similarly if a NIQ player hasn't been capped they should still be good enough to start for the first team. In other words it shouldn't matter one way or another the Test status of an NIQ player they should be good enough to start for Ulster. The trouble is that uncapped foreign players are unproven and therefore much more of a risk as to how they will develop.

Apart from the IRFU rules I don't see why Herbst should be out the door (or Williamson for that matter at Leinster). Being capped shows that he is Test class standard and will become even better through exposure to Test level. Why should Ulster develop him and then lose him?

I'm not advocating free reign to sign anyone, which is why I qualified the statement that they have to be in the interests of the team and Academies. All NIQ signings have to be sanctioned by the IRFU and they hold the purse strings, and it is in the provinces interests first and foremost to sign local players who are bought into the provincial culture. The problem is that if part of the team isn't of a sufficient standard the whole team suffers and that's where the NIQs come in. If the Academies are only producing Tony Buckleys it is fatuous to suggest that the provinces should be forced to play them in the hope that they someday magically turn into John Hayes - it's never going to happen. It's far more likely that a BJ Botha will bring his understudies on in terms of development and at the same time ensuring the team is of a competitive standard.

It's precisely because of the Provincial age grade stats that Ulster need imported wisdom as those teams tend to get beaten up front by the other provinces. At the elite level guys like O'Connor, Tuohy and Henderson have all benefited by learning from Muller. Would any developing Ulster backrowers learn more from say David Pocock or Rhys Ruddock?

Well, if they are weighted heavily in favour of Leinster then it is even more telling that we can't turn the heads of even their squad players despite Leinster themselves presumably knowing a good deal when they see one. That said, I don't think Leinster would be in a mad rush to sign Marshall. Noel Reid may have a lower potential ceiling than LM but unless we Marshall can turn his form around he will probably be coached into being a better player. If Leinster don't really need anyone we've got (but could use Payne) whilst we are desperate for any back row prospect then of course we're over a barrel in terms of negotiating.

It's hard to know what to think about Luke Marshall. When he came through I thought he had it all- the skills, the physical attributes, the swaggering confidence- but he's had a very rough few years in terms of his rugby life and now he looks like that confidence has been drained out of him. He's facing huge competition so it's not like he can be guaranteed time to play himself back into form once the internationals come back.

I feel sorry for the guy. He's been through a lot of tough times in his rugby career.

Thanks for contribution guys - some good points to mull over.

Too busy now but I will post again in the next few days.

It is interesting discussions like this that make this place worth posting

Sorry, bit late to this, but without reading the last three posts I felt I had to say .... surely the point of player movements would be to move second string players at one team to another team where they could be first choice.

Would it really help Ireland... or the teams if a squad player getting 5 starts a year moved club in order to get 8 or 9 start per year.

If a player has a chance of challenging but is stuck behind the international starter - that t me is the only logical case - move that player who is being stifled to another club where he can compete on a similar standing for the international position.

An examples for me would be Gilroy being the starting winger at Connacht. Will never happen in most cases. But the moving of a backup in one club to a higher pecking order backup in another club is pointless in my mind.

If anything if Henderson is moving to a central contract next year and the IRFU are wanting him playing in the second row, Ulsters back row is being weakened by the IRFUs need. Surely an argument can be made they owe us a back row

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:  To me the "project player" system is flawed, because it promotes unproven foreign players ahead of unproven homegrown players. If someone has come over to qualify on residency they are given preferential selection into the provincial teams. They should be good enough to warrant selection on merit irrespective of whether they have an international cap or not. In fact I'd rather have a capped Test player to teach several academy guys than have one uncapped project who is still learning himself at the expense of several Academy players. Fair enough if someone like Ludik or White plays outside the 'project' label and incidentally qualifies, but the targeting of future Test players overseas is an indictment of the Academy system.

Obviously Ulster have Herbst in the system, but he is unavailable for Test selection so he should just be counted the same as any other NIQ player. After all SA could cap him now (like Aus did with Williamson) and he would be confirmed NIQ but still on Ulster's books. So the IRFU should simply have a limit of say 5 NIQ (capped and uncapped) and accept that the province should fill those spots if they want to with whomever they can afford in the interests of the team and the Academies.

