Ulster 2015/2016

First topic message reminder :

Thought i would give ol' GC a helping hand and try and get Ulster types looking inward at what has been a tricky season and looking forward to next season and how we should improve. Dont have time to put down all my own theories but will do so later. This thread is a matawalu free zone btw!

Good stuff, he'll be doing plenty of tackling at Ulster by the looks of things.

The Indo are reporting that Ulster are one of the teams in for Ian Nagle for next season as he's eyeing up a return to the professional ranks once he's finished his MBA at Cambridge, though Leinster and Munster are in for him too with Worcester and LI

Not good news. I did think Henderson and Nelson might be out for a long period, but Tuohy is out as well. Hopefully Cave will be back in a few weeks:


Ulster's 14-7 GUINNESS PRO12 win over Edinburgh at Kingspan Stadium on Friday night came at a cost, with Dan Tuohy, Iain Henderson, Peter Nelson and Darren Cave all picking up injuries.

Dan Tuohy fractured his right ankle and suffered ligament damage. He will be reviewed by a surgeon tomorrow to ascertain whether surgery is required. The injury will rule the Ireland lock out for at least two months.

Peter Nelson dislocated his left midfoot. It was relocated in the medical room at Kingspan Stadium and he was admitted into the Ulster Independent Clinic overnight on Friday. He is now at home and will have scheduled surgery when the swelling subsides. This is unfortunately a season-ending injury for the versatile young back.

Iain Henderson suffered a significant hamstring tear (left leg). He will be reviewed by a surgeon and his ongoing management and prognosis will be clearer after this consultation has taken place.

Fellow Ireland international Darren Cave suffered an AC joint (right shoulder) injury. His recovery will be managed on an ongoing basis but he will be ruled out for a minimum of two games.

Meanwhile, Roger Wilson had a back spasm on Friday and was withdrawn from the matchday squad as a result. The injury has settled well and he is expected to be available for selection for the European Champions Cup round 3 match against Toulouse this Friday.



Just as well O'Connor got some game time.....

Another huge blow when you add it to injuries we already got and thats a very good basis of a squad out. Over the last few years we have had so many injuries, are we just unlucky or is it something else?

This season has been so unsettled with the RWC, our coaching reshuffling and player injuries. If we can tread water and keep ourselves within a shout of a Euro place it'll do nicely. A playoff place would be a huge ask and looking more and more unlikely I feel.

I disagree Pete. Humphreys jumped ship because he got an offer he couldn't refuse - there is no cap on coaches. If Ulster consolidate and start to progress then it is just as likely that they lose key staff to big money offers overseas. That is the difference between the AP and the Pro12 - Ulster might be able to offer competitive packages to players but that is at the expense of the coaching contracts. There is a reason why Ulster (and Ireland in general) have gone for homegrown and lesser known names - they're cheaper!

So Ulster can't expect things to get much more settled and are likely to be in some degree of flux every season.

I do hope not. A constant state of flux is not conducive to a successful side. We need a well settled squad with a coaching team that has bedded in well and have every player singing of the same hymn sheet. Constant change is something we could well do without but I do agree that to some extent that's how Ulster rugby will be.

It's a shame we couldn't have tempted the likes of McCall to come home to settle. How long's he been with Saracens now?

Why would McCall take a massive pay cut while he's still 'successful' at Saracens?

I mean the 'likes' of McCall. A top coach with a connection to this little island who would come here and spend many years working at the club.

McCall, Humph, O'Shea way outside the pay scale.
Jeremy Davidson probably still outside the pay scale and has a somewhat chequered...

Eddie O'Sullivan was outside the pay scale but maybe that has changed?

Then there's Michael Bradley... oh and Declan Kidney... and of course Brian McLaughlin...

Sorry Pete, but I'm struggling to identify who you mean by 'the likes of McCall'?


I'd far rather a coach did well and left than have a mediocre coach who stayed his whole career. Let's hope Kiss attracts the attention of Toulon, because that will have meant he's done well.

Pete, Ulster appointed a school teacher in McLaughlin and got to the HC final, they appointed Anscombe who was considered one of the best young coaches around and got to the Pro12 final.

Leinster appointed an Aussie provincial coach who won them the HC, they followed that up with an Asst Coach who's only head coach jobs were in schools or the NPC and he built one of the most dominant teams in the professional era. They then appointed a head coach in MOC who didn't work out as well in the eyes of some

Sometimes big names will work, sometimes a nobody will work

Well I think we made a mistake letting Anscombe go.... I know I know, players didn't like him, he had his favourites and wasn't a nice fellow etc. etc. but I can only see what is obvious that the team has deteriorated, particularly in terms of attacking play since he left.

If he had to go he had to go but we are paying the price for how it was managed and the failure to line up a quality replacement before letting him go.

Anyway that's water under the bridge so lets see what Kiss can do. Would be great to see Muller back as a coach someday.

100% Rodders, and I've said it many times before. Anscombe was not doing badly at all and deserved more time. Especially since the alternative solution was idiotic and disastrous for a professional club.

rodders wrote:Well I think we made a mistake letting Anscombe go.... I know I know, players didn't like him, he had his favourites and wasn't a nice fellow etc. etc. but I can only see what is obvious that the team has deteriorated, particularly in terms of attacking play since he left.

If he had to go he had to go but we are paying the price for how it was managed and the failure to line up a quality replacement before letting him go.

Anyway that's water under the bridge so lets see what Kiss can do. Would be great to see Muller back as a coach someday.

All the anectdotal evidence suggested that Ulster were doing well despite Anscombe rather than because of him, (as related by Muller). Humphreys and MA were a double act, good cop/bad cop etc. but operated as a unit. It was Humphreys leaving that precipitated the coaching crisis, and Anscombe had been reputedly looking at 'better' jobs for some time previous.

Ulster are paying the price for Humphreys leaving with no notice, it's hard to see how that could have been managed any differently.

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Well I think we made a mistake letting Anscombe go.... I know I know, players didn't like him, he had his favourites and wasn't a nice fellow etc. etc. but I can only see what is obvious that the team has deteriorated, particularly in terms of attacking play since he left.

If he had to go he had to go but we are paying the price for how it was managed and the failure to line up a quality replacement before letting him go.

Anyway that's water under the bridge so lets see what Kiss can do. Would be great to see Muller back as a coach someday.

All the anectdotal evidence suggested that Ulster were doing well despite Anscombe rather than because of him, (as related by Muller). Humphreys and MA were a double act, good cop/bad cop etc. but operated as a unit. It was Humphreys leaving that precipitated the coaching crisis, and Anscombe had been reputedly looking at 'better' jobs for some time previous.

Ulster are paying the price for Humphreys leaving with no notice, it's hard to see how that could have been managed any differently.

With respect Aukster we didn't see how Anscombe would have managed sans Humphreys because he wasn't given the chance.

Only then could we say, anecdotally, what could be attributed to him versus Humph when they operated together.

What I would say with confidence is that there was no basis with which to argue that either Doak or Kiss were better equipped or experienced based on their track records to take the reigns at Ulster, once Humph jumped ship, than Anscombe.

Now that things have begun to settle - I'd like to come back to a point that has been raised many times over the past months - that Ulster 'just don't have the players'.

Does tonight disprove that? Or would we still argue that too many of these players only have the odd somehow lucky game where they look very good, but will revert back to their status of solid but average?

I have always been a firm believer in coaching, strategy and morale being a considerable factor, and perhaps even an over-riding factor of player ability.

We see example of it all the time - top players have 'dry spells', top clubs going through 'rebuilding phases'.

I suggest that the same potential is always there for every collection of players, but there are other factors at play dictating whether or not that potential is reached.

I really hope this is the beginning of something and not just a fluke. If those players can play like that consistantly, with players like Tuohy, Henderson, Bowe, Olding, Cave, Payne to come back, doing likewise, we can soon be a force again.

And sure, we will hardly turn away Piutau, and our (allegedly)worldclass backrower - but what we should really be doing is celebrating the performance of our fringe IQ players, and urging them on to produce more of the same!