Ulster not being able to attract players from south of the border isn't a chill factor with Belfast, because there aren't many movements happening in any direction. Ulster simply aren't producing enough quality players through the Academy, and that deficit has to be filled by recruiting. If the interfering hand of Big Brother reduces the NIQ quota further that simply damages the team.

I find some of this muddled. You mentioned Project players having caps - if they had caps they would not be a project player and could hardly be described as unproven.
If Herbst got capped by SA he would out the door.

Allowing Provinces free reign to sign 5 NIQ players in any position would be a big mistake.
So 3 Provinces have 3 NIQ TH's for example and that returns us to the position, after Simon Best retired, of us all praying John Hayes was indestructible because the only alternative was that chocolate teapot Tony Buckley. We simply cant afford that situation to arise again

There are not movements elsewhere, I think there will be.

Who are the academy players who are being denied a chance by Project players at Ulster  ?

You are correct the Academy is not producing.
Our aged, club and schools records this year are W1 L10. At those levels we are the worst province in Ireland and given our aging side, at least 1 to 9, that is a huge worry.

Is that true? I know its very unlikely that a project player would be on their national teams radar but hypothetically if they get capped is the contract void?

Apart from the standard of player how is that any different to the French teams asking players to retire internationally before giving them contracts?

marty2086 wrote:If anything if Henderson is moving to a central contract next year and the IRFU are wanting him playing in the second row, Ulsters back row is being weakened by the IRFUs need. Surely an argument can be made they owe us a back row

That is why we will, probably, be allowed 2 players in the backrow next year - 1 marquee, 1 Project

To be honest it is our fault - how many quality backrowers have come through the Ulster ranks who are under 29/30.
If you count Henderson as a Lock in my opinion it is a number less than 1 - that is absolutely pathetic

Golden it is my understanding it is true.

Ulster cannot stop him playing for SA, and I suspect they would have to pay up his contract, but he would still be told to leave

The thing is I would be fine with Payne being swapped for Conan or Ruddock and I suspect that is where I differ from some here.

Overall I think we would be a stronger team.
We don't need Payne as a 15 with Piatau coming and at 12.13 we have plenty of talent as mentioned
It is not about where the players stand in the pecking order of their current teams it is about their worth to the new team
Just imagine Ruddock, Vermulen/Kaino/Reid (no I have no insight as to the marquee signing (yet!)), Henry

That's a backline to get excited about - Henderson and Tuohy in the 2nd row is not too shabby either.

The fact is we can afford to lose a centre and we are desperate for backrowers.

We are in a whole because our Academy and aged rugby are not fit for purpose.

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If anything if Henderson is moving to a central contract next year and the IRFU are wanting him playing in the second row, Ulsters back row is being weakened by the IRFUs need. Surely an argument can be made they owe us a back row

That is why we will, probably, be allowed 2 players in the backrow next year - 1 marquee, 1 Project

To be honest it is our fault - how many quality backrowers have come through the Ulster ranks who are under 29/30.
If you count Henderson as a Lock in my opinion it is a number less than 1 - that is absolutely pathetic

To be fair there were two in Pollock and Ferris but injury robbed us there

As for Luke Marshall he was the only kid on the block as D'arcy neared retirement.

The reality is Henshaw, McCloskey and Olding have all left him trailing in their wake and McSharry and Reid are on a par.
If I were him I'd go to England and rebuild his career

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If anything if Henderson is moving to a central contract next year and the IRFU are wanting him playing in the second row, Ulsters back row is being weakened by the IRFUs need. Surely an argument can be made they owe us a back row

That is why we will, probably, be allowed 2 players in the backrow next year - 1 marquee, 1 Project

To be honest it is our fault - how many quality backrowers have come through the Ulster ranks who are under 29/30.
If you count Henderson as a Lock in my opinion it is a number less than 1 - that is absolutely pathetic

To be fair there were two in Pollock and Ferris but injury robbed us there

David Pollock fair enough but even he is 28 1/2 now.
Stephen Ferris is over 30 now.