McCall, Herring, O'Connor, Diack, Wilson, Jackson, McCloskey, L Marshall, Gilroy - more of the same please - well done - you were not substandard - you are not substandard - long may that continue

Les Kiss - if this is your doing -  we very much appreciate it!

I think the main worry is that over the next few seasons a lot of our key players are going to be rather old and we don't have a huge amount of talent coming up through the academy system to replace them. Especially in the pack, which is quite alarming. We do have the players now (ignoring our large injury list) but in a few years that may be different.

Of course it must be emphasised that there is a large degree of making the most of what you have. Yesterday proved that. On paper that scoreline should have been inverted.

With all thats happened this weekend I should pop a wee note of congrats to the Ravens who beat Scarlets yesterday in B and I cup. 27-19

Well well well, who saw that coming. Toulouse were very poor but made to look so. Fantastic performance across the park and Pienaar back to his best.

Luke Marshall in electric form for the second week in a row and forming a very exciting partnership with McCloskey.

I was so pleased for Luke Marshall. He's been going through a torrid time and he's come out of it all the stronger by Fridays' evidence. Everyone that took to the pitch deserves a huge pat on the back. Same again this weekend lads

I'm delighted with Marshall's return to form. Last season he said that he was going to work on those skills that he had before he was used as a bosh merchant (I paraphrase slightly), and he seems to have done that, and then some. Jackson said in an interview that Marshall also took the pressure of him in phase play. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but Marshall and McCloskey is an exciting partnership...

Picamoles and Maka out of the return game, according to Toulouse fans.

Munchkin wrote:Picamoles and Maka out of the return game, according to Toulouse fans.

Hopefully Flood is fit

Seems to be

Lets hope he continues his fine form on Sunday then

Indeed. He was one of our best players

The weather is in our favour for the game. No rain and a light wind.

Great to see Marshall performing well at 13, thought his chances behind Olding and McCloskey at 12 might be limited after all the concussions and injuries, happy for him to get a run of games. He is still young so could reallly come into his own there.

Munchkin wrote:I'm delighted with Marshall's return to form. Last season he said that he was going to work on those skills that he had before he was used as a bosh merchant (I paraphrase slightly), and he seems to have done that, and then some. Jackson said in an interview that Marshall also took the pressure of him in phase play. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but Marshall and McCloskey is an exciting partnership...

I think Luke Marshall actually kicked the ball more often than Paddy Jackson in open play! Marshall has a great boot, gets a lot of range on his clearing kicks and with Marshall outside him and Pienaar inside him Jackson's job is made a lot easier. Allows him to focus on directing the back line and bringing players into space, which he was excellent at- i mean really back to his best, the spark has been lacking a bit but it was back on Friday.

Ulster basically attacked them from everywhere though, which is why Jackson didn't often kick the ball... and why not when the Ulster's intensity left them struggling to organise their defence quickly enough? Seen a lot of calls of 'Jackson for Ireland!' when we look at his wonderful running and passing game but we need to see him attacking against a more organised midfield defence- against a team that takes away his options, pressurises him and forces him to vary his game more. For the Ireland coaches, Saracens away will be a good yardstick of his progress.

I was surprised at how much fitter Ulster looked than Toulouse. I think Ulster are a very fit team and have a good strength and conditioning staff but the difference between Toulouse and Saracens was like night and day.

Well there was a couple of things on BTs analysis yesterday - early on Ulster deliberately moved Toulouse from touchline to touchline early on for 29 phases and the tries came not long after.

Also Pienar taking quick taps is very unusual and Toulouse were not expecting it, hence early on they just turned their backs expecting the kick.

Obviously the plan was to tire Toulouse out when they were expecting us to kick. It was very different to how we have have been playing recently so Kiss has to take a lot of credit.

I just noticed McCloskey made the planet rugby team of the week. I know it's just planet rugby etc but it's still nice to see him being named amongst those players.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm delighted with Marshall's return to form. Last season he said that he was going to work on those skills that he had before he was used as a bosh merchant (I paraphrase slightly), and he seems to have done that, and then some. Jackson said in an interview that Marshall also took the pressure of him in phase play. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but Marshall and McCloskey is an exciting partnership...

I think Luke Marshall actually kicked the ball more often than Paddy Jackson in open play! Marshall has a great boot, gets a lot of range on his clearing kicks and with Marshall outside him and Pienaar inside him Jackson's job is made a lot easier. Allows him to focus on directing the back line and bringing players into space, which he was excellent at- i mean really back to his best, the spark has been lacking a bit but it was back on Friday.

Ulster basically attacked them from everywhere though, which is why Jackson didn't often kick the ball... and why not when the Ulster's intensity left them struggling to organise their defence quickly enough? Seen a lot of calls of 'Jackson for Ireland!' when we look at his wonderful running and passing game but we need to see him attacking against a more organised midfield defence- against a team that takes away his options, pressurises him and forces him to vary his game more. For the Ireland coaches, Saracens away will be a good yardstick of his progress.

I was surprised at how much fitter Ulster looked than Toulouse. I think Ulster are a very fit team and have a good strength and conditioning staff but the difference between Toulouse and Saracens was like night and day.

With Marshall's drop in form over the last couple of seasons, I think many forgot how talented a player he really is. Toulouse will be more prepared to deal with the two centres, and the half-backs, so it will be very interesting to see how Marshall copes with whatever it is they have planned.

Great to see Jackson step up and play as we know he can. I don't know why he was standing so deep in the other games, confidence or coached?, but from what Les Kiss has said, we can largely thank Pienaar for Jacksons return to form, and the performances of Marshall and McCloskey.
I can understand the calls of Jackson to Ireland. Sexton's game is well below what he is capable, and Jackson is much better at managing games than Madigan. Sextons a worry. There is something wrong with him, and I can only hope it's not the result of so many concussions. Personally, I think he should be given a long rest and given all the help necessary to get him fit and firing again. As good as Jackson is, he is still not up there with Sexton at his best. Not yet.

Ulster are a fit side, Toulouse not so much(I don't think they come close to Sarries level of fitness either). Ulster planned to tire out the Toulouse forwards, and the plan worked a treat. Jackson commented on how a few of their forwards were blowing by half-time. Job done Difficult to see how Toulouse will counter that, assuming Ulster sticks to the same game plan, but I can envisage the half backs and centres being targeted for a bit of special treatment. If we are still in the game after 40 minutes, I think we will win it. If we fall short of a win, but still put in a good away performance, I won't be too disappointed.

I think Luke Marshall has always had the ability. His main problem has been a lack of confidence and consistency. I have always been a big fan, but unfortunately I worry that he may suffer from the same problems as Keith Earls. He can panic a bit when under pressure.

I sincerely hope he can grow in confidence and have a great season, and push for the Irish jersey once again.

I'm not sure about that, Rory. Marshall was very young coming into the senior side, and it was always going to take time to mature as a professional player. For the most part, I think he played very well in most games, including his game with Ireland, when he first started beside BOD. It seemed to be going really well for him up until concussions became an issue. I think it was then that you could tell it was having a very negative impact on his game. That and a certain media hack telling the public that his game was basically over, as well as the fact that his skills were not being utilised in his being used as a bosh merchant (some coaches need a kick in the @rse) His confidence was very low, as you would expect, but Marshall was determined to regain his past form, work on his skills and challenge for the shirt. Judging by his last two games it appears that he may well have achieved those goals, but I agree that consistency is key.

Considering the trials he's been through, it would be a great achievement on his part if he makes it into an Irish jersey again. I know I'm biased when it comes to Marshall, but I really hope he makes it.

Can somebody remind me who it is we are sending Payne to , and which IQ backrower we are getting in return?

Also, anyone have any firm idea of how long till Olding is due back?

17weeks ago - https://www.instagram.com/p/6Va2I0SQzE/?taken-by=kevgeary
10weeks ago - https://www.instagram.com/p/8dzlTpSQ3k/?taken-by=kevgeary

Pete330v2 wrote:I just noticed McCloskey made the planet rugby team of the week. I know it's just planet rugby etc but it's still nice to see him being named amongst those players.

McCloskey and Marshall were the centres in the Midi Olympique team of the week.