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If anything if Henderson is moving to a central contract next year and the IRFU are wanting him playing in the second row, Ulsters back row is being weakened by the IRFUs need. Surely an argument can be made they owe us a back row

That is why we will, probably, be allowed 2 players in the backrow next year - 1 marquee, 1 Project

To be honest it is our fault - how many quality backrowers have come through the Ulster ranks who are under 29/30.
If you count Henderson as a Lock in my opinion it is a number less than 1 - that is absolutely pathetic

To be fair there were two in Pollock and Ferris but injury robbed us there

David Pollock fair enough but even he is 28 1/2 now.
Stephen Ferris is over 30 now.

I thought Ferris was 28

Even if both were that bit younger its still not enough to sustain and worse when you compare to Leinster and even Munster

Jared Payne has fractured his foot, out of the rest of the world cup.

neilthom7 wrote:Jared Payne has fractured his foot, out of the rest of the world cup.  

People talking Trimble or Gilroy going but would Joe go for McCloskey?

No point in introducing a player for their first cap starting from the World Cup quarter-finals on. Imagine catching up with months of planning for that game in a week... it will be Trimble or McFadden.

It wont be McCloskey but it should be - big mistake not involving him in the summer.

The backs on standby are Boss, Trimble and Jones.
It will be Trimble.

Payne will not play this side of the 6N.
He trained on the foot before the fracture was diagnosed  
Given the past incompetence with Ferris and Trimble what the hell goes on in the Irish medical set up - some down right bad decisions made year on year

geoff999rugby wrote:Golden it is my understanding it is true.

Ulster cannot stop him playing for SA, and I suspect they would have to pay up his contract, but he would still be told to leave

Can't see how SA would pay his contract - a Union wouldn't have to buy out a club contract to cap their own player. However there is probably a way to terminate the contract so Ulster would still lose the player.

This highlights the problem with the 'Project Player' system. If Herbst got capped that shows he's good enough in terms of ability for RSA but not for Ulster because he would have to leave - if he doesn't get capped for either RSA or eventually Ireland, that shows he's not good enough for Test rugby but is allowed to stay for Ulster!
Thus far Payne is the only project player to have commanded a starting Test spot and there has been shall we say some debate about that! Thus far the best of the rest are probably Strauss and White but they are really only bit part players for Ireland. Considering the 'programme' dates back to Stephen Knoop coming over in 2004 that represents a very poor return on investment. Not only have players like Jeremy Manning blocked the development of IQ players and been unselectable for three years, they also have proved to be not good enough to get capped at the end of it all. The provinces get far better value from their proven NIQ signings.

I can understand Ulster being forced by the IRFU to let Herbst go if he were capped, because the current project player system is ridiculous, but it is still incredible that Ulster should be forced to let a proven player go who is currently performing, and then have to replace him with another who is also NIQ inexperienced AND unproven.

The Great Aukster wrote:Can't see how SA would pay his contract - a Union wouldn't have to buy out a club contract to cap their own player. However there is probably a way to terminate the contract so Ulster would still lose the player.

I don't think geoff meant that SA would have to pay up his contract, I believe he meant Ulster would have to since they are the ones that would be releasing him

You would think though that provisions would be included in such contracts to include penalties etc should he decide to play for SA

Aukster, signing any player is a risk. If Herbst or anyone else isnt good enough he won't last, though saying that he doesn't seem to be at his best so far this season but guys like Quinn Roux have been shown up. Ireland doesn't have a huge population and rugby has to compete with different sports to attract and retain players, this and other shortfalls in development in some areas require solutions to plug gaps.

Sorry - bad grammar Ulster would have to pay his contract not SA - thanks Marty.
If Ulster wanted to keep him he would have to take up one of the 4, soon to be 3, NIQ slots

Herbst is at Ulster because Ulster made the decision that they did not have a TH good enough to take Afoas place in the team.
If Ulster decide he is not good enough they simply don't give him another contract.

It is a common misconception that Project players are signed to strengthen the national team, that simply isn't true, they are signings made by the provinces to strengthen their own teams.
They may ultimately make the grade but that is a bonus.
Diack was signed because Ulster lacked sufficient quality in their academy in the backrow (as they still do). Ireland certainly didn't require him as backrower
Payne was signed because Ulster decided D'Arcy was not a good enough replacement for Cunningham.
He played so well at 15 that Ireland decided to take a look at him as a possible BOD replacement but that had nothing to do with his original signing


If the players are not doing a good job for the Provinces, that is the Provinces fault for making poor signing choices.
Nobody made Munster signing Manning, that was their choice.
Projects are Province driven not National driven.

Control over player recruitment remains, almost exclusively, at the Provincial level.

So how about John Hardie to Ulster, then?

Would give Henry some cracking competition. And even a break occasionally.

I see our A team just got hammered by Connachts at home yesterday despite the presence of a sizeable number of first-team players. Pretty worrying lack of depth.

George Carlin wrote:So how about John Hardie to Ulster, then?

Would give Henry some cracking competition. And even a break occasionally.

Would be nice if we could fit him in, but if we only have 1 NIQ spot in the back row 7 is where we have the most depth (even though it's not much) whilst at 6/8 we are badly exposed. So for that reason it would be a case of signing a great player as opposed to a player we really need.

Think the current system is too rigid. It's not like Sean Reidy, Willie Faloon, Clive Ross or the rapidly ageing Roger Wilson are going to make it to international standard so long as we limit their competition in the back row. NIQ recruitment policy should be determined on a case by case basis and not just be a prescribed number you must adhere to.

Notch wrote:I see our A team just got hammered by Connachts at home yesterday despite the presence of a sizeable number of first-team players. Pretty worrying lack of depth.

That makes W1 L11 this year
for our team below the 1st XV - worrying times

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:So how about John Hardie to Ulster, then?

Would give Henry some cracking competition. And even a break occasionally.

Would be nice if we could fit him in, but if we only have 1 NIQ spot in the back row 7 is where we have the most depth (even though it's not much) whilst at 6/8 we are badly exposed. So for that reason it would be a case of signing a great player as opposed to a player we really need.

Think the current system is too rigid. It's not like Sean Reidy, Willie Faloon, Clive Ross or the rapidly ageing Roger Wilson are going to make it to international standard so long as we limit their competition in the back row. NIQ recruitment policy should be determined on a case by case basis and not just be a prescribed number you must adhere to.

Ulster will sign 1 marquee backrower this coming summer and another who may well be NIQ but a Project - neither will be a 7 (although one could be a Saffer 6/7)

Sean Reidy, Willie Faloon, Clive Ross and Roger Wilson have precisely zero caps to look forward to, regardless of the competition they face, so not sure of the point being made.
The first 3 simply are not good enough and Wilson is past his best.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Notch wrote:I see our A team just got hammered by Connachts at home yesterday despite the presence of a sizeable number of first-team players. Pretty worrying lack of depth.

That makes W1 L11 this year
for our team below the 1st XV - worrying times

When you look at the Ulster team, you have to ask is it the players or the coaches?

And whats happened to Ruaidhri Murphy, he came in as a decent player now can't even get a start for a poorly performing A team

Murphy is very much seen as 3rd choice LH - way behind Black and Warwick

The reason he didn't start was because Black needed the game time

geoff999rugby wrote:Sean Reidy, Willie Faloon, Clive Ross and Roger Wilson have precisely zero caps to look forward to, regardless of the competition they face, so not sure of the point being made.
The first 3 simply are not good enough and Wilson is past his best.

Well thats exactly the point being made. The IRFU preventing us from signing more than one NIQ back rower could be justified if it benefits the national team, but forcing us to rely on Irish-qualified journeymen will not do that. Making us pick Irish-qualified players who are not and will never be good enough instead of just being allowed to sign another NIQ player in that area will not magically bring those Irish-qualified players up to test standard.

So right now neither Ulster nor Ireland are benefiting from the NIQ strategy in this back row area. On the whole it's a policy which sometimes limits competitiveness at provincial level but does not always boost Irish competitiveness at test level. We shouldn't have such a rigid approach. We shouldn't have a one-size fits all approach for all the major teams. NIQ rules need to be more flexible and more responsive to the circumstances of each individual province.

That takes away the incentive for the Province to produce quality IQ players.