Is Geoff around? Would love some insider info on what difference Kiss is making.

clivemcl wrote:Can somebody remind me who it is we are sending Payne to , and which IQ backrower we are getting in return?

Also, anyone have any firm idea of how long till Olding is due back?

17weeks ago - https://www.instagram.com/p/6Va2I0SQzE/?taken-by=kevgeary
10weeks ago - https://www.instagram.com/p/8dzlTpSQ3k/?taken-by=kevgeary

Think he's due back on the 8th of next month Clive, although with the game now against Oyonnax I think it might be the week after.

Munchkin wrote:I'm not sure about that, Rory. Marshall was very young coming into the senior side, and it was always going to take time to mature as a professional player. For the most part, I think he played very well in most games, including his game with Ireland, when he first started beside BOD. It seemed to be going really well for him up until concussions became an issue. I think it was then that you could tell it was having a very negative impact on his game. That and a certain media hack telling the public that his game was basically over, as well as the fact that his skills were not being utilised in his being used as a bosh merchant (some coaches need a kick in the @rse) His confidence was very low, as you would expect, but Marshall was determined to regain his past form, work on his skills and challenge for the shirt. Judging by his last two games it appears that he may well have achieved those goals, but I agree that consistency is key.

Considering the trials he's been through, it would be a great achievement on his part if he makes it into an Irish jersey again. I know I'm biased when it comes to Marshall, but I really hope he makes it.

I certainly hope you are right. Most people on here know I have always been a big fan of the guy and want to see him fulfil his huge potential. His Irish debut was still one of the best in recent years. He does have his work cut out for him though, there is no doubt he is better at 12 than he is at 13 and centre is probably the most competitive position at Ulster.

Yes, it's a hugely competitive position now, and it won't be easy getting the edge. Not with McCloskey there. My thinking is that he might make it as an outside centre with Ulster. I know he is presently a better 12, but with a run of games at 13? He has Payne and Cave ahead of him, although Cave is presently a 12, but if we had to lose one of those players, I wouldn't pick Marshall. Payne is 30 now, and I think Marshall has more potential than Cave. Just my thoughts on it, and Olding could well be another challenge. Hopefully so.

Just as an add, when I say that some seem to forget what Marshall has brought to the table in the past, I'm not talking about anyone here. In fact I'm not really talking about anyone in particular. Just a generalisation.

Someone on another forum claiming that Nucifora has blocked a number of NIQ contracts that Ulster have agreed.

Don Alfonso wrote:Someone on another forum claiming that Nucifora has blocked a number of NIQ contracts that Ulster have agreed.

We wouldn't want to curtail the development of Sean Reidy after all.

Yea saw that earlier...

BOD getting in on the discussion too, but he's smart enough not to talk about NIQs being blocked.

https://vimeo.com/148628876

Don Alfonso wrote:Someone on another forum claiming that Nucifora has blocked a number of NIQ contracts that Ulster have agreed.

They didn't mention names did they?
Nucifora really wants to take a long walk of a short pier, he's blocking quality players from coming to the provinces leaving us with either what we've got or signing players not much better than what we've got. This is not on Dave now freak off!!!!

Pete330v2 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Someone on another forum claiming that Nucifora has blocked a number of NIQ contracts that Ulster have agreed.

They didn't mention names did they?
Nucifora really wants to take a long walk of a short pier, he's blocking quality players from coming to the provinces leaving us with either what we've got or signing players not much better than what we've got. This is not on Dave now freak off!!!!

This has been in the pipeline for a number of years and way before Nucifera was hired - to do specifically this. Moore was blocked from joining Munster too.

Munster and Ulster specifically were warned 3-4 seasons ago about their under performing academies and that once their last batch of contracts expired they needed to replace high profile NIEs with home grown players and that across the board  the strategy was for more inter-provincial moves for players, a la NZ, and that the focus financially was to increase wages of IQ players to keep them in the country and reduce the wages spend on imports. This is part of the overall strategy not just for Ulster.

That's fine Rodders, but it' poorly thought out - or implemented, at least. How many promising youngster has Nucifora facilitated moving? Ulster needed backrows, Butler and Dougall are at Pau. Munster needs centres, Farrell is in Grenoble. His alternative to NIQs - talented youngsters moving about where cthey are needed - he is failing at.

Hence Sam Windsor, Bronson Ross, Peter Browne etc.

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Someone on another forum claiming that Nucifora has blocked a number of NIQ contracts that Ulster have agreed.

They didn't mention names did they?
Nucifora really wants to take a long walk of a short pier, he's blocking quality players from coming to the provinces leaving us with either what we've got or signing players not much better than what we've got. This is not on Dave now freak off!!!!

This has been in the pipeline for a number of years and way before Nucifera was hired - to do specifically this. Moore was blocked from joining Munster too.

Munster and Ulster specifically were warned 3-4 seasons ago about their under performing academies and that once their last batch of contracts expired they needed to replace high profile NIEs with home grown players and that across the board  the strategy was for more inter-provincial moves for players, a la NZ, and that the focus financially was to increase wages of IQ players to keep them in the country and reduce the wages spend on imports. This is part of the overall strategy not just for Ulster.

Yup, I know it's not just Ulster and I still think it's a flawed strategy IMO. It would work if we had a deeply talented pool of young players to choose from but we don't and until rugby union becomes the number one sport in Ireland we never will. I also know it was the policy before Nucifora but from what I've seen through the media he's being a little over zealous with his power of vito (not Victor ). The inter-provincial moves haven't really surfaced to any great extent with quality up and coming player seemingly content to wait their turn on the bench for their home province rather than move. We need the high profile names in the squads as much as we need to improve the talent coming through. Blocking these 'big names' is IMO detrimental to the provincial clubs' interests.

Well there are rumors about quite a bit of shuffling coming up between the provinces but I suppose he can't force people to go where they don't want to go.

According to someone on the other forum, Munster signing Moore was blocked and Ulster signing a forward was blocked, but not Vito.
If Nucifora/IRFU are now blocking top NIQ signings, then why allow Piutau? That makes no sense. So Nucifora, in his infinite wisdom, allows a big money signing in the backs, which we are hardly short of, and prevents a top backrow signing, which we are in desperate need of. If the forward he blocked was a backrow.
It also reflects badly on Ulster, or any of the Provinces, to go hunting for a big signing, agree terms with that big signing, and then be blocked from signing them. What sort of message does that send out?
It also doesn't make sense to block the big signings, and allow us to bring in some of the dross (no pun intended) that we have.
I don't know what the Provinces have been doing with the academies, but it does look like they needed a kick in the @rse. I'm just not convinced this is the way to do it. Better to threaten to withdraw funding, I think.

Craig Gilroy and Paddy Jackson, two of the best young talents Ulster have at their disposal, have played in a Heineken Cup Final. As have senior players like Henry, Cave, Tuohy, Best and Trimble.

That is not despite having the likes of Pienaar, Afoa and (especially) Muller on the team. It’s because they were there.

If Nucifora’s plan is to have lots of barely capable, completely un-noteworthy, imported IQ players help the provinces to go out in the pool stages, then he is doing a tremendous job. Ulster can’t sign a backrower, why? Because we need more IQ talent to step up? And bolster Ireland’s paltry back-row stocks of O’Brien, Heaslip, O’Mahony, Henry, Ruddock, TOD, Stander, Murphy, Conan? (And that’s not including Henderson in his best position.) Yet we can sign Piutau, because we have.. Rob Kearney and Zebo (kind of).

It will all come home to roost when the likes of McCloskey, van Der Flier, Olding, JOD, Healy (M.), and the Byrnes fold under pressure in the 6 Nations over the next four years, because they have never played in any really tough, high-pressure games other than Pro12 final.

Munchkin wrote:According to someone on the other forum, Munster signing Moore was blocked and Ulster signing a forward was blocked, but not Vito.
If Nucifora/IRFU are now blocking top NIQ signings, then why allow Piutau?

I agree that makes no sense - but wasn't the Piutau deal done pre Nucifera?

If not maybe its because with Kearney and Felix Jones there the IRFU felt fullback was covered and with Munster signing Chisolm that preventing signing another lock as per the rules and Ulster already have Williams in the backrow.