We could have gone after O'Connor and Fitzgerald who went to Leicester - both IQ and streets ahead of Browne, Reidy, Ross etc.
Why didn't we - money isn't the problem.
Our Academy continues to be pathetic.

We should not be bailed out because a poor academy and poor choices in player recruitment.

geoff999rugby wrote:That takes away the incentive for the Province to produce quality IQ players.

We could have gone after O'Connor and Fitzgerald who went to Leicester  - both IQ and streets ahead of Browne, Reidy, Ross etc.
Why didn't we - money isn't the problem.
Our Academy continues to be pathetic.

We should not be bailed out because a poor academy and poor choices in player recruitment.

I'm not saying make it a free for all in terms of recruitment, I'm saying have it so provinces can make their case as far as what they need and then the IRFU can judge the benefit or damage done by signing that player and say yes or no. If it's a case that the work isn't being done to bring on the grassroots structures that can be taken into account in the decision. But if the work to produce homegrown players is happening and not bearing fruit in a certain position right away, there is really nothing being lost by signing an additional non-Irish player to raise the standards of the team on the whole.

That is where we disagree

geoff999rugby wrote:Murphy is very much seen as 3rd choice LH - way behind Black and Warwick

The reason he didn't start was because Black needed the game time

He came in from the Brumbies though as a good scrummager and a decent ball carrier now he seems to went a long way backwards

Notch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:That takes away the incentive for the Province to produce quality IQ players.

We could have gone after O'Connor and Fitzgerald who went to Leicester  - both IQ and streets ahead of Browne, Reidy, Ross etc.
Why didn't we - money isn't the problem.
Our Academy continues to be pathetic.

We should not be bailed out because a poor academy and poor choices in player recruitment.

I'm not saying make it a free for all in terms of recruitment, I'm saying have it so provinces can make their case as far as what they need and then the IRFU can judge the benefit or damage done by signing that player and say yes or no. If it's a case that the work isn't being done to bring on the grassroots structures that can be taken into account in the decision. But if the work to produce homegrown players is happening and not bearing fruit in a certain position right away, there is really nothing being lost by signing an additional non-Irish player to raise the standards of the team on the whole.

Notch there may be work being done but theres no sign of it producing the goods, of the backrowers coming out of Ulster at the minute theres no sign of them being ready to step up and have looked well short of being ready whereas when you see the likes of Leinster bringing through their young backrows they look ready

So what are the chances of us losing Angry Andrew Trimble to the RWC squad? Is he going to get the call?

Trimble and Tuohy are 2 of the 8 on standby.

Likely to lose both I would have thought

geoff999rugby wrote:Trimble and Tuohy are 2 of the 8 on standby.

Likely to lose both I would have thought

Can't they at least send Cave back since there doesn't seem to be any intention of playing him regardless of how many times Earls drops the ball

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/14141.php#.Vh5YVWddGM9

Great news Big fan of Gilroy.

Gilroy is one of the best 3 wingers in the league, so hopefully he pocketed a bit of cash to reflect his status. Only 24, god bless his socks. My haircut is older than that.

Says a lot about our back three options he can't get into the Ireland squad. He's been playing really well and I hope he gets his reward for it soon.

The Treviso defence here may be absolutely pants, but you could just watch him run with the ball all day...

George Carlin wrote:Gilroy is one of the best 3 wingers in the league, so hopefully he pocketed a bit of cash to reflect his status. Only 24, god bless his socks. My haircut is older than that.

I know what you mean - Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Murphy is very much seen as 3rd choice LH - way behind Black and Warwick

The reason he didn't start was because Black needed the game time

He came in from the Brumbies though as a good scrummager and a decent ball carrier now he seems to went a long way backwards

More than just that - there are a few articles on the interWeb where Murphy talks at length about who he was/should have been/wanted to be eligible to play international rugby for. It appears he had aspirations to wear yellow. And it looks as though he wouldn't even be of the standard for a Romania yellow jersey!

I feel bad about that... I'm not slagging the guy. I guess what I'm saying is it just doesn't add up. Brumbies are a decent side. How could he be so far off the mark. Can't help but feel he's been badly managed